Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DrHealex 01-23-07, 06:00 PM	I have just recently been accepted into a campaign and am not "with the times" as it were. I am going to be the 4th man in a group of Paladin,bard,druid and I figured monk would fit in with them. I want to be a monk/rogue, since the Ascetic Rogue feat looked pretty cool (i <3 rogues). My rolls are 18/18/16/15/14/12 ,we rolled 4 die, rerolled 1s, dropped the low and I can subtract 3 points from one score an add it to another (though I haven't yet), I haven't put much thought into race, I start at Lvl 4, and I have to have this character done by friday. So I am requestin the help of the community to give me some nice build options. *note I don't even have a 3.5 phb, will friday though(still have 3.0 been quite awhile since i played DnD) What oh what, am I to do?! Like when is the best level to switch from monk to rogue? What is the best race to use for stat mods/abilities? What Equipment should I get, heck... how much money do I even have for starting gold? Can I wear leather armor and use flurry of blows? Etc questions about various facets of character creation, etc. So many questions in my mind, but I will stop myself before I ask too many and scare everyone away. I look forward to seeing your suggestions :D
Merestil Haye 01-23-07, 07:30 PM	You're going to face a few hard choices. Firstly, the two abilities Monks do not need - Int and Cha - are two that Rogues do need reasonable values in. Conversely, Monks cannot afford to take a poor Wis, traditionally a dump stat for Rogues. Second question is how you see the character. If he's just using the strengths of the classes to sneak around and find stuff out then you can start as a Monk. If you want to be reasonable at opening locks and stuff, think about going Rogue to start. At lesat you can multiclass freely. Speaking of multiclassing, I think you have two viable choices for the race. Human or Halfling. These avoid xp penalties with this class combo. Personally I'd play a human for the extra skillpoint - you're going to be pushed for skillpoints. With a Paladin and a Bard in the party, you won't need to be the party "face" very often. Assign abilities as follows :Str 15, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 12.First level, take Rogue. Focus your skills on the traditional scouting roles - movement and hiding, finding and disabling traps, opening locks and Tumble. Feat choices, if your DM permits it, should include Able Learner from Races of Destiny. Spring Attack is a good feat to aim at with your character level feats. Another rocking choice for later levels is Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike). You can go for Ascetic Rogue from 3rd level by taking Monk at second or third; personally I'd take Rog 2 / mnk 2 at 4th level; you'll have a lower base attack than a single-classed character, but high Str makes up for that a bit anyway. You will also have a pretty good AC - 18 in your skivvies. You get an ability increase - putting it in Str gives immediate benefits, ot you can put it elsewhere intending to reap the benefit at 8th. Int would be a useful choice for the skillpoint increase it grants. For Monk bonus feats, take Stunning Fist and Combat Reflexes. I'd be aiming for a Rog 4 / Mnk 4 at 8th level and a Rog 8 / Mnk 12 at 20th. If you play Halfling, swap the Str and Con around because you're going to take a -2 penalty in Str, and put the 4th level ability increase into Con. The above are what I would choose. Whatever you wind up playing, it sounds like a fun combo.
mcnoo 01-23-07, 07:47 PM	I'd say that's about as good as it gets. Bravo sir. The only thing I'd say on top of it is that if you don't mind having a spot of minmaxing, switch up to 3 points from charisma across to....well, whatever you value the most. Those are pretty nice rolls you've got there. Remember you've still got your extra point to spend at 4th to play with too.
DrHealex 01-23-07, 08:21 PM	You're going to face a few hard choices. Firstly, the two abilities Monks do not need - Int and Cha - are two that Rogues do need reasonable values in. Conversely, Monks cannot afford to take a poor Wis, traditionally a dump stat for Rogues. Yes, I do indeed lack dump stats, but I luckily have very good stat rolls. Would CON be the best canidate to take the hit since they 'should' be missing their attacks on me? You're going to face a few hard choices. Second question is how you see the character. If he's just using the strengths of the classes to sneak around and find stuff out then you can start as a Monk. If you want to be reasonable at opening locks and stuff, think about going Rogue to start. At lesat you can multiclass freely. I imagine I should start off as a rogue, since passing up all those initial skill points would be rather foolish ([8+int]x4)? Speaking of multiclassing, I think you have two viable choices for the race. Human or Halfling. These avoid xp penalties with this class combo. Personally I'd play a human for the extra skillpoint - you're going to be pushed for skillpoints. Whoops, sorry, I forgot to mention that my DM was doing away with multiclassing penalties. So my race selection isn't so narrow. For Monk bonus feats, take Stunning Fist and Combat Reflexes. Ah.. for some reason I thought stunning fists just came at first lvl on the class. Well, at least in my 3.0 version stunning attack is. I read something about fiery fists for the second bonus feat is supposed to be good so I was going to try that. Not sure where to find a list of good monk bonus feats though. I'd be aiming for a Rog 4 / Mnk 4 at 8th level and a Rog 8 / Mnk 12 at 20th. My only thought is, what benefit do I gain from going further into monk than rogue. At least the further I go into rogue I get more sneak attack, while still upping the unarmed damage... with monk I am just getting some nifty class abilities (+mov, +ac, +saves) and bonus feats. On another note, can you use weapon finesse for (unarmed)? Or is there a similar feat cuz THAT would be awesome! :D Oh, and tricks that let me sneak attack consistently would be cool. Edit: An edit to avoid making a reply to answer one question that occured while making this post. I'd say that's about as good as it gets. Bravo sir. The only thing I'd say on top of it is that if you don't mind having a spot of minmaxing, switch up to 3 points from charisma across to....well, whatever you value the most. Those are pretty nice rolls you've got there. Remember you've still got your extra point to spend at 4th to play with too. I am a bit torn on making CHA my dump stats mostly because of 2 really cool skills, Bluff and Use Magic Device. Both of which seem to have several uses both In and Out of combat. Disguise and intimidate are prolly decent, and I guess there is diplomacy for something.
mcnoo 01-23-07, 08:37 PM	Improved feint will give you all the sneak attack in the world, as will using tumble to get behind someone to flank them. As a sneak attacker, I also recommend carrying a heavy pick with you just in case you get a chance for a coup de grace. THAT gets messy. As for finesse unarmed, go for it, but with your high strength score it's not such a huge boon as it could be.
Richard_the_Garrulous 01-23-07, 08:38 PM	I would say go for 3 lvls rogue, 1 lvl monk to start out. Then you get the extra d6 of sneak attack damage. Also, NEVER make Con a dump stat, especially if you're going to be a melee fighter. While it's true that high level monks can have insane ACs, at low levels the lack of armor is hard to compensate for. But with that amazing wisdom and dexterity, it won't be so bad. As for money, check with your DM, but the standard gold for a 4th level PC is 5,400gp. I would recomend pouring most of that into a ring of protection and some (natural) armor bonuses. The rest can be spent on rogue tools and the like. As for taking lots of levels of monk, the increased movement and huge number of attacks means more flanking potential, and more SA per round. Weapon finesse does work for unarmed, and improved natural attack is a must for you. Finally, the SRD says a stunned creature loses it's dex bonus to AC, which means sneak attack! Once you get two attacks per round - hey wait! As a monk and with the stunning fist feat you can stun in the first flurry, and sneak attack in the second, all in one round. Even without that, a monk gets some nice boosts to movement which makes it easy to avoid provoking AoO and moving around to flank. Finally, you can wear armor, but I think it gets rid of the monk AC bonuses and flurry of blows.
pmurray@bigpond.com 01-23-07, 10:07 PM	Paladin/bard/druid, eh? Paladin - fighter/cleric Bard - rogue/wizard Druid - clerical magic. (He *does* have the spontaneous heal feat, right?) IMHO: These guys need a tank or a straight out arcane caster. Not another thief, and not another sub-optimal fighter.
pmurray@bigpond.com 01-23-07, 10:08 PM	You're going to face a few hard choices. Firstly, the two abilities Monks do not need - Int and Cha - are two that Rogues do need reasonable values in. Conversely, Monks cannot afford to take a poor Wis, traditionally a dump stat for Rogues. There's a feat that allows a monk to use Int in place of Wis for monk abilities.
DrHealex 01-23-07, 10:23 PM	I would say go for 3 lvls rogue, 1 lvl monk to start out. Then you get the extra d6 of sneak attack damage. Also, NEVER make Con a dump stat, especially if you're going to be a melee fighter. While it's true that high level monks can have insane ACs, at low levels the lack of armor is hard to compensate for. But with that amazing wisdom and dexterity, it won't be so bad. As for money, check with your DM, but the standard gold for a 4th level PC is 5,400gp. I would recomend pouring most of that into a ring of protection and some (natural) armor bonuses. The rest can be spent on rogue tools and the like. As for taking lots of levels of monk, the increased movement and huge number of attacks means more flanking potential, and more SA per round. More attacks? I didn't notice that. From what I saw flurry of blows simply made each attack you made 2 attacks at a penalty, so when you natural get another attack, you get 2 more, and so on(although eventually without penalty). Though I DID only get to see the 3.5 phb for only a bit. Nor did I notice that you could eventually get more than one SA per round, as opposed to just the day. Weapon finesse does work for unarmed, and improved natural attack is a must for you. Finally, the SRD says a stunned creature loses it's dex bonus to AC, which means sneak attack! Once you get two attacks per round - hey wait! As a monk and with the stunning fist feat you can stun in the first flurry, and sneak attack in the second, all in one round. Even without that, a monk gets some nice boosts to movement which makes it easy to avoid provoking AoO and moving around to flank. Finally, you can wear armor, but I think it gets rid of the monk AC bonuses and flurry of blows. Ugh, and the wis bonus to ac as well.. man thats pretty harsh. I guess no armor on MY back. Improved feint will give you all the sneak attack in the world, as will using tumble to get behind someone to flank them. As a sneak attacker, I also recommend carrying a heavy pick with you just in case you get a chance for a coup de grace. THAT gets messy. As for finesse unarmed, go for it, but with your high strength score it's not such a huge boon as it could be. Well, the ability scores haven't been set yet, I was thinking strength could be my dump stat (as in like 12 or 14), since dex will probably be the ability raised most often since it effects so many skills and ac, and with finesse, attack.
Merestil Haye 01-24-07, 10:25 AM	Yes, I do indeed lack dump stats, but I luckily have very good stat rolls. Would CON be the best canidate to take the hit since they 'should' be missing their attacks on me?Never dump Con; bonus hp are always good. Ah.. for some reason I thought stunning fists just came at first lvl on the class. Well, at least in my 3.0 version stunning attack is. I read something about fiery fists for the second bonus feat is supposed to be good so I was going to try that. Not sure where to find a list of good monk bonus feats though.Id did come free in 3.0. In 3.5 it is a feat. At first level the Monk gets a choice between Improved Grapple and Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. I always take SF unless the monk is utterly uninterested in ko'ing opponents. Mainly because you can take IG at any time if you want - but have to wait until 12th level to take Stunning Fist (assuming no multiclassing). Improved My only thought is, what benefit do I gain from going further into monk than rogue. At least the further I go into rogue I get more sneak attack, while still upping the unarmed damage... with monk I am just getting some nifty class abilities (+mov, +ac, +saves) and bonus feats.It's the class abilities. 9th gets you Improved Evasion and eliminates the Flurry penalty. 10th gives you Ki Strike (Lawful), 11th gives you total poison immunity and adds another Flurry attack. 12th nest you limited Dimension Door. For Rogue 9-12 you get +2d6 sneak attack, +2 on trap sense and a special ability. The last is equivalent to Improved Evasion (since you can get IEv with the special ability). Rogue gets more skillpoints, Monks more hp. On another note, can you use weapon finesse for (unarmed)? Or is there a similar feat cuz THAT would be awesome! :DWeapon Finesse works with a Monk's unarmed strike. I am a bit torn on making CHA my dump stats mostly because of 2 really cool skills, Bluff and Use Magic Device. Both of which seem to have several uses both In and Out of combat. Disguise and intimidate are prolly decent, and I guess there is diplomacy for something.I considered UMD - I wanted a higher Cha. It's the reason I didn't suggest using the 3-point shift from Cha to the 15 stat, getting you another 18. Might have more after rereading the thread. Added : Giving yourself 12 Str and 16 Cha opens the way for Weapon Finesse to be a very useful choice. The one downside is that you must damage the opponent in order to force a Stun save. Also, Grapple, Trip and Disarm all work off Strength so you'll need it later. You may be interpreting Flurry differently to 3.5 though. Using Flurry gives you one extra attack in the round, at the cost of -2 to all blows you make before the beginning of your next turn. The penalties reduce at 5th level and disappear at 9th. At 11th you get a second extra attack. All extra attacks at your highest bonus. (Iirc it changed radically going from 3.0 to 3.5; it's much easier to adjudicate in 3.5). You can't Stun more than once per round. Don't wear armour if you're a Monk. You lose fast movement, flurry and AC bonus. If you have no 3.5 PHB, then you might find an online version (http://www.d20srd.org/) handy. It's got all the information on the basic classes handy for you.
kelvinaw273 01-24-07, 03:39 PM	I have just recently been accepted into a campaign and am not "with the times" as it were. I am going to be the 4th man in a group of Paladin,bard,druid and I figured monk would fit in with them. I want to be a monk/rogue, since the Ascetic Rogue feat looked pretty cool (i <3 rogues). My rolls are 18/18/16/15/14/12 ,we rolled 4 die, rerolled 1s, dropped the low and I can subtract 3 points from one score an add it to another (though I haven't yet), I haven't put much thought into race, I start at Lvl 4, and I have to have this character done by friday. So I am requestin the help of the community to give me some nice build options. *note I don't even have a 3.5 phb, will friday though(still have 3.0 been quite awhile since i played DnD) Ok, my advice is take your first level as Rogue then take three levels as Monk. This allows you to capitalise on the Rogue's skills. Take Ascetic Rogue at a level 6 so that you can double back into rogue then if you want to. At level 3 take Weapon Finesse. Now stats ... STR 15 DEX 18 CON 14 INT 16 WIS 18 CHA 12 Rogues don't need high charisma, nor to monks. Both need Dex at the max, though, so one 18 goes there. To get the most of your skills a 16 in Int is good, you will have to rely on those rogue skills gained at 1st for a few levels, so make them count. You'll be able to do without armour once you get your Monk AC bonus, so don't worry about that. I recomend keeping a kama as your main weapons other than unarmed, but the rogues ability to use a bow should never be underestimated. Skills: Max out on the skills you can only take as a rogue at level 1. You can use the Monk skill points later to boost Tumble and the stealth/perception skills. Open Lock, Disable Device, UMD are some of the best skills for a rogue, and you will need to rest on them for a few levels. You have not stated, but I suspect you want a 'flanking fighter'. This works great for a monk/rogue: Monk is better in terms of AC, hp, and hitting power (using Flurry), rogue adds the sneak attack bonus. Play it like a ninja: sneak in, hit hard, make a quick escape. Your monk speed will out distance most foes. When in heavy combat support your fighters - flank their enemies and sneak attack, or else protect your mages. Remember that unlike a normal monk, you are better in offence (with sneak attack) than defence.
DrHealex 01-24-07, 05:24 PM	So I was thinking of picking some elven race(wild i guess), although I prolly could pick any of them and end up with the same score since they get some nifty racials and a bonus to dex. Then putting my ability scores like so STR 12 (I guess I can always pick up a belt of giants strength eventually) DEX 21, +1 for lvl 4, +2 for elf.... 24 Wooo! CON 14 INT 16, -2 for elf... sooo 14 WIS 18 CHA 12 Feats... Weapon finesse(unarmed), stunning fists for the 1st monk bonus, Ascetic Rogue(unless I go 1rogue/3 monk then what is better?), and I guess fiery fists for the 2nd monk bonus (when i get there). I am definately going to take rogue as my 1st lvl class, but I can't decide whether I should go 3rogue/1monk(extra sneak attack dice) or 1rogue/3monk(+mov,hp,eventually ac?) I dunno, anything else I am missing seeing.. better feats, certain skills to focus on. Yea, I might be thinking of a flanking fighter. I also imagine I will be the scout (i doubt the bard can do as well of a job that I could)
DrHealex 01-25-07, 09:31 PM	Wow, thanks for the link Merestil Haye! It REALLY helped out alot, man are things way different than my book. Ok, my advice is take your first level as Rogue then take three levels as Monk. This allows you to capitalise on the Rogue's skills. Take Ascetic Rogue at a level 6 so that you can double back into rogue then if you want to. At level 3 take Weapon Finesse. Now stats ... My only problem with that is at level 6 I would be able to take improved natural attack if i go 2/4,4/2, or 3/3... which I simply MUST have. As for equipment... i 'think' the DM said we had 10k... but I will have to check up on that tomarrow. If I do, I guess the ring of protection +2 for 8k will work. Unless of course, you think I should just buy several 'minor' increases to fill up my magic slots on my body. Left Hand finger - Ring of Protection +1 (2k) Right Hand finger = Ring of Protection +1 (2k) Neck = Amulet of Natural Amor +1 (2k) Wrists = Bracers of Armor +1 (1k) Bag of Holding I = (2.5k) since I am pretty weak for carrying anything(more than a light load and I take one hell of a dex bonus hit) With the rest of the money going to the usual [although that vestment of many styles sounded cool]
Merestil Haye 01-26-07, 08:48 AM	Wow, thanks for the link Merestil Haye! It REALLY helped out alot, man are things way different than my book.No problem. :) As for equipment... i 'think' the DM said we had 10k... but I will have to check up on that tomarrow. If I do, I guess the ring of protection +2 for 8k will work. Unless of course, you think I should just buy several 'minor' increases to fill up my magic slots on my body. Left Hand finger - Ring of Protection +1 (2k) Right Hand finger = Ring of Protection +1 (2k) Neck = Amulet of Natural Amor +1 (2k) Wrists = Bracers of Armor +1 (1k) Bag of Holding I = (2.5k) since I am pretty weak for carrying anything(more than a light load and I take one hell of a dex bonus hit) With the rest of the money going to the usual [although that vestment of many styles sounded cool]Two items which give the same type of bonus to armour class (or anything else really) do not stack together. Buy only one Ring of Protection. I do favour getting many small slots. But rather than the Amulet of Natural Armour, buy a Periapt of Wisdom +2 (you can pay for that with the money saved by not buying the Amulet and the second Ring). This increases Wis bonus and therefore your class AC bonus. The class bonus applies against all attacks; Natural Armour is ignored by touch and Incorporeal Touch attacks. You also get boosts to Will saves and Wis-based skills. I prefer class-based to Dex bonus to AC as you can be denied the latter far more easily than the former; however if you want to raise Dex thenGloves of Dex instead of the periapt do what you want better.
DrHealex 01-26-07, 04:36 PM	Yea, I didn't want my dex getting to large since there are ways of denying dex. I didn't even think about the wisdom bonus, that would be alot more useful. Didn't know two of the same bonus wouldn't stack, though. Thanks again, I'll be heading to the LGS today so I can browse through some books to see what else I can do with this guy, and talk with my would be DM. Thanks again to EVERYBODY, you were all a tremendous help. Of course any further suggestions for future equipment, feats, etc that I should look into would be much appreciated :D