Help with my druid please [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with my druid please [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PV
05-01-04, 10:36 PM Hello
It is my first time posting here and my first time as a Druid, and I would like some advice
I read a guy's "guide" (sorry, I forgot the name =() about druids and he said that at level 13 you can shape into a legendary ape. Is it indicated in any place that you CAN shape into a legendary ape or people just assume they can?

Also, he says you can use weapons and equips because apes are considered humanoids. Again, where does it say that?

Also, I have heard some people talking about animal companion having share spells. Where is this written? I have PHB 3.0, so maybe it is in 3.5, but if it is in 3.0 i am missing it.

Also, where does it mention that you can make Great Magic Fang permanent? In PHB 3.0 it only mentions Magic Fangm, and not the greater version.. has this changed in 3.5? And what would be the use of making it permanent, if later you are going to use a weapon as legendary ape?

If I use a weapon as a Legendary Ape, how many attacks will I get and what will the attack bonus be?

a) Use my BA bonus and make as many attacks as it allows but using the apes strenght
b) the same, but I get an off-hand attack because an ape attacks with both claws
c) I get my BAB attacks and a bite
d) My BAB attacks, a bite and a claw
e) only one(or two?) attacks with my weapon and a bite since the ape has only three attacks
f) something different

If I do get claws and bite attacks even when using a weapon, do I use my BAB or the ape's? and if I shape into a bear, for instance - which attack bonus do I use and how many attacks do I make?

I don't have access to the book of exalted deeds, so can someone please explain me with details the feat "exalted wild shape" ?

I know it is a lot of questions, but please do your best to answer them as they are driving me mad =( and the outcome of my druid will depend on your answers =P

And sorry for my poor grammar, english is not my native :\

Thanks :)

Paulo Vitor
ksbsnowowl
05-02-04, 12:56 AM Here is Yekoj's Druid Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=165279) for other readers who haven't seen it.

Originally posted by PV
he said that at level 13 you can shape into a legendary ape. Is it indicated in any place that you CAN shape into a legendary ape or people just assume they can? A legendary ape is of the type [animal]; as long as you meet the size (and in 3.5, HD) requirements, you can become one. This is a little more clear-cut in 3.5, which makes no distinction between 'normal' and Dire animals. Three point five wildshape is only limited by size and Hit Dice; if you can wildshape into the appropriate size and have as many druid levels as the animal does hit dice, you can wildshape into one.

Also, he says you can use weapons and equips because apes are considered humanoids. Again, where does it say that?You should read the rest of the thread (it's only three pages). This has been discussed, and it basically boils down to: Apes have human-like appendages/shape, thus they can use rings, wear necklaces, and wield weapons, just like a human could. It is slightly misleading, as humanoid is a type in D&D, but he was merely referring to the shape and form of the creature, not its type.

Also, I have heard some people talking about animal companion having share spells. Where is this written? I have PHB 3.0, so maybe it is in 3.5, but if it is in 3.0 i am missing it.Animal companions are completely different in 3.5. Have a look at the 3.5 System Reference Document (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35), or more specifically, the Classes I section (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/ClassesI.rtf) to read the write-up for the 3.5 druid and his companion. Basically you can only ever have one animal companion, and it can gain HD and abilities as you get higher in level (somewhat similar to how Familiars get stronger and gain abilities.)

Also, where does it mention that you can make Great Magic Fang permanent? It is listed directly with the spell description in 3.5. And what would be the use of making it permanent, if later you are going to use a weapon as legendary ape?Because there are other cool things you can turn into (especially once you get 3.5 Shapechange).

If I use a weapon as a Legendary Ape, how many attacks will I get and what will the attack bonus be?With this I'm unable to help you. I'd kind of like to know the answer myself, as I'm about to start a high-level druid in my first 3.5 game.

I don't have access to the book of exalted deeds, so can someone please explain me with details the feat "exalted wild shape" ?I don't have that book either, but if I'm not mistaken, it allows you to add the celestial template to your wildshapes, and I think it also allows you to wildshape into things like a Blink Dog and use all its Ex and Su abilities.

And sorry for my poor grammar, english is not my native :\
Hey, your english and grammar are much better than many of the people on these boards. I only wish I could master a second language so well.
Gilhaelith
05-02-04, 05:37 AM If I use a weapon as a Legendary Ape, how many attacks will I get and what will the attack bonus be?

I asked this same question somewhere (can't remember which thread). The answer was that a weapon is manufactured and any one using manufactured weapons get the normal BAB and all iterative attacks if you have a BAB of 6 or higher.

Example: A 16th lvl druid changing into a legendary Ape using a manufactured weapon would get +12/+7/+2 (add strengh and weapons bonuses) in a full round attack.

Not sure if this is correct, but it sounds logical.
PV
05-02-04, 10:24 AM Thanks for the help :)

And, on the above exemple, would I get a bite and a claw attack? Since Legendary Apes can attack with their other claw and they can bite, it seems unlogical to me that I can't use them just because I am using a weapon.. (and what if I shape into a bear but only have 1 attack with my BAB? will I be able to get all three?)

Thanks again :)

Paulo Vitor
ksbsnowowl
05-02-04, 10:37 AM Originally posted by PV
And, can you please explain me how 3.5 shapechange works? (at least what is different from the 3.0 version)
It's right there in the links I gave you.Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.
A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)
A druid can use this ability more times per day at 6th, 7th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level, as noted on Table: The Druid. In addition, she gains the ability to take the shape of a Large animal at 8th level, a Tiny animal at 11th level, and a Huge animal at 15th level.
The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level.
At 12th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a plant creature with the same size restrictions as for animal forms. (A druid can’t use this ability to take the form of a plant that isn’t a creature.)
At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type.
At 18th level, a druid becomes able to assume elemental form twice per day, and at 20th level she can do so three times per day. At 20th level, a druid may use this wild shape ability to change into a Huge elemental.
Basically, wildshape is now a supernatural ability, and as such it cannot be dispelled. However, it now has a duration of your druid level in hours (3.0 had no duration; you could turn into a wolf and stay that way for years if you chose to do so.) Wildshape is now restricted by HD/druid level. Druids now gain the ability to become plant creatures. Oh, and since they unwisely chose to base Wildshape upon Polymorph again, it has had some really stupid consequences. For example, you no longer gain the Exraordinary special qualities of the animal you turn into, so you don't gain a Wolf's scent (ie- no tracking for you!), neither do you gain a porpoises ability to hold its breath under water (so don't expect to go swimming under water in that form).

There's most of the changes, but there are probably a few I've forgotten.
Thorak
05-02-04, 04:44 PM A comment of the Legendary Ape; the druid has to be familiar with the critters he Wildshapes into. Since a Legendary animal is a unique creation made once in a blue moon to serve Nature's purposes, chances are incredibly slim that any PC druid would ever have even spoken with anyone who's caught a glimpse of it, let alone seen it himself. And even if he does see it, he needs to become 'familiar' with it, something that takes quite a bit more observation than a fleeting glance.
PV
05-02-04, 06:36 PM In MotW, it states that legendary animals are created by gods to serve as powerful druid's animal companions (doesnt it?) Well, what if I have a legendary ape as an animal companion? Is it familiar enough? ^^

so, anyone have an answer to the attacks question?
Maratly, The Silver
05-03-04, 03:07 AM wel...like some guy already said you could use your own bab, but it is possible for this to exchange any number of attacks from your bab and replace them with na attacks, but multiattack penalties still aplie

for instance first you attack with bab 12 with a scythe,
then you may chooze to exchange your second attack with your primary naturall attack, this is the attack with the highest attack bonus listed in the MM at the section of the creature your changing in, then for your third attack you may do the same with any secondary attack, and if you have bab-attacks left with any possible other natural attacks, however be aware that only one type of natural attack may be used in this matter every full round attack, and if you would replace one scythe attack with for instance your claw attacks then you gain ALL claw attacks listed in the MM

However it seems more logical for me myself as a dm that they loze natural attacks such as claws as long as they want to wield weapons...
PV
05-03-04, 10:24 AM but why would using a weapon stop me from bitting?
Maratly, The Silver
05-03-04, 11:25 AM for the ****ing love of all ****ing gods shut up, they ar called rules, and if you think ofit a humanoid is basicly singleminded if its busy slashing with swords r something it can't possibly bite at the same time, in order to BITE you spend the time of one slash to BITE
JUST ACCEPT IT
PV
05-03-04, 12:28 PM then you wouldnt be able to bite and use claws at the same time
^^ I see no difference from slashing with a sword or hitting with a claw.. maybe its just me.

Also, if you don't want to answer, its ok, just shut up and go do something else. No one is obligating you to post. But, if you DO post, post something constructive.

By the way, can you provide the link or the page where they say you cannot bite while attacking with a weapon? I have never seen it.

Thanks.

Paulo Vitor
Thorak
05-03-04, 01:34 PM Originally posted by Maratly, The Silver
wel...like some guy already said you could use your own bab, but it is possible for this to exchange any number of attacks from your bab and replace them with na attacks, but multiattack penalties still aplie

for instance first you attack with bab 12 with a scythe,
then you may chooze to exchange your second attack with your primary naturall attack, this is the attack with the highest attack bonus listed in the MM at the section of the creature your changing in, then for your third attack you may do the same with any secondary attack, and if you have bab-attacks left with any possible other natural attacks, however be aware that only one type of natural attack may be used in this matter every full round attack, and if you would replace one scythe attack with for instance your claw attacks then you gain ALL claw attacks listed in the MM

However it seems more logical for me myself as a dm that they loze natural attacks such as claws as long as they want to wield weapons...

This is incorrect. When combining natural weapons and manufactured weapons, you make your iterative attacks as you would normally with the manufactured weapon, and then you get the natural weapon attacks additionally at a -5 penalty to attack. And you can't attack with the natural weapons on the limb wielding the manufactured weapon.

A critter with a natural claw/claw/bite routine and a BAB of +12 would, for example, get the following attacks if wielding a longsword;
+12/+7/+2 with the longsword
+7/+7 claw/bite. The other claw is busy wielding the sword.

For a total BAB list of +12/+7/+7/+7/+2. Sword/Claw/Sword/Bite/Sword. The order of the middle three being insignificant, I just thought that looked neater.
Gilhaelith
05-03-04, 02:10 PM I disagree. Using your iterative take a full round. If your only using a weapon you would get +12/+7/+2. If your using your weapon and natural attach you would get the normal TWF penalties (+10/+10/+5/+0). This is due to the fact that your using a manufactured weapon IMO. If I'm wrong please correct me.

A critter with a natural claw/claw/bite routine and a BAB of +12 would, for example, get the following attacks if wielding a longsword;
+12/+7/+2 with the longsword
+7/+7 claw/bite. The other claw is busy wielding the sword.

For a total BAB list of +12/+7/+7/+7/+2. Sword/Claw/Sword/Bite/Sword. The order of the middle three being insignificant, I just thought that looked neater.

If you are correct there is still one mistake. It should be +7/+2 claw/bite instead of +7/+7. So the total BAB would be +12/+7/+7/+2/+2.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
05-03-04, 02:11 PM Originally posted by Maratly, The Silver
for the ****ing love of all ****ing gods shut up, they ar called rules, and if you think ofit a humanoid is basicly singleminded if its busy slashing with swords r something it can't possibly bite at the same time, in order to BITE you spend the time of one slash to BITE
JUST ACCEPT IT

Your arrogance is astounding.

Anyways, you can use a bite attack when using a weapon.
PV
05-03-04, 03:00 PM Thanks for the SERIOUS (cough, cough) help guys :)
Now I will just have to convince my DM of that :rolleyes:
Thorak
05-03-04, 11:15 PM Originally posted by Gilhaelith
I disagree. Using your iterative take a full round. If your only using a weapon you would get +12/+7/+2. If your using your weapon and natural attach you would get the normal TWF penalties (+10/+10/+5/+0). This is due to the fact that your using a manufactured weapon IMO. If I'm wrong please correct me.

If you are correct there is still one mistake. It should be +7/+2 claw/bite instead of +7/+7. So the total BAB would be +12/+7/+7/+2/+2.

I'm not incorrect. I'll quote from the 3.5 Monstrous Manual:
The remaining weapons are secondary, and attacks with them are made with a -5 to the attack roll, no matter how many there are.

So if I'm right about how manufactured and natural weapons combine, then both claw and bite are at +7/+7, because that's -5 from the BAB of 12. Now for my first point, from the glossary in the back of the MM, page 311, under Natural Weapons:
[quote]Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature's description indicates otherwise . . . and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature's primary natural weapon.[/i]

Again, I'm right. You get your manufactured weapon attacks just like any other character as your primary attacks. And then you can attack with any and all natural weapons you have, save for those wielding the actual weapon, since there's no way to claw someone when the claw is holding a sword. And those natural weapon attacks all only take -5 to hit, period. And this can be reduced to -2 with the Multiattack feat.

If you only use a manufactured weapon with a BAB of +12, you get three attacks at +12/+7/+2. If you have any natural weapons not wielding that manufactured weapon, you can attack with all of them at +7. Whether it's 0, 1, or 50.

Feel free to disagree, but that's how natural weapons work. If we're going by the rules as they're written, I'm right. If you want to disagree and houserule, feel free, but it would have to be a houserule; the rules on combining natural weapons and manufactured ones are clear, and you're incorrect about how they work.

Any more questions?
Gilhaelith
05-04-04, 06:15 AM Like I said correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks for clearing that up for me. :)

I was using MM 3.0 and there they say manufactured weapons follow the same rules as characters, including multiple attacks and TWF penalties.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PV 05-01-04, 10:36 PM	Hello It is my first time posting here and my first time as a Druid, and I would like some advice I read a guy's "guide" (sorry, I forgot the name =() about druids and he said that at level 13 you can shape into a legendary ape. Is it indicated in any place that you CAN shape into a legendary ape or people just assume they can? Also, he says you can use weapons and equips because apes are considered humanoids. Again, where does it say that? Also, I have heard some people talking about animal companion having share spells. Where is this written? I have PHB 3.0, so maybe it is in 3.5, but if it is in 3.0 i am missing it. Also, where does it mention that you can make Great Magic Fang permanent? In PHB 3.0 it only mentions Magic Fangm, and not the greater version.. has this changed in 3.5? And what would be the use of making it permanent, if later you are going to use a weapon as legendary ape? If I use a weapon as a Legendary Ape, how many attacks will I get and what will the attack bonus be? a) Use my BA bonus and make as many attacks as it allows but using the apes strenght b) the same, but I get an off-hand attack because an ape attacks with both claws c) I get my BAB attacks and a bite d) My BAB attacks, a bite and a claw e) only one(or two?) attacks with my weapon and a bite since the ape has only three attacks f) something different If I do get claws and bite attacks even when using a weapon, do I use my BAB or the ape's? and if I shape into a bear, for instance - which attack bonus do I use and how many attacks do I make? I don't have access to the book of exalted deeds, so can someone please explain me with details the feat "exalted wild shape" ? I know it is a lot of questions, but please do your best to answer them as they are driving me mad =( and the outcome of my druid will depend on your answers =P And sorry for my poor grammar, english is not my native :\ Thanks :) Paulo Vitor
ksbsnowowl 05-02-04, 12:56 AM	Here is Yekoj's Druid Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=165279) for other readers who haven't seen it. Originally posted by PV he said that at level 13 you can shape into a legendary ape. Is it indicated in any place that you CAN shape into a legendary ape or people just assume they can? A legendary ape is of the type [animal]; as long as you meet the size (and in 3.5, HD) requirements, you can become one. This is a little more clear-cut in 3.5, which makes no distinction between 'normal' and Dire animals. Three point five wildshape is only limited by size and Hit Dice; if you can wildshape into the appropriate size and have as many druid levels as the animal does hit dice, you can wildshape into one. Also, he says you can use weapons and equips because apes are considered humanoids. Again, where does it say that?You should read the rest of the thread (it's only three pages). This has been discussed, and it basically boils down to: Apes have human-like appendages/shape, thus they can use rings, wear necklaces, and wield weapons, just like a human could. It is slightly misleading, as humanoid is a type in D&D, but he was merely referring to the shape and form of the creature, not its type. Also, I have heard some people talking about animal companion having share spells. Where is this written? I have PHB 3.0, so maybe it is in 3.5, but if it is in 3.0 i am missing it.Animal companions are completely different in 3.5. Have a look at the 3.5 System Reference Document (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35), or more specifically, the Classes I section (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/ClassesI.rtf) to read the write-up for the 3.5 druid and his companion. Basically you can only ever have one animal companion, and it can gain HD and abilities as you get higher in level (somewhat similar to how Familiars get stronger and gain abilities.) Also, where does it mention that you can make Great Magic Fang permanent? It is listed directly with the spell description in 3.5. And what would be the use of making it permanent, if later you are going to use a weapon as legendary ape?Because there are other cool things you can turn into (especially once you get 3.5 Shapechange). If I use a weapon as a Legendary Ape, how many attacks will I get and what will the attack bonus be?With this I'm unable to help you. I'd kind of like to know the answer myself, as I'm about to start a high-level druid in my first 3.5 game. I don't have access to the book of exalted deeds, so can someone please explain me with details the feat "exalted wild shape" ?I don't have that book either, but if I'm not mistaken, it allows you to add the celestial template to your wildshapes, and I think it also allows you to wildshape into things like a Blink Dog and use all its Ex and Su abilities. And sorry for my poor grammar, english is not my native :\ Hey, your english and grammar are much better than many of the people on these boards. I only wish I could master a second language so well.
Gilhaelith 05-02-04, 05:37 AM	If I use a weapon as a Legendary Ape, how many attacks will I get and what will the attack bonus be? I asked this same question somewhere (can't remember which thread). The answer was that a weapon is manufactured and any one using manufactured weapons get the normal BAB and all iterative attacks if you have a BAB of 6 or higher. Example: A 16th lvl druid changing into a legendary Ape using a manufactured weapon would get +12/+7/+2 (add strengh and weapons bonuses) in a full round attack. Not sure if this is correct, but it sounds logical.
PV 05-02-04, 10:24 AM	Thanks for the help :) And, on the above exemple, would I get a bite and a claw attack? Since Legendary Apes can attack with their other claw and they can bite, it seems unlogical to me that I can't use them just because I am using a weapon.. (and what if I shape into a bear but only have 1 attack with my BAB? will I be able to get all three?) Thanks again :) Paulo Vitor
ksbsnowowl 05-02-04, 10:37 AM	Originally posted by PV And, can you please explain me how 3.5 shapechange works? (at least what is different from the 3.0 version) It's right there in the links I gave you.Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.) A druid can use this ability more times per day at 6th, 7th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level, as noted on Table: The Druid. In addition, she gains the ability to take the shape of a Large animal at 8th level, a Tiny animal at 11th level, and a Huge animal at 15th level. The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level. At 12th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a plant creature with the same size restrictions as for animal forms. (A druid can’t use this ability to take the form of a plant that isn’t a creature.) At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type. At 18th level, a druid becomes able to assume elemental form twice per day, and at 20th level she can do so three times per day. At 20th level, a druid may use this wild shape ability to change into a Huge elemental. Basically, wildshape is now a supernatural ability, and as such it cannot be dispelled. However, it now has a duration of your druid level in hours (3.0 had no duration; you could turn into a wolf and stay that way for years if you chose to do so.) Wildshape is now restricted by HD/druid level. Druids now gain the ability to become plant creatures. Oh, and since they unwisely chose to base Wildshape upon Polymorph again, it has had some really stupid consequences. For example, you no longer gain the Exraordinary special qualities of the animal you turn into, so you don't gain a Wolf's scent (ie- no tracking for you!), neither do you gain a porpoises ability to hold its breath under water (so don't expect to go swimming under water in that form). There's most of the changes, but there are probably a few I've forgotten.
Thorak 05-02-04, 04:44 PM	A comment of the Legendary Ape; the druid has to be familiar with the critters he Wildshapes into. Since a Legendary animal is a unique creation made once in a blue moon to serve Nature's purposes, chances are incredibly slim that any PC druid would ever have even spoken with anyone who's caught a glimpse of it, let alone seen it himself. And even if he does see it, he needs to become 'familiar' with it, something that takes quite a bit more observation than a fleeting glance.
PV 05-02-04, 06:36 PM	In MotW, it states that legendary animals are created by gods to serve as powerful druid's animal companions (doesnt it?) Well, what if I have a legendary ape as an animal companion? Is it familiar enough? ^^ so, anyone have an answer to the attacks question?
Maratly, The Silver 05-03-04, 03:07 AM	wel...like some guy already said you could use your own bab, but it is possible for this to exchange any number of attacks from your bab and replace them with na attacks, but multiattack penalties still aplie for instance first you attack with bab 12 with a scythe, then you may chooze to exchange your second attack with your primary naturall attack, this is the attack with the highest attack bonus listed in the MM at the section of the creature your changing in, then for your third attack you may do the same with any secondary attack, and if you have bab-attacks left with any possible other natural attacks, however be aware that only one type of natural attack may be used in this matter every full round attack, and if you would replace one scythe attack with for instance your claw attacks then you gain ALL claw attacks listed in the MM However it seems more logical for me myself as a dm that they loze natural attacks such as claws as long as they want to wield weapons...
PV 05-03-04, 10:24 AM	but why would using a weapon stop me from bitting?
Maratly, The Silver 05-03-04, 11:25 AM	for the **ing love of all **ing gods shut up, they ar called rules, and if you think ofit a humanoid is basicly singleminded if its busy slashing with swords r something it can't possibly bite at the same time, in order to BITE you spend the time of one slash to BITE JUST ACCEPT IT
PV 05-03-04, 12:28 PM	then you wouldnt be able to bite and use claws at the same time ^^ I see no difference from slashing with a sword or hitting with a claw.. maybe its just me. Also, if you don't want to answer, its ok, just shut up and go do something else. No one is obligating you to post. But, if you DO post, post something constructive. By the way, can you provide the link or the page where they say you cannot bite while attacking with a weapon? I have never seen it. Thanks. Paulo Vitor
Thorak 05-03-04, 01:34 PM	Originally posted by Maratly, The Silver wel...like some guy already said you could use your own bab, but it is possible for this to exchange any number of attacks from your bab and replace them with na attacks, but multiattack penalties still aplie for instance first you attack with bab 12 with a scythe, then you may chooze to exchange your second attack with your primary naturall attack, this is the attack with the highest attack bonus listed in the MM at the section of the creature your changing in, then for your third attack you may do the same with any secondary attack, and if you have bab-attacks left with any possible other natural attacks, however be aware that only one type of natural attack may be used in this matter every full round attack, and if you would replace one scythe attack with for instance your claw attacks then you gain ALL claw attacks listed in the MM However it seems more logical for me myself as a dm that they loze natural attacks such as claws as long as they want to wield weapons... This is incorrect. When combining natural weapons and manufactured weapons, you make your iterative attacks as you would normally with the manufactured weapon, and then you get the natural weapon attacks additionally at a -5 penalty to attack. And you can't attack with the natural weapons on the limb wielding the manufactured weapon. A critter with a natural claw/claw/bite routine and a BAB of +12 would, for example, get the following attacks if wielding a longsword; +12/+7/+2 with the longsword +7/+7 claw/bite. The other claw is busy wielding the sword. For a total BAB list of +12/+7/+7/+7/+2. Sword/Claw/Sword/Bite/Sword. The order of the middle three being insignificant, I just thought that looked neater.
Gilhaelith 05-03-04, 02:10 PM	I disagree. Using your iterative take a full round. If your only using a weapon you would get +12/+7/+2. If your using your weapon and natural attach you would get the normal TWF penalties (+10/+10/+5/+0). This is due to the fact that your using a manufactured weapon IMO. If I'm wrong please correct me. A critter with a natural claw/claw/bite routine and a BAB of +12 would, for example, get the following attacks if wielding a longsword; +12/+7/+2 with the longsword +7/+7 claw/bite. The other claw is busy wielding the sword. For a total BAB list of +12/+7/+7/+7/+2. Sword/Claw/Sword/Bite/Sword. The order of the middle three being insignificant, I just thought that looked neater. If you are correct there is still one mistake. It should be +7/+2 claw/bite instead of +7/+7. So the total BAB would be +12/+7/+7/+2/+2.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 05-03-04, 02:11 PM	Originally posted by Maratly, The Silver for the **ing love of all **ing gods shut up, they ar called rules, and if you think ofit a humanoid is basicly singleminded if its busy slashing with swords r something it can't possibly bite at the same time, in order to BITE you spend the time of one slash to BITE JUST ACCEPT IT Your arrogance is astounding. Anyways, you can use a bite attack when using a weapon.
PV 05-03-04, 03:00 PM	Thanks for the SERIOUS (cough, cough) help guys :) Now I will just have to convince my DM of that :rolleyes:
Thorak 05-03-04, 11:15 PM	Originally posted by Gilhaelith I disagree. Using your iterative take a full round. If your only using a weapon you would get +12/+7/+2. If your using your weapon and natural attach you would get the normal TWF penalties (+10/+10/+5/+0). This is due to the fact that your using a manufactured weapon IMO. If I'm wrong please correct me. If you are correct there is still one mistake. It should be +7/+2 claw/bite instead of +7/+7. So the total BAB would be +12/+7/+7/+2/+2. I'm not incorrect. I'll quote from the 3.5 Monstrous Manual: The remaining weapons are secondary, and attacks with them are made with a -5 to the attack roll, no matter how many there are. So if I'm right about how manufactured and natural weapons combine, then both claw and bite are at +7/+7, because that's -5 from the BAB of 12. Now for my first point, from the glossary in the back of the MM, page 311, under Natural Weapons: [quote]Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature's description indicates otherwise . . . and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature's primary natural weapon.[/i] Again, I'm right. You get your manufactured weapon attacks just like any other character as your primary attacks. And then you can attack with any and all natural weapons you have, save for those wielding the actual weapon, since there's no way to claw someone when the claw is holding a sword. And those natural weapon attacks all only take -5 to hit, period. And this can be reduced to -2 with the Multiattack feat. If you only use a manufactured weapon with a BAB of +12, you get three attacks at +12/+7/+2. If you have any natural weapons not wielding that manufactured weapon, you can attack with all of them at +7. Whether it's 0, 1, or 50. Feel free to disagree, but that's how natural weapons work. If we're going by the rules as they're written, I'm right. If you want to disagree and houserule, feel free, but it would have to be a houserule; the rules on combining natural weapons and manufactured ones are clear, and you're incorrect about how they work. Any more questions?
Gilhaelith 05-04-04, 06:15 AM	Like I said correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks for clearing that up for me. :) I was using MM 3.0 and there they say manufactured weapons follow the same rules as characters, including multiple attacks and TWF penalties.