Post/Author/DateTime	Post
timtao 04-09-07, 03:17 AM	Is it just me, or does the Eldritch knight suck? I was looking to play a classic (from 1st Ed.) Elven Fighter/Wizard. I am playing an Elven Fighter 1, Evoker 6, Eldritch Knight 1. I like the back-story I came up with for the character, but the character seems weak compared with the other party members. In the most recent encounter, we were fully rested, fully healed, and I had a full compliment of spells. After a large battle, where I unleashed every spell I had, we still got our A***es kicked - In truth, it was a near TPK with only my little Eldritch Knight surviving with 3 hp (of a total of 38). I expected to be a bit watered down as a fighter/mage, but I am wondering if this combo is even playable. A Sudden Maximized Fireball does only 36 points of damage. Our foes survived one of those, one roll-for-damage fireballs, and two roll-for-damage lightening bolts, and still managed to wipe us out. I have Spell Focus (evocation) and a sturdy +4 Int modifier. We are playing Return to The Temple of Elemental Evil, which I understand is... uh... a bit tough. So I'm wondering... does this class suck, or are we just unlucky. Anyone else playing a similar combination? What are your thoughts? PS: If this topic has been "done-to-death" (this is the comment that typically keeps me from posting on these boards), please accept my apologies, and don't bother to flame; let this post die a dignified death. Otherwise, I'd love to hear all your comments.
Kintara 04-09-07, 04:26 AM	There's real no easy way for me to judge what happened at your table, but I can say that while the Eldritch Knight is no super-class, it's no pushover either. I mean full spellcasters are pretty powerful, and those two lost levels in your progression mean that you're a spell level behind a full caster (getting 4th level spells while a full Evoker would have 5th). Also, blasters are kind of nice, but, honestly, many of the optimizers believe that it's better to go for the save-or-die/neutralize effects. It sounds like you did all right, though. You did survive. ;) What did you spend your fighter feats on? A character like yours should stay clear of melee, for the most part, even with Eldritch Knight levels and stuff. Those extra feats are probably best spent on picking up something like Precise Shot (I can't really think of much else they'd be good for). The Eldritch Knight levels make you slightly tougher and improve your BAB (which improves your aim with targeted spells and makes you scarier while polymorphed), but you're still fragile. Do you have Practiced Spellcaster? What sort of equipment did you buy? Do you have a +X Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt? Twilight is an enhancement from the Book of Exalted Deeds, but it's been reprinted elsewhere, like the Players Handbook II; it reduces the arcane spell failure by 10%, enough to make a mithral chain shirt free of penalty. It looks like you'll need it if your max HP is only 38.
Vaelan 04-09-07, 04:33 AM	Seems more like a problem with the encounter being ridiculously difficult.
3DJutsu 04-09-07, 04:40 AM	A quick quip before I head to sleep, if you almost had TKP in that battle. My suggestion is live and learn, your still alive so thats good. But whatever was wrong in the last battle (didn't have the right spells, used spells in wrong order, etc) change out your tactics. And in due time your party can have plans for most situations with contingencies for said plans. I know my post doesn't make a lot of sense, but if I get time tommorow I'll try to be more specific. Also and Ftr1/Arcane caster6/Eldritch Knight8/Abjurant Champion5 ends up with a BAB of +17 and a CL of 18th if I remember correctly. Eldritch knight might seem weak, but it's pretty cool. Also try Battle Sorcerer15/Abjurant Champion5 for +16 BAB and 20th CL, a build I'm currently working on is a Socerer (variants from both Complete Mage and PHB II) Swiftblade (shutup, I like the concept) and ended up with this so far: Soc6/Swiftblade9/Abj Champ5 or something like that, had really nice AC, and acrobatic strike combined with Arcane Strike and Arcane boost (or whatever the Abj Champ ability is) make for some nice Atk/Dmg boosts for a skirmish fighter.
Sareld 04-09-07, 06:18 AM	Eldricht Knight is a super class, but I suspect that your build are weak. Have you remembered to get the Arcane Strike feat? Are you using your magic for self buffing rather than just blasting? And are you struggeling with ACP? If you answered no, no and yes, look through the retraining rules from PHBII. In general, wizards lack HP, AC and Attack Bonus, and your build dosent seem to compensate for any of these things. Where are your spellsword level that grants you access to the abjurant champion class faster? And where are your aburant champion levels anyway? Going directly for the EK class as you do makes you loose too much BAB and HP... no wonder you are struggeling. I myself were playing a Fighter 2/Abjurer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/EK 3, and after lvl 10 he never attacked a living target without forcing saves vs. massive damage. Thats how you use the EK class.
Merestil Haye 04-09-07, 07:57 AM	Another thing to consider is that direct-damage spells in 3e are not as powerful (relatively speaking) as they used to be in 1st and 2nd Editions. In absolute terms they probably do about as much as they used to, but the ability of enemies to soak up punishment, or even not take it altogether, is far greater. Eldritch Knight is a good class to go for if you are a self-buffing wizard who aims to use his magic to better himself in combat, but for an Evoker it's two wasted levels. Also, if you want to make an arcane artillery piece, Evoker is a bit obsolete. A Warmage does it better, at the cost of being able to do little else; failing that, a Sorcerer is a better choice than an Evoker.
Drag0nUL 04-09-07, 09:14 AM	Eldritch knight is an ok class. Not even remotely comparable to the Abjurant Champion(best gish class by far IMHO) but still decent. From your post however it seems you are not playing a fighter wizard to its strengths. Attempting to blast with a fighter/wizard is not a very good idea.You are behind a full caster in both caster level(1 to 3 levels, depending on build) and usually the primary casting attribite also(if you use point buy). I have played gishes(melee-caster hybrids) for some time and I can say that, unless very high level, the main strengths of a gish are verstility and mobility. You should focus on crowd control spells(grease, solid fog, evard's black tentacles, slow etc.; as a side note any of these four spells coupled with cloudkill make a particularly deadly combination) and buffs(alter self, bull's strength, bear's endurance, haste, true strike/wraithstrike+power attack and later draconic might and tenser's transformation). A few feats that are must-have for a fighter/wizard: practiced spellcaster and arcane strike.
timtao 04-09-07, 06:27 PM	Thanks for the help, everyone. As requested, here's the stats for my Eldritch Knight. He was created as 7th level, and advanced to 8th through play. I waited one extra level before joining the EK prestige class to get a bit more benefit of my Wizard's Will save progression. Fighter 1, Evoker 6, Eldritch Knight 1 Abilities: Str 15, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 20 (incl headband of intellect), Wis 11, Char 11 1st level Fighter feats: - Point Blank Shot - Iron Will Wizard feats: - Spell Focus(evocation) - Sudden Still - Sudden Maximize Eldritch Knight feat: - Weapon Focus(longbow) Skills: Concentration and Spellcraft at max ranks, the rest a smattering of all-purpose adventuring skills (climb, listen, move silently, ride, search, spot, & swim), with just a few ranks in each. I do have a mithral shirt, but not the Twilight variety. Spell failure chance is currently 10%, and I hardly ever fail. During this tough encounter, every spell went off without a hitch. Practiced Spellcaster is the feat I'd probably pick up next, although it iffy for me whether it is worth it because I wasn't planning on taking any more fighter levels. Glad to hear some of you think the Abjurant Champion is better (DragOnUL said it best). I'm feeling the same way. It makes me wonder if the Ab-champ is overpowered or the Eldritch Knight is underpowered. I decided to specialize as an Evoker for two reasons: (1) is back-story (my character comes from a war ravaged land) and (2) I thought the extra spells would make up for the loss of 2 levels, but apparently I was wrong (Or... perhaps it is the Evoker that sucks?) I still like the Eldritch Knight for roleplaying, more so that the Abjurant Champ or the Warmage. Sareld: I don't know what/where the Arcane Strike feat is, and I'm sorry I don't know what ACP stands for. Can you enlighten me? Let me know what guys think of my build, and how I could improve it. I will talk to my DM about re-training, although I may be stuck with what I have so far. If the trend continues, I don't think I will be stuck for long! Thanks, everyone!
Sareld 04-09-07, 06:44 PM	Sareld: I don't know what/where the Arcane Strike feat is, and I'm sorry I don't know what ACP stands for. Can you enlighten me? Sure thing dude. ACP means Armor Check Penalty, a thing which you should really try to avoid. I wouldnt say that the Abjurant Champion is better per se, but the class can be used in conjunction with the EK class to make your character much strronger overall. If the AC offered more than 5 levels, I guess I would take them over the EK levels, but it dont, so its not like you have to choose between the two. The Arcane Strike feat is in Complete Warrior, and it is really an essential feat for your build. It allows you to sacrifice spells to hit better and harder, and along with power attack it will make your blows incredibly harmful. Get is ASAP.
Vaelan 04-09-07, 07:09 PM	Another thing to consider is that direct-damage spells in 3e are not as powerful (relatively speaking) as they used to be in 1st and 2nd Editions. You mean those editions where some spells required normal attack rolls and allowed a save for half that was trivial past seventh level? The reliability of spells has improved greatly, which more than balances the fact that hitpoints are gained past level 10 now. In absolute terms they probably do about as much as they used to, but the ability of enemies to soak up punishment, or even not take it altogether, is far greater. Fire Immunity is less common now, Magic Immunity is far less common, saves are harder to make, and touch attacks are a lot easier than normal attacks. I couldn't disagree with this statement more. Eldritch Knight is a good class to go for if you are a self-buffing wizard who aims to use his magic to better himself in combat, but for an Evoker it's two wasted levels. Also, if you want to make an arcane artillery piece, Evoker is a bit obsolete. A Warmage does it better, at the cost of being able to do little else; failing that, a Sorcerer is a better choice than an Evoker. I agree on all counts.
kelvinaw273 04-09-07, 07:34 PM	Fighter 1, Evoker 6, Eldritch Knight 1 Abilities: Str 15, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 20 (incl headband of intellect), Wis 11, Char 11 1st level Fighter feats: - Point Blank Shot - Iron Will Wizard feats: - Spell Focus(evocation) - Sudden Still - Sudden Maximize Eldritch Knight feat: - Weapon Focus(longbow) OK, your next two feats will be from Complete Arcane and Complete Divine - you want Arcane Strike from the former and Practiced Caster from the latter. Practiced Caster can add up to four non-caster levels to your effective caster level when detirmining the effect of spells, up to your hit-dice total. If I recall correctly, Eldritch Knight 1 does not add a caster level, and Fighter 1 certainly doesn't. That feat alone, while it gains you no spells, allows you to cast the spells you do have as if you were an 8th level Wizard, not a 6th level Wizard. That makes your fireball 25% more effective there and then. You can also risk a few more fighter levels after you have maxed on Eldritch Knight without seriously nerfing yourself. I cannot recall if Arcane Strike can be used with missile attacks, but even if it cannot it is too good to pass on: Sacrifice a prepared spell or spell slot, and gain +1 to hit per level you sacrificed and +1d4 arcane damage. That way if you get cornered and cannot cast you can still dish out some nasty damage.
StevenO 04-09-07, 07:35 PM	I wouldn't blame the EK on your character's woes. I don't know if you are trying to focus more on the might or the magic but at EK 1 you aren't going to do either well; at this point you have yet to make up some of the BAB lost and your spell ability is only 75% of what a straight caster could do. In short you are probably at rock bottom as far as an EK build goes and have nothing to do but improve. I've seen the Abjurant Champ already discussed at it is a great fighter/mage class if you don't jump through too many hoops to qualify. The other PrC you really need to consider dipping into is the Spellsword; first level will give you +1 BAB and spellcasting along with a nice -10% (maybe its only 5% need to check) ASF.
Cael 04-09-07, 08:53 PM	It is -10% ASF. Personally, I would do the following for a gish: Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 5/Dragonslayer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eld Knight 4 Feats would be: Arcane Strike, Iron Will (DS pre-req), Dodge (DS pre-req) The main thing is that you have 3x Channel Spell. This is an amazingly versatile thing to have. For example, you can Channel a Polar Ray or some other large damage thing into it in addition to your Arcane Strike to trigger something in the range of xd4+yd6 on top of your normal weapon damage with a +x to hit (Power Attack, anyone?). That will send you so far into Massive Damage territory that the bad guy is likely to fail it. Another application is to nail a magic-user with a personalised AMF with the Channel Spell ability for giggles. On top of that, you have -30% ASF, immunity to fear, etc. I'd look to replace the Eld Knight with Knight Phantom, though. Same thing with more goodies and a d8 HD.
Merestil Haye 04-09-07, 08:55 PM	You mean those editions where some spells required normal attack rolls and allowed a save for half that was trivial past seventh level? The reliability of spells has improved greatly, which more than balances the fact that hitpoints are gained past level 10 now.Powerful monsters in first and second edition had significantly less hitpoints than 3rd edition equivalents. Or have you forgotten that the most powerful red dragon had 88 hp in 1e? Fire Immunity is less common now, Magic Immunity is far less common, saves are harder to make, and touch attacks are a lot easier than normal attacks. I couldn't disagree with this statement more.Adding to the point above was the problem that damage spells had no level cap. This made area effect spells far more powerful. A careful placing of a Lightning Bolt could zap an enemy standing close to a wall twice or more from the same 3rd level spell - 24d6 damage from a 12th level wizard. Magic Immunity was restricted to Golems from what I recall. Most creatures had Magic Resistance - a quantity set assuming an 11th level wizard, and (in 1e) varying by 5% for each level the wizard was away from that level. (Of course that's as nothing compared to the high level party's answer to everything. First cast Otto's Irresistible Dance on the monster, then while he was Dancing cast Sink on him. End of monster.)
Harlan_Arcenciel 04-09-07, 09:58 PM	Heya! As a fellow player of battle-mages, I have something for you. Are you ready to give up 2 more spellcasting levels? The Havoc mage PrC from the Miniature's Handbook is easy to get into, gets a d8, 2 good saves, and a rogue's BAB. However, the really fun part is it's special ability: Battlecast (ex): "A havoc mage gains the ability to cast spells of a certain level or lower while making a weapon attack. He may take a full-round action to attack and cast a spell. The spell must be an arcane spell he knows of 2nd level or lower with a casting time of 1 standard action or less. When using his battlecast ability, a havoc mage may cast spells requiring somatic components even if he has no free hands. Using battlecast does not provoke attacks of opportunity. At 3rd level and higher, a havoc mage can battlecast a spell of 4th level or lower. At 5th level, a havoc mage can battlecast a spell of 8th level or lower." Forget spellsword-take up Abjurant champion to help your AC, and then go havoc mage. There's no limit to this ability other than the level of spell you can cast. You can use this to cast any spell you have prepared, and at any target. You can hit the person in front of you with one attack at your full BAB, then cast fireball at someone else. If you're having a hard time connecting, you can battlecast true strike. You can buff or attack as you see fit. Also, I recommend getting the spellstoring quality added to your main melee weapon. You'd be able to cast whatever destructive little evocation spell of 3rd level or lower into your weapon that your heart desires, even from scrolls.
Cael 04-09-07, 10:49 PM	Heya! As a fellow player of battle-mages, I have something for you. Are you ready to give up 2 more spellcasting levels? The Havoc mage PrC from the Miniature's Handbook is easy to get into, gets a d8, 2 good saves, and a rogue's BAB. However, the really fun part is it's special ability: Battlecast (ex): "A havoc mage gains the ability to cast spells of a certain level or lower while making a weapon attack. He may take a full-round action to attack and cast a spell. The spell must be an arcane spell he knows of 2nd level or lower with a casting time of 1 standard action or less. When using his battlecast ability, a havoc mage may cast spells requiring somatic components even if he has no free hands. Using battlecast does not provoke attacks of opportunity. At 3rd level and higher, a havoc mage can battlecast a spell of 4th level or lower. At 5th level, a havoc mage can battlecast a spell of 8th level or lower." Forget spellsword-take up Abjurant champion to help your AC, and then go havoc mage. There's no limit to this ability other than the level of spell you can cast. You can use this to cast any spell you have prepared, and at any target. You can hit the person in front of you with one attack at your full BAB, then cast fireball at someone else. If you're having a hard time connecting, you can battlecast true strike. You can buff or attack as you see fit. Also, I recommend getting the spellstoring quality added to your main melee weapon. You'd be able to cast whatever destructive little evocation spell of 3rd level or lower into your weapon that your heart desires, even from scrolls. Except for the fact that if you drop a Fireball on the guy in front of you, you get fried in the bargain as a Havoc Mage, or if you drop a AMF on the guy, you get caught in the anti-magic field as well. This is something that the Spellsword can get around due to the fact that Channel Spell *only* affect the target. That is why it is a personalised AMF. Only the target gets zapped by it.
timtao 04-10-07, 12:58 AM	This is good advice, all. I will look at Arcane Strike. The consensus seems that Practiced Spellcaster will help enough to be worth the feat purchase. I was a bit concerned that I'd only get a +2 to caster level instead of the +4 available, which I'd only get if I do add more non-caster levels. We didn't have access to Complete Mage at the time I built this character. Since it has shown up, every player in our group is infatuated with the Abjurant Champion. One of the deceased PC's is being replaced with one. I will probably add a few levels of AC to my EK build. It is pretty hard to pass up. :) Also a spellstoring weapon would be very sweet for this character. Useful, and fits the pic I have of him in my head.
Vaelan 04-10-07, 03:59 AM	Powerful monsters in first and second edition had significantly less hitpoints than 3rd edition equivalents. Or have you forgotten that the most powerful red dragon had 88 hp in 1e? That is the standard argument. I just posted the many, many things that the standard argument ignores. Adding to the point above was the problem that damage spells had no level cap. This made area effect spells far more powerful. A careful placing of a Lightning Bolt could zap an enemy standing close to a wall twice or more from the same 3rd level spell - 24d6 damage from a 12th level wizard. That particular trait was probably the single thing I saw houseruled out most often. Part of the whole "bounce the lightning bolt for hundreds of d6s of damage" really got on a lot of people's nerves. Magic Immunity was restricted to Golems from what I recall. Most creatures had Magic Resistance I meant to refer to Magic Resistance. It was far more significant than SR is now, since there are spells that give you ridiculous bonuses to bypass it and spells that just plain ignore it.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-10-07, 02:07 PM	You mean those editions where some spells required normal attack rolls and allowed a save for half that was trivial past seventh level? You're forgetting that damage spells capped at twice the amount of dice, and everything had fewer HP than they do now. Sure, a 20th level fighter would only fail a save against the fireball on a 1. Half damage from a 20d6 fireball is a lot when you only have 60 or so HP at 20th level. A troll in 2E also had about 20 hp, give or take. A 3E troll has three times that, due to the fact that 3E stuff gets a con bonus, while 2e monsters did not. A 2E troll could easily be killed by 1 fireball from a 5th level wizard. Not so with the 3E troll. In short, your memory of earlier editions is imperfect, my guess is that you only heard about earlier editions and never actually played them.
Deus_Proelii 04-12-07, 11:28 AM	Don't pass up Spellsword, even if you take only 1 or 3 levels of it, because it provides you with reduced chance of arcane spell failure. Abjurant Champion does not give you that. With just one level of Spellsword you won't give up any caster levels and you'll get -10% ASF, which would allow you to wear a Mithral Chainshirt with no risk of ASF. With 3 levels of Spellsword you get -15% ASF, which means you could wear a Mithral Breastplate with no risk of ASF, or if you factor in Twilight, Mithral Twilight Full Plate. For 3 levels of Spellsword you sacrifice one caster level - which can be made up for by Practiced Spellcaster. At your current configuration, if you follow this build Fighter 1/Evoker 6/Eldritch Knight 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight x you'll end up with CL 18 (CL 20 with Practiced Spellcaster), 9th level spells, and -10% ASF.