Help with LA (I know again) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with LA (I know again) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cruros
09-27-07, 12:20 AM Okay, this probably has been explained many times but would I go about creating a Bugbear as a creature. I read the the player section under Bugbear in the 3.5 MM. The DM for our campaign said I could start a 6th lv. The Bugbear has a +1 LA, which to me means I could level him to 5 in say Rouge. But he said cause I so 3 lv's of humaniod that he would only have 2 level of Rouge. Is this correct?
Arkeas
09-27-07, 12:34 AM Yes.
Kouk
09-27-07, 01:00 AM Okay, this probably has been explained many times but would I go about creating a Bugbear as a creature. I read the the player section under Bugbear in the 3.5 MM. The DM for our campaign said I could start a 6th lv. The Bugbear has a +1 LA, which to me means I could level him to 5 in say Rouge. But he said cause I so 3 lv's of humaniod that he would only have 2 level of Rouge. Is this correct?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm

Read up this link for more info, but basically your Effective Character Level (the level the "game" considers your character) is your Racial Hit Dice, plus your Level Adjustment, plus your Class Levels.

Your "racial hit dice" are the number of HD a monster without class levels starts with. As you can see from the statistics of the Bugbear: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm
A Bugbear starts with 3 hit dice, this is considered his "levels" in Humanoid(Goblinoid), because he has 3 hit dice according to the Humanoid subtype of creature (as defined in the Monster Manual).

So, you take those "3 levels of HUmanoid(Goblinoid)" and add them to the Level Adjustment it has for special abilities above and beyond its levels in Humanoid, and add its Class Levels (by default it has none) to get the Effective Character Level of 4 for a standard Bugbear as a player character.

If you want to add class levels on top of that, you would have a level 1 Rogue (or whatever class), with an effective character level of 5.

This would mean you are counted as having 5 HD for spells and effects that care about that, and you require the amount of experience any other "normal" level 5 character would need in order to reach level 6 (which would be your second class level).

It is generally believed that using races with Racial Hit Dice, and a Level Adjustment higher than +1 makes a very weak character as compared to a "normal" PC race that only has class levels.
Colmarr
09-27-07, 01:14 AM Kouk is correct.
1337Ninja
09-27-07, 06:03 AM Yes, a bugbear character would be very weak. The racial hit dice just don't compare to actual levels (even dragon HD don't, but they come close), and the ECL 4 on a CR 1 with no special abilities is just failure.
runestar
09-27-07, 06:08 AM Yes, a bugbear character would be very weak. The racial hit dice just don't compare to actual levels (even dragon HD don't, but they come close), and the ECL 4 on a CR 1 with no special abilities is just failure.

In theory, this would have been factored into its LA. For example, if you removed its 3 humanoid HD and replaced them with fighter lvs, its LA should increase (maybe to +2).

You are right though in that it is fairly weak, though this is more a problem of flawed LA calculation, rather than the fault of inferior racial HD alone. That and ECL should never be compared with cr, since they are used to gauge 2 completely separate things, and should thus never be used interchangeably.
1337Ninja
09-27-07, 06:25 AM In theory, this would have been factored into its LA. For example, if you removed its 3 humanoid HD and replaced them with fighter lvs, its LA should increase (maybe to +2).

Yes, replacing the racial hit dice with levels would do that in most circumstances, but in the case of such creatures, their racial Hit Dice are so high that there is no way short of a negative LA that they would be balanced for playing. A level 3 fighter is going to be much better than a bugbear that has been optimized for fighting, and Wizards' apparent policy that everything with racial hit dice needs LA to be balanced throws the balance of bugear PCs even more out of whack.

You are right though in that it is fairly weak, though this is more a problem of flawed LA calculation, rather than the fault of inferior racial HD alone. That and ECL should never be compared with cr, since they are used to gauge 2 completely separate things, and should thus never be used interchangeably.

This is very true, but more so in the case of things with unique, non-combat abilities, like the various magical creatures with innate flight, teleportation and such. The bugbear's CR is balanced for a straight-up fight, and it has no abilities that increase its potential at anything else, so the CR should be fairly close to the ECL. Still, I probably shouldn't be comparing the two in a rules question topic, because that could be misleading to new players who frequent such things.
Cifer
09-27-07, 10:13 AM This would mean you are counted as having 5 HD for spells and effects that care about that, and you require the amount of experience any other "normal" level 5 character would need in order to reach level 6 (which would be your second class level).
Not quite - you only have four hit dice. I can't find any mentioning of counting the LA as HD for spells or effects.
Puggins
09-27-07, 10:59 AM Yes, replacing the racial hit dice with levels would do that in most circumstances, but in the case of such creatures, their racial Hit Dice are so high that there is no way short of a negative LA that they would be balanced for playing. A level 3 fighter is going to be much better than a bugbear that has been optimized for fighting, and Wizards' apparent policy that everything with racial hit dice needs LA to be balanced throws the balance of bugear PCs even more out of whack.

Oh, I dunno... you can do worse than bugbear. If the bugbear didn't have the +1 LA, it'd actually be pretty damn reasonable.

Human fighter: 5 feats
Bugbear: 2 feats

Human fighter: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 9
Bugbear: Str 20, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 7

Fighter skills: 18 skill points, fighter skills
Bugbear: 12 skill points, Bugbear skill (better than fighter skills)

Fighter Armor Class: 17 (Breastplate)
Bugbear Armor Class: 19 (Chain Shirt, Natural Armor) <- will improve after first class level.

Fighter Attack: +6 (2d6 + 4) Greatsword
Bugbear Attack: +7 (2d6 + 7) Greatsword

Bubear: Darkvision 60', scent, Move silently +4

We're not talking earthshakingly good, but I'd say the Bugbear is better than the fighter. Then the +1 LA comes in and kills it.

This is very true, but more so in the case of things with unique, non-combat abilities, like the various magical creatures with innate flight, teleportation and such. The bugbear's CR is balanced for a straight-up fight, and it has no abilities that increase its potential at anything else, so the CR should be fairly close to the ECL. Still, I probably shouldn't be comparing the two in a rules question topic, because that could be misleading to new players who frequent such things.[/QUOTE]
Some_call_me_Tim
09-27-07, 02:03 PM The Bugbear has a +1 LA, which to me means I could level him to 5 in say Rouge. But he said cause I so 3 lv's of humaniod that he would only have 2 level of Rouge. Is this correct?
Your DM is quite correct (as has been stated above).

I would ask your DM if you could use the alternative rules in Unearthed Arcana for reducing level adjustments. This would allow you to give xp to remove your LA. This way you can catch-up with the rest of the party, as you get higher level the things that LA account for matter less and less.
Cifer
09-27-07, 02:46 PM We're not talking earthshakingly good, but I'd say the Bugbear is better than the fighter. Then the +1 LA comes in and kills it.
I'd say you're underrating the 3 feats the fighter gets - usually, that's an entire feat chain you're losing there.
Puggins
09-27-07, 03:56 PM I'd say you're underrating the 3 feats the fighter gets - usually, that's an entire feat chain you're losing there.

Oh, yeah, those three feats are the fighter's biggest advantage. But those feats, a +1 BAB and those extra skill points have to make up for:

(1) a better class skill list
(2) +4Str, +2Dex, +2Con
(3) +3 Natural Armor
(4) Darkvision 60'
(5) Scent
(6) Move Silently + 4 Racial Bonus

That's an awful lot to make up.
Cifer
09-27-07, 04:35 PM Let's sift through it.

Better class skills are of course right.
The abilities are a massive bonus.
The Natural armor is pretty handy.
Darkvision... well, it's useful if everyone has it. Otherwise, you'll still be needing some light.
Scent - Can be practical indeed. Sneaking up on you will be hard.
Move Silently - is somewhat useful if you're into that, but fighters don't have it as a class skill. To keep up with monsters, you'll be needing to pour a lot of skill into it and Hide (you'll need 4 skill points per level -> minimum int 14 and then you don't have any fighter skills)

So still, bugbears DO have some advantages over human fighters. Now the funny thing is, fighters are widely regarded as being pretty much underpowered...
Puggins
09-27-07, 05:05 PM Let's sift through it.

So still, bugbears DO have some advantages over human fighters. Now the funny thing is, fighters are widely regarded as being pretty much underpowered...

Yeah, I never said the bugbear was good, mind you. A 17th level bugbear warblade that bought off its +1LA would probably do just fine against a 20th level human warblade, though.

Still, that +1 LA is a deal killer. And bugbears are light years ahead of other humanoid alternatives *COUGH*Gnolls*COUGH*.

Not a sterling recommendation for the LA system.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cruros 09-27-07, 12:20 AM	Okay, this probably has been explained many times but would I go about creating a Bugbear as a creature. I read the the player section under Bugbear in the 3.5 MM. The DM for our campaign said I could start a 6th lv. The Bugbear has a +1 LA, which to me means I could level him to 5 in say Rouge. But he said cause I so 3 lv's of humaniod that he would only have 2 level of Rouge. Is this correct?
Arkeas 09-27-07, 12:34 AM	Yes.
Kouk 09-27-07, 01:00 AM	Okay, this probably has been explained many times but would I go about creating a Bugbear as a creature. I read the the player section under Bugbear in the 3.5 MM. The DM for our campaign said I could start a 6th lv. The Bugbear has a +1 LA, which to me means I could level him to 5 in say Rouge. But he said cause I so 3 lv's of humaniod that he would only have 2 level of Rouge. Is this correct? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm Read up this link for more info, but basically your Effective Character Level (the level the "game" considers your character) is your Racial Hit Dice, plus your Level Adjustment, plus your Class Levels. Your "racial hit dice" are the number of HD a monster without class levels starts with. As you can see from the statistics of the Bugbear: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm A Bugbear starts with 3 hit dice, this is considered his "levels" in Humanoid(Goblinoid), because he has 3 hit dice according to the Humanoid subtype of creature (as defined in the Monster Manual). So, you take those "3 levels of HUmanoid(Goblinoid)" and add them to the Level Adjustment it has for special abilities above and beyond its levels in Humanoid, and add its Class Levels (by default it has none) to get the Effective Character Level of 4 for a standard Bugbear as a player character. If you want to add class levels on top of that, you would have a level 1 Rogue (or whatever class), with an effective character level of 5. This would mean you are counted as having 5 HD for spells and effects that care about that, and you require the amount of experience any other "normal" level 5 character would need in order to reach level 6 (which would be your second class level). It is generally believed that using races with Racial Hit Dice, and a Level Adjustment higher than +1 makes a very weak character as compared to a "normal" PC race that only has class levels.
Colmarr 09-27-07, 01:14 AM	Kouk is correct.
1337Ninja 09-27-07, 06:03 AM	Yes, a bugbear character would be very weak. The racial hit dice just don't compare to actual levels (even dragon HD don't, but they come close), and the ECL 4 on a CR 1 with no special abilities is just failure.
runestar 09-27-07, 06:08 AM	Yes, a bugbear character would be very weak. The racial hit dice just don't compare to actual levels (even dragon HD don't, but they come close), and the ECL 4 on a CR 1 with no special abilities is just failure. In theory, this would have been factored into its LA. For example, if you removed its 3 humanoid HD and replaced them with fighter lvs, its LA should increase (maybe to +2). You are right though in that it is fairly weak, though this is more a problem of flawed LA calculation, rather than the fault of inferior racial HD alone. That and ECL should never be compared with cr, since they are used to gauge 2 completely separate things, and should thus never be used interchangeably.
1337Ninja 09-27-07, 06:25 AM	In theory, this would have been factored into its LA. For example, if you removed its 3 humanoid HD and replaced them with fighter lvs, its LA should increase (maybe to +2). Yes, replacing the racial hit dice with levels would do that in most circumstances, but in the case of such creatures, their racial Hit Dice are so high that there is no way short of a negative LA that they would be balanced for playing. A level 3 fighter is going to be much better than a bugbear that has been optimized for fighting, and Wizards' apparent policy that everything with racial hit dice needs LA to be balanced throws the balance of bugear PCs even more out of whack. You are right though in that it is fairly weak, though this is more a problem of flawed LA calculation, rather than the fault of inferior racial HD alone. That and ECL should never be compared with cr, since they are used to gauge 2 completely separate things, and should thus never be used interchangeably. This is very true, but more so in the case of things with unique, non-combat abilities, like the various magical creatures with innate flight, teleportation and such. The bugbear's CR is balanced for a straight-up fight, and it has no abilities that increase its potential at anything else, so the CR should be fairly close to the ECL. Still, I probably shouldn't be comparing the two in a rules question topic, because that could be misleading to new players who frequent such things.
Cifer 09-27-07, 10:13 AM	This would mean you are counted as having 5 HD for spells and effects that care about that, and you require the amount of experience any other "normal" level 5 character would need in order to reach level 6 (which would be your second class level). Not quite - you only have four hit dice. I can't find any mentioning of counting the LA as HD for spells or effects.
Puggins 09-27-07, 10:59 AM	Yes, replacing the racial hit dice with levels would do that in most circumstances, but in the case of such creatures, their racial Hit Dice are so high that there is no way short of a negative LA that they would be balanced for playing. A level 3 fighter is going to be much better than a bugbear that has been optimized for fighting, and Wizards' apparent policy that everything with racial hit dice needs LA to be balanced throws the balance of bugear PCs even more out of whack. Oh, I dunno... you can do worse than bugbear. If the bugbear didn't have the +1 LA, it'd actually be pretty damn reasonable. Human fighter: 5 feats Bugbear: 2 feats Human fighter: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 9 Bugbear: Str 20, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 7 Fighter skills: 18 skill points, fighter skills Bugbear: 12 skill points, Bugbear skill (better than fighter skills) Fighter Armor Class: 17 (Breastplate) Bugbear Armor Class: 19 (Chain Shirt, Natural Armor) <- will improve after first class level. Fighter Attack: +6 (2d6 + 4) Greatsword Bugbear Attack: +7 (2d6 + 7) Greatsword Bubear: Darkvision 60', scent, Move silently +4 We're not talking earthshakingly good, but I'd say the Bugbear is better than the fighter. Then the +1 LA comes in and kills it. This is very true, but more so in the case of things with unique, non-combat abilities, like the various magical creatures with innate flight, teleportation and such. The bugbear's CR is balanced for a straight-up fight, and it has no abilities that increase its potential at anything else, so the CR should be fairly close to the ECL. Still, I probably shouldn't be comparing the two in a rules question topic, because that could be misleading to new players who frequent such things.[/QUOTE]
Some_call_me_Tim 09-27-07, 02:03 PM	The Bugbear has a +1 LA, which to me means I could level him to 5 in say Rouge. But he said cause I so 3 lv's of humaniod that he would only have 2 level of Rouge. Is this correct? Your DM is quite correct (as has been stated above). I would ask your DM if you could use the alternative rules in Unearthed Arcana for reducing level adjustments. This would allow you to give xp to remove your LA. This way you can catch-up with the rest of the party, as you get higher level the things that LA account for matter less and less.
Cifer 09-27-07, 02:46 PM	We're not talking earthshakingly good, but I'd say the Bugbear is better than the fighter. Then the +1 LA comes in and kills it. I'd say you're underrating the 3 feats the fighter gets - usually, that's an entire feat chain you're losing there.
Puggins 09-27-07, 03:56 PM	I'd say you're underrating the 3 feats the fighter gets - usually, that's an entire feat chain you're losing there. Oh, yeah, those three feats are the fighter's biggest advantage. But those feats, a +1 BAB and those extra skill points have to make up for: (1) a better class skill list (2) +4Str, +2Dex, +2Con (3) +3 Natural Armor (4) Darkvision 60' (5) Scent (6) Move Silently + 4 Racial Bonus That's an awful lot to make up.
Cifer 09-27-07, 04:35 PM	Let's sift through it. Better class skills are of course right. The abilities are a massive bonus. The Natural armor is pretty handy. Darkvision... well, it's useful if everyone has it. Otherwise, you'll still be needing some light. Scent - Can be practical indeed. Sneaking up on you will be hard. Move Silently - is somewhat useful if you're into that, but fighters don't have it as a class skill. To keep up with monsters, you'll be needing to pour a lot of skill into it and Hide (you'll need 4 skill points per level -> minimum int 14 and then you don't have any fighter skills) So still, bugbears DO have some advantages over human fighters. Now the funny thing is, fighters are widely regarded as being pretty much underpowered...
Puggins 09-27-07, 05:05 PM	Let's sift through it. So still, bugbears DO have some advantages over human fighters. Now the funny thing is, fighters are widely regarded as being pretty much underpowered... Yeah, I never said the bugbear was good, mind you. A 17th level bugbear warblade that bought off its +1LA would probably do just fine against a 20th level human warblade, though. Still, that +1 LA is a deal killer. And bugbears are light years ahead of other humanoid alternatives COUGHGnollsCOUGH. Not a sterling recommendation for the LA system.