Post/Author/DateTime	Post
magus_172 06-24-05, 03:03 PM	Ok, so we are an ECL 13 party that is facing an archer who is killing our party. The archer is about 3000 feet away and is firing 4 shots per round. His target is our party's assassin and the archer so far tends keep a constant distance from the assassin (if the assassin moves forwards, the archer moves back and vise versa). We are on an open road with tall grass on the sides. Our party is made up of: a shadar-kai rouge/assassin; a centuar fighter; a bugbear barbarian; a golaith war mage/elemental savant (specializing in acid); and myself, a sidhe (same stats as half celestial) two weapon fighting ranger. All of us have mounts except for me becuase the archer killed my horse. Any help anybody can give on strategy for this guy would be greatly appreciated. If you want to know any other detail I didn't include, just ask, thanks in advance.
the dmg 06-24-05, 07:04 PM	How tall is the grass? If it is enough to keep you and your party hidden, then I suggest that you use that to your advantage. He won't know who he is shooting at, and the assassin could use this to help him move closer without the archer's knowledge. Have him move so that he doesn't give away his position, and have you and the other players move around in the grass to give the archer a false target.
Archangel_James 06-24-05, 07:29 PM	3000 feet? I would think that the curvature of the earth would give you total cover.
Salla 06-24-05, 07:48 PM	Okay, first off ... how is he HITTING you? Ranged projectile weapons have a maximum range of 10 times the range increment, so he somehow has a weapon with a 300' or better increment; which also means he's at -20 to hit you (assuming the 300' is the correct measure). Even the Deepwood Sniper can't pull off THAT kind of range. So, either your DM is missing a rule, or some truly weird stuff is going on here. Discretion is the better part of valor; fall back. You may want to fall back *all* the way to a town or castle and re-equip yourselves. If you can, get your hands on a scroll with Teleport; your ranger can then track the archer down (shouldn't be too hard, depending on terrain) and deal with him on your close-range terms. If he manages to set you up in another skeet shoot like this, use the teleport scroll to get the Bugbear in close and have him Sunder the bow.
footdownatgreen 06-24-05, 09:05 PM	It is actually quite easy. If the archer is only matching the assassin, have him move 3000 feet back. That brings the archer to you who will be hidding ready to ambush him. Beyond that, your dm seems to be misinterpetting a rule or two.
magus_172 06-24-05, 09:16 PM	I have asked my DM how he is even hitting us but he insists that it is doable. Also, the grass is tall enough to grant concealment. Thanks for the ideas thus far.
OracleYori 06-24-05, 09:25 PM	Dude! I want to know how that archer is doing that...Moving with a tower shield should provide plenty of cover- especially turtle manuever-
ServantOfTheLordYawgmoth 06-24-05, 10:19 PM	All right, as the DM here I can pretty much assure you guys that either this is perfectly legal, or I'm reading the rules really wrong. And I'm generally pretty good about these sorts of things. This is, as far as I can see, perfectly doable using nothing more than the core books plus the Complete series. And nothing particularly broken from either, in my opinion (though I suppose the combination here could be debatable). It is, I suppose, possible that something doesn't stack, but it looked good to me when I statted this fellow. If anyone really wants to know how it's done, you can PM me. I don't plan on posting it here until after the encounter is over for reasons I'm sure you all understand. Actually, I had been misreading one rule that helps the party out now. Thanks, Salla, for mentioning that it's a -20 penalty. I've been using -1 per range increment for the past year and half, and since my players are all too lazy to actually read their PHBs, no one has called me on it in that entire time. Of course, up until now it's been in their benefit, as they've been the ones most likely to shoot things across multiple range increments, but it's still good to know now. And this does indeed make the party safer, though not by much.
Timlagor 06-25-05, 11:10 AM	I can get up to a range increment of 292.5ft. I'm not completely certain that the stacking works but I think it does. I know there is a way to shoot truly obscene distances but I think it's in one of the Race Books (not the method above). Tactics: 1) Hide in the grass -can't see any reason you wouldn't have done this already so maybe I've missed something. 2) Invisibility 3) Dimension Door 4) CHARGE! -you didn't mention if the archer is mounted but a flat out run will at any rate not let him shoot you if he's trying to egt away. (if he is mounted that another penalty to his 'to hit') This really should work if yoau re all mounted. 5) Fly to 3000 feet above him and then drop stuff or fall + feather fall when you get close.
Zalak 06-25-05, 11:42 AM	The run action won't get you there in time. Depending on how fast your horses go, it could take you up to 1.5 minutes to get there. Unless you think you can take 15 full rounds of arrows. If you have teleporting magic, use it to get close. Remind your DM that if the archer is moving, he isn't making a full attack, and he is using 4 arrows per round(most archers only carry a few quivers). Although now that you won't be hit as often, a charge might be a good idea. Use your own discretion here. By the way, Yawgmoth, just because you CAN make an NPC who can fire at 3 times the normal maximum distance, doesn't mean you should if it's a near guaranteed TPK.
mycroft65536 06-25-05, 12:26 PM	3000' away, AND easy cover? Hide, you get +299 to hide(actually he gets it as a penelty to spot checks) at that range. A dex 8 fighter in half plate and a tower shield would have an effective +281 to his hide check. If he's running twards the guy while hiding it's only +261 till he gets closer, and then the wizard should be able to fry this archer.
Aram al'Castor 06-25-05, 01:00 PM	If the archer is only trying to kill the assassin sneak into the grass and have him change clothes with one of the other part members preferably whichever one has the better AC and looks somewhat like him. Then while the archer shoots at the imposter the Assassin could sneak (assassins are good at that) up to the archer and kill him from behind.
Orcboss 06-25-05, 02:01 PM	3000 feet? I would think that the curvature of the earth would give you total cover. 3000 feet is just over half a mile. The earth doesn't curve that fast.
skywyze 06-25-05, 02:35 PM	3000 feet is just over half a mile. The earth doesn't curve that fast. Do Faerun/Toril/whatever world you're playing in HAVE curvature? I never stopped to think that the D&D planes might actually be flat...
Timlagor 06-25-05, 02:51 PM	The run action won't get you there in time. Depending on how fast your horses go, it could take you up to 1.5 minutes to get there. Unless you think you can take 15 full rounds of arrows. Ops good point.
ServantOfTheLordYawgmoth 06-25-05, 09:48 PM	All right, as the fight ended today (though the archer made it out with his life, so the issue may pop up again), I figured I'd let you all know the build I used, and you can tell me if I screwed up somewhere. Composite Longbow (PHB): 110 foot range increment. Distance Enchantment (DMG): doubles range increment Far Shot (PHB): 1.5x range increment Hawkeye 1st level ranger spell (Complete Adventurer): +50% range increment Even assuming that the rules on doubling apply to percentages (which I did) that's a 330 foot range increment, which gives a max of 3300 feet. There may be something there that doesn't stack, but it looked like it worked to me. It was a pretty tough fight, but through much hiding (that -20 for running towards your opponent while hiding looks pretty good when he's taking -200 on a spot check) and some well-placed spells and arrows, the party survived. Actually, they all would have survived, but as the archer had just barely gotten through them with his life and had to ride past the invisible assassin and the centaur (who had already been told that he would be spared if he dropped his weapon and let the archer past). The assassin, of course, hit his mount with a death attack. All I can say is that five arrows at point blank range, plus the proper favored enemy... made for a pair of dead characters. And a recurring enemy, since the rest of the party took the opportunity to retreat far enough for him to grab their horses (which they had dismounted from for the sake of hiding) So, there you have it: my build and the result of the fight. If I screwed up horribly on anything, please let me know. I may give the party bonus XP. And Zalak, if I thought it was a guaranteed TPK, I wouldn't have made such an NPC. But for once it appears that my faith in the party was (mostly) justified.
Encard 06-25-05, 11:14 PM	The range stuff looks right... I'm pretty sure it's all as you did it, applying as multiplkiers to the base range. I'm curious, though... What was the rest of the stuff on the char, class/gear/etc? I'm wondering how he was hitting/seeing them from so far away. If you'd rather not post it here, please PM it to me if you have the time - I'm always interested in such things.