Help with Class Roles [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with Class Roles [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Halalmester
11-19-07, 10:02 AM Does anyone know any materials dealing with these class roles (tank, healer, etc.) in detail?

We understand the concept (having played some MMOs, though I know this concept is older than that), but it's the how-to. We tried using the combat system to our advantage (AoOs and such), but it still wouldn't keep an ogre from bashing the sorcerer's head into oblivion.

Seeing all the threads dealing with this in 4E forums and how they will be explaining this in the books, I understand that this topic is a bit controversial.

Still, any help in form of text, webpage or forum thread is welcome. If there's already a thread I missed, I'm sorry about that, I've searched but I didn't find exactly what I needed.

Thanks in advance.
RobbyPants
11-19-07, 11:16 AM These google searches may or may not be of any help:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=class+roles+site%3Aforums.gleemax.com (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=class+roles+site%3Aforums.gleemax.com)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=party+roles+site%3Aforums.gleemax.com (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=party+roles+site%3Aforums.gleemax.com)

Other than that, I can't say that I believe that you need roles in a party. I can see where the concepet comes from, but I think so long as you have all your bases covered between the PCs, they don't need clear cut roles. A well built party can actually switch between "roles" fairly easily. Take this party for example:

Druid - crowd control, blasting, healing, tank, summoning, buffs, scouting

Cleric - crowd control, minor blasting, healing, tank, pwning undead, buffs, minor summoning

Conjurur - summoning, blasting, crowd control, buffs, utility, scouting

Beguiler - trapfinding, scouting, party face, crowd control, dealing with opponents with "minds"

There's really not anything this party can't do, and each member can fill in for two or three of the standard "roles". That, and I haven't even gotten into PrCs.

Oh well, that's my :twocents: on party roles. Maybe the links will show you what you're looking for. ;)
Axiomatic_vampire
11-19-07, 11:24 AM Other than that, I can't say that I believe that you need roles in a party. I can see where the concepet comes from, but I think so long as you have all your bases covered between the PCs, they don't need clear cut roles. A well built party can actually switch between "roles" fairly easily. Take this party for example:

Druid - crowd control, blasting, healing, tank, summoning, buffs

Cleric - crowd control, minor blasting, healing, tank, pwning undead, buffs, minor summoning

Conjurur - summoning, blasting, crowd control, buffs, utility

Beguiler - trapfinding, party face, crowd control, dealing with opponents with "minds"

There's really not anything this party can't do, and each member can fill in for two or three of the standard "roles". That, and I haven't even gotten into PrCs.

)

That party doesn't need roles. That party is designed to kick the snot out of the nine hells and go to the Abyss for dessert.
Some parties though, I'd argue, definitely benefit from thinking in terms of roles. I mean, really, not every party is half CoD, and the other half full progression arcane caster with free rogue skills thrown in.

Look into the various handbooks that are all over the boards.
You can read LogicNinja's (in my opinion excellent) guide to fighters here, for starters.
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-733597
Here's a link to the links:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=482636
RobbyPants
11-19-07, 12:12 PM That party doesn't need roles. That party is designed to kick the snot out of the nine hells and go to the Abyss for dessert.
Some parties though, I'd argue, definitely benefit from thinking in terms of roles. I mean, really, not every party is half CoD, and the other half full progression arcane caster with free rogue skills thrown in.
It was certainly an extreme example, I'll give you that. I just used it as an example. My only problem with thinking in terms of tank, skill monkey, divine caster, and arcane caster is that I feel the players may be unneccesarily limiting themselves.

There are a lot of "standard" parties that can still have their PCs switch roles. Realistically, any cleric or druid can jump between being a tank, healer, or buffer. Rogues can swap between skill monkey, face, and super-damage-dealer (assuming a dicernable anatomy :P). Many fighter-types may be relatively stuck in the tank role, but with some creative use of feats, they may still have ways to vary their combat (such as grappling and trips). They can actually function as non-magical crowd control.

I guess the point of my last post and this one is that the "standard" four roles are very limiting. Note how I broke my super party up into much smaller distinctions. I feel that thinking in terms of a finer break down will give the party a better way to allocate roles and tactics.
kelvinaw273
11-19-07, 12:21 PM OK, lets outline a few roles that a party could have - not necessarily will, but it's a good idea if you fill some of these slots:

Tank: A character with a good high AC (usually via heavy armour) and good hit points, this guy's role is to take whatever the enemy can dish out, getting between more vulnerable characters and the enemy. Usually a fighting type (fighter, paladin, knight) but sometimes a cleric or barbarian. Tanks are always needed.

Splatter: Like a bouncer, only harder. This guys role is to dish out the hurt in melee. Often he is also the tank, but not always. Usually a fighter, paladin, barbarian or ranger. Not essential if you have a good Blaster in the party, or a decent sneak attacker.

Sniper: Everyone should carry a missile weapon, but a specialist doesn't hurt to pepper the enemy before you get close enough to engage. Usually a ranger, scout or rogue.

Flanker: An extra person who can get in and help flank tough foes and make sure your fighter isn't overwhelmed, usually a rogue, monk or ranger. This character should have some means of hitting behind enemy lines if possible.

Trapspringer: You NEED the guy that can find and disable traps, period. Usually a rogue, scout, ninja or any class with the Trapfinding feature.

Scout: Someone who can sneak around and find out what the other guys are up to is also invaluable - rangers, rogues, monks are all good for this, as are all of the 'skilled' classes. Usually he is also your trapspringer, but not always.

Survivalist: Somebody who knows the ways of the great outdoors is always handy when you are traveling. Usually a ranger, barbarian or druid.

Face: The guy with social skills is always useful for information gathering, liaising with authorities, explaining that you really didn't mean to blow up half the village ... bards are the ideal Faces, but sorcerers and rogues are decent at it too.

Healer: You NEED a healer. Any of the divine classes are good for this, and bards are passable at it. Your healer is also another caster, and all characters should carry some method of healing themselves in an emergency.

Battlefield Control: All casters can do a little of this, and it is very worthwhile to control where the enemy can and cannot go with ease.

Blaster: Not essential but very useful, most of the arcane casters can Blast - arcane magic has the best spells for really dishing out heavy damage - but Sorcerers and Warlocks are on the balance of things best at it.

Utility Caster: There are lots of little spells that can help in all sorts of circumstances, all casters should have some utility spells, although wizards and clerics are best as they have the most flexibility.

Buffer: The guy who can enhance the others should NOT be underrated. Bards are best for this, and clerics are also good at it, but all casters have access to buff spells to enhance them or another.

Scholar: The guy with knowledge skills, who knows things. Bards and Wizards are best for this - they can tell you about what you face and how to prepare for it.

Mobile Reserve: Lastly, it helps to have a character who can get around and be wherever they are needed to stop a gap, defend the fallen and keep the enemy occupied. Monks, rangers and bards are the best for this role.

The essentials are: Either a Tank or a Splatter (preferably both in one character), a Trapspringer/Scout, a Healer and one other kind of caster. The other fields are optional, but the more you can fill the better. Obviously more than one role will be filled by a character, so avoid over-specialization in a small party.
Axiomatic_vampire
11-19-07, 12:27 PM I guess the point of my last post and this one is that the "standard" four roles are very limiting. Note how I broke my super party up into much smaller distinctions. I feel that thinking in terms of a finer break down will give the party a better way to allocate roles and tactics.

I think we can agree to agree on that part.

Still, the sorceror swinging a stick at the evil demon while the rogue runs around pouring potions down throats, while all the time the cleric is throwing rocks at the thing and the fighter is trying to reason with it...it just doesn't work that well.
RyndarLocke
11-19-07, 12:45 PM Does anyone know any materials dealing with these class roles (tank, healer, etc.) in detail?

We understand the concept (having played some MMOs, though I know this concept is older than that), but it's the how-to. We tried using the combat system to our advantage (AoOs and such), but it still wouldn't keep an ogre from bashing the sorcerer's head into oblivion.

Seeing all the threads dealing with this in 4E forums and how they will be explaining this in the books, I understand that this topic is a bit controversial.

Still, any help in form of text, webpage or forum thread is welcome. If there's already a thread I missed, I'm sorry about that, I've searched but I didn't find exactly what I needed.

Thanks in advance.

Player's Handbook II
RobbyPants
11-19-07, 01:25 PM Still, the sorceror swinging a stick at the evil demon while the rogue runs around pouring potions down throats, while all the time the cleric is throwing rocks at the thing and the fighter is trying to reason with it...it just doesn't work that well.
I'm not saying that a PC should try to do something they suck at. :P I'm just saying that if you break it into the four typical roles, various types of PCs can fullfill two or three of those roles.
Halalmester
11-19-07, 01:31 PM Thanks for the links which are really useful (including that google searching thing!) and the quick reply guys. Just checked LocNinja's guide and it reveals a lot about the problem I was concerned with.

Also kelvinaw273, your detailed list is similarly nice, thanks for the descriptive reply :)

About PHB II: I don't know the time when I can get my hands on it since it isn't sold in my country, but I'll see what I can do with amazon & stuff.

Again :cookie:s for you for helping me and my group understand this more.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Halalmester 11-19-07, 10:02 AM	Does anyone know any materials dealing with these class roles (tank, healer, etc.) in detail? We understand the concept (having played some MMOs, though I know this concept is older than that), but it's the how-to. We tried using the combat system to our advantage (AoOs and such), but it still wouldn't keep an ogre from bashing the sorcerer's head into oblivion. Seeing all the threads dealing with this in 4E forums and how they will be explaining this in the books, I understand that this topic is a bit controversial. Still, any help in form of text, webpage or forum thread is welcome. If there's already a thread I missed, I'm sorry about that, I've searched but I didn't find exactly what I needed. Thanks in advance.
RobbyPants 11-19-07, 11:16 AM	These google searches may or may not be of any help: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=class+roles+site%3Aforums.gleemax.com (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=class+roles+site%3Aforums.gleemax.com) http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=party+roles+site%3Aforums.gleemax.com (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=party+roles+site%3Aforums.gleemax.com) Other than that, I can't say that I believe that you need roles in a party. I can see where the concepet comes from, but I think so long as you have all your bases covered between the PCs, they don't need clear cut roles. A well built party can actually switch between "roles" fairly easily. Take this party for example: Druid - crowd control, blasting, healing, tank, summoning, buffs, scouting Cleric - crowd control, minor blasting, healing, tank, pwning undead, buffs, minor summoning Conjurur - summoning, blasting, crowd control, buffs, utility, scouting Beguiler - trapfinding, scouting, party face, crowd control, dealing with opponents with "minds" There's really not anything this party can't do, and each member can fill in for two or three of the standard "roles". That, and I haven't even gotten into PrCs. Oh well, that's my :twocents: on party roles. Maybe the links will show you what you're looking for. ;)
Axiomatic_vampire 11-19-07, 11:24 AM	Other than that, I can't say that I believe that you need roles in a party. I can see where the concepet comes from, but I think so long as you have all your bases covered between the PCs, they don't need clear cut roles. A well built party can actually switch between "roles" fairly easily. Take this party for example: Druid - crowd control, blasting, healing, tank, summoning, buffs Cleric - crowd control, minor blasting, healing, tank, pwning undead, buffs, minor summoning Conjurur - summoning, blasting, crowd control, buffs, utility Beguiler - trapfinding, party face, crowd control, dealing with opponents with "minds" There's really not anything this party can't do, and each member can fill in for two or three of the standard "roles". That, and I haven't even gotten into PrCs. ) That party doesn't need roles. That party is designed to kick the snot out of the nine hells and go to the Abyss for dessert. Some parties though, I'd argue, definitely benefit from thinking in terms of roles. I mean, really, not every party is half CoD, and the other half full progression arcane caster with free rogue skills thrown in. Look into the various handbooks that are all over the boards. You can read LogicNinja's (in my opinion excellent) guide to fighters here, for starters. http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-733597 Here's a link to the links: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=482636
RobbyPants 11-19-07, 12:12 PM	That party doesn't need roles. That party is designed to kick the snot out of the nine hells and go to the Abyss for dessert. Some parties though, I'd argue, definitely benefit from thinking in terms of roles. I mean, really, not every party is half CoD, and the other half full progression arcane caster with free rogue skills thrown in. It was certainly an extreme example, I'll give you that. I just used it as an example. My only problem with thinking in terms of tank, skill monkey, divine caster, and arcane caster is that I feel the players may be unneccesarily limiting themselves. There are a lot of "standard" parties that can still have their PCs switch roles. Realistically, any cleric or druid can jump between being a tank, healer, or buffer. Rogues can swap between skill monkey, face, and super-damage-dealer (assuming a dicernable anatomy :P). Many fighter-types may be relatively stuck in the tank role, but with some creative use of feats, they may still have ways to vary their combat (such as grappling and trips). They can actually function as non-magical crowd control. I guess the point of my last post and this one is that the "standard" four roles are very limiting. Note how I broke my super party up into much smaller distinctions. I feel that thinking in terms of a finer break down will give the party a better way to allocate roles and tactics.
kelvinaw273 11-19-07, 12:21 PM	OK, lets outline a few roles that a party could have - not necessarily will, but it's a good idea if you fill some of these slots: Tank: A character with a good high AC (usually via heavy armour) and good hit points, this guy's role is to take whatever the enemy can dish out, getting between more vulnerable characters and the enemy. Usually a fighting type (fighter, paladin, knight) but sometimes a cleric or barbarian. Tanks are always needed. Splatter: Like a bouncer, only harder. This guys role is to dish out the hurt in melee. Often he is also the tank, but not always. Usually a fighter, paladin, barbarian or ranger. Not essential if you have a good Blaster in the party, or a decent sneak attacker. Sniper: Everyone should carry a missile weapon, but a specialist doesn't hurt to pepper the enemy before you get close enough to engage. Usually a ranger, scout or rogue. Flanker: An extra person who can get in and help flank tough foes and make sure your fighter isn't overwhelmed, usually a rogue, monk or ranger. This character should have some means of hitting behind enemy lines if possible. Trapspringer: You NEED the guy that can find and disable traps, period. Usually a rogue, scout, ninja or any class with the Trapfinding feature. Scout: Someone who can sneak around and find out what the other guys are up to is also invaluable - rangers, rogues, monks are all good for this, as are all of the 'skilled' classes. Usually he is also your trapspringer, but not always. Survivalist: Somebody who knows the ways of the great outdoors is always handy when you are traveling. Usually a ranger, barbarian or druid. Face: The guy with social skills is always useful for information gathering, liaising with authorities, explaining that you really didn't mean to blow up half the village ... bards are the ideal Faces, but sorcerers and rogues are decent at it too. Healer: You NEED a healer. Any of the divine classes are good for this, and bards are passable at it. Your healer is also another caster, and all characters should carry some method of healing themselves in an emergency. Battlefield Control: All casters can do a little of this, and it is very worthwhile to control where the enemy can and cannot go with ease. Blaster: Not essential but very useful, most of the arcane casters can Blast - arcane magic has the best spells for really dishing out heavy damage - but Sorcerers and Warlocks are on the balance of things best at it. Utility Caster: There are lots of little spells that can help in all sorts of circumstances, all casters should have some utility spells, although wizards and clerics are best as they have the most flexibility. Buffer: The guy who can enhance the others should NOT be underrated. Bards are best for this, and clerics are also good at it, but all casters have access to buff spells to enhance them or another. Scholar: The guy with knowledge skills, who knows things. Bards and Wizards are best for this - they can tell you about what you face and how to prepare for it. Mobile Reserve: Lastly, it helps to have a character who can get around and be wherever they are needed to stop a gap, defend the fallen and keep the enemy occupied. Monks, rangers and bards are the best for this role. The essentials are: Either a Tank or a Splatter (preferably both in one character), a Trapspringer/Scout, a Healer and one other kind of caster. The other fields are optional, but the more you can fill the better. Obviously more than one role will be filled by a character, so avoid over-specialization in a small party.
Axiomatic_vampire 11-19-07, 12:27 PM	I guess the point of my last post and this one is that the "standard" four roles are very limiting. Note how I broke my super party up into much smaller distinctions. I feel that thinking in terms of a finer break down will give the party a better way to allocate roles and tactics. I think we can agree to agree on that part. Still, the sorceror swinging a stick at the evil demon while the rogue runs around pouring potions down throats, while all the time the cleric is throwing rocks at the thing and the fighter is trying to reason with it...it just doesn't work that well.
RyndarLocke 11-19-07, 12:45 PM	Does anyone know any materials dealing with these class roles (tank, healer, etc.) in detail? We understand the concept (having played some MMOs, though I know this concept is older than that), but it's the how-to. We tried using the combat system to our advantage (AoOs and such), but it still wouldn't keep an ogre from bashing the sorcerer's head into oblivion. Seeing all the threads dealing with this in 4E forums and how they will be explaining this in the books, I understand that this topic is a bit controversial. Still, any help in form of text, webpage or forum thread is welcome. If there's already a thread I missed, I'm sorry about that, I've searched but I didn't find exactly what I needed. Thanks in advance. Player's Handbook II
RobbyPants 11-19-07, 01:25 PM	Still, the sorceror swinging a stick at the evil demon while the rogue runs around pouring potions down throats, while all the time the cleric is throwing rocks at the thing and the fighter is trying to reason with it...it just doesn't work that well. I'm not saying that a PC should try to do something they suck at. :P I'm just saying that if you break it into the four typical roles, various types of PCs can fullfill two or three of those roles.
Halalmester 11-19-07, 01:31 PM	Thanks for the links which are really useful (including that google searching thing!) and the quick reply guys. Just checked LocNinja's guide and it reveals a lot about the problem I was concerned with. Also kelvinaw273, your detailed list is similarly nice, thanks for the descriptive reply :) About PHB II: I don't know the time when I can get my hands on it since it isn't sold in my country, but I'll see what I can do with amazon & stuff. Again :cookie:s for you for helping me and my group understand this more.