Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cloudy 12-01-07, 08:57 AM	Ok here's the situation: We have a party of 6 people in which everybody is at 10th level. The classes and races we chose are: Dwarf fighter/dwarven defender Human fighter/annointed knight Human fighter/rogue/assassin Human Psion (kineticist) Human Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor Human Sorcerer In the campaign we are currently playing our group has gone to the abyss. The location we are now has no access to any means of magical supplies (scrolls, potions etc) and there is no way we can find any, unless we leave the plane. During a fight with an abyssal basilisk our sorcerer was petrified and we were trying to find a solution to bring him back without abandoning our quest by leaving the plane. We searched the books but couldn't find a solution. (the basilisk's stone gaze is supernatural ability and thus not affected by break enchantment). If we continue though and leave him as he is for the time being, he won't be coming to the sessions for some time. Does anyone know a way so that we won't abandon our quest and our player will be able to continue playing or am i just asking too much?
Salla 12-01-07, 11:18 AM	Are you sure Break Enchantment doesn't work? I have trouble seeing petrification not counting as 'a transmutation'. The spell description specifically mentions Flesh to Stone, which the gaze certainly resembles. At any rate ... This illustrates why save-or-dies (in this case, it's as good as dying) suck ... if Break Enchantment doesn't work, and Stone to Flesh is 6th level and you have no way of getting a scroll of it, you're pretty hosed.
Talisman 12-01-07, 01:07 PM	If your GM is lenient, you might try mixing up some basilisk blood with the ol' Craft (Alchemy) skill. In mythology, Medusa's blood broke her petrification enchantment. There's nothing in the rules about it, so it'd be up to your GM. And break enchantment will totally undo a petrification effect.
Zarith 12-01-07, 06:17 PM	If Break Enchantment, a 5th level spell, would work, why would they have the 6th level spell stone to flesh, which requires a DC15 fort save to survive the process? The Craft (Alchemy) sounds like a good idea. Some time, maybe a quick side quest for additional ingredients (and a willing DM) would keep things moving and seems like a reasonable solution.
Cloudy 12-01-07, 07:14 PM	Break enchantment doesn't work because the basilisk's stone gaze is a supernatural ability and thus has no caster levels. In order to use break enchantment you must roll a caster level related roll (I don't remember the exact dc). The alchemy check sure sounds very nice. It's a great opportunity for rp too, but I doubt our dm will allow it. It's kind of embarassing for me though, not to know the part about the medusa's blood, since they taught us ancient mythology in elementary school. Thank you very much Talisman.
Sinis 12-01-07, 07:45 PM	The alchemy check sure sounds very nice. It's a great opportunity for rp too, but I doubt our dm will allow it. It's kind of embarassing for me though, not to know the part about the medusa's blood, since they taught us ancient mythology in elementary school. Thank you very much Talisman. Mythology is much broader than you'd guess if you feel that embarrassment. I'm sure your DM will give this alchemy/blood thing a go, it sounds like a wicked-fun idea.
kuonji 12-02-07, 01:57 AM	Well, break enchantment breaks a medusa's stone effect, so I don't see any reason it wouldn't work on a basilisk's stone effect, since both are supernatural effects.
Zarith 12-02-07, 08:55 AM	Well, break enchantment breaks a medusa's stone effect, so I don't see any reason it wouldn't work on a basilisk's stone effect, since both are supernatural effects. Flesh to stone (the effect the Gaze is duplicating) is a 6th level spell, and Break enchantment only works on spells that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic that are 5th level and below. Looking at the medusa and the basilisk their petrify ability is worded the same for both in the SRD (Don't have my books with me) w/ no caster level. How would Break Enchantment work? Could you refer me to the appropriate ruling in a book or SRD? From the SRD Break Enchantment Abjuration Level: Brd 4, Clr 5, Luck 5, Pal 4, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Targets: Up to one creature per level, all within 30 ft. of each other Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: No This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect. For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect. Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect. For a cursed magic item, the DC is 25. If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower. If the effect comes from some permanent magic item break enchantment does not remove the curse from the item, but it does frees the victim from the item’s effects.
CCS 12-02-07, 09:55 AM	Flesh to stone (the effect the Gaze is duplicating) is a 6th level spell, and Break enchantment only works on spells that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic that are 5th level and below. Looking at the medusa and the basilisk their petrify ability is worded the same for both in the SRD (Don't have my books with me) w/ no caster level. How would Break Enchantment work? Could you refer me to the appropriate ruling in a book or SRD? From the SRD Break Enchantment Abjuration Level: Brd 4, Clr 5, Luck 5, Pal 4, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Targets: Up to one creature per level, all within 30 ft. of each other Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: No This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect. For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect. Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect. For a cursed magic item, the DC is 25. If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower. If the effect comes from some permanent magic item break enchantment does not remove the curse from the item, but it does frees the victim from the item’s effects. Well, were I the DM here, & wanted Break Enchantment to work.... And felt the need to plug a # into the basilisks "caster level".... I'd assign the basilisk a caster level value = based on it's HD. So 8 hd = CL 8, etc. Depending upon mood I'd either make the value 1:1, 1:2, or 1:4.
Zarith 12-02-07, 10:05 AM	Well, were I the DM here, & wanted Break Enchantment to work.... And felt the need to plug a # into the basilisks "caster level".... I'd assign the basilisk a caster level value = based on it's HD. So 8 hd = CL 8, etc. Depending upon mood I'd either make the value 1:1, 1:2, or 1:4. That's a reasonable house rule, but kuonji stated it in such a way that it seemed like RAW. I was wondering if there was something I missed rules-wise.
kuonji 12-02-07, 11:08 AM	It's in the FAQ. A common mistake, one I've made myself, is assuming that the abilities of the medusa, basalisk, and cockatrice, for example, duplicate the 6th level spell Flesh to Stone. They do not duplicate the spell, that would be more along the line of a spell-like ability, a different catagory of effect than a supernatural ability. As for the caster level of the effect, the HD of the creature seems to be the most reasonable number to use.
Zarith 12-02-07, 02:41 PM	It's in the FAQ. A common mistake, one I've made myself, is assuming that the abilities of the medusa, basalisk, and cockatrice, for example, duplicate the 6th level spell Flesh to Stone. They do not duplicate the spell, that would be more along the line of a spell-like ability, a different catagory of effect than a supernatural ability. As for the caster level of the effect, the HD of the creature seems to be the most reasonable number to use. Found it. Thanks for the reference. That's strange. That makes me question the need for a higher level spell that could kill the recipient (Stone to Flesh). That's a strange ruling to me. I think I may continue to rule that Break Enchantment does not reverse petrification. I'll have to think about it...
MrCustomer 12-02-07, 04:10 PM	If Break Enchantment, a 5th level spell, would work, why would they have the 6th level spell stone to flesh, which requires a DC15 fort save to survive the process? Break Enchantment is a Cleric, Abjuration Spell. Stone to Flesh, is a Wiz/Sor Transmutation spell. A character turned to a statue is effectively dead, so a Cleric should be used to restore him, whereas a Wizard's cure is really asking for the wrong class to fix the problem. In short, while Stone to Flesh could cure the petrified character, it probably is the wrong spell/class to use. Also Stone to Flesh can be used on Stone Creatures like golems, or on statues to make them a corpse. Also missing limbs and parts of the creature are not restored by Raise Dead spells. So you could make stone limbs and use Flesh to Stone to rebuild the corpse with Mend before using Raise Dead, very useful if what is left of the fallen is too little to raise (like only the head). You could conceivably use stone limbs and Cure spells to restore lost limbs on living people as well if a Cleric with Heal isn't available.
Zarith 12-02-07, 05:28 PM	Break Enchantment is a Cleric, Abjuration Spell. Stone to Flesh, is a Wiz/Sor Transmutation spell. A character turned to a statue is effectively dead, so a Cleric should be used to restore him, whereas a Wizard's cure is really asking for the wrong class to fix the problem. In short, while Stone to Flesh could cure the petrified character, it probably is the wrong spell/class to use. Break enchantment is also a wizard spell. Brd 4, Clr 5, Luck 5, Pal 4, Sor/Wiz 5
MrCustomer 12-02-07, 06:18 PM	Break enchantment is also a wizard spell. Brd 4, Clr 5, Luck 5, Pal 4, Sor/Wiz 5 So it is, I was looking it up in my 3.0 book, player has my 3.5 atm. regardless Break Enchantment is Abjuration, Stone to Flesh is Transmutation and is not a Cleric spell. A Cleric would have to use Break Enchantment. Also a Wizard specialist may have either Abjuration or Transmutation as their prohibited school, or else may simply not have that particular spell in their spellbook. Abjuration spells are used to create or negate "magical or physical abilities" Whereas Transmutation is used to change the properties of something. It's not suprizing that a lower level Abjuration spell is more effective at actually saving the person then a higher level Transmutation spell in this situation, as far as the Transmutation magic works there is little to no difference between changing a statue or a petrified person from Stone to Flesh.
Zarith 12-02-07, 06:30 PM	So it is, I was looking it up in my 3.0 book, player has my 3.5 atm. Doh, the 3.0/3.5 gremlin strikes again. I suppose given the game stopping potential of petrification for one or more characters, having multiple solutions makes it more likely the problem will be solved without having the stoned individuals just staring off into space and eating munchies while the other players solve the problem. Wait a minute...
DFoster 12-02-07, 08:20 PM	For the Caster Level of a Baslisk gaze you just need to refer to the Supernatural Ability entry in the SRD: Supernatural Abilities (Su) Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is: 10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).
kuonji 12-03-07, 01:33 AM	For the Caster Level of a Baslisk gaze you just need to refer to the Supernatural Ability entry in the SRD: Supernatural Abilities (Su) Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is: 10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma). Nice to have that confirmed. Thanks.
Zarith 12-03-07, 07:05 AM	For the Caster Level of a Baslisk gaze you just need to refer to the Supernatural Ability entry in the SRD: 10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma). ...and the last piece falls into place. You read this stuff you think you know it, then forget to apply it. Thanks.
Phrennzy 12-03-07, 05:13 PM	The reason Stone to Flesh is a 6th level spell is because Flesh to Stone is a 6th level spell. Back in the day, Flesh to Stone was created as a 6th level spell. Back then, just about every spell was also 'reversible'. Then they split all the reversible spells into two spells, without reducing the level. Stone to Flesh should not be a 6th level spell. In fact, it is woefully underpowered as such. Petrification reversal should be available to lower level casters, simply because the CR of a cockatrice is 3. A basilisk is 5. A 3rd level PC trying to access the magic involved in reversing the petrification (5x9x25) = 1125gp to get a scroll to Break Enchantment. Not worth it - you are better off just rolling up a new guy, LOL. Perhaps in the case of extra planar travel and petrification - couldn't just ONE of you pop back to the material plane, secure what you need, and return?
Cloudy 12-03-07, 06:33 PM	Well, we don't have a wizard and the quest character that plane shifted us did it via scroll. We could use dismiss, since effectively, we are outsiders to the plane but that would be dangerous since we don't know where we would land. The quest character only has one more scroll so if we return to the material plane (safely) we'll have to find our own means to return back to finish the mission. Generally if we leave now, the whole campaign gets messed up... There are two options now, either the player will roll a new character, who will be a remnant of an older party that tried to loot the place, but failed misserably or we'll try the alchemy thing. In the first case the player will probably decide which character to keep once the whole mess is over.
kuonji 12-04-07, 02:25 AM	Well, we don't have a wizard and the quest character that plane shifted us did it via scroll. We could use dismiss, since effectively, we are outsiders to the plane but that would be dangerous since we don't know where we would land. The quest character only has one more scroll so if we return to the material plane (safely) we'll have to find our own means to return back to finish the mission. Generally if we leave now, the whole campaign gets messed up... There are two options now, either the player will roll a new character, who will be a remnant of an older party that tried to loot the place, but failed misserably or we'll try the alchemy thing. In the first case the player will probably decide which character to keep once the whole mess is over. You have a cleric. Is there no way to rest and have the cleric take Break Enchantment the next day to undo the stone effect?
Phrennzy 12-04-07, 10:14 AM	I'm do not know the limitations of the Radient servant, but Plane Shift is a 5th level cleric spell. I take it that he does not have access? Could you not, at your level, find the means in a large city for another scroll or two of plane shift once you are back home?
kuonji 12-04-07, 10:32 AM	I'm do not know the limitations of the Radient servant, but Plane Shift is a 5th level cleric spell. I take it that he does not have access? Could you not, at your level, find the means in a large city for another scroll or two of plane shift once you are back home? A radiant servant is your basic cleric (turn undead, full spell progression) but with a whole bunch of free special abilities. I think you end up with a d6 HP rather then d8. So plane shift could be another viable option.
Cloudy 12-05-07, 12:21 PM	Phrennzy, you really left me stunned with this post... I didn't know plane shift was a cleric spell AND a 5th level one too. I don't really play with spellcasters and I haven't read many spells (only those that offer pleasure to someone who likes rolling dice, eg fireball :P .) I don't know why wasn't that proposed by our cleric. Maybe I was reading about petrification at that time and didn't hear it. I 'll ask our DM next time I see him. I seriously doubt though that he'll let us slip that easily. Thanks guys.
Phrennzy 12-05-07, 04:45 PM	Phrennzy, you really left me stunned with this post... I didn't know plane shift was a cleric spell AND a 5th level one too. I don't really play with spellcasters and I haven't read many spells (only those that offer pleasure to someone who likes rolling dice, eg fireball :P .) I don't know why wasn't that proposed by our cleric. Maybe I was reading about petrification at that time and didn't hear it. I 'll ask our DM next time I see him. I seriously doubt though that he'll let us slip that easily. Thanks guys. He will if he wants his quest to stay on track. Petrification shouldn't be the death of a PC, especially one that is plane hopping. If anything, it's a drain of PC gold to get their friend 'un-stoned'.
toucanbuzz 12-05-07, 05:17 PM	I didn't know plane shift was a cleric spell AND a 5th level one too. I don't know why wasn't that proposed by our cleric. Plane Shift, unfortunately, has the little side clause of: "Precise accuracy as to a particular arrival location on the intended plane is nigh impossible." :banghead: I can't see any ability-based way your characters can get this sorcerer un-stoned. I really like the side quest idea and think your GM, who has to be in the same boat of not wanting a player sitting idly by, will craft up something for you.
Mock26 12-05-07, 06:58 PM	Talk to the DM out of character, before the session, and see if he would be willing to be kind of nice to the stoner? (That's a playful reference to the character because he's petrified. :D ) He could have the very next encounter be a wandering encounter and one of the magic items is a potion of Stone to Flesh. But, it is actually a salve that has to be rubbed all over the statue, and then they wait six hours (which will take mere seconds of actual game time). After six hours he get's limited movement back, say half movement and -2 or -4 on all actions for the next 12 to 24 hours. After that everything is fine and he's back to normal. This allows him to get back into the swing of things wihtout actually have to resort to anything drastic. Another option is to make him stiff from the transformation (which was not a full one) and at -2 until they can get a real Stone to Flesh cast on him. If he complains tell him operating at half speed and -2 on everything is better than not playing or rolling up a new character. Or, if the DM wants to be really nice he could just have the wandering monster have a Stone to Flesh scroll or a Wand of Stone to Flesh. There are a number of ways to get him back into the game without actually breaking or bending any of the rules.
Zarith 12-05-07, 07:20 PM	If you hope to pick something up in a random encounter, go for - From SRD Stone Salve This ointment has two uses. If an ounce of it is applied to the flesh of a petrified creature, it returns the creature to flesh as the stone to flesh spell. If an ounce of it is applied to the flesh of a nonpetrified creature, it protects the creature as a stoneskin spell. Strong abjuration and transmutation; CL 13th; Craft Wondrous Item, flesh to stone, stoneskin; Price 4,000 gp per ounce. Don't leave your home plane without it.
Salla 12-06-07, 01:27 AM	I didn't know plane shift was a cleric spell AND a 5th level one too. I don't know why wasn't that proposed by our cleric. Plane Shift, unfortunately, has the little side clause of: "Precise accuracy as to a particular arrival location on the intended plane is nigh impossible." :banghead: I can't see any ability-based way your characters can get this sorcerer un-stoned. I really like the side quest idea and think your GM, who has to be in the same boat of not wanting a player sitting idly by, will craft up something for you. Well, the Cleric can Plane Shift them out of there; hopefully, the Sorcerer has Teleport and a good place etched into his memory to teleport to.
HawkTheOne-Handed 12-06-07, 04:16 PM	Are you sure Break Enchantment doesn't work? I have trouble seeing petrification not counting as 'a transmutation'. The spell description specifically mentions Flesh to Stone, which the gaze certainly resembles. At any rate ... This illustrates why save-or-dies (in this case, it's as good as dying) suck ... if Break Enchantment doesn't work, and Stone to Flesh is 6th level and you have no way of getting a scroll of it, you're pretty hosed. Just reread the spell now and have to agree. It does appear to break petrification effects (not just flesh to stone). You'd have to be a pretty severe dm to not allow that.
Grizzled Gryphon 12-06-07, 07:59 PM	Well, the Cleric can Plane Shift them out of there; hopefully, the Sorcerer has Teleport and a good place etched into his memory to teleport to. Except the Sorcerer is a statue...
Salla 12-07-07, 12:02 AM	Except the Sorcerer is a statue... Okay, I somehow misread and thought someone else got stoned. My bad.