Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bahamut_0 03-08-04, 11:02 AM	I'm starting a new campaign on Friday and would appreciate some help with my sorc. He'll be going Dragon Disciple and then Dragonslayer (odd, but I have rp reasons). I kinda just want help with what spells to choose for him, I rarely play sorcs and am used to having a large spell book, so any advice?
Stormweaver 03-08-04, 11:16 AM	It all depends on what you want you sorcerer to do and at what level you are starting. 0 level are easy Acid splash Light Mage hand Ghost sound I suggest 2 of the following for low level sorcerer: Color spray Enlarge person Expedious retreat Grease Mage armor Magic Missiles Shield Sleep
Amethyst_Rage 03-08-04, 11:24 AM	I know this is not what you asked but I would seriously consider going for a level in fighter or barabarian, the Dragon Disciple is after all, more of a fighter than a spellcaster. That said, I would probably go for the spell selections which Stormweaver suggested, probably taking Mage Armour and Sleep at first level. Mage Armour is going to be useful for your entire career and that armour class boost at low levels can be a life saver. Sleep is useful only for the first 2 or three levels of your career, but, thanks to the 3.5 rules, you can always change it for something else later on.
bahamut_0 03-08-04, 11:25 AM	Well, I'm starting at 1st level and basically want him to be a pretty resourcful guy, cool spells that can be handy but also some offensive spells.
Goreg Skullcrusher 03-08-04, 01:40 PM	Well, I'm starting at 1st level and basically want him to be a pretty resourcful guy, cool spells that can be handy but also some offensive spells You're better off as a Wizard then. (For that matter, when it comes to selecting between Sorc and Wiz, you're always better off with the Wiz. :) ) Being a Wizard lets you have the spell selection you need to have all those "cool" spells, without having to comprimise effectiveness. If you had a crappy spell memorized one day, switch it out the next day for an altogether more useful spell. As a Sorc, you're stuck with your 2-4 spells for many levels before you can dump them. This pretty much forces you to take the most effective spells, completely ignoring the minor utility spells.
bahamut_0 03-08-04, 01:50 PM	I know, but I'm playing a sorc, I wanna be a DD, and I want a change from wizards. Thanks for the input though. :)
Dr. Jubal Harshaw 03-08-04, 04:37 PM	don't underestimate the potential of Charm Person. This spell can be invaluable in numerous situations. I have found it becomes particularly effective at later levels when Silenced and Stilled so no-one realises what you're doing. Apart from this, Stormweaver has an excellent list of suggestions. I'll also put my plug in for Magic Missile. It may be plain vanilla, but its one of the best spells at 1st level for the simple fact that it is ranged and deals a decent damage. If you've got 1d4 hit points you don't want to be mixing it up in close combat
DemonMonkeyBoy 03-09-04, 03:48 AM	:b: Just a little warning I gave a friend that didn't listen. If your going to take DD avoid area effect spell. Focus on spell that buff you or no save spells. My friend that didn't listen can now cast fire ball 10 times a day 6d6 DC:17. Now at higher lvls most creature don't miss so they do about 10 point of damage each.
Amethyst_Rage 03-09-04, 08:05 AM	Originally posted by DemonMonkeyBoy :b: Just a little warning I gave a friend that didn't listen. If your going to take DD avoid area effect spell. Focus on spell that buff you or no save spells. My friend that didn't listen can now cast fire ball 10 times a day 6d6 DC:17. Now at higher lvls most creature don't miss so they do about 10 point of damage each. Taking this bit of advice into account and if you really MUST take levels all together in Sorcerer (rather than just one and the rest in Barbarian-which I would advise for DD). However, remember that as a Sorcerer, you can swap a few spells around here and there. A Firball is a must, but swap it for something else after it has served it's use.
bahamut_0 03-09-04, 08:08 AM	It's not that I have to take the sorc levels, I want to. I'm not looking for the easiest way to make him powerful, I just want to know what are good spells, cause I'm mainly used to having a wide spell selection with wizards. Thanks for all the input so far guys :)
ninjarabbit 03-09-04, 04:24 PM	May I suggest true strike and enlarge if you want to be a DD.
Edymnion 03-09-04, 09:16 PM	Originally posted by bahamut_0 It's not that I have to take the sorc levels, I want to. I'm not looking for the easiest way to make him powerful, I just want to know what are good spells Anything that does not rely on caster level. Dragon Disciple gives you zip for caster progression. A Sorc 10/DD 10 is only a 10th level caster. You cannot swap spells as a DD either. Please note that the DD gets additional spells per day, he does NOT gain new spells, and since he does not get that +1 caster level, he cannot trade spells. DD is for Sorcerer 1/Melee class X. If you want to be a primary caster, you avoid the DD like the plague (you're FAR better off using a Ritual from Savage Species to simply give yourself the normal Half-Dragon template). If you realize all of this, that you will not be a caster of more than an extremly limited number of low level spells, then you're ready to play. True Strike, Bull's Strength, anything that buffs you and is not dependant on caster level for effect or duration. Just really, really want to make sure you understand that Dragon Desciple is NOT a caster class, in any way. It doesn't matter that you have to be a Sorcerer or a Bard to get into it, the DD simply is not designed for spellcasters. It was a great idea, but it's implementation was pure crap.
Amethyst_Rage 03-10-04, 02:34 AM	Originally posted by Edymnion Just really, really want to make sure you understand that Dragon Desciple is NOT a caster class, in any way. It doesn't matter that you have to be a Sorcerer or a Bard to get into it, the DD simply is not designed for spellcasters. It was a great idea, but it's implementation was pure crap. Edymnion, you beat me to it! DD is a fighter class, primarily a melee fighter class. I have seen a player take this class for his Sorcerer character, his spellcasting ability was left standing whilst his melee skill increased and while the melee thing was nice, it was not how he had visualized (or planned) the character.
bahamut_0 03-10-04, 05:25 AM	I know it's a melee class, that's what I want to make, a spellcaster who fights melee. I'm also going Dragonslayer later on (like I said, rp reasons) which will boost my spellcasting some more as ewll as my melee fighting. I guess that means the only spells I'm concerned with are the first 4 or so levels in the long run, but at a high level I could get access 6th level, maybe higher. I am starting at 1st level, but this will be an ongoing campaign so I'm thinking about the effects of the long run too. Basically I'll go 5th level sorc, then DD until my BAB was high enough to take dragonslayer. Continue with that to boost both my melee and spellcasting, then I'll see how I feel about whether to return to sorc or DD levels. Again, I'm not just trying to make a powerful character, this character is strongly rped, but I also don't want some useless character either. I think this guy will be real fun to play.
Amethyst_Rage 03-11-04, 02:48 AM	Do you have access to a copy of the Minitures Handbook? If you do, perhaps you ought to consdier the War Mage Character Class rather than the Sorcerer? Personally, I think that this class is just perfect for the DD and your needs.
bahamut_0 03-11-04, 05:31 AM	Unfortunately, material from the miniatures handbook isn't allowed. Thanks for the suggestion though.
SmiloDan 03-11-04, 11:02 AM	I would suggest Burning Hands and Shocking Grasp, since their damage dice max out at 5th level anyways. But maybe use them for your Swap spells when you go up in level. A sorcerer ideally shouldn't be in melee to use Shocking Grasp, since they have only 4 hitpoints and an AC of 10. How available are magic items going to be? Will you be able to buy wands of mage armor and magic missile and truestrike? Or would you have to make them yourself or go without?
bahamut_0 03-11-04, 02:54 PM	Hmmm, I'm sure I could get myself some wands. It's not a low magic campaign, but it's not a high magic one either.
Myst 03-13-04, 02:11 AM	Originally posted by bahamut_0 I'm starting a new campaign on Friday and would appreciate some help with my sorc. He'll be going Dragon Disciple and then Dragonslayer (odd, but I have rp reasons). I kinda just want help with what spells to choose for him, I rarely play sorcs and am used to having a large spell book, so any advice? best 1st level spell ever : magic missle. its very good, even at high levels, because its not that often that an enemy has a protection, unless its another sorceror or something.. just my 2 cents...
Larus 03-13-04, 07:48 AM	Focus on touch attacks and choose spell focus Transmutation. Spells that enhance your own abilities (such as cat's Grace, true strike, fly, spider climb darvision etc) is a good choice; since most "damage" spells rely upon caster level. Tuch attacks such as Vampirick touch, shocking grasp would help you out, and a Disciples enormous strength would make these spells easy to work. Avoid metamagic feats. Still spell is worth considering if you plan to wear armour (no faliure), but otherwise choose feats suchas weapon focus (touch), spell focus (transmutation) and perhaps combat casting or lightning reflexes.
Amethyst_Rage 03-14-04, 03:57 AM	Oh! I've just remembered! Enlarge Person, areally good, low level buffing spell! This little baby can increase your strength (aka Damage), gives you extra reach and increases the damage potential of any weapons you have. On the downside your Dex does decrease (a decrease in dex skills, initiative and AC) and your attack bonus goes down (although this is offset by your increased strength). Now, for a low level Sorcerer, you, personally, are not going to find too much use for this spell other than buffing up the melee fighters in your group (and they will appreciate it) however, as you get those DD levels you can begin buffing yourself. The duration is such, that even for a first level spell, the effect will last for an entire encounter. Well worth considering as one of your two starting spells. My current character (a sorcerer 3/druid 2) has the following spells (sorcerer) in his repetoire: Enlarge Person Magic Missile Benign Transportation (from the minitures handbook) Combine these with the fact that he has access to 3 first level druid spells per day, can cast 6 of his sorcerer spell slots per day and is a member of a diverse party of 7 members, he is found to be an effective member of the group.
OmiKapSi 04-10-04, 01:50 AM	This is really funny. Ressing this thread for my own purposes since I don't want to risk starting a thread that (I'm guessing) occurs all the time. My advice: Take true strike and enlarge. If you are playing a medium sized character, there's a lethal disarm combo I ran into on the boards. Enlarge, True strike, then disarm from a distance. No attack of opportunity if they don't have reach. Your base modifier is +20 on the disarm roll, plus any strength and BAB modifiers you may have. If they don't win the opposed attack roll, you are now holding thier weapon. The only other spell I'd recommend for first level sorcerer spells is Magic Missile. It's heavily favored for a reason. Now, as for limited spell selection, that's what scrolls and wands are all about. Some recommended scrolls: Comprehend Languages. Phenomenal utility spell. Invisibility. Escape plan for nasty situations. Charm person. It doesn't matter if they see you cast it if it works. Silent Image. Utility. (Insta-wall anyone?) Detect Thoughts. Utility. Alter Self. Utility. Spider Climb. Almost as good as flight. Anyway, just to add my plea to bahamuts. Playing a sorc. Core material only. Looking for suggestions for second level spells. Don't really want to do scorching ray yet, since I won't have precise shot until 6th level. I'm thinking either shatter or hideous laughter. But I don't generally do arcane spellcaster builds, so I'm wondering if there's a spell out there that I've overlooked that has usefulness that isn't immediately apparent. Ideally, looking for input from someone who has played a sorcerer.
bahamut_0 04-10-04, 06:30 AM	Thanks for the help, I love the look of that disarm combo :schemes: Anyway, lets hope you can get some help to :)
RobTzu 04-10-04, 08:30 PM	I have a 9 level sor 7 level dd. She has the following spell list: 4th: Improved Invisibility, Acid Orb (T&B) 3rd: Dispel Magic, Vampiric Touch, Stinking Cloud, 2nd: GlitterDust, See Invisible, Spider Climb, Melf's Acid Arrow 1nd: Magic Missle, FeatherFall, Ray of Enfeeblement, Expeditious retreat, Shield 0th: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Open/close, Arcane Mark, Mending, Message (love it), Ghost Sound Went straight Sorceress to 9th then went DD, so with Bonus slots and a Cha of 22 she has these slots: 4th: 10 3rd:7 2nd:8 1st:8 0th:6 Feats in order of Acquistion she is human: Martial Profiency Greatsword, Improved Iniative, WEapon Focus Greatsword, Heighten Spell, Arcane preparation (FRCS), Light Armour profiency, Still Spell. She has a Mithril Breast plate + 4 (15% spell failure), Admantine Greatsword +3, etc. With the strength racial bonuse and Belt of Giant Strength + 6, she does 2d6 +16 with her Greatwsord. She is a good melee character. I use Improved Invisibily alot, usually I start combat with a targeted Dispel move back and next turn charge the closest person. She does great! We have another Arcane caster though which helps a ton. I prepare 6 stilled Dispel Magics a day.
bahamut_0 04-11-04, 06:17 AM	Very nice character, I have to get Still Spell.
Sisyfos 04-11-04, 08:43 AM	Take a look at the "sorc_spells" link in my signature. Then pick and choose which archetypes you want to integrate into your character.
bahamut_0 04-11-04, 11:37 AM	I like your melee sorc spells.
Varrik 04-12-04, 03:27 AM	I think there are three large inherent problems with playing the melee Dragon Disciple as is.... (and worse they are symbiotic, in that combined they make you much weaker than any one problem.) 1) ASF - You are in melee but you can not wear armor. Yes, there are alternatives, but you have to be rich enough to afford them for them to be effective. Which doesn't help your survivability at low levels. (This ties into point 2) 2) 1 spell per round - even if you load up on the buffing spells, you can at most get one or two rounds of buffing in before you have to (or want to) enter melee. So, you can have a whole arsenal of Buffing spells, but how long are you gonna sit there buffing before you or your opponents attack? 3) Duration - you are middling sorcerer at best. So your buffs won't last very long. Even the vaunted Mage Armor will only stick around for a few hours until your later levels. But your Cat's Grace or Bull's Strength will probably fail you just when you need it most.
Montieth 04-12-04, 05:30 PM	One must take some feats to make some magic items to take advantage of the Buff Spells outside of the normal step of Cast Spell, turn ends, Cast spell, turn ends.
Krelios 04-12-04, 05:34 PM	Never make a sorcerer without Prestidigitation. Very nearly the single most useful 0th level spell (next to mage hand and light).