Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LeePriest 01-20-05, 04:38 PM	I am an evil ninja (CV) hired by good elves to infiltrate a group of evil party members and steel the artifact that they carry. The artifact could change the course of the war between good and evil so the Elves want it in their posession. It causes damage to good people which is why an evil person had to be employed. Now my character has been following along as a scribe, cataloging the events of their travels so that I can make their tales infamous and timeless. Armed with only my dagger and a hand crossbow I usually hide during battles makeing sudden strikes from the bushes with my hand crossbow. Appearing mostly useless in battle and moreso useful for negotiating I hope to give the group the impression that i am no threat even if i was to turn. The group is now a level 10, I think i will wait until level 12 before I turn. The evasion ability will really help incase the pesky mage begins shooting fireballs at me. I'm just mostly curious if there are any things I can buy to prepare myself to fight against some PCs when the time comes. I am saving my highest DC con based poisons for them, other than that I'm not exactly sure what else. I wanna work their weaknesses. There is: A Cleric A Sorcerer (illusionist) A TWF with two elven thinblades and improved criticals An Assasin, who I have recruited to help me, but I may just end up killing him aswell. Any thoughts?
jnrhayz 01-20-05, 04:47 PM	You need a ring of sustenance. You only have to sleep for two hours and you don't need food or water. It prevents you from being poisoned and reduces the amount of time you are vulnerable to others. Kill the cleric around 11th level while he is sleeping. He is your biggest threat. Then slowly begin poisoning the food supply to weaken the group. At night, sneak around and poison everyone's supplies (even your own, just in case they check it won't matter because you won't need to eat anyway). When they are weak, kill them all (including the other assassin). Take the artifact and then collect your reward. Oh yeah, something that hides surface thoughts also in case they try to read peoples minds about who poisoned the food. Also, if you could leave the poison with the fighter or someone else to cause more internal conflict would be great also.
LeePriest 01-20-05, 10:49 PM	Problem being they all have rings of sustenance already, so it makes them fairly difficult to poison through food. Contact poisons would work but i figure the new plan will be to drop each of them a little info of why i am here and try and get them all to not trust each other. Then if it comes to a firefight no one will know who has their back. And in that time I'll leave the assassin to fight while i slip away. Ethereal Escape.
danielinthewolvesden 01-20-05, 10:56 PM	You do understand that this sort of thing can end freindships and get you ostrasized from some groups, right? Just so as you know.
Saurenda 01-21-05, 12:53 AM	You do understand that this sort of thing can end freindships and get you ostrasized from some groups, right? Just so as you know. I haven't know people who were tha immature in the games I play. Generally when another of us kills a character it's a moment of hand shaking, and a few of creating another, otherwise we can get a rez. A redwizard party member, LE said in our group he'd kill us all after we go enough paty wealth so he could become a litch. IT scared me when he said it , it was the first time and I didn't expect it from a friend. After a week when I had homework from hell and tests it came game day and I just didn't care one way o another anymore, the game was fun and I went with a vauge idea of what to do. The friend then confessed he wouldn't do anythign like that, and was only joking. Even if he wasn't, ending a friendship over Player killing is silly. The type of friends one makes for life are important more so than any good character. Besides sometimes character deaths are hilarious =D Enjoy them as you do character life.
Kulthos 01-21-05, 01:11 AM	You do understand that this sort of thing can end freindships and get you ostrasized from some groups, right? Just so as you know. When I saw the poster wanted help with a PC killer, my original thoughts were "Stop inviting him to your game" and "Find a different group that doesn't have PC killers."
danielinthewolvesden 01-21-05, 04:40 AM	I haven't know people who were tha immature in the games I play. After a week when I had homework from hell and tests it came game day and I just didn't care one way o another anymore, the game was fun and I went with a vauge idea of what to do. Even if he wasn't, ending a friendship over Player killing is silly. The type of friends one makes for life are important more so than any good character. Well, I personally haven't had "homework" in some 3 decades- and neither do any of those I game with. So perhaps "immature" isn't the word you were looking for. :P The thing is- many of us put a lot into a PC's background and roleplaying- and we don't want some kill-crazy kid gettings his rocks off by being a "PC killer" and ruining the dozens of hours we spent playing and researching that character. Sure, there are games and campaigns were such is expected and commonplace. But since in every other game it violates the "unspoken rule" ("D&D is a game, we are here to have fun. Thus, we will let yor and your PC play so we can all have fun.")- in a way it's cheating. Now- maybe not in our OP's game- like I said- in some campaigns the "unspoken rule" is replaced by "beware- and don't trust anyone". In that case, no one in their right mind would let anyone join the party without Divinations, etc. In theory, every sane party of Adventurers really does this stuff, but to speed up game time, it isn't even mentioned (like going to the privy). No player likes to sit there all night long twiddling his thumbs while the party checks him out- nor do the players or the DM want to waste several hours of table-time every time a new player/PC joins up. So either the cleric is stupid, or the ninja already has his cover blown- by a diety. OR- the players are playing by the "unspoken rule" in which case they will get upset- and with justification... to some degree. After all, it is so easy "Oh great Bane- do we trust the new scribe?" "Dreezel-drazzle-dreezle-dum, if you do that, you'll be dumb. If you want to do your part on my altar you'll put his heart." Cleric to Ninja next battle- "Hey I'll cast bears endurance on you! Oops- that was Hold Person. No save, eh- expecting a boosty spell. Too bad, so sad- OH Great Bane- it's for you!"... coup de grace. The Ninja should already be dead. The only rational reason why he isn't is that the DM likely hasn't explained to the players that PK is allowed in that campaign- since it generally isn't. If the DM has explained that PKing is OK in that campaign- then all bets are off, and please kill the cleric ASAP- as you'll improve the Darwinian gene pool by killing that fool.
LeePriest 01-21-05, 04:48 AM	I don't really think of ruining the characters or their backgrounds. Basically I'm planning on winning. I've been given a task, a task to reclaim this artifact. If I don't kill them then they kill me, so I'd like to exploit their weaknesses and catch them off gaurd. Its not like I plan to kill every character in every game I've ever played. Plus it will be fun showing them how the most non-threatening guy in the game could off them all one by one with a few ethereal strikes. I won't lose any friends over it, we'll start a new game with a new DM and all have new characters. And plus I'm the new guy and they don't think I'm good at makeing characters as I've been playing just less than six months. So I believe I will prove them wrong and end this adventure with me on top. I really have no other choice but to win.
FreeTheSlaves 01-21-05, 05:21 AM	Somehow the elves have set you up. You are a self confessed chaotic evil person and you think that they will trust you to hand over an artefact? An Artefact!? Man, they just want you to kill your evil buddies and then hand yourself into them for swift justice. And they say good people fight fair.
anders 01-21-05, 06:40 AM	Basically I'm planning on winning I really have no other choice but to win. I just feel sad.
cambric 01-21-05, 07:30 AM	Danielinthewolvesden is right...there is a "unspoken" rule about PC killing!! And I'm with him, I've been playing D&D for over 20 years...and we all get a long great, but let me tell you how that would go down if ANY one of us tried to kill another PC: OUT OF THE GROUP!! Sure, we would remain friends "outside" the game...but if you think, for one second, that you would be invited back...yeah right. Though, I stand corrected on that: I would invite you back...and you would last...oh...about 3 sessions, just enough for you to think you're "ok with the group", then your pathetic PC would die...painfully...and yes, it would be a "pathetic" one because you would have everyone against you. (I have yet to encounter ANY pc of equal level, no matter what the class, be able to handle 5-6 other PC's against them...so yeah, you wouldn't last.) D&D isn't about "winning at all costs", it's a game. And the PC's are getting to the point where they are getting some good abilities...and then to be killed...by a PC!! I agree, some of our character's deaths were memorable...hilarious...sad...frustratin g...but they died at the risk of adventure: Not from their own group. As what Kulthos said, I thought this was about how to stop someone in a group that does that, my answer was going to be: KICK THIER NO GOOD BUTT OUT!! Sorry...not going to help you...I really hope that cleric isn't this stupid or naive...and I can NOT believe the DM is allowing this... :confused:
FFTGeist 01-21-05, 07:35 AM	I say congrats to you sir/ma'am. Player killing is usually looked down upon in most games of D&D. What i saw when i read your post was the same reason everyone else says you shouldn't kill. It was part of your background, and you know what your supposed to do, or want to do if thats the case. Im hoping the DM atleast knows of this. All i have to say is i wish you the best of luck with your slaughtering :-D
e-z0r 01-21-05, 08:08 AM	Just stab them in their sleep? What's the big problem with all this stupid stuff about "Poisoning" and "distrust" and such.. You just stick a dagger in their throat while they're asleep. Silent, effective, simple.
Shard of Suzail 01-21-05, 08:32 AM	I want to find this gm and smack him round with the idiot bat. I wrote a big article all about this and it never ceases to amaze and horrify me when i see a gm setting his players up to kill one another and cause conflict. I mean, what is the logic of this kind of game? Gm - "George, the scribe, is now part of your group" George - "I kill the party in their sleep" Party - "Ok then, lets all roll up new characters!" Either the gm wants you to succeed, in which case the party is killed. Or he wants you to fail, in which case you are killed. Either option strikes me as the wrong one and a time waster. To make matters worse, if they do kill you, they are actually justified in killing every other character you ever make. Not due to metagaming, but because they can decide that their party needs no new extras as they are a risk. Thus, by playing this character, you may well be losing your future place in the group. Our party, for instance, no longer accepts rogues, for this very reason. We likewise, only take on people whose alignments and backgrounds we can verify with magic or by directly talking to the gods about it and using divine means. We likewise do not accept elves of any sort. A gm needs to be careful of this kind of messing around. Once a group gets stung once or twice, they start setting their own rules for the campaign and character creation, taking it out of his hands. Wisely so.
Falkus 01-21-05, 08:40 AM	Any thoughts? Don't bother with any sneaking around or poisoning. Just fight them all at once in the middle of the day. It's the best possible plan, I guarantee it.
jnrhayz 01-21-05, 09:28 AM	Well, if they all have rings of sustenance, I would just go for the kill them in there sleep. Maybe just the guy carrying the artifact and then escape. Maybe the other assasin since you told him your plan. You shouldn't have told him your plan. So now he has to die also. Kill him first, then the guy carrying the artifact and then escape. As for killing other PCs, it is an evil campaign, every character is evil, and if they don't have any "houserule" about killing each other in an evil game, then I say have fun. I enjoy the characters I create, but I always get mad when I know there is a situation where my character should be dead and the DM cheated to keep me alive. It is a game, and some people don't like it when there characters die, but I like the realism as much as the fantasy and people die. Even in fantasy books. The thing to remember is that the character is only real in your imagination. You can re-create it any time you want. Now, I also realize, some of you play in games that have lasted 5+ years. I don't think that situation applies here mainly because it is an evil game. Almost every evil game I have heard of ended with some of the characters killing each other because one or more wanted more power. Let's try to keep things in perspective. Evil people do Evil things.
LeePriest 01-21-05, 03:15 PM	I really think that people are applying their own groups to my situation which is what is giving you such a bad review of the post. This isn't supposed to be a game that lasts a lifetime. 2 of the five members have already died during the adventure and came in as new characters. It has a limited life. Like a video game, they have an objective and so do i. I'm an evil person and like someone else posted, evil people will do evil things. We're all friends and after this happens we will start up a new adventure and everyone will be fine with that. So don't judge the situation based on the fact that you feel in your game you would be mad if someone killed your character cause for this particular game it won't be as heart wrenching as you've made it out to be.
danielinthewolvesden 01-21-05, 03:27 PM	My freind- I said exactly that. If you DM made it clear that PKing was OK in this campaign- then go right ahead. It could even be a fun little interlude before you go back to a more long term, serious roleplying campaign. Enjoy! But if the DM has given that out as a clear ground rule- I can't understand wny your PC is still alive- unless they are waiting to find just the right altar of Set/Bane/Iuz to cut your heart out on. :confused: OTOH- if your DM hasn't made that clear- he has screwed up big time, and he needs to rectify this at once. If he won't then either you should make it clear OOC, or stay your hand. Otherwise- in my book, you're cheating. The fact that PC are dying doesn't justify you killing more. Evil PC's do not as a rule- attack their own companions. Only insane Sociopaths turn on those that they trust/trust them. But again- if your DM has "fully informed" the group- then do your worst.
Kulthos 01-21-05, 05:07 PM	Evil PC's do not as a rule- attack their own companions. Only insane Sociopaths turn on those that they trust/trust them. I get tired of the "Evil characters always turn on each-other" myth. I have had more trouble with Paladins turing on neutral members of the party than evil characters turning on each other.
e-z0r 01-21-05, 05:52 PM	I find paladin ethics dubious myself. Paladin: This creature is clearly a spawn of evil! DIEEEE!! Goblin: EEk! I mean.. Some think killing stuff 'cause they think differently is evil. Obviously not the D&D world, 'cause paladins are somehow the shining beacons of goody goodness. I find it somehow akin to thinking that christian religious yahoos are Lawful Good. Sure, kill all the gay folk (or at least throw them out of the country) 'cause we think it's bad. Ain't we good? We're keeping decadence away! Violent movies: We say Arnie is the good guy for somehow saving his loved ones or saving the world or whatever the heck he's doing.. What we basically miss is that the content of these movies is that the Strong hero kills all those weaker than him to further his goals. But hey, it's great, 'cause he's the GOOD GUY. We should throw a party for him for shooting all those people. A good character is just an evil character who happens to be evil in a way that is acceptable by the society. Imagine a completely darwinian society - where it would be believed that removing the weak will eventually serve to purify the genepool and create a greater, stronger, more beautiful race. Wouldn't your chaotic evil character now be considered chaotic good? Good and evil are simply attributes made to depict how well a person fits the mores of the society. What's the alignment of a society who believes that those who think differently should be killed, I ask? Slay all those ugly monsters! Kill all the ones who worship the wrong church! Really. This is a pointless post. Congratulations to the fool who read this from beginning to end: you just wasted a good lot of your time. I really haven't answered any of the questions raised. Heheehe.
lostinabook247 01-21-05, 09:34 PM	I don't really want to get into this debate, as I have no experience dealing with evil parties, nor do I particularly wish to have any. But when you say you've been "given a mission" does that more or less mean that the DM has told you to kill the other PCs, and therefore knows that some inter-party combat is going to occur?
Shard of Suzail 01-22-05, 09:09 AM	In film and book, evil thugs, ie the henchmen, tend to turn on eachother easily. Thus, the orcs and uruks in lord of the rings have constant bouts of infighting (though it should be noted that most times, this is not subtle and is easily broken up). Evil heroes, ie player character villains, are a cut above this and tend, in film and book, to turn on eachother only at dramatic moments. Thus, they will catch an opponent at a time of massive weakness (say, after their plans fall apart) and will then restore the "strength of evil" by gloating, killing or exiling them and then taking charge. Usually, when an evil hero kills another evil hero in a thug like way, the effect is rendered useless and doesnt do the intended job. Evil heroes have to do the transfer of power in a dramatic way for it to be truly effective, often as the culmination of some massive planned seizure of control. In evil parties, it must be remembered that the player characters are heroes and thus fall into this higher category. Killing the opponent in his sleep is not a strong tactic and will not usually have the desired effect. Of course, if the characters are just thugs of orc rank, then go right ahead. *** A fine example is Gollum from, again, the lord of the rings films. He could, potentially, kill the hobbits he travels with in their sleep. However, it proves to be a much more successful tactic to destroy their relationship with one another and then to get them killed by a chunky spider. It is both good for gollum, in that, he need not get involved in a risky combat and also in that he gets to recover his magic ring, which the spider won't want. Good for the story and good for him. I think you can make good use of this example to do a better job. Stop thinking about taking the party on as a whole. Become friendly with some of it and gain allies. Alienate the other half. Excellent social roleplay and probably a safer and easier option than trying to wipe them all out single handed.
StevenO 01-22-05, 11:24 AM	This sounds like a case of a DM asking a player to do what an NPC would normally do inorder to make the game more interesting. Given that this is an evil party (by design) I don't really believe the no PC killing PC idea is valid as evil is know to fight itself although I normally wouldn't approve. I'd say there are two ways to play this out. Method One: You win. Unless your party keeps multiple people up on watch just coup-de-grace each partymember in their sleep. Even if someone else is on watch you should be able to get the drop on one other player. This method is likely the most effective but will likely end the campain very quickly. Method Two: You are DM's secret grunt. In this case follow any of the less lethal methods of getting the artifact but expect to loose your character as a result. This is probable the best for story reasons but you'll need to be willing to sacrifice your character to the story.
crilley 01-22-05, 10:50 PM	Remember that PCs and NPCs are, in the game, no different. An evil character would not refrain from killing a PC because of that. Also, the game is about fun. As long as the player having thier character killed is having fun, who cares?
Falkus 01-22-05, 11:01 PM	As long as the player having thier character killed is having fun, who cares? Your fellow party member slits your throat in your sleep. I fail to see the fun in this.
MortalPlague 01-23-05, 03:58 AM	Setting up characters who have goals that lie contrary to each other can make for a very memorable campaign. Especially if you set it up so that the PCs have the potential to figure things out, then I say it's fine. I run games in which PC killing occurs on the rare occasion. I recently stuck a pair of players on the opposite side of a conflict, and their characters turned on the party in the middle of a big battle. My players loved it, and enjoyed the vicious combat, eventually subduing the two and bringing them to the local jail. It made for a genuinely fun game of D&D. If the adventurers always get along perfectly and trust each other completely, you never get the fun of rp'ing mistrust and suspicion.
Zendu 01-23-05, 04:30 AM	1) you are hardcore metagaming by waiting for evasion 2) if your dm wants you to, far be it from me to step on his feet... that said.... Take a good look at the cleric....disguise your self as him, and kill some civilians, making sure to be seen (hat of disguise is cheap!) once he is impreissied the other pcs will embark in trying to save his life. Say you want to get his testimoney down ( you are the scribe) proceed to open lock the door and "free him" only to kill/ paralyze him if you can. Leave a +1 dagger as the murder weapon (god help you at this point if they cast speak with dead!) by this point, the players are in the habit of identifying everything, which works to your habit. Once the spellcaster begins identifiying, no one is going to sit there and watch him do it for an hour, they are going to investigate. Stay behind so you can get "witness reports" kill the spellcaster while he is severly distracted. 2 down... plant, or simply tell him to purchase, some poisen, hel still is in your services correct? Heres the important part... dont have anything on yourself, this way when you say 'the assassin has poisins' he will attempt to betray you, but you are just a simple scribe, why whould you need weapons?' or at least just have no magical ones, or, if your feeling risky, try palming your weapon. while the ensuing fight happens, the twf will most likly win, but regardless, simply kill the weakened one from a distance with your crossbow. THATS how you play evil baby. *edit* on second thought, disguise your self as the assasin for the prison slaying, to combat any scrying/magic that might happen
weretouched 02-09-05, 04:41 PM	aahh finaly a person unafraid to pc kill in my games we usually dont kill each other but i make it abundanty clear that it is entirely possible for it to happen... im usually the strongest dude in the 3 man group so..... anyway back to the problem DO NOT WAIT if you do clerics gonna get new spells and thats BAD... for the spellcasters i say get em in there sleep so they cant cast on you. same with all others but take the casters first. oh and by the way dont you dare play evil stupid never give the artifact back if its strong enough to change the tides of a war well then just think for a moment........... but be carefull ive killed pc's before and my hint to you is make it memorable funny and creative keep em laughin to much to be *******. :D
ZACKOLicious 02-09-05, 09:00 PM	First let me make it clear that i do not support every party to do this. OK that thats out of the way, i have noticed that this has somewhat turned into a flame war. I am going to try and shed some light on the subject. I have noticed that a lot of people who have been playing D&D for a while are the ones most avidly against PKing, now i dont know if it is because they are set in their ways or they are really into roleplaying. i have one thing to say, if they kill because their PC would then let them. they are not really doing anything wrong, actually you could give them RPing XP. just dont let them kill for no reason. Also make sure there is no ill feelings afterward. And finally check with the DM to make sure he doesnt mind PKing. now i am not saying PKing is for everyone but it can come up, and if it does just role with it, so you put work into your PC. Big deal, it will always be there its not like you have to burn the sheet now. Think of it like this you get another opportunity to RP one of those other great ideas you had, like that Barbarian who hates wighting but does what he is good at. just my 2 coppers
ck2001wendt 02-10-05, 09:09 AM	Your problem is that if you kill them one at a time, they'll just keep recruiting new members into the party (this is, of course, metagaming on my part). Your only real chance is to kill them all at once, or leave them so weak that you can take the Artifact, they can't resist, and you can count on your employers to protect you. My advice: Adventurers get into big battles. You know this w/o metagaming. You and the Assassin (your unwitting accomplice) are the party's best scouts. Have them lead the party into a battle that will result in their deaths. Search for traps and "accidentally" fail to find them while you're out scouting, then have the rest of the party go first. This is a good test of player maturity; a non-metagaming party will let you get away with it (after all, BOTH scouts couldn't have missed it). Alternately, wait for a big combat to come on its own. Hold yourself back just long enough for your party to win (hopefully one of them will die, and the rest will be low on spells). Shouldn't be hard for the party rogues to want to stay out of combat. As they're looting the corpses, but before they can heal, have the two of you reveal your true allegiance and kill the survivors. Don't turn on the assassin immediately. Make sure you promise him a big reward, but ONLY if you make it back with the Artifact alive. Once you have it, hide it someplace so he depends on you. Greed is a great motivator. When you get back to your employer, it's your business whether you have him killed. One of the things that I have only half-jokingly "threatened" my DM with in our political intrigue game, is that if an NPC ever comes in who looks like they might threaten my place in the power structure of their land we're liberating, I might just "accidentally" roll double 1's and hit the NPC in the back with a Disintegrate..."Sorry old chap! What rotten luck!" That might not be a bad tactic for you. You can always get away ONCE with "I accidentally shoot him in the back." Twice is a conspiracy. So make that one time count. Oh, and if you wanted to have a good shot at pulling this off, CV Ninja probably wasn't the way to go. It's the sucky (no offense!). Lastly...tell us how it goes.