Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Voldar_Mecorthio 02-13-07, 11:46 AM	This thread and all conversations attached to it are over. No more posting allowed. If you do post, I will shoot a missle at your house from my satelite.
Grod_The_Giant 02-13-07, 11:53 AM	show him your backstory?
Keiichi_m 02-13-07, 11:59 AM	Well, if he freaks out without warning without listening to your argument the best thing to do is wait a couple sessions playing this teifling of yours, then go back and talk to him, if you are doing it to optimise then shame on you. If not tell him that you'd still like to play him baised not on power but on character idea and see if he's a little calmer about it now with you already playing a different character and after he's had time to calm down. That or violance. Also, half illithids are imposible, if your DM will go for bending the illithid rules: cool. Illithids are however born as larva and when they mature they get stuffed in a humanoids head (theres actually a list of which humaniods it works with and in which the larva can't survive) through it's ear, and it eats their brain and replaces that and then grows outward to make the face. (Illithids are my favorite monsters, save maybe for nightwalkers. I studied up on them.)
Voldar_Mecorthio 02-13-07, 12:12 PM	Half-Ilithid is a template in Underdark. In Lords of Madness it specifically says that if a larva is put into a human it makes a true illithid, if anything else it makes a half-ilithid (that). Thus, the only impossable half-ilithid is a h-i human.
Some_call_me_Tim 02-13-07, 12:27 PM	I was recently going to play a new game with a friend of mine as DM. He asked us what kind of characters we wanted to play. I wanted to play a psionist, not having played one in quite a while, and as I like unusual races, I decided to be a half-illitid elan. I figure that because he has two seperate psionic races as ancestors, my guy sees himself as even more superior than normal illitids feel, above even the elders of his city, so he was cast out. When my DM saw this idea, he freaked out. Without even listening to a word I said he accused me of being an optomizer, saying that I only wanted this so I could be powerful. He then said that he always made choices for his characters based on what he wanted the character to be, not to make his character more powerful. He then went on a rant about how he hated optomizers, and probibly continued but I stopped listening. This guy has also had similar freak outs when I wanted to play a warblade, denouncing them as overpowered and yelling that unlimited use of manuvers per day was overpowered. He put a restriction on recovering manuvers, so I could only recover used manuvers 3+int modifier per day times. I later convinced him to get rid of this, but he still thinks ToB is overpowered. I decided to play a tiefling assassin in this game instead, but it still bugs me that he freaks out when I try to make a character that doesn't suck. Does anyone have any ideas? (I still want to play that illithid psion BTW, maybe if my assassin dies)I can see both sides of the story here. I have to ask which came first the back-story or the character build? I ask because anyone can write a back-story to justify any build they want. As a DM I would actually be more concerned about your character's viewing "himself as even more superior than normal illitids feel" as a potential source of intra-party friction than thinking 'broken' build. I also see that you keep referring to 'optimizier' as opposed to 'munchkin.' I imagine that your "stupid DM" used the later or some other variation. This gives a little insight into your view of the build as opposed to your DM. You say "character that doesn't suck;" your DM probably thinks 'munchkin.' That is root of the problem. What are the other characters in the game like? optimized or do they suck? If he is just picking on your characters that is a problem, but if your characters are 'optimized' to the point that other players aren't having fun then he is right to limit you. Too bad you "stopped listening" you might have learned why he hated 'optimizers.' It seems to me that the two of you want to play different games. That's fine as there is no one right way to play D&D. However, you need to find out what issues your DM has with 'optimized' characters. Then either convince him that your build won't present those problems or agree on happy medium. If you can't agree then one of you needs to find a different group that plays the game you want to play.
High Octane 02-13-07, 01:04 PM	Next time ask your DM what is allowed BEFORE making the character. Just in case hes an uptight jackass like me.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-13-07, 01:30 PM	Are you playing in Faruin? In the underdark? You realise that Ilithilids are hideouse monsters hated by, well everything that isn'y another ithilid. And even they don't like each toher. Gotta tell yaa though that I wouldn't allow your built either. Although with me a simple 'no' suffices. i also must agree that the idea of a half ilithilid doesn't sit well with me thematically. It does state claerly that in the lords of madeness that ilithilids are raised in a pool and then stuffed in a creatures ears were the ilithilid eats its brain and then matures into the monster. This prosess woks well on all the PHB races, and most humaniod monsters races as well. Given that Elans are very close to humans, I would rule that the process for creating ilithids works just as well on them as it does huamns. Also half-ilithilids (the only instance of such that comes to mind is ilithilid ropers) are freaks of ilithilid society, and banished to the out skirts of scoiety. I don't really see the half-ilithilid with a superoirity conplex as either viable or likely.
johnkretzer 02-13-07, 02:14 PM	I got to say I would balk at this concept also. Though you would need a really strong back story on to how it came to be. But even I who probably will allow most things can't fault your DM on vetoing this concept.
Ilthorin 02-13-07, 02:48 PM	Count yourself lucky. I would have torn the character sheet up on you. Half-illithid. pish. I suppose next you'll want the assasin to be a good vampire? Seriously though. It's always a good idea to ask the DM ahead of time what is allowed. If the DM wants to run a typical storyline that sort of creature is supposed to be what the party is killing. Not adventuring with. As for the superiority complex. I have yet to see that played well. We have a gold elf in our current party that is close to roleplaying himself out of the adventure because of it.
RobbyPants 02-13-07, 03:01 PM	I'm curious as to what this DM considers overpowered. The OP quoted the DM as using the word "optimizer" quite negatively. I wonder if the DM would consider an orc (not half orc) barbarian with Power Attack and Leap Attack (or whatever the name of that feat from CAdv is) "optimized." A tiefling assassin seems hardly optimized to me (although it could still be a lot of fun to play). I can see both sides of the story here. Personally I don't like the idea of half-illithids, but the OP sais that they're in that Underdark book. If the DM doesn't like the idea of them, then I guess that would end the discussion right there. The one thing that makes me side with the OP is how the DM attacks him for "optimizing" his PC. I'd suggest a calm, one-on-one chat with the DM, with each of you explaining your points. In the end, the ruling might be the same, but hopefully, both DM and player alike will have a little more understanding and respect for eachother's point of view. More often than not, good communication is the (a) key to a happier game. Good luck! :D
FntsyWlkr 02-13-07, 03:17 PM	"that doesn't suck" "stupid DM" Hmp. I wouldn't allow it either. You two are at odds. It's subjective.
Bruunwald 02-13-07, 03:33 PM	I want to distill the OP to its essence, and see if we want to go from there. Basically, you think that anything passing normal "sucks." And in order not to be stuck with something that "sucks," you like to create wildly complicated and uber-powerful builds. Meanwhile, your DM is a whackjob who freaks out at the first hint of a powerful or unusual build. He is freaking out now. He has freaked out in the past. You are sure he is going to freak out again. When he freaks out, he rants so long and hard that you finally are forced to tune him out. Now, you want us to tell you how to you should approach causing him to freak out again about another of your fantastically overwrought builds? Okay, here's how: Don't. "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 02-13-07, 03:45 PM	Optimizer? Well, that's ok as long as it's not munchkin. If you distinguish between the two. That said, a half-illithid elan is by NO MEANS optimized. Remind him of that little thing known as level adjustment. You're a manifester (remind him how that's equivalent to a caster). With less HD => HP. Poorer saves. And have behind-the-curve manifesting abillity. In response you have better INT. Which gives more PP, but compare it to the levels of psion you could have had. Sure, your save DCs will be better, but you won't be able to augment as much. Point out that it's not optimized. The mantra of optimizers is don't give up caster/manifester levels.
SneakyPetey 02-13-07, 04:44 PM	"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." People who quote Emerson are always right! :D And this case is no exception! OP: If you wish to continue gaming with this DM, stop calling him "stupid." He is operating within his rights to limit character builds within the parameters of his campaign. In your defense, he should communicate allowable builds before his players run off and freak him out with their "optimized" characters. However, if you know these things set him off, why would you continue to create them? I believe I can sum up my point in a less-auspicious quote from The Monkeys: "It's a little bit you and a little bit me." You and your DM just need to get on the same page and work on some healthy communication before one or both of you go postal at the gaming table! :P I hope this helps! Have good gaming! :D
Reversefigure4 02-13-07, 09:19 PM	I don't think it's an uber-munched build. But the fact that it's a squid that feasts on the brains of the living might render it unsuitable for entry into many adventuring parties and stories.
Voldar_Mecorthio 02-13-07, 11:14 PM	You guys do realize that half illithid is a valid template in Underdark? and my guy was going to max Bluff and Disguise, invest in illusion-esq powers, and take the Thrallherd PrC, so he would mainly work through his cohort and when he did go into civilization he would be heavily disguised, with magic and skill use.
Voldar_Mecorthio 02-13-07, 11:17 PM	My DM liked the idea until he saw that it wasn't true illithid, but was half illithid elan. Then he freaked out.
Elemental_Elf 02-14-07, 12:01 AM	I wouldn't allow this. Then again, I tend to restrict a great many things. How can you call your DM 'Stupid?' That's rather mean, esspecially for what amounts to talking behind his back. Anyways, you have a few options: Find a New Group Become the DM Find another player who is willing to DM and allow your crazy builds Live with the limitations set forth by your DM and work with in the system. Those are your options. Life sucks sometimes. So either step up, leave or deal with it. It's harsh, rude and crude; unfortunately that's the curve ball life sent ya. :whatsthis
Salla 02-14-07, 12:18 AM	My DM liked the idea until he saw that it wasn't true illithid, but was half illithid elan. Then he freaked out. Here's a thought ... many players and DMs have misread the rules on how the Elan racial abilities work. What he may not realize is that the 'spend PP to resist damage' ability is an immediate action, and therefore only operates against a single attack per round. The two of you should definitely sit down and hash out *exactly* what the problems are. It may be just be a misunderstanding.
kelvinaw273 02-14-07, 02:10 PM	I was recently going to play a new game with a friend of mine as DM. He asked us what kind of characters we wanted to play. I wanted to play a psionist, not having played one in quite a while, and as I like unusual races, I decided to be a half-illitid elan. I figure that because he has two seperate psionic races as ancestors, my guy sees himself as even more superior than normal illitids feel, above even the elders of his city, so he was cast out. Hold it right there! Illithids are created by taking a larva and introducing it to the brain of a humanoid, whereupon they eat out the brain and 'inhabbit' the body, making some changes. They do not reproduce sexually in any way. Elans are made by a process applied to a normal human that can then sustain itself by psionic means. As a race they do not reproduce sexually either. If a player cam to me and asked to play a crossbreed between two races that cannot breed, let alone cross-breed, I'd freak! Anyway a character this arrogant would hardly make a good party member.
Morwen 02-14-07, 02:26 PM	The argument isn't the reproductive possibility of Elans and Illithids, it's the supposed overpoweredness of the character. Personally, I don't see how any LA +5 (!!) template could be even remotely overpowered, especially on a manifester or spellcaster. Perhaps your DM didn't know about the high level adjustment? The template also says "always evil", so unless your DM allows evil PCs, that would be a reason to disallow it.
DrakePD 02-14-07, 02:28 PM	I would say to surprise him with your next character and play a Human Fighter.:D
zzakk2to2 02-14-07, 04:02 PM	Definetly a human fighter. also see what he thinks of gestault because a human fighter/werebear can rock when you get to the bear HD which by the end gets a total of +16 strength along with being large when you are in hybrid and bear form.
WizO_Cat 02-14-07, 11:34 PM	Keep the discussion matter on the topic of the thread and not other guests. Thank you.
Vaelan 02-14-07, 11:37 PM	Remember the CoC? It says you're not supposed to make comments, derogatory or otherwise, about your fellow posters. Feel free to find a new messageboard to flame people on if you can't follow this simple rule. Voldar, the fact is, your DM is an idiot. Either find a way to deal with your DM automatically assuming the worst about you or find a new game.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-14-07, 11:38 PM	What level are you starting at?
FntsyWlkr 02-15-07, 01:02 PM	Remember the CoC? It says you're not supposed to make comments, derogatory or otherwise, about your fellow posters. Feel free to find a new messageboard to flame people on if you can't follow this simple rule. Voldar, the fact is, your DM is an idiot. LOL!! ... I guess this doesn't count, 'cause the DM isn't a poster! :)
crowclub 02-15-07, 02:51 PM	I think there are some DM's out there that have a God complex, especially the older DM's that are stuck in their ways. Unfortunately, not all DM's read these boards and some still think Fighters are a strong class (I can think one at least one),....this has the knock on effect of causing all sorts of arguments when new, better balanced, melee classes are printed. My experience was having Light Armour Prof. being taken away from a Swordsage because it was too strong, in fact the DM said that all three classes in ToB would have to have their Armour Prof. dropped one level if he was to allow them in his game (a game where the Wizard was allowed to use Sudden Quicken Feat effects at level 2 --he was using meta-magic feats on a times-per-day basis without any Prereq.'s ! totally unbalanced madness.)
Dunsel 02-15-07, 03:30 PM	DMs are people too! The fact is, if a DM doesn't like a player's character idea he has the right to deny it. If you don't like the DM's restrictions, I suggest you go shopping for another DM. Incidentally, I would not allow any PC Illithids in my campaign...unless the whole party were mind flayers.
Voldar_Mecorthio 02-15-07, 04:55 PM	I changed the title so it's not flamey, and just for effect, he thinks that Fighter is one of the strongest classes in the game. I almost died laughing, but he was serious. We play wierd races most of the time, and I can't even remember that last time ANYONE played a good character. I mostly play neutral and he plays evil 100%. The other two members of the group's characters have no personality and just live to fight, (the players like H&S), so we make them true neutral.
snakeman830 02-15-07, 05:05 PM	Don't forget the level adjustment that comes with the race. This makes your character all the weaker in comparison to others as far as B.A.B., saves, class features, skill points, feats, HD, hit points, ability score increases, etc. go. Granted, he has his own unique abilities to make up for some of it, but they end up tapering off in importance as you advance in level (great example of this is any winged PC. The wings mean a hell of a lot more at lower levels than they do at higher when you can easily fly magically). I don't penalize my players for finding a great race-class combination so long as the power level is nearly equivalent to the rest of the party (yet strangely, there is one guy in my group that insists on being an elf all the time and puts himself at an equal class level to everyone else). There's the main thing. What level are you planing on making this guy, and what level(s) are the rest of the party? A possible argument from he DM is that his adventures will have to be radically altered to provide you with a challenge due to your unique powers. While this may not sound like much, it may overwhelm the rest of the party as they are trying to accomplish the same things wih other methods.
Voldar_Mecorthio 02-15-07, 06:32 PM	Keep in mind that the DM liked the idea until I told him that it wasn't a full illithid, but a half illithid elan. Then he freaked out.
Cold Napalm 02-15-07, 11:33 PM	Umm so what EXACTLY did he find so broken about the half mind flayer elan over the mind flayer anyways? We have asked for details and since your not giving them to us, it makes it seem MORE likely that the DM's opinion of you being a muchkin is true.
Gemmalah 02-16-07, 12:20 PM	well if you really want to play this character concept perhaps you and your dm could figure out a way to take away someof the powers the creature has naturally so then the power level is equal to the rest of the party. perhaps to stick with the story have something flashy but not do much damage, or work out a way you can take levels to get the powers so you start at the same EL than everyone else. i believe theres one to turn into a half dragon and this negates most problems with high EL. So it could be possible to apply it to other creatures. this balances it out as you sacrifice several levels for class levels. so even if you do get uber powers you spellcasting abilites will be way behind everyone else.
Bruunwald 02-16-07, 12:27 PM	You guys do realize that half illithid is a valid template in Underdark? and my guy was going to max Bluff and Disguise, invest in illusion-esq powers, and take the Thrallherd PrC, so he would mainly work through his cohort and when he did go into civilization he would be heavily disguised, with magic and skill use. But do you realize that this is not the real issue? Your issue is not one of convincing us that your build is legal. Your issue is that your DM doesn't like this sort of thing. You can't ask us to give you advice on changing his mind. You ought not to approach him with these things in the first place, given your history with him and your opinion of him. What you should do is locate a DM who appreciates your builds, or stay within the parameters laid out by this DM.
LivingShadow 02-16-07, 04:02 PM	You could change the build to be just standard Illithid and still keep the personality the same. You can still suck out brains but you lose the elan's traits. If you still want those traits find a power that gives you DR and that takes over resilience, get cloak of resistance to substitute for the resistance quality, and get a ring of sustinence.
DaidojiTaidoru 02-16-07, 04:44 PM	I suggest you play something weak and simple. Like a druid. Druids are weak. Right?...
Voldar_Mecorthio 02-16-07, 04:53 PM	I don't really mind playing a straight illithid, I was just kind of irritated that he would freak out about something so simple.
Voldar_Mecorthio 02-16-07, 04:54 PM	I considered playing something completely game breaking, but I kind of thought "why bother?"
Totentanz 02-16-07, 05:03 PM	DM's are all-powerful IC, but not OC. The OP has every right to request the DM consider his character idea with a full knowledge of the mechanics involved. It would appear most of the posters are operating out of two knee-jerk reactions. First, that Half-Illithids don't exist; second, that the build in question would be powerful merely because it involves something other than a PHB race. The LA is going to kill his ML, it's not broken at all. Sounds like you would be playing your thrall more than your PC. That would be inappropriate for most campaigns, but it might work in this one. Hmm... Does he just dislike psionics? That is another common knee-jerk reaction. Find out if he dislikes the system as is. Then establish whether he ever bothered to read the XPH. Plenty of people (including me) remember the bad old days of 2nd Ed. psionics. That system was, to put it bluntly, utterly broken. If he dislikes psionics, it might take a miracle to change his mind. If the issue is the template, show it to him. Explain that your psionic abilities would actually suffer. If that doesn't work, consider running a campaign yourself, short-term, for this DM and his friends. Have them all play psionic characters. After a few sessions, they should get the idea that the system isn't broken, just different. Unfortunately, it sounds like your DM lacks mechanical aptitude where the game is concerned. If he sat down to crunch numbers, he would KNOW that the fighter is sorely under-powered by mid-game. If he crunched numbers, he would KNOW that at high levels TOB characters actually contribute to combat, but don't outshine the casters at all. Many people who play DnD cling to notions they have held since previous editions. Alternately, they form a belief system about the game born from a 1st reading, rather than in-play experience. You might, with a great deal of diplomacy and patience, expand your DM's horizons enough that he can see the great vistas of roleplaying to be had outside his small little world. Then again, you might have to run your own campaign and clobber his TWF character with a Fullblade-wielding Frenzied Berserker to get it through his head that he might be wrong. Good Luck.
Voldar_Mecorthio 02-16-07, 07:41 PM	He's fine with psionics. He's fine with illithids. He's just paranoid when anyone tries to do anything that he thinks is powerful. I did not set out to min/max this character; if I did there's no chance I would play a LA race with a caster class. I tried to tell him this, but he just got hung up on the fact that I combined two psionic races (even though half illithid makes me WEAKER) that he flat out refused to listen to anything I said. He's one of those people who thinks that min/maxing in any form is worthy of beheading.
Bopple 02-16-07, 08:56 PM	How can you make a half-illithid character? There is no Level Adjustment entry in the half-illithid description.
Voldar_Mecorthio 02-16-07, 09:06 PM	Yes there is. It's +3.
Bopple 02-16-07, 09:10 PM	All I see is Challenge Rating +3. Challenge Rating != Level Adjustment.
Cael 02-16-07, 10:16 PM	I changed the title so it's not flamey, and just for effect, he thinks that Fighter is one of the strongest classes in the game. I almost died laughing, but he was serious. We play wierd races most of the time, and I can't even remember that last time ANYONE played a good character. I mostly play neutral and he plays evil 100%. The other two members of the group's characters have no personality and just live to fight, (the players like H&S), so we make them true neutral. Hmm... That sounds so much like one of my ex-groups: Me: I'd like to make a Fighter/Psion DM1: OK, but you will have to take 2 levels of Fighter. Otherwise, you're munchkin-ing. Me: Can I play a Mystic Theurge? DM1: What? That is so f-ing broken! That is the most broken PrC in the game! Advancing as both a Wizard and a Cleric, that is 2 for the price of 1! What are you, a munchkin? Me: Hmm... I read that you can use a GSword and TWF with armour spikes. DM1: That is so munchkin... (two days later) I have a guy that use a GSword and TWF with armour spikes. Me: Dang, the Chain Tripper is a pain in the bum. DM1: (next campaign) I am making this Bard with 18 Str and 13 Cha that will get 2 levels of Fighter and 1 of Barb, with a Spiked Chain... DM2: You guys meet *insert very disgusting creature in the act of very disgustingly torturing, raping and generally creating mayhem on a village's female population* Me: That's sick! You can't do that! DM2: It is legal. Says so in the Book of Vile Darkness. Me: We are playing Epic in Faerun, right? OK. I'll play an Arcane Heirophant of Mielliki. DM3: OK (later) How come you are wearing a Chain Shirt? Isn't that against the rules? Me: No. The PGtF says that Druids of Meilliki can wear any armour Rangers can, including metal ones. DM3: Munchkin! And that, my friends, is why that group is an EX-group.
Morwen 02-17-07, 05:21 PM	Yes there is. It's +3. It's not +3. The Level Adjustment is +5, as listed in the Fiend Folio. The 3.5 updated version (in Underdark) does not list an LA at all.
ravenshrike 02-19-07, 12:59 PM	I considered playing something completely game breaking, but I kind of thought "why bother?" Play a druid w/o natural spell. Take extra wild shape and pwn face as a completely unoptimized one instead.
locksmyth 02-19-07, 02:50 PM	I was recently going to play a new game with a friend of mine as DM.Don't play his game. You don't have too. Find some one else to DM or offer to DM yourself.
ElberethSilverleaf 02-22-07, 12:52 AM	Elans are made not born, but are only made from humans. I got this info about mind flayers off of wiki... Illithids are hermaphroditic creatures who each spawn a mass of larvae twice in their life. The larvae resemble miniature illithid heads or four-tentacled tadpoles. Larvae are left to develop in the pool of the Elder Brain. The ones that survive are inserted into the brain of a sentient creature. A human gives best results. Upon being implanted, the larva then grows and consumes the host's brain, absorbing the host's physical form entirely and becoming sentient itself, a mature Illithid. This process is called Ceremorphosis. Illithids often experiment with non-human hosts, but ceremorphosis involving other creatures usually fails, killing both host and larva. When a human is implanted with an illithid larvae the result is another illithid. According to Expanded Psionics, Elans only reproduce psionically thru a psionic ritual only Elan know. It also says "Nonhuman elans are never created and it could be that the ritual simply doesn't work for any creatures but those who were originally human." Please explain the mechanism that creates a 1/2 elan - 1/2 illithid. I would never allow this build either.
zzakk2to2 02-22-07, 09:15 AM	1.You have an elan thats like a human. 2.Implant larva into elans brain 3.you now have the half-illithid elan or the half-elan illithid:D
Senevri 02-22-07, 01:23 PM	Half illithid... silliness. Can you play a plain Elan Psion? but he still thinks ToB is overpowered. Clearly, nobody's played a full caster properly in your games.
Cold Napalm 02-22-07, 05:51 PM	Okay so you either have to use the fiend folio one with +5 LA and not the underdark one. ANY entries which does not list a LA adjustment is NOT OPEN TO PC. I think losing 5 manafest levels is harsh enough but getting a underdark half illithid template for 3 IS broken. No wonder your DM said hell no. Quite frankly if a player of mine tried to pull a see it's only +3 CR so it's only +3 LA will get a hell no from me.
Voldar_Mecorthio 02-22-07, 09:17 PM	...Explain how a few 1/day spell like abilities that could EASILY be replicated with the lost manifestor levels for +3 is "broken". Some so-so ability score boosts and the abillity to extract brains (which requires a grapel, usually lethal to spellcasters) is worth more than +3?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-22-07, 09:44 PM	Okay so you either have to use the fiend folio one with +5 LA Which cannot be applied to Aberrations, and thus would be illegal.
ElberethSilverleaf 02-23-07, 04:05 AM	If you're using the logic that the 1/2 illithid template could be used on a human because elans are basically modified humans, read the Fiend Folio. It says that the illithid larvae eats all of the host body's brain except the lower brain stem, destroying all remnants of the hosts personality and spirit, leaving only the physical body alive and ready for habitation. According to Expanded Psi Handbook elans are humans who have undergone a psionic, not physical transformation. It's very logical and quite simple, you put an illithid larvae in an elan and you completely destroy the part that makes it an elan. You don't get a 1/2 illithid, you get another illithid...
LittleCarp04 02-23-07, 03:10 PM	I think someone already pointed Elans are not Humanoids, they are Abberations.
Cold Napalm 02-23-07, 05:40 PM	...Explain how a few 1/day spell like abilities that could EASILY be replicated with the lost manifestor levels for +3 is "broken". Some so-so ability score boosts and the abillity to extract brains (which requires a grapel, usually lethal to spellcasters) is worth more than +3? Because it IS. Because you can use those abilities OUTSIDE combat. Because LA is more then just combat prowess where as CR is just about combat. I'm sorry, but I'm getting a clearer picture now and I'm quite frankly starting to side with the DM and you are a munchkin if you think the template is only worth 3 LA. Oh and I missed the elans are abberant part...opps.
Kanosint 02-28-07, 10:59 PM	Hmmm, even though I'd never allow anything with LA over +2 (have to allow that because of a certain appendix in SS), I do agree that optimazation is NOT munchkinism and thus far from "AAAAH! EEEVIIIIL!" like your DM thinks, and I also agree that with a +5 LA, it's so bad my granny could manifest better. So mechanically, nothing wrong, really. Flavour-wise? Hmmm, well, not suitable in my campaigns.
Olskool 03-01-07, 05:20 PM	Time to bring this out again: A note to DMs: If your players whines about not getting to use certain material, that's a sign that the concept is important to him (he really wants to play it). In this case, you should reconsider your decision and try to work with him. Actually, if your player whines about not getting to use certain material, it just means they're a whiner. Dismiss their opinions at will. They'll whine no matter what you do.
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-01-07, 05:54 PM	Actually, if your player whines about not getting to use certain material, it just means they're a whiner. Dismiss their opinions at will. They'll whine no matter what you do. I was getting to that (/lie). If they're always whining, then do what Olskool suggested.
Cold Napalm 03-01-07, 09:56 PM	Hmmm, even though I'd never allow anything with LA over +2 (have to allow that because of a certain appendix in SS), I do agree that optimazation is NOT munchkinism and thus far from "AAAAH! EEEVIIIIL!" like your DM thinks, and I also agree that with a +5 LA, it's so bad my granny could manifest better. So mechanically, nothing wrong, really. Flavour-wise? Hmmm, well, not suitable in my campaigns. No the problem is that he is wants to apply a template that is not available to players (no LA given) because the +5 LA version can't be applied to elans as they are abberants. In addition to this he does not want to pay +5 LA but +3 because that is the CR modification. I'm sorry but if a player of mine pulled that on me, I'd be ranting that he is a munchkin. He's not an optimizer since he's basically BREAKING the rules.
jeffseadot 03-02-07, 12:24 AM	I think the answer to all of these problems can be summed up with one word: Communication. Talk to your DM. Allow him to talk back. Express what you as a player want to do and accomplish in the campaign, and if anything seems like it would be sketchy, be prepared to back it up with either logic, rules taken directly from books, or both. DMs, I've found, tend to be very reasonable if you can make a good case and keep a calm head. It's also important for players to remember that the DM does have the final say in all matters of character creation, and with good cause. The DM is the person that has to do the bulk of the work, and if it would be too overwhelming for him to deal with a highly complex or contrived character then he absolutely should disallow it. Just because he's not a player character doesn't mean he's not a player. He has a right to have a good time as much as anybody else. Finally, it's unrealistic for any person involved in a campaign to get his or her way 100% of the time and still expect everyone to stay happy and have fun. Understand that an ability to compromise will be important, especially when more powerful characters are involved. When building a character, have backup ideas in case the first one doesn't fly. Think of ways you could keep the basic essence of your character (freaky psychic halfbreed, in this case) without following your original plan. Some of the most interesting characters I've played have been the direct result of a DM strongly discouraging or outright banning my first ideas. The DM should also be expected to compromise -- just because he gets the final say doesn't mean it's a good idea for him to go all lawful evil on the group. He may be worried about powerful characters, but he's the DM; he has the power to balance the playing field without taking anything away from the other players. If he can't think of a way to keep powerful characters in check, then he's probably not creative enough to be a good DM anyway. So, to summarize: Communicate. Compromise. Keep cool.
Gilganarz_the_reporter 03-02-07, 02:36 AM	No the problem is that he is wants to apply a template that is not available to players (no LA given) because the +5 LA version can't be applied to elans as they are abberants. In addition to this he does not want to pay +5 LA but +3 because that is the CR modification. I'm sorry but if a player of mine pulled that on me, I'd be ranting that he is a munchkin. He's not an optimizer since he's basically BREAKING the rules. Simple steps to resolve the problem. 1) Old Fiend Folio half-illithid has an LA of +5 2) Read Underdark. Realise that nothing has changed except that it can be applied to different creature types. 3) Logically deduce that it would be worth the same LA,and allow thr player to play a conceoptually wierd character that will easily lose out to a core caster. Unfortunately, some people will decide to use this step 3: alternate step 3: REALISE TEH RULZ DONT SAY IT SO IT DOES NOT WORK LOLZOR!@?! PLAYERZ IZ TRYING 2 B MUNCHKINZ BCOS CHARACTER IZ TEH HAXXORZ!!!!@#$! In which case play a vigilante and get 43 1st level spells per day.;)
FeceMan 03-02-07, 02:48 AM	People, please. You're missing the point. The problem is NOT the OP's outlandish character, it's the OP's playing with a douchetard for a DM.
Gilganarz_the_reporter 03-02-07, 02:51 AM	People, please. You're missing the point. The problem is NOT the OP's outlandish character, it's the OP's playing with a douchetard for a DM. Actaully, the real problem is that the DM is having a knee-jerk reaction to a character that would seem munchkinish because it is a wierd race combo. A DM who took the time to read the rules would see that the character is anything but.
Cold Napalm 03-02-07, 03:01 AM	Simple steps to resolve the problem. 1) Old Fiend Folio half-illithid has an LA of +5 2) Read Underdark. Realise that nothing has changed except that it can be applied to different creature types. 3) Logically deduce that it would be worth the same LA,and allow thr player to play a conceoptually wierd character that will easily lose out to a core caster. See the problem is he doesn't want to even do that play by the +5 LA rule. He wants it for +3 because that is what the CR increase is. THAT is why I call him a munchkin. I can see enough to allow the underdark template be worth +5 like the old one sure. IF he made his character using the +5 LA I would not be calling him a munchkin now BUT he didn't. He used the CR increase instead and thats is out and out CHEATING and VERY much munchkin territory.
Cold Napalm 03-02-07, 03:20 AM	People, please. You're missing the point. The problem is NOT the OP's outlandish character, it's the OP's playing with a douchetard for a DM. No the problem is that the OP wants to cheat. He wants a +5 LA template for +3 and decided to do so without the DM permission and when the DM found out about this and got mad and called him a munchkin (which I think he quite rightfully deserves), he came here looking for sympathy against his "douchetard" DM.
pyropetey9 03-02-07, 03:25 AM	Hold it right there! Illithids are created by taking a larva and introducing it to the brain of a humanoid, whereupon they eat out the brain and 'inhabbit' the body, making some changes. They do not reproduce sexually in any way. Elans are made by a process applied to a normal human that can then sustain itself by psionic means. As a race they do not reproduce sexually either. If a player cam to me and asked to play a crossbreed between two races that cannot breed, let alone cross-breed, I'd freak! Anyway a character this arrogant would hardly make a good party member. a fine point, and could have ended the debate if anyone here were interested in reason. there's another problem at work here though, that i've only seen alluded to: with such a significant level adjustment, this character would be short an awful lot of hit points, especially with the Psion only getting d4s. i'm not saying it's completely unworkable, but it would require an extreme amount of work on the DM's part to create encounters that wouldn't kill the character in the first round or two, and that's not fair to the DM. as for all the posters who made derogatory comments about this player's DM, i suggest you get your butts on the other side of the screen and get a taste of exactly what's involved in this game. you obviously have no appreciation for the amount of work DMs put into this. allowing such a character wouldn't just create problems for the DM, but could very easily (and would almost certainly) cause discord with the other players. the DM's allegiance is to the group as a whole, and while this one in particular overreacted and needs to learn a little self-restraint, i agree with his call. with the great potential for in-group conflict, the difficulty in designing encounters and the clearly stated RaW backing him up, everyone needs to back off. so if everyone would kindly grow up a little and stop throwing tantrums and suggesting further immaturity, it would be appreciated.
Gilganarz_the_reporter 03-02-07, 06:59 AM	a fine point, and could have ended the debate if anyone here were interested in reason. there's another problem at work here though, that i've only seen alluded to: with such a significant level adjustment, this character would be short an awful lot of hit points, especially with the Psion only getting d4s. i'm not saying it's completely unworkable, but it would require an extreme amount of work on the DM's part to create encounters that wouldn't kill the character in the first round or two, and that's not fair to the DM. as for all the posters who made derogatory comments about this player's DM, i suggest you get your butts on the other side of the screen and get a taste of exactly what's involved in this game. you obviously have no appreciation for the amount of work DMs put into this. allowing such a character wouldn't just create problems for the DM, but could very easily (and would almost certainly) cause discord with the other players. the DM's allegiance is to the group as a whole, and while this one in particular overreacted and needs to learn a little self-restraint, i agree with his call. with the great potential for in-group conflict, the difficulty in designing encounters and the clearly stated RaW backing him up, everyone needs to back off. so if everyone would kindly grow up a little and stop throwing tantrums and suggesting further immaturity, it would be appreciated. *Ahem* 1)The poster you quoted is actually wrong. It has been stated in both Fiend Folio and Underdark that the full illithid process only works on NORMAL HUMANS. Any other race becomes a half-illithid. Thus, if people could stop suggesting that there is something wrong, racial-wise with a half-illithid as it has NOTHING TO DO WITH SEXUAL REPRODUCTION. 2) I see no reason why the DM should have to tailor make adventures specifically for this character. If built well, the character will survive and flourish. If built poorly, the character will die and thus a new character will have to be made. Natural selection at its finest. 3) Considering that the OP has not described the other members of his party, you shouldn't pass judgement on what characters would be "party appropriate' and "cause discord among the other players". Especially considering that he was able to play a tiefling assasin, evil or monstrous characters would seem to be very appropriate. 4) Having myself DMed four games, to say nothing of the other posters, you should also stop acting as if you're the only poster here who knows the work it requires to be a DM. I have played with characters that have not just LAs but racial hit die. I've DMed parties with mixed alignments. What I'm trying to say is that most concepts work if the player has thought them through and the DM considers ways it could be appropriate. There are few cases where a DM should have a knee jerk reaction such as the OP's DM did.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 03-02-07, 10:05 AM	*Ahem* 1)The poster you quoted is actually wrong. It has been stated in both Fiend Folio and Underdark that the full illithid process only works on NORMAL HUMANS. Any other race becomes a half-illithid. Thus, if people could stop suggesting that there is something wrong, racial-wise with a half-illithid as it has NOTHING TO DO WITH SEXUAL REPRODUCTION. Well know lets look into that logically. 1) The template in the under dark does not offer an LA adjust. This would seem to indacate that it is not entended for PC use. 2) Elans are essentially humans. The lords of madness states that the process ceremorphosis, the process of creating a new illithid, works or any humanoid. However Elans are not technically humanoid, they are aberations. Yet the template in the fiend foilo sates that it can not be applied to an abberation. So either we go by the RAW, and say that the build is illegal on the grounds that the template can be applied to an aberation. Or we can house that it can in certain cercumstances were it would make sence to do so. However in that case we would regard the Elan as essentially humanoid. Remembeer we're not going by the RAW on this one. Elans are after all psionically modified humans. Remove their brians and they become human corpses. Which if elans are essentially human, the process of ceromorphis would create a full illithid. The process would not work in reverse as it sates for elans that the ritual only works on humans. That of course assumes that the template would allowed as the +5 in the fiend foilo. The OP however wants it at a +3 as indactated in the under dark. I have to agree that seems a little munchkiny, or haxourz as you put. 2) I see no reason why the DM should have to tailor make adventures specifically for this character. If built well, the character will survive and flourish. If built poorly, the character will die and thus a new character will have to be made. Natural selection at its finest. My money is still on natural sectection with this thing. But we still have issues regarding weither or not it is logically possible, and even allowable by the RAW. I still don't see why the DM is obligated to house rule anything for any of PCs regardless of how much they really really want to. Or should players be able to make their house rules too? But if that is the case why even bother with the books? 3) Considering that the OP has not described the other members of his party, you shouldn't pass judgement on what characters would be "party appropriate' and "cause discord among the other players". Especially considering that he was able to play a tiefling assasin, evil or monstrous characters would seem to be very appropriate. We don't know what the other party members are. We can't really argue weather or not this is broken or not. For all we know it is weak for this camapign. On notes though: 1) We *do* know the DM has seriouse issues with it fitting into the world. 4) Having myself DMed four games, to say nothing of the other posters, you should also stop acting as if you're the only poster here who knows the work it requires to be a DM. I have played with characters that have not just LAs but racial hit die. I've DMed parties with mixed alignments. What I'm trying to say is that most concepts work if the player has thought them through and the DM considers ways it could be appropriate. There are few cases where a DM should have a knee jerk reaction such as the OP's DM did. I've DMed for some 5 odd years now myself. I have had everything from racial HD to holy-phants as cohorts. I wouldn't allow it in my game either.
pyropetey9 03-02-07, 02:19 PM	comparing illithids to tieflings is like comparing carpet bombs to campfires.
FeceMan 03-02-07, 03:13 PM	Anyone who says that the DM is not being a douchetard ought never to DM. 1. "zoMg teh op cheethng!!1!" Really? Was it on purpose, or was it an accident? 2. "teh DM new he wuz cheetin" No, the DM did not. If you can't see this, then you fail at reading comprehension. 3. "i m so smrt" No, you're not.
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-02-07, 03:42 PM	I agree with FeceMan. I myself am a DM and I understand that it's not within the DM's power to ban things without knowing what he's banning. It's his obligation to work with his players or, failing that, butt out of their concept. DMs should give their players credit. Really, players aren't going to run rampant, creating miniature Pun-Puns if you stop holding their hands during character creation.
Olskool 03-02-07, 03:52 PM	I agree with FeceMan. I myself am a DM and I understand that it's not within the DM's power to ban things without knowing what he's banning. It's his obligation to work with his players or, failing that, butt out of their concept. . Actually, not knowing how something works is a perfectly valid reason to ban it. You can hardly abjudicate an effect if you don't know what it is. Also, It's the obligation of the players to adapt to the DM's world, not the other way around. If a player ever seriously told me to butt out of his character concept, I'd tell him to butt out of my game.
Limousine_Liberal 03-02-07, 04:18 PM	I agree with FeceMan. I myself am a DM and I understand that it's not within the DM's power to ban things without knowing what he's banning. I think you have a stilted view of DM power. The DM is within his "power" to decalre that the next campain will be an "all Kobold Commoner campaign." Personally, I ban Incarnum for the simple fact that I don't own the book and can't muster up the time and inclination to read a borrowed copy. I've tried to read it...I never make it more than 10 pages before that snoozefest knocks me out like a light. (You may love incarnum, and that's great, I just can't get into it.) I certainly think it's within my rights to ban material I have never read. In fact, it's downright dangerous to the game for the DM to accept things on the grounds "I don't know anything about it, so I can't ban it." In this case, the DM appears to have overreacted, but we do not have his side of the story. Anyone who'd condemn him as a "douchetard" based on the assumption that the OPs post is the 100% unbiased version of the story, probably could benefit from being somewhat less credulous (not to mention from getting a more sophisticated list of insults). What we do know is: The DM seems unusually intransigent. The DM apparently accused this player of "always" optimizing. In this case, the player seems to have made a significant error (in his favor) concerning the LA of the template he wants to use. The DM may not have know that, but, then again, this may or may not have been the first time the player made such "beneficial" erroneous interpretations of the rules. Though he may have overreacted, it seems likely that the DM's past experience with the player predisposed him to view the player's creative efforts negatively. The player ran to the boards to bad-mouth his DM's decision. There are errors on both sides in this fight.
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-02-07, 04:26 PM	The DM is within his "power" to decalre that the next campain will be an "all Kobold Commoner campaign." Yes, but the players should be given free hands within those boundaries. Personally, I ban Incarnum for the simple fact that I don't own the book and can't muster up the time and inclination to read a borrowed copy. I've tried to read it...I never make it more than 10 pages before that snoozefest knocks me out like a light. (You may love incarnum, and that's great, I just can't get into it.) Personally, I know pretty much all of the variant systems. If I didn't and a player asked me to be allowed to play it, I'd either read up on it, or, failing that, allow it (I trust my players; they're great).
Daydreamer 03-02-07, 04:45 PM	Character that doesnt suck is an opinion statement. My fav pc that i ever had in my 14 years of playing d&d was a human fighter with his highest stat at 14 who went on to greatness despite the odds. I dont know, whats his standard take on these races? How powerful do you stand out in relation to the group? Remember power in d&d is purely an illusion, the dm always can make stronger npcs, i always though for this reason, having an interesting character was the object. Your language-such as picking race that feeds into ur class and for the sake of 'not sucking' is the langauge of power gamers that i know. Who pick there character with mechanics in midn rather than character-nothing fundamentally wrong with it (just fundamentally futile) but it may be out of keeping with ur dm
jeffseadot 03-02-07, 05:41 PM	It's the DM's right and responsibility to ban anything he cannot reasonably handle. It's not unreasonable to expect a DM to make a good-faith effort to learn new systems and options if a player is interested in utilizing them, but if it would be too unbalancing, if the power progression cannot reasonably be predicted, or if he just can't get the hang of it, then he *should* ban the system. Case in point: about a year ago I was interested in playing a character that specialized in magic item creation (something nobody in our group had ever explored before). It wasn't long before I stumbled across the artificer and the plethora of crazy-ass feats and abilities available. I asked my DM if I could play one; he was uneasy about the concept but did give me the go-ahead. After one session it became apparent that I would be an unbalancing force in the campaign, and he (very politely) said that I should make a new character. The issue wasn't that I was too powerful but rather that we simply didn't know how powerful I could become. This was entirely new territory for all of us, and despite a genuine effort on his part to learn the details of magic item creation and why artificers are so freakin' good at it, he had too much on his plate to be able to deal with a character who was a complete and utter wild card. One more thing for players to consider: when you're in a campaign, the only thing you really need to think about is your character. If you gain a level at the end of a session, you can spend as much time as you like between that point and the next time you get together to decide how you want to allocate skill points, which spells you want to gain, which feats you want to take, and possibly a number of other options. You can spend time adjusting where you want to take your character in the future based on the events of the previous sessions. The DM cannot apply that much focus to anything -- in addition to knowing a basic idea of what characters are capable of, he's also responsible for making sure the group has something to do the next time they get together. Not being able to know the tricks and talents of the characters nearly as well as the people playing them puts the DM at a huge disadvantage, and that disadvantage is made bigger when a player wants to play something unusual or level-adjusted.
Gilganarz_the_reporter 03-02-07, 06:33 PM	Well know lets look into that logically. 1) The template in the under dark does not offer an LA adjust. This would seem to indacate that it is not entended for PC use. 2) Elans are essentially humans. The lords of madness states that the process ceremorphosis, the process of creating a new illithid, works or any humanoid. However Elans are not technically humanoid, they are aberations. Yet the template in the fiend foilo sates that it can not be applied to an abberation. So either we go by the RAW, and say that the build is illegal on the grounds that the template can be applied to an aberation. Or we can house that it can in certain cercumstances were it would make sence to do so. However in that case we would regard the Elan as essentially humanoid. Remembeer we're not going by the RAW on this one. Elans are after all psionically modified humans. Remove their brians and they become human corpses. Which if elans are essentially human, the process of ceromorphis would create a full illithid. The process would not work in reverse as it sates for elans that the ritual only works on humans. But the elan process doesn't just involve messing with the brain. The enitre organ system would have to be morphed as well, resulting in an entirely new critter. The Elan doesn't even have the human subtype. I honestly don't see why it would be so hard to treat the half-illitihd as identical to the Fiend Folio one in terms of LA. I agree that it is semi-munchkinish for the OP to want the LA to be +3 instead. That of course assumes that the template would allowed as the +5 in the fiend foilo. The OP however wants it at a +3 as indactated in the under dark. I have to agree that seems a little munchkiny, or haxourz as you put. As`said, this I can agree with. My money is still on natural sectection with this thing. But we still have issues regarding weither or not it is logically possible, and even allowable by the RAW. I still don't see why the DM is obligated to house rule anything for any of PCs regardless of how much they really really want to. Or should players be able to make their house rules too? But if that is the case why even bother with the books? He's not obligated, but he shouldn't necessarily have a knee jerk reaction to a character concept because it "sounds munchkiny". Besides, how big a house rule is "the underdark half-illithid has a +5 lA", especially when the general consensus is that such a character is weak? We don't know what the other party members are. We can't really argue weather or not this is broken or not. For all we know it is weak for this camapign. On notes though: 1) We *do* know the DM has seriouse issues with it fitting into the world. Actually no, the DM seemed to be fine with a pure illithid and only disliked the half illithid on the grounds of munchkinism. There doesn't seem to be a party dynamic issue here, as presumed by many other posters.[/QUOTE] I've DMed for some 5 odd years now myself. I have had everything from racial HD to holy-phants as cohorts. I wouldn't allow it in my game either. *shrugs* each to their own I guess. But i'd assume you'd say no after consideration, or more of a reason than "it sounds munchkiny".
Cold Napalm 03-03-07, 01:43 AM	Okay the OP IS a munchkin. We have no idea what the DM did since all we have is the word of a rather confirmed munchkin. You as a PLAYER can not go umm I want this +5 LA template but you know thats steap and I can't use it on elans but hey this underdark one has a template with NO LA listed so I'll just say it's 3. He's a munchkin pure and simple. The DM may have over reacted but since once again all we have is the word of a munchkin and we all know how reliable THAT is. I honestly have no problems siding with the DM on this one.
Gilganarz_the_reporter 03-03-07, 02:38 AM	Okay the OP IS a munchkin. We have no idea what the DM did since all we have is the word of a rather confirmed munchkin. You as a PLAYER can not go umm I want this +5 LA template but you know thats steap and I can't use it on elans but hey this underdark one has a template with NO LA listed so I'll just say it's 3. He's a munchkin pure and simple. The DM may have over reacted but since once again all we have is the word of a munchkin and we all know how reliable THAT is. I honestly have no problems siding with the DM on this one. Perhaps we should let the player attempt to explain himself. Because if there is one point I'll side with the "The player is a munchkin" side on is that no, you cannot simply decide that the LA is +3 becuase you want it to. If your DM does allow the template, it should be +5
On_the_wings_of_TPK 03-03-07, 12:41 PM	Perhaps we should let the player attempt to explain himself. Because if there is one point I'll side with the "The player is a munchkin" side on is that no, you cannot simply decide that the LA is +3 becuase you want it to. If your DM does allow the template, it should be +5 I agree with you on this. We do not know what the DM said, or did not say. If we take the OP at face value then the DM is a bit of Douche for freaking out. If we do not take the Op at face value, then we really have nothing to base the DM's reaction or personality off of. And again the only thing that is munchkiny is wanting the template at +3 over a +5. For all we know the party composition may just be a bunch of abberations form the underdark. However that being said denying the template at a +5 becuase it is munchie is a bit of a stretch. I *personally* don't like it becuase flavourfully wise I just can't see it. I also own niethert the underdark, nor the fiend book. But that is just me, and my opinions as a DM matter not in the campaign we are discussing.
Voldar_Mecorthio 03-03-07, 02:04 PM	This thread and all conversations attached to it are over. No more posting allowed. If you do post, I will shoot a missle at your house from my satelite.
Voldar_Mecorthio 03-03-07, 02:06 PM	However, to get rid of loose ends, the fact that RAW prohibits something has never really stopped my group from doing it. We change stuff on a daily basis.
Cold Napalm 03-03-07, 05:26 PM	This thread and all conversations attached to it are over. No more posting allowed. If you do post, I will shoot a missle at your house from my satelite. And this really isn't helping you with the you are a munchkin image here. I mean really dodging giving the build repeatly makes it look like your hiding something (which it seems you really are since taking a +5 LA for +3 LA because that is the CR is indeed a munchkin manuver) and then when people go against you, going shut up really isn't helping the matter. From the way your posts went, I honestly really do have no issues siding with the DM...especially if the way you post if how you deal with the DM.
Limousine_Liberal 03-03-07, 11:46 PM	From the way your posts went, I honestly really do have no issues siding with the DM...especially if the way you post if how you deal with the DM. All I'd say is that I'd not want to get into the middle of the dispute. The +3 LA vs. +5 LA vs. "no LA listed" problem is enough of a hiccup that I wouldn't want to come down on the DM for dinging the build. (Though I'm not sure he banninated it for the right reasons.) It's simply better to not take either side imo. Bring on that missile.
Gilganarz_the_reporter 03-04-07, 04:58 AM	Bring on that missile. I agree. Part of asking for help means having to accept it when you may be part of the problem in the first place. Making ultimatums just because you didn't get 100% support is no way to solve your problem. And this is coming from a psoter who is largely agreeing with you.
Cold Napalm 03-04-07, 02:56 PM	All I'd say is that I'd not want to get into the middle of the dispute. The +3 LA vs. +5 LA vs. "no LA listed" problem is enough of a hiccup that I wouldn't want to come down on the DM for dinging the build. (Though I'm not sure he banninated it for the right reasons.) It's simply better to not take either side imo. Bring on that missile. Well I generally don't like to take sides, but given that the OP at first refused to give his build and then he gives a very defensive reason as to why a +5 LA template is worth +3 followed by an ultimatium...I mean if this is how he was with his DM I can very well understand a DM going off. I sure as hell would if one of my players refused to give me a build when I asked for it, then tell me that they are taking a +5 LA template for +3 followed by an ultimatium/pouting when I rightfully said HELL NO.
Ack 03-04-07, 03:42 PM	Rule #1 when trying to run a new or unusual build past a GM: make sure EVERY DAMN bit of that character that isn't 100% vanilla or normal is fully documented and that you can back it up in some way, shape or form. Anything less is just sloppy, and deserves whatever slamming it gets.
Voldar_Mecorthio 03-04-07, 04:03 PM	You guys can keep talking, but just know that I'm never going to look at this ever again, so anything dirrected at me will be pointless. And since I got rid of the front page text, no one new will be coming. Have fun.
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-04-07, 04:13 PM	Don't worry, Some_Call_me_Tim quoted it for everyone to see.
Cold Napalm 03-05-07, 02:19 AM	You guys can keep talking, but just know that I'm never going to look at this ever again, so anything dirrected at me will be pointless. And since I got rid of the front page text, no one new will be coming. Have fun. You know guys, it's mean and probably against the CoC but when somebody acts like this, don't you wanna just keep the thread going and going just to annoy the hell out of them? I'm sorry but pouty people are so fun to torment :evillaugh .
Merestil Haye 03-05-07, 07:46 AM	I don't think either player comes out of this particularly well. However, we never actually heard from the DM, so it's a bit difficult to tell whether he threw the wobbly because he misunderstood the way the template worked, or because he's had problems with the OP before or what. (The OP, understandably, is telling this from his own point of view and puts his perceptions of the DM's actions into his account. You really need both to judge properly.) However, the simple fact is that by the rules, you cannot use this template for PCs. if it has no listed LA, it is not for PC use. Use the one that does have an LA, or find another concept.
Limousine_Liberal 03-05-07, 08:05 AM	Well I generally don't like to take sides, but given that the OP at first refused to give his build and then he gives a very defensive reason as to why a +5 LA template is worth +3 followed by an ultimatium...I mean if this is how he was with his DM I can very well understand a DM going off. I sure as hell would if one of my players refused to give me a build when I asked for it, then tell me that they are taking a +5 LA template for +3 followed by an ultimatium/pouting when I rightfully said HELL NO. At the very least any complicated build should be discussed with the DM before you get your heart set on it. If you really like a build, you should be happy to share it with the DM, so that he can see your brilliance and any concerns he has can be discussed. (If, however, you're afraid the DM will simply say "No way", that is also a reason to share it with him...never hide things from the DM.) I do agree that, in this case, I'm wondering if the DM's strong (seemingly irrational) negative reaction is more the result of past DM/OP conflicts than it is with the DM merely being unreasonable.