Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Needle 02-16-07, 09:49 AM	Hi folks. I'm rolling up a Sorcerer for a game i'll be playing.. retiring my old druid since one of my old fighters is complaining that my class is 'cheesy' and its taking away form my fun of the game. :/ Anyway.. this is my first time playing an arcane spellcaster. Sadly reading around these boards it sounds like i'm in for a worse time being called cheap since everyone seems to say Arcane magic is king. Our party has never had an arcane spellcaster before, and we're badly hurting against some encounters now we're getting up in levels. However due to the fact none of us have played an arcane caster, i'm stumped and really need help. For the record ive decided to play a Kobold Sorcerer / Dracolexi (RotD) Ive put a lot of thought into this build so far, but am very unsure of my spell list since i dont know whats what. I'll list my feats / abilities too so you know and can critique those too. I am so far: Sorc 5, Dracolexi: 7 So far i have: Str:6, Dex: 18(+1 from levels), Con: 12, Int: 12, Wis: 10, Cha: 18 (+2 from levels) I have taken the Draconic rite of passage and Greater Draconic rite of passage for a total of: Feather Fall 3/day and +1 effective Sorcerer casting level, bringing me back up to 12 from prC. I havent cleared these with DM yet but i'm hoping he wont have any problem with them. My feats are: 1, Still spell (PrC requirement) 3, Draconic Breath; Fire (i want this for flavor.) 6, Draconic Reservoir (required for greater draconic rite of passage) 9, Draconic Resistance 12: Draconic arcane grace. I took the Dragonblood 1st and 4th level substitutions, so i have no familiar but gained Draconic Heritage: Red and Arcane insight +4. My Draconic words(Dracolexi) are: 1, Renthist: My speach or thos ei touch is understod by all creatures for 1 hours/level. 4, Ssearth: Heals 1 hp/level or extends any spell i cast (Extend at no extra level adjustement on all my spells? ye splease! also a minor heal wen nessacary) 7, Strix: Grants 2x class level in temp hp for 1 hour. Pondered taking a 4th level one for flee/shaken in that slot, but i dont want anyone calling me cheap again, sigh. Anyway, i plan on taking the auto empower or widen / 5d6 nuke word at 10th. For gear ive taken: Cloak of Cha +4, Bracers of Dex+2, Ring o Blinking, Bracers of resistance +2, Belt of Dwarvenkind, Necklace of Adaption, Slippers of spiderclimbing, Hat of Disguise, Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (CA), Amulet of Warmth (RotD) Spells: 1st: True Strike, Ray of Enfeeblement, Magic Missile, Mage Armor, Shield 2nd: Invisibility, Scorching Ray, Glitterdust, Resist Energy, False Life, Command Undead (bonus from Dracolexi) 3rd: Dispel magic, Haste, Slow, Fireball, Suggestion (Bonus Dracolexi), Fly 4th, Invisibility: Greater, Stoneskin, Solid Fog, Power Word: Disable (Bonus Dracolexi) 5th, Cloudkill, Teleport, Power Word: Nausiate (Bonus Dracolexi) 6th: Disintigrate I'm really unsure about this list. We're currently playing through city of the spider queen (No spoilers please) and i want to be useful. I also dont want to die since i'll probably be inept till i get the hang of things. Any help is appreciated!
Drag0nUL 02-16-07, 11:26 AM	First of all I think you should get rid of true strike. With your small size and 6 strength Idon't supose you will be going into melee much. And I'd be swapping solid fog for phantasmal killer, but that's just personal preference.
Elsydeon 02-16-07, 12:19 PM	True Strike is for ranged touch like disintegrate I suppose. You're so focused on the Draconic feats you've lost your spellcaster versatility. Versatility is crucial for a sorc, and the lack of spell penetration, control, too few damage types, no item creation, low (relatively) DC's on your spells, etc. is going to hurt you badly the way he's built currently. I'd also lower dex by 2 because the constitution you gain is far more crucial. Higher fort save is a saving grace for arcane casters. I doubt the missing point of AC, reflex save, and touch attack is going to hurt as much as having 12 con. Ditch, oddly enough (I almost always reccomend this spell, but it's not that good for you), false life or your other hp buff. Redundancy in a sorceror is bad news. If you have another choice aside from Strix, take it. If you don't want to, ditch false life for the image spell. They have numerous uses. Again though, you're far better off dropping Draconic stuff for standard Arcane goodness like Spell Penetration and metamagic feats. I also agree with taking PK usually, but I see where you're going with the fog I think (doesn't stop rays, really high dex character). So I won't reccomend that swap if that's the plan he wanted to run with. And it supplements the other crowd control resources. But not as well, since it kind of keeps your party from going to town as easily. Edited for mental malfunction where I misread the description of Slow. Anyway, I see Will saves aplenty (glitterdust & slow), but no fort/reflex crowd control (cloudkill isn't going to slow them down or anything) unless the power words handle those. If so, ignore that point. If not, I'd reccomend trying to throw web or black tentacles into the mix. I'm still wary about that feat issue though.
tiamot 02-16-07, 12:34 PM	I suggest that you use your experience from gaming with this group and DM to determine what spells might be useful in the campaign. In addition when choosing spells you need to decide what 'thread' you want your spell caster to follow. If you want to be more support oriented, take spells that can help boost the stats and powers of your allies. You can take a defensive stance and focus on spells that target the enemies in such a way that it cripples or slows them down. Yet again, you can go full on offensive and go for damaging spells. It's up to you how much you want to streamline your caster, or how general you want to keep him. Spells such as detect magic and dispel are good all around spells to have and should always be in a caster's list. When looking over your campaign keep setting in mind. For example: If you're spending time in dark underground places, there is a chance that your enemies will be weakened or blinded by light. Having a light or sunburst spell can be mighty handy against enemies, plus it will help you see.
solbergb 02-16-07, 05:17 PM	I think you have a very tough job ahead of you. Starting with a L12 arcanist as your very first experience with the playstyle is going to mean you just don't do it as well as you should. It's not an insult - you can't possibly have the insight that you would have had if you had grown the character up from level 1. So the build will have stuff in it that doens't work well with the party, the campaign and your playstyle that you'll have to fine tune and shake down in play. You will have habits of behavior counter to the actual capabilities of the sorcerer, and you will have difficulty taking advantage of the wealth of options presented even by the relatively small spell selection of a sorcerer. I would put away the books and think about how you see the character participating in these situations. 1. A combat with primarily ranged attackers 2. A close quarters melee combat 3. An enemy who is immune or mostly immune to your attack spells 4. A social situation like a diplomatic ball 5. A tavern brawl, where it is impolite to actually hurt anyone with lethal damage 6. A situation where you have to get information from a small child 7. Ambushed by rogues 8. Blinded 9. imprisoned 10. Presented with a challenge of crossing 1000 miles where time is of essence. Does it matter what the terrain is? Can you bring the rest of the party? 11. Your buddy is at 1 hitpoint and an unhurt enemy with a million dangerous melee attacks is about to go. You get one action to save him. What do you do? 12. fighting many weak opponents with dangerous attacks 13. fighting one big strong opponent with dangerous attacks. Forget about mechanics. Just visualize how you think a sorcerer or wizard might cope with these situations. Then think about how YOUR character would cope with the situation, what his basic approach would be. then look for spells that get you there, and feats, especially metamagic feats that get you there. If this seems overwhelming - it will be less so when you get used to being an arcanist. But starting with the idea and going to mechanics works better than picking spells from a list. You know why, for example, you chose teleport over dimension door (you were worried about strategic travel distances, you wanted to be able to act after teleporting, you are ok with the random nature of the destination, etc) or the reverse (you could spare a 4th level slot, you liked the precise tactical targeting of dim door, easier concentration checks) or neither (didn't work thematically, there is someone else in the party that does that, you have an item that covers it in emergencies, etc) .
solbergb 02-16-07, 05:26 PM	For gear ive taken: Cloak of Cha +4, Bracers of Dex+2, Ring o Blinking, Bracers of resistance +2, Belt of Dwarvenkind, Necklace of Adaption, Slippers of spiderclimbing, Hat of Disguise, Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (CA), Amulet of Warmth (RotD) Ok lets see. Ring of blinking means you have a grapple defense. Hat of disguise and slippers of spider climb give some interesting stealth and deceoption options. I'll count these into spells known. So we have: Area damage: fireball, cloudkill single target damage: magic missile, scorching ray, disintegrate and I guess truestrike. debuffs: ray enfeeble, glitterdust, command undead, slow, dispel magic, suggestion, the two power word spells. Battlefield control: solid fog, disintegrate arcane buffs: mage armor, invisibile, resist energy, haste, stoneskin, greater invis mobility: haste, fly, teleport defense: mage armor, shield, ring blinking, false life, resist energy, invisible, haste, greater invis, stoneskin, necklace adaption Utility: invis, fly, hat disguise, boots spider climb, dispel magic divination: nada. Consider working in something like arcane sight or see invisible unless somebody else in the party is handling the "notice stuff" chores. For a first time arcanist, you picked a pretty good spell list. The main thing you are missing is that this build is crying out for Empower Spell. That metamagic feat would boost magic missile, scorching ray, ray of enfeeblement, fireball and false life, giving you middle ground between weak single target damage/debuffs and disintegrate that you're lacking. Some lesser rods of metamagic empower might fill the gap to some extent, if you are set on the draconic stuff. But I think the feat would do more for you. Unlike the others I'm not going to ask you to abandon the kobold/draconic theme, but you really should try to work empower spell into the feat mix somehow. It is a crime that you don't have it. The character has no constitution amulet and not much con. He needs his hitpoint spells/feats. I think that's a wash and ok. STACKING similar stuff isn't a bad idea. What you want to watch out with as a sorc is too many things that all take the same kind of action. You can have 50 attack spells, but can only cast one a round. So the ones you take need to do different things. You can have 50 defense spells, but if they aren't running when the combat starts already, they waste actions. Buffs that you don't seem to have running most combats, should be swapped for something you'll use. I think you have a few too many minute/level defensive buffs, but not being in your campaign, I can't see how often your'e the active party. Pay attention to how often you really have time for things like Shield - you already blink and will be invisible sometimes...why do you need +4 to AC that you have to waste an action on? I'd say trustrike and shield are the weakest picks by far, and if you aren't using invisibility as a buff for the scout, instead of for yourself, it's probably wasted when you have greater invis. I don't know if you have access to guided shot, but it's almost always better for a sorcerer than truestrike (swift action instead of std action, ignores cover and concealment less than total).
solbergb 02-16-07, 05:32 PM	but no fort/reflex crowd control (cloudkill isn't going to slow them down or anything) unless the power words handle those. If so, ignore that point. If not, I'd reccomend trying to throw web or black tentacles into the mix. I'm still wary about that feat issue though. He doesn't need it. He has solid fog, which will slow anything down, and disintegrate, which can dig pits under the fog.... It's not the usual suspects but it gets the job done. If he knows how to use the spells.
Elsydeon 02-16-07, 06:10 PM	When you put all your eggs in one basket... A) Introduce freedom of movement and he's toast B) Solid fog is slowing down your own party just as much as it is the enemy in so many situations... ideally he should be able to open the enemy up to attack, not hide them from it. C) Two spells to do what a 2nd level web will do is just plain unacceptable. Admittedly, given the lack of actual spellcaster feats solid fog is going to do better than the others over the long term. Without the ability to apply metamagic to his damage spells or heighten his crowd control choices he's going to have a very tough road ahead. Especially since he started at 16 int instead of 18. His DC's are suffering. He's got a lot of will save stuff. Ideally he should have reflex and one of the other two so he can deal with whatever's thrown at him with a crowd control spell (excepting Monks and stuff). You need to layer your defenses when it comes to CC spells. The advantage of adding Web or Tentacles to the list is pretty huge. On a side note: Disintegrate is battlefield control?
Needle 02-16-07, 09:11 PM	Okay. Ive swapped out Shield for Sticky Floor (RotD) for a little extra crowd control. I considered grease, which seems more versatile, but in a combat situation Sticky Floor seems superior, as a failed save = stuck. Its reflex, and i know its 1st level so save is low, but it seems like a solid spell. The reason i picked truestrike is the DM seems to be throwing many huge AC monsters at us that our fighters are having a hard time hitting. It will work for RoE, Disintigrate and Scorching ray. I also cant really think of any other 1st level spell i would rather have. What would anyone say about me swapping out stoneskin for Wall of Ice? Or would swapping cloudkill for wall of force be a better idea? This would enable me to dump my necklace of adaptation for a con necklace, since i took the necklace with the intent on taking refuge inside my own cloudkill in a bad situation while the fighters dealt with enemies. I'm tempted to drop False Life for Web now, but with my low con i dont want to rely on my Temp HD class ability, it only lasts 1 hour total and i can only use it on myself once per day. That being said i took the advice and dropped Dex to 16 (18 with gloves) and raised my con to 14 (16 wit item). Since my PrC has a d6HD i'm not actually too bad with HP now, i rolled fairly well and have 87hp at 12th actually =)
solbergb 02-20-07, 06:17 PM	When you put all your eggs in one basket... A) Introduce freedom of movement and he's toast No, that spell just meanst the one enemy with it gets butchered by the party faster. If everyone has it, dispel magic can fix that, or he can just not do battlefield control that fight. B) Solid fog is slowing down your own party just as much as it is the enemy in so many situations... ideally he should be able to open the enemy up to attack, not hide them from it. Not if you place it right. For example, any size large critter can leave a corner exposed for everyone to attack. This spell is better the larger the creature gets, unlike most battlefield control, as more squares mean more rounds of hampered movement. If you're really concerned, have a scroll of gust of wind for occasions where you need to slice a hole in the fog. Battlefield control is about taking away enemy actions while leaving your own party a way to concentrate force. It takes a little practice to do right. Solid fog IS inferior to web in confined quarters if you don't have a way of removing it on demand. But it's head and shoulders superior in open terrain. C) Two spells to do what a 2nd level web will do is just plain unacceptable. .... Admittedly, given the lack of actual spellcaster feats solid fog is going to do better than the others over the long term. Two spells to do what one perfect spell can do is the hallmark of a sorcerer. But really...Web has many, many flaws compared to solid fog. 1. Useless without anchor points 2. Fire removes it effortlessly 3. Bigger and stronger = move faster. Solid fog is the opposite 4. Useless against flying enemies unless there are two anchor points nearby (good luck) Yeah, I picked the spell based on his other constraints. Relying on saving throws isn't going to work as well. This spell just works. SR=no. Save =No. you can't just go around it with flight if cast on you, size is a detriment, not an advantage etc. On a side note: Disintegrate is battlefield control? I've seen this spell be used to devastating effect to either remove barriers or to drop somebody important into a pit. Whereas when used as a damage spell, it fails almost all the time (unless you consider 5d6 success). When I put this spell on a sorc spell list, I'm thinking "remove barriers" not "do damage". It's not quite as specialized as "shatter" but arcanists without miss-chance defenses and rogues and undead aren't THAT common as enemies, and those are really the only types that fail the save very often. It can also be used to get around inconvenient walls that make you go through your solid fog :)
3DJutsu 02-20-07, 06:46 PM	Needle here is what my 14th lv EK(Soc, CL 12) had for his spell list, he was more melee oriented though so bear with it: 1) Endure Elements, Jump, Mage Armor, Shield, Weapon Shift 2) Heroics, Invisibility, Resist Energy, Sorching Ray, Wraithstrike 3) Dispel Magic, Melf's Unicorn Arrow (my preffered attack spell), Phantom Steed, Steeldance 4) Celerity, Ruin Delvers' Fortune, Flight of the Dragon 5) Greater Blink, Teleport 6) Analyze Dweomer But since your not melee in the slightest I can only suggest the following spells(always played an EK, never a pure blaster) 1) Endure Elements/Vigilant Slumber, Jump, Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missle 2) Craft Magic Tattoo, Invisibility, Resist Energy, Sorching Ray/Seeking Ray, Ray of Stupidity 3) Dispel Magic, Melf's Unicorn Arrow (my preffered attack spell), Phantom Steed/Regroup, Fireball/Lightning Bolt/Chain Missle 4) Forcewave?/Greater Invis, Ruin Delvers' Fortune, Flight of the Dragon 5) Greater Blink, Teleport 6) Analyze Dweomer Ill have to think about it some more, like I said, im used to melee casters
Needle 02-21-07, 04:40 AM	Hi, thanks for the replies. Okay.. my feats i'm leaving as is, i want them for flavor. If anyone thinks of a few draconic feat swaps that might still fit into the draconic theme let me know though. In regards to the metamagic: All my spells are automatically extended right now at no extra level adjustement / casting time increase. At 10t Dracolexi all my fire spells will be auto empowered with no extra level adjustement / casting time increase too. My adjusted spell list looks like this: pells: 1st: True Strike, Ray of Enfeeblement, Magic Missile, Mage Armor, Sticky Floor (RotD) 2nd: Invisibility, Scorching Ray, Glitterdust, Resist Energy, Web, Command Undead (bonus from Dracolexi) 3rd: Dispel magic, Haste, Slow, Fireball, Suggestion (Bonus Dracolexi), Fly 4th, Invisibility: Greater, Stoneskin, Solid Fog, Power Word: Disable (Bonus Dracolexi) 5th, Cloudkill, Teleport, Power Word: Nausiate (Bonus Dracolexi) 6th: Disintigrate My spell plan for the next few levels i would appreciate tips on too. So far i'm planning on: Wall of Ice(4th), Cone of Cold(5th), True Seeing(6th), PW: Stun (dracolexi bonus power word spell) and Forcecage (7th) I know this may sound odd.. but there doesnt look to be much good at 6th other than Disintigrate / True Seeing.
Southernskies 02-21-07, 06:53 AM	A tactical suggestion for you as well: True Strike + disintegrate = ranged sunder. Providing your DM doesn't put all the treasure as weapons.
solbergb 02-21-07, 12:41 PM	Hi, thanks for the replies. So far i'm planning on: Wall of Ice(4th), Cone of Cold(5th), True Seeing(6th), PW: Stun (dracolexi bonus power word spell) and Forcecage (7th) I know this may sound odd.. but there doesnt look to be much good at 6th other than Disintigrate / True Seeing. Wall of ice is a fairly good flexible spell. It blocks line of sight and line of effect, can be done in dome shape etc, but isn't as annoying to remove as ottiluke's sphere. It provides a different style of battlefield control . It does have a big downside though...if anyone is near it when it goes up, they can do a reflex save to disrupt it. Cone of cold is not an especially good spell for its level. Consider arc of lightning if you want a 15d6 cap spell you can empower with L7 slots - that spell is SR=no and easier to target most of the time. Given the autoempower for fire spells, you may want to be taking energy substitution (fire) if you intend to keep taking non-fire damage spells. True seeing would be a good spell for this character. You lack divinations, and this is a good one. Forcecage is nice, but expensive to use. I really like limited wish on sorcs as their first L7 spell (assuming they have metamagic lower level spells to use in the L7 slots) as it gives you emergency flexibility, giving you any spell you might need from not just the entire wiz/sor spell list, but also from other lists.
Elsydeon 02-21-07, 03:41 PM	To OP - Extend is useless metamagic, relatively speaking. It's nice to have, but when your fights last only a few rounds it's not that great. When I say you need decent magic feats I'm talking Heighten, Maximize, the Penetration feats, etc. Empower is ok, but not the best. But you don't actually have that yet, it only applies to fire, and you still have suffering DCs and Spell Resistance issues. Using all your feats for prereqs and flavor is going to kill your usefulness. That's just the nature of D&D. On Solid Fog - Well... A) Tight quarters are more common than open fields in most games. *shrugs* B) It's a spell that, to be used right, takes some experience as a spellcaster. Which OP lacks.
solbergb 02-21-07, 06:11 PM	A - depends on the campaign. My sorceress who took it, took the spell to cover encounters she was having trouble with (really big monsters, and flying monsters in open terrain). Her other battlefield control was sculpted grease and evards, plus the odd scroll of obscuring mist or smokesticks activated by servant hordes. One or the other worked against most foes in confined environments (and she could chain grease and possibly enlarge party fighters to go into the evards, and provide tenser disks +fly (for hereself) for the clumsies who needed to cross grease. B - a fair point. It's easier in some ways than other options because the mechanics are very simple, but using it in a way that doesn't interfere with your party does take some practice.