help with an old Flame! [Archive] - Wizards Community

help with an old Flame! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Yoho1.5
04-12-04, 06:18 PM In three weeks I'm going on a road trip to see a guy I used to play D&D with in University and we decided that we would play the Dungeon Magazine 100's "old Embers never die" as weekend one time only session. I will DM, and there will be three players, my wife, my old gaming buddy and his wife. To save time I will generate the characters in advance so we can devote the weekend to game play. Now "Old Embers Never Die" is friggin tough with two major Dragon encounters. I need some ideas on character builds for four would be dragon slayers! Using 3.5 rules (core rules only) 25 pt buy and standard wealth for 12th level. I was thinking we probably use a standard party of fighter/cleric/wiz/rogue. Any ideas are welcome as, some of the players haven't played in years and they are going to need all the help they can get. Old embers never die features an EL 15 encouter with an ancient red skeletal dragon, and eldar fire elemental and a kobolt Clr7/Dracolyte3, and act two is a EL 12-15 Adult red dragon and advanced hell hounds and a pair of fire giants.
Heron_Marked_Blade
04-12-04, 07:24 PM Sounds like you need fire resistance/immunity and lots of cold-based attacks. :D

I'd go with the standard fighter/cleric/wiz/rogue group, personally. If it ain't broke don't fix it. ;) Although unless you want lots of feats as a fighter, you might play a paladin instead of a fighter (immunity to dragon fear and good saves [CHA bonus] is nice). OTOH, fighters are much more versatile in combat than paladins are (lots of feats). I would suggest a monk for the high AC/evasion/anti-caster abilities, but it doesn't look like casters are going to be your problem, and a 25 point buy isn't enough to make a worthwhile monk.

(Stats = Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha)
Rogue: Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 4 (BAB +6/+1, sneak attack +4d6, evasion, Scribe Scroll, AT goodness, effective Wizard 9 [5th-level spells]) :: stats 8/14/12/15/10/8 (+1 level bump into INT, +2 bumps into DEX)
Fighter: Paladin 4/Fighter 8 (BAB +12/+7/+2, paladin goodies [aura of courage, Divine Health, Divine Grace, detect evil], 5 bonus feats) :: stats 15/12/14/10/8/8 (level bumps into STR)
Cleric: Cleric 12 (can't beat straight cleric if you're only playing Core) :: stats 12/10/12/10/15/10 (level bumps into WIS)
Wizard: Wizard 12 (6th-level spells are nice) :: stats 8/14/12/15/10/8 (level bumps into INT)

12th-level wealth is 88,000gp. Get frost enhancements on weapons (and bows), make sure everyone has melee and ranged abilities (and lots of ammo), make sure casters know and prepare lots of cold-based spells (I doubt every enemy you come across will be immune to cold, although fire creatures would be stupid not to have some sort of cold resistance item/spell up), prepare scrolls (cure spells in particular, as well as utility arcane spells), make sure the Rogue has a good UMD score, Wizard should have wands of [cold spell] crafted (or individuals should purchase them) and make sure he and the Rogue use them, etc.

Sounds like a lot of fun; good luck!
Zardnaar
04-12-04, 09:08 PM I've got that adventure. If your players are new or haven't played for so long perhaps use 28 or 32 point buy and give them a break now and then.
primemover003
04-12-04, 10:12 PM I played just the 4 Ettins/ 6hell hound encounter and the 3 Draconic Crocodile/1/2red dragon croc encounters with 4 15th level PC's

1/2 orc ranger 7/orc scout 5/barbarian 3
fire genasi psion 11/fighter 3
halfling rogue 11/scout 4
human bard 10/cleric 5

The Hell houndswere cake though they did slow down the bard and rogue. The ettins however were beating on my 1/2 orc till the Psion mindblasted them! But that just alerted the Crocs and the 1/2 dragon...

The 1/2 dragon did so much damage to the psion in one round, that the player decided to Time Hop 7 rounds into the future to avoid certain death by drowning!!! (I had him grabbed in the red crocs jaws)

It took a few crits from the rogue and rangers bows to kill the 1/2 dragon! We didn't even think of going to the Dragons lair!!! They were so banged up...
Yoho1.5
04-13-04, 02:11 PM Thanx for replys so far. I'm excited about this one as i haven't been behind the screen in a year or two. Everyone at the game table has atleast a few years experience, some have played since 1st ed., that said all of the players are moms and dads with young children and busy jobs, and D&D is a distant memory for everyone. This weekend will be more of a flashback to carefree younger days when you could put off studying to play. Ive read though "old embers" three times now and it just sounds really tough! We are giving 3.5 a try, but all of us haven't played since 3 (thats why we are sticking to core rules only) Some have suggested that I need to cut some slack and go with a bigger point buy, I hope, althought I'm not certain, that characters that are "purpose built" for "Old Embers" we be advantage enough. I'd like imput from anyone who has played or DMed "Old Embers", just tell me what characters you played and how it went. If you haven't played old embers but your experienced dragon killers, I'd also like to hear from you.

primemover003 -- How did you guys fare in the kobolt lair?
primemover003
04-13-04, 04:24 PM didn't run it... sorry
Zardnaar
04-14-04, 12:50 AM Although I haven't actually played it I do own it and have had adventures with Dragons in them before. 3rd edition dragons have had a huge boost over what they were in 1st and 2nd ed. In the old rules the new Dragons often have ACs below -10 for example along with casting arcane spells as a full spellcaster rather than a few spell like abilities and a handful of wizard levels- and d12 hit dice, fighter THACO.....
Edymnion
04-15-04, 08:26 PM Originally posted by Zardnaar
Although I haven't actually played it I do own it and have had adventures with Dragons in them before. 3rd edition dragons have had a huge boost over what they were in 1st and 2nd ed. In the old rules the new Dragons often have ACs below -10 for example along with casting arcane spells as a full spellcaster rather than a few spell like abilities and a handful of wizard levels- and d12 hit dice, fighter THACO..... Oh heck yes.
2e dragons were mean.
3e dragons are downright terrorfying.

Example:

Age Catagory 12 (great wyrm) Red Dragon in 2e:
Hitdice: 23d10 (126.5 average hp)

Great Red Wyrm in 3e:
Hitdice: 40d12+400 (660 average hp)

3e dragons have over five times as many hp as their 2e counterparts, have the same ACs, do about the same damage with their breath weapons, and then pile on a ton of spellcasting abilities to boot.

Make absolutely sure you know what you're doing when converting a 2e module using dragons over to 3e, or you will seriously beat your players into the ground.

Giants also got a huge boost in 3e as well, so balance for them as well.
Yoho1.5
04-15-04, 11:47 PM Thanx for the replys thus far. Some of the disscusion has swayed to a comparision of dragon toughness between various editions of D&D, a good topic, but I think some misconceptions about my post have occured. Firstly althought scott and myself have played since first ed and scotts wife started with 3rd and my wife with 2nd ed, we have all played alot of 3rd ed, but none of us have played in over a year. This will be our first 3.5 venture and from what i've read its only a .25 difference. Secondly "Old Embers Never Die" is a 3.5 adventure and doesn't need conversion. Lastly I think 3.5 dragons are the best yet, in first ed they where scary, but in 3.5 they are absolutely ass kicking mean and in 3.5 published adventures they are seldomly found alone; there is always some dragon thralls and a half dragon or two around just to make it friggin harder. For those that have never played "Old Embers" it's worth getting dragon 100 back issue, as it is well written. I will give a verdict about what its like to play in a couple of weeks.
Yoho1.5
04-27-04, 10:30 AM :bump:

The hour of "Old Embers Never Die" draws near. I'm starting to make the characters today, but I'd like some final imput. If you played it tell me about your party and how it went. If you have some great dragon killing tactics/builds lets hear 'em. I'm starting with the fighter type, but can't decide on fighting style, I'm thinking on sword and board with dodge mobility.
Utumno
04-27-04, 04:17 PM Here is the only thing I will add. Since your players have not played in a coons age try to make simple builds for your spellcasters. Give the cleric the heal and good domains. That's simple enough and make a sorceror not a wizard with really simple but powerful spells. If the PCs are lv 12 then you need to keep your spellcasters simple since they may not remember how to play 2ed spellcasters let alone 3ed spellcasters.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yoho1.5 04-12-04, 06:18 PM	In three weeks I'm going on a road trip to see a guy I used to play D&D with in University and we decided that we would play the Dungeon Magazine 100's "old Embers never die" as weekend one time only session. I will DM, and there will be three players, my wife, my old gaming buddy and his wife. To save time I will generate the characters in advance so we can devote the weekend to game play. Now "Old Embers Never Die" is friggin tough with two major Dragon encounters. I need some ideas on character builds for four would be dragon slayers! Using 3.5 rules (core rules only) 25 pt buy and standard wealth for 12th level. I was thinking we probably use a standard party of fighter/cleric/wiz/rogue. Any ideas are welcome as, some of the players haven't played in years and they are going to need all the help they can get. Old embers never die features an EL 15 encouter with an ancient red skeletal dragon, and eldar fire elemental and a kobolt Clr7/Dracolyte3, and act two is a EL 12-15 Adult red dragon and advanced hell hounds and a pair of fire giants.
Heron_Marked_Blade 04-12-04, 07:24 PM	Sounds like you need fire resistance/immunity and lots of cold-based attacks. :D I'd go with the standard fighter/cleric/wiz/rogue group, personally. If it ain't broke don't fix it. ;) Although unless you want lots of feats as a fighter, you might play a paladin instead of a fighter (immunity to dragon fear and good saves [CHA bonus] is nice). OTOH, fighters are much more versatile in combat than paladins are (lots of feats). I would suggest a monk for the high AC/evasion/anti-caster abilities, but it doesn't look like casters are going to be your problem, and a 25 point buy isn't enough to make a worthwhile monk. (Stats = Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha) Rogue: Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 4 (BAB +6/+1, sneak attack +4d6, evasion, Scribe Scroll, AT goodness, effective Wizard 9 [5th-level spells]) :: stats 8/14/12/15/10/8 (+1 level bump into INT, +2 bumps into DEX) Fighter: Paladin 4/Fighter 8 (BAB +12/+7/+2, paladin goodies [aura of courage, Divine Health, Divine Grace, detect evil], 5 bonus feats) :: stats 15/12/14/10/8/8 (level bumps into STR) Cleric: Cleric 12 (can't beat straight cleric if you're only playing Core) :: stats 12/10/12/10/15/10 (level bumps into WIS) Wizard: Wizard 12 (6th-level spells are nice) :: stats 8/14/12/15/10/8 (level bumps into INT) 12th-level wealth is 88,000gp. Get frost enhancements on weapons (and bows), make sure everyone has melee and ranged abilities (and lots of ammo), make sure casters know and prepare lots of cold-based spells (I doubt every enemy you come across will be immune to cold, although fire creatures would be stupid not to have some sort of cold resistance item/spell up), prepare scrolls (cure spells in particular, as well as utility arcane spells), make sure the Rogue has a good UMD score, Wizard should have wands of [cold spell] crafted (or individuals should purchase them) and make sure he and the Rogue use them, etc. Sounds like a lot of fun; good luck!
Zardnaar 04-12-04, 09:08 PM	I've got that adventure. If your players are new or haven't played for so long perhaps use 28 or 32 point buy and give them a break now and then.
primemover003 04-12-04, 10:12 PM	I played just the 4 Ettins/ 6hell hound encounter and the 3 Draconic Crocodile/1/2red dragon croc encounters with 4 15th level PC's 1/2 orc ranger 7/orc scout 5/barbarian 3 fire genasi psion 11/fighter 3 halfling rogue 11/scout 4 human bard 10/cleric 5 The Hell houndswere cake though they did slow down the bard and rogue. The ettins however were beating on my 1/2 orc till the Psion mindblasted them! But that just alerted the Crocs and the 1/2 dragon... The 1/2 dragon did so much damage to the psion in one round, that the player decided to Time Hop 7 rounds into the future to avoid certain death by drowning!!! (I had him grabbed in the red crocs jaws) It took a few crits from the rogue and rangers bows to kill the 1/2 dragon! We didn't even think of going to the Dragons lair!!! They were so banged up...
Yoho1.5 04-13-04, 02:11 PM	Thanx for replys so far. I'm excited about this one as i haven't been behind the screen in a year or two. Everyone at the game table has atleast a few years experience, some have played since 1st ed., that said all of the players are moms and dads with young children and busy jobs, and D&D is a distant memory for everyone. This weekend will be more of a flashback to carefree younger days when you could put off studying to play. Ive read though "old embers" three times now and it just sounds really tough! We are giving 3.5 a try, but all of us haven't played since 3 (thats why we are sticking to core rules only) Some have suggested that I need to cut some slack and go with a bigger point buy, I hope, althought I'm not certain, that characters that are "purpose built" for "Old Embers" we be advantage enough. I'd like imput from anyone who has played or DMed "Old Embers", just tell me what characters you played and how it went. If you haven't played old embers but your experienced dragon killers, I'd also like to hear from you. primemover003 -- How did you guys fare in the kobolt lair?
primemover003 04-13-04, 04:24 PM	didn't run it... sorry
Zardnaar 04-14-04, 12:50 AM	Although I haven't actually played it I do own it and have had adventures with Dragons in them before. 3rd edition dragons have had a huge boost over what they were in 1st and 2nd ed. In the old rules the new Dragons often have ACs below -10 for example along with casting arcane spells as a full spellcaster rather than a few spell like abilities and a handful of wizard levels- and d12 hit dice, fighter THACO.....
Edymnion 04-15-04, 08:26 PM	Originally posted by Zardnaar Although I haven't actually played it I do own it and have had adventures with Dragons in them before. 3rd edition dragons have had a huge boost over what they were in 1st and 2nd ed. In the old rules the new Dragons often have ACs below -10 for example along with casting arcane spells as a full spellcaster rather than a few spell like abilities and a handful of wizard levels- and d12 hit dice, fighter THACO..... Oh heck yes. 2e dragons were mean. 3e dragons are downright terrorfying. Example: Age Catagory 12 (great wyrm) Red Dragon in 2e: Hitdice: 23d10 (126.5 average hp) Great Red Wyrm in 3e: Hitdice: 40d12+400 (660 average hp) 3e dragons have over five times as many hp as their 2e counterparts, have the same ACs, do about the same damage with their breath weapons, and then pile on a ton of spellcasting abilities to boot. Make absolutely sure you know what you're doing when converting a 2e module using dragons over to 3e, or you will seriously beat your players into the ground. Giants also got a huge boost in 3e as well, so balance for them as well.
Yoho1.5 04-15-04, 11:47 PM	Thanx for the replys thus far. Some of the disscusion has swayed to a comparision of dragon toughness between various editions of D&D, a good topic, but I think some misconceptions about my post have occured. Firstly althought scott and myself have played since first ed and scotts wife started with 3rd and my wife with 2nd ed, we have all played alot of 3rd ed, but none of us have played in over a year. This will be our first 3.5 venture and from what i've read its only a .25 difference. Secondly "Old Embers Never Die" is a 3.5 adventure and doesn't need conversion. Lastly I think 3.5 dragons are the best yet, in first ed they where scary, but in 3.5 they are absolutely ass kicking mean and in 3.5 published adventures they are seldomly found alone; there is always some dragon thralls and a half dragon or two around just to make it friggin harder. For those that have never played "Old Embers" it's worth getting dragon 100 back issue, as it is well written. I will give a verdict about what its like to play in a couple of weeks.
Yoho1.5 04-27-04, 10:30 AM	:bump: The hour of "Old Embers Never Die" draws near. I'm starting to make the characters today, but I'd like some final imput. If you played it tell me about your party and how it went. If you have some great dragon killing tactics/builds lets hear 'em. I'm starting with the fighter type, but can't decide on fighting style, I'm thinking on sword and board with dodge mobility.
Utumno 04-27-04, 04:17 PM	Here is the only thing I will add. Since your players have not played in a coons age try to make simple builds for your spellcasters. Give the cleric the heal and good domains. That's simple enough and make a sorceror not a wizard with really simple but powerful spells. If the PCs are lv 12 then you need to keep your spellcasters simple since they may not remember how to play 2ed spellcasters let alone 3ed spellcasters.