Help with a Crusader [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with a Crusader [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kellus
07-13-07, 04:45 AM I just got access to the Tome of Battle (finally!) and I love it. I'm planning a character right now, a Crusader, and I'm trying to figure out how to get a reasonable set of maneuvers. This character would be the first time anyone in my group sees a Martial Adept, and I don't want to frighten anyone by being super-unstoppable or anything like that. Right now I'm thinking a build which is focused mostly on the White Raven school, but with some Devoted Spirit for healing. I'd probably be a combination between front-line fighter, tactical support, and healing in the group, although there will probably be a cleric or druid as well.

I planned out a possible progression for maneuvers, but this is my first time using a Martial Adept and I figured I'd get some advice from pros. So, any feedback on whether this is plausible, horrible, or anything else would be great.

(Level: Maneuver chosen)
1: Crusader's Strike [Devo 1]
1: Vanguard Strike [Devo 1]
1: Douse the Flames [White 1]
1: Leading the Attack [White 1]
1: Stone Bones [Stone 1]
1: Martial Spirit (stance) [Devo 1]
2: Bolstering Voice (stance) [White 1]
3: Tactical Strike [White 2]
5: White Raven Tactics [White 3]
6 (feat): Revitalizing Strike [Devo 3]
7: Covering Strike [White 4]
8: Tactics of the Wolf (stance) [White 3]
9: Flanking Maneuver [White 5]
11: Rallying Strike [Devo 6]
13: Swarming Assault [White 7]
14: Aura of Triumph (stance) [Devo 6]
15 (feat): Swarm Tactics [White 8]
15: White Raven Hammer [White 8]
17: War Master's Charge [White 9]
19: Strike of Righteous Vitality [Devo 9]

Obviously, I'm taking Martial Study and Martial Stance at 6th and 15th levels.

Any suggestions?
Matthew77
07-13-07, 11:00 AM Looks okay to me.

Its hard to go wrong with a crusader, because their selections of disciplines are pretty limited. Heres a few comments:

Have a chat with your DM before taking White Raven Tactics. Make sure he knows and understands how you are going to use it, and is okay with that. Of all the maneuvers, this one is most likely to make a DM hate the ToB. I usually just avoid taking it.

I assume you are taking Extra Granted Maneuver? It really is a major help for Crusaders.

Personally, I don't think Martial Study to get another maneuver is worth it. It doesn't add to your maneuvers readied, so you are really just replacing a lower-level maneuver, instead of gaining one. Usually I only use it to gain a maneuver outside my allowed disciplines. Some of the nice tiger claw maneuvers don't have pre-reqs.

I really like Battle Leader's Charge. The +10 damage is nice, but what really helps is avoiding the AoO for movement during your charge. I've used this many times to get inside the reach of an enemy that's bigger than me.

Covering Strike doesn't impress me much, but I've never actually used it in a game. I think that there are enough ways for flankers and spellcasters to avoid AoO, that it wouldn't make much difference. As a level 4 maneuver, I would much prefer Divine Surge.

Last general comment.. lots of your maneuvers and stances help your party when flanking, or help them get into flanking position. Do you have some secondary fighters in the party like Rogues or TWF meleers to flank with you? If you are more likely to be alone on the front lines, you would be better off with more defensive Stone Dragon maneuvers.
UncleScrewtape
07-13-07, 02:28 PM I'll second the need for Divine Surge, it's by far one of the best pure damage strikes in the book, and at only level 7-8.

I'd also make it a point to take either Foehammer or Mountain Hammer (from Stone Dragon) so as to be able to defeat any DR. That's good to have.
windscar18
07-13-07, 04:57 PM You forget that you can "forget" maneuvers at level 4 or further. Thus, instead of wasting a feat on Revitalizing Strike, you can just forget something like Vanguard Strike or Crusader's Strike, which is something that you'll never ready at that point in the game anyway.

Since maneuvers of level 3 or lower tend to only have only 1 prerequisite (stances also count for prerequisites), this is a huge boon to keeping up higher level maneuvers. And, keep an eye out for maneuvers that have NO prerequisites (such as some of the Stone Dragon maneuvers.
navar100
07-14-07, 12:02 PM Covering Strike is awesome! For three rounds the bad guy can't take AoOs. That is a very important tactical maneuver. Drink potions. Move through threatened areas. Cast touch attack spells. Read scrolls.

Just think of all the things you want to do but have to suffer an AoO or you decide not to do because you don't want to suffer an AoO. With Covering Strike that all goes away.

It's a boost, so you can use other maneuvers. Consider a monster with reach. You use a White Raven charge to reach him without provoking an AoO. However, you boosted yourself first with Covering Strike. When you hit, now all of your other party members can move up to the monster through its reach without suffering an AoO for three rounds.

As a Crusader, you probably want readied 1 healing maneuver, 1 charge maneuver, 1 damage maneuver, 1 help someone else maneuver, and 1 defensive maneuver. Mix and match to suit to taste if you prefer a more specialized focus. Covering Strike is a help someone else maneuver that you can benefit with as well.

Divine Surge is good, but there are decent damage dealing maneuvers before it at earlier levels. Divine Surge can wait until 8th level to trade an obsolete maneuver for it.
Matthew77
07-14-07, 09:56 PM It's a boost, so you can use other maneuvers.

I didn't even notice that Covering strike was a boost. I saw the word "strike" and just assumed it was a standard action.

Hmm.. that makes me like it more. I'm still not sure I would ready it as my only 4th level maneuver though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kellus 07-13-07, 04:45 AM	I just got access to the Tome of Battle (finally!) and I love it. I'm planning a character right now, a Crusader, and I'm trying to figure out how to get a reasonable set of maneuvers. This character would be the first time anyone in my group sees a Martial Adept, and I don't want to frighten anyone by being super-unstoppable or anything like that. Right now I'm thinking a build which is focused mostly on the White Raven school, but with some Devoted Spirit for healing. I'd probably be a combination between front-line fighter, tactical support, and healing in the group, although there will probably be a cleric or druid as well. I planned out a possible progression for maneuvers, but this is my first time using a Martial Adept and I figured I'd get some advice from pros. So, any feedback on whether this is plausible, horrible, or anything else would be great. (Level: Maneuver chosen) 1: Crusader's Strike [Devo 1] 1: Vanguard Strike [Devo 1] 1: Douse the Flames [White 1] 1: Leading the Attack [White 1] 1: Stone Bones [Stone 1] 1: Martial Spirit (stance) [Devo 1] 2: Bolstering Voice (stance) [White 1] 3: Tactical Strike [White 2] 5: White Raven Tactics [White 3] 6 (feat): Revitalizing Strike [Devo 3] 7: Covering Strike [White 4] 8: Tactics of the Wolf (stance) [White 3] 9: Flanking Maneuver [White 5] 11: Rallying Strike [Devo 6] 13: Swarming Assault [White 7] 14: Aura of Triumph (stance) [Devo 6] 15 (feat): Swarm Tactics [White 8] 15: White Raven Hammer [White 8] 17: War Master's Charge [White 9] 19: Strike of Righteous Vitality [Devo 9] Obviously, I'm taking Martial Study and Martial Stance at 6th and 15th levels. Any suggestions?
Matthew77 07-13-07, 11:00 AM	Looks okay to me. Its hard to go wrong with a crusader, because their selections of disciplines are pretty limited. Heres a few comments: Have a chat with your DM before taking White Raven Tactics. Make sure he knows and understands how you are going to use it, and is okay with that. Of all the maneuvers, this one is most likely to make a DM hate the ToB. I usually just avoid taking it. I assume you are taking Extra Granted Maneuver? It really is a major help for Crusaders. Personally, I don't think Martial Study to get another maneuver is worth it. It doesn't add to your maneuvers readied, so you are really just replacing a lower-level maneuver, instead of gaining one. Usually I only use it to gain a maneuver outside my allowed disciplines. Some of the nice tiger claw maneuvers don't have pre-reqs. I really like Battle Leader's Charge. The +10 damage is nice, but what really helps is avoiding the AoO for movement during your charge. I've used this many times to get inside the reach of an enemy that's bigger than me. Covering Strike doesn't impress me much, but I've never actually used it in a game. I think that there are enough ways for flankers and spellcasters to avoid AoO, that it wouldn't make much difference. As a level 4 maneuver, I would much prefer Divine Surge. Last general comment.. lots of your maneuvers and stances help your party when flanking, or help them get into flanking position. Do you have some secondary fighters in the party like Rogues or TWF meleers to flank with you? If you are more likely to be alone on the front lines, you would be better off with more defensive Stone Dragon maneuvers.
UncleScrewtape 07-13-07, 02:28 PM	I'll second the need for Divine Surge, it's by far one of the best pure damage strikes in the book, and at only level 7-8. I'd also make it a point to take either Foehammer or Mountain Hammer (from Stone Dragon) so as to be able to defeat any DR. That's good to have.
windscar18 07-13-07, 04:57 PM	You forget that you can "forget" maneuvers at level 4 or further. Thus, instead of wasting a feat on Revitalizing Strike, you can just forget something like Vanguard Strike or Crusader's Strike, which is something that you'll never ready at that point in the game anyway. Since maneuvers of level 3 or lower tend to only have only 1 prerequisite (stances also count for prerequisites), this is a huge boon to keeping up higher level maneuvers. And, keep an eye out for maneuvers that have NO prerequisites (such as some of the Stone Dragon maneuvers.
navar100 07-14-07, 12:02 PM	Covering Strike is awesome! For three rounds the bad guy can't take AoOs. That is a very important tactical maneuver. Drink potions. Move through threatened areas. Cast touch attack spells. Read scrolls. Just think of all the things you want to do but have to suffer an AoO or you decide not to do because you don't want to suffer an AoO. With Covering Strike that all goes away. It's a boost, so you can use other maneuvers. Consider a monster with reach. You use a White Raven charge to reach him without provoking an AoO. However, you boosted yourself first with Covering Strike. When you hit, now all of your other party members can move up to the monster through its reach without suffering an AoO for three rounds. As a Crusader, you probably want readied 1 healing maneuver, 1 charge maneuver, 1 damage maneuver, 1 help someone else maneuver, and 1 defensive maneuver. Mix and match to suit to taste if you prefer a more specialized focus. Covering Strike is a help someone else maneuver that you can benefit with as well. Divine Surge is good, but there are decent damage dealing maneuvers before it at earlier levels. Divine Surge can wait until 8th level to trade an obsolete maneuver for it.
Matthew77 07-14-07, 09:56 PM	It's a boost, so you can use other maneuvers. I didn't even notice that Covering strike was a boost. I saw the word "strike" and just assumed it was a standard action. Hmm.. that makes me like it more. I'm still not sure I would ready it as my only 4th level maneuver though.