Help with Shifter Class Conflict!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with Shifter Class Conflict!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NSGRIZZZLY
08-15-06, 09:17 PM Hello everyone.

I am dire need of some much needed knowledge. It seems I made a Level 11 character for a friends D&D Campaign which is Druid 5/Shifter 6. With the Shifter Prestiege Class, I gain Greater Wild Shape instead of the usual Wild Shape. The problem began when I wanted to wildshape into a Magical Beast..a Chimera. My DM said there is no way I can choose that form, unless I am "familiar with it" according to the rules. He understands that as being I have either seen one or fought one.

The Shifter class has many shapes I can change into. Thus far is Animal, Beast, Humanoid, Monsterous Humanoid, Plant, Ooze, Aberration, Vermin, Giant Shape & Magical Beast. If I started out at Level 1 as a Druid, and played through til Level 11 (Shifter 6), he says there are many things I may not have come in contact with...ie a Dragon. (Shifter gets Dragon shape at level 7).

What I need to know is if anyone out there knows whether or not a Shifter automatically is familiar with these shapes (Creatures/Monsters) due to the class ability of being able to change into them, or is it just the ones the Shifter is familiar with. And if it is the latter, what good is the Prestiege Class of Shifter, being that you can achieve a new shape to change into, but unless you have seen one in your "characters life", you are unable to obtain???

We are playing 3rd Edition D&D.

I would really appreciate any and all input on this matter. We've asked other local gamers, hit the books and still came up blank. I said to them, time to ask the pros!!

Thanks everyone!!!

NSGRIZZZLY
Kradlo
08-15-06, 10:23 PM What you are referring to is the Master of Many Forms prestige class from Complete Adventurer (pg 58). For a Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 6, you'll have improved wild shape with the options of choosing humanoid (1st), giant (2nd), monstrous humanoid (3rd), fey (4th), vermin (5th), and aberration (6th). The progression continues with plant (7th), ooze (8th), elemental (9th), and dragon (10th).

Your GM is certainly within his rights to keep you from using knowledge that your character wouldn't have to use his powers. But, remember that not only can your character have knowledge of monsters that he has encountered in his adventuring career (ask your GM to provide you a sample list), but you can know about monsters using Knowledge skills.

Knowledge (Arcana) covers dragons and magical beasts.
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) covers oozes.
Knowledge (Nature) covers animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, and vermin.

Knowlege (Nature) is a class skill for druids and the MoMF. You'd have to take the others as cross-class skills, but it would be worth it to you, especially in this instance. An 11th level character can have a maximum of 14 skill ranks in his class skills, and a maximum of 7 ranks in cross-class skills (at double cost).

You could take a human with the Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny. You'd only spend 7 points for those 7 ranks then.

Again, ask your GM for a list of the creature that you would have encountered in your rise to level 11. It should have a cross-section of creatures with Challenge Ratings going from 1 (or less) up to 11 or slightly higher. Then, each time you encounter a new creature, add it to your list. We oldtimers used to have to do this for polymorph self for our wizards.
GDarius
08-15-06, 10:48 PM The problem with most shapeshifting abilities in D&D is that "...familiar with..." is never fully defined. Your DM is perfectly free to say that it means anything from "you have dissected 30 [insert creature]s over a period of four years" to "you remember seeing [insert creature] in a magazine once", or anything in between.

I'd say that "You've faced it in combat" is a semi-reasonable requirement.

Personally, I give MoMFs the ability to make Knowledge checks at each level to determine what forms they are "familiar with". The reason I do this is that otherwise the party Wizard can be a better shifter using Polymorph and the like.
SoldierOfFortune187
08-15-06, 11:26 PM While I can't quote for you the literature that it came from, I do expressly remember seeing something about becoming familiar with a creature or race could be defined as spending a day amongst and studying them. While battle may give one insight into what abilities a creature may have, I believe a more thorough observation is required than fighting for one's own life and trying to take notes.

This is a personal ruling.
NSGRIZZZLY
08-16-06, 11:44 AM Hello everyone, thanks for all the different ideas and help. Kradlo, the prestiege class Shifter is actually from Masters of The Wild, a 3rd Edition book. So the sizes and shapes are different, but I'm gonna go over the knowledge idea with my DM and see what happens.

nsgrizzzly
Zelle
08-25-06, 10:55 AM I'm running into a similiar problem, and I can't even shift yet!

My DM is being pretty firm that I have to have seen ("studied from afar" works) or fought an animal in order to be "familiar" enough to shift into it. Seeing as I'm going druid/nature's warrior, unless I happen upon a zoo (and try to free everything in sight,) it's gonna be rough. And Knowledge (Nature) checks don't fly with him.

We started at level 3, and had all traveled from the Dalelands to the Silver Marches together where the playing actually started, but somehow I saw zero animals on the way through all that terrain. The only thing he's allowing other than a "sanity cap" (IE, I very likely know wtf a dog and cat look like) are that I "know" anything I can summon. Which is SOMETHING at least.

(At least he eased up on my getting a new animal companion when I leveled. He was making me stick to the terrain defintions, despite it not saying where they come from. I had been planning all along on getting a leopard at 4 over the wolf I had (my original wolf had died already, and the new wolf I got came to me complete with Malarite markings on it's muzzle and paws o.O I didn't really think that was gonna fly when we entered Silverymoon,))
Zuj
08-25-06, 03:24 PM Hello everyone, thanks for all the different ideas and help. Kradlo, the prestiege class Shifter is actually from Masters of The Wild, a 3rd Edition book. So the sizes and shapes are different, but I'm gonna go over the knowledge idea with my DM and see what happens.

nsgrizzzly

The Master of Many Forms from Complete Adventurer actually replaces the Shifter in Masters of the Wild. I highly suggest using the updated prestige class (MoMF). It is a bit better balanced.
Echo_that_Pains
08-25-06, 03:49 PM "A: Awesome question! When Demogorgon first appeared (in the original 1st Edition Monster Manual), he had baboon heads. At the time Book of Vile Darkness was being written, folks decided that baboon heads were silly, and so they were changed to hyena heads (hyenas being much cooler than baboons at the time). Well, with the Miniatures Handbook and the Aspect of Demogorgon miniature (in the Archfiends set), we decided to return to Demogorgon's roots and bring back the baboon heads (baboons being much cooler than hyenas at the time). We simply carried this forward with Fiendish Codex I."

Awesome! I love it!!
Kradlo
08-25-06, 04:22 PM Hello everyone, thanks for all the different ideas and help. Kradlo, the prestiege class Shifter is actually from Masters of The Wild, a 3rd Edition book. So the sizes and shapes are different, but I'm gonna go over the knowledge idea with my DM and see what happens.

nsgrizzzly
Yep, as answered by Zuj:

From Wizards 3.5 update list:

Shifter MW 68 Revised for v.3.5; renamed Adv 58
Master of Many Forms

So you should be using the Master of Many Forms from Complete Adventurer. It's the 3.5 revised version of the Shifter prestige class.
NinjaPenguin
08-26-06, 12:54 AM The issue here isn't which version of the class the OP should be using, its how to become 'familiar with' a creature type.

There is no good answer, but I'd allow in my own games Knowledge checks, direct experience either in combat or in a peaceful manner, or dedicated research, which would take anywhere from a day or two (for simple, common creatures) to a week or possibly much more, and sometimes with the help of a sage (for the rarest like Prismatic Dragons and such)

There should be multiple ways, that way you're not forced into 'safari' mode. Nothing more dull that going out to collect yet another form that you should have had levels ago. (Gotta catch 'em all!)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NSGRIZZZLY 08-15-06, 09:17 PM	Hello everyone. I am dire need of some much needed knowledge. It seems I made a Level 11 character for a friends D&D Campaign which is Druid 5/Shifter 6. With the Shifter Prestiege Class, I gain Greater Wild Shape instead of the usual Wild Shape. The problem began when I wanted to wildshape into a Magical Beast..a Chimera. My DM said there is no way I can choose that form, unless I am "familiar with it" according to the rules. He understands that as being I have either seen one or fought one. The Shifter class has many shapes I can change into. Thus far is Animal, Beast, Humanoid, Monsterous Humanoid, Plant, Ooze, Aberration, Vermin, Giant Shape & Magical Beast. If I started out at Level 1 as a Druid, and played through til Level 11 (Shifter 6), he says there are many things I may not have come in contact with...ie a Dragon. (Shifter gets Dragon shape at level 7). What I need to know is if anyone out there knows whether or not a Shifter automatically is familiar with these shapes (Creatures/Monsters) due to the class ability of being able to change into them, or is it just the ones the Shifter is familiar with. And if it is the latter, what good is the Prestiege Class of Shifter, being that you can achieve a new shape to change into, but unless you have seen one in your "characters life", you are unable to obtain??? We are playing 3rd Edition D&D. I would really appreciate any and all input on this matter. We've asked other local gamers, hit the books and still came up blank. I said to them, time to ask the pros!! Thanks everyone!!! NSGRIZZZLY
Kradlo 08-15-06, 10:23 PM	What you are referring to is the Master of Many Forms prestige class from Complete Adventurer (pg 58). For a Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 6, you'll have improved wild shape with the options of choosing humanoid (1st), giant (2nd), monstrous humanoid (3rd), fey (4th), vermin (5th), and aberration (6th). The progression continues with plant (7th), ooze (8th), elemental (9th), and dragon (10th). Your GM is certainly within his rights to keep you from using knowledge that your character wouldn't have to use his powers. But, remember that not only can your character have knowledge of monsters that he has encountered in his adventuring career (ask your GM to provide you a sample list), but you can know about monsters using Knowledge skills. Knowledge (Arcana) covers dragons and magical beasts. Knowledge (Dungeoneering) covers oozes. Knowledge (Nature) covers animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, and vermin. Knowlege (Nature) is a class skill for druids and the MoMF. You'd have to take the others as cross-class skills, but it would be worth it to you, especially in this instance. An 11th level character can have a maximum of 14 skill ranks in his class skills, and a maximum of 7 ranks in cross-class skills (at double cost). You could take a human with the Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny. You'd only spend 7 points for those 7 ranks then. Again, ask your GM for a list of the creature that you would have encountered in your rise to level 11. It should have a cross-section of creatures with Challenge Ratings going from 1 (or less) up to 11 or slightly higher. Then, each time you encounter a new creature, add it to your list. We oldtimers used to have to do this for polymorph self for our wizards.
GDarius 08-15-06, 10:48 PM	The problem with most shapeshifting abilities in D&D is that "...familiar with..." is never fully defined. Your DM is perfectly free to say that it means anything from "you have dissected 30 [insert creature]s over a period of four years" to "you remember seeing [insert creature] in a magazine once", or anything in between. I'd say that "You've faced it in combat" is a semi-reasonable requirement. Personally, I give MoMFs the ability to make Knowledge checks at each level to determine what forms they are "familiar with". The reason I do this is that otherwise the party Wizard can be a better shifter using Polymorph and the like.
SoldierOfFortune187 08-15-06, 11:26 PM	While I can't quote for you the literature that it came from, I do expressly remember seeing something about becoming familiar with a creature or race could be defined as spending a day amongst and studying them. While battle may give one insight into what abilities a creature may have, I believe a more thorough observation is required than fighting for one's own life and trying to take notes. This is a personal ruling.
NSGRIZZZLY 08-16-06, 11:44 AM	Hello everyone, thanks for all the different ideas and help. Kradlo, the prestiege class Shifter is actually from Masters of The Wild, a 3rd Edition book. So the sizes and shapes are different, but I'm gonna go over the knowledge idea with my DM and see what happens. nsgrizzzly
Zelle 08-25-06, 10:55 AM	I'm running into a similiar problem, and I can't even shift yet! My DM is being pretty firm that I have to have seen ("studied from afar" works) or fought an animal in order to be "familiar" enough to shift into it. Seeing as I'm going druid/nature's warrior, unless I happen upon a zoo (and try to free everything in sight,) it's gonna be rough. And Knowledge (Nature) checks don't fly with him. We started at level 3, and had all traveled from the Dalelands to the Silver Marches together where the playing actually started, but somehow I saw zero animals on the way through all that terrain. The only thing he's allowing other than a "sanity cap" (IE, I very likely know wtf a dog and cat look like) are that I "know" anything I can summon. Which is SOMETHING at least. (At least he eased up on my getting a new animal companion when I leveled. He was making me stick to the terrain defintions, despite it not saying where they come from. I had been planning all along on getting a leopard at 4 over the wolf I had (my original wolf had died already, and the new wolf I got came to me complete with Malarite markings on it's muzzle and paws o.O I didn't really think that was gonna fly when we entered Silverymoon,))
Zuj 08-25-06, 03:24 PM	Hello everyone, thanks for all the different ideas and help. Kradlo, the prestiege class Shifter is actually from Masters of The Wild, a 3rd Edition book. So the sizes and shapes are different, but I'm gonna go over the knowledge idea with my DM and see what happens. nsgrizzzly The Master of Many Forms from Complete Adventurer actually replaces the Shifter in Masters of the Wild. I highly suggest using the updated prestige class (MoMF). It is a bit better balanced.
Echo_that_Pains 08-25-06, 03:49 PM	"A: Awesome question! When Demogorgon first appeared (in the original 1st Edition Monster Manual), he had baboon heads. At the time Book of Vile Darkness was being written, folks decided that baboon heads were silly, and so they were changed to hyena heads (hyenas being much cooler than baboons at the time). Well, with the Miniatures Handbook and the Aspect of Demogorgon miniature (in the Archfiends set), we decided to return to Demogorgon's roots and bring back the baboon heads (baboons being much cooler than hyenas at the time). We simply carried this forward with Fiendish Codex I." Awesome! I love it!!
Kradlo 08-25-06, 04:22 PM	Hello everyone, thanks for all the different ideas and help. Kradlo, the prestiege class Shifter is actually from Masters of The Wild, a 3rd Edition book. So the sizes and shapes are different, but I'm gonna go over the knowledge idea with my DM and see what happens. nsgrizzzly Yep, as answered by Zuj: From Wizards 3.5 update list: Shifter MW 68 Revised for v.3.5; renamed Adv 58 Master of Many Forms So you should be using the Master of Many Forms from Complete Adventurer. It's the 3.5 revised version of the Shifter prestige class.
NinjaPenguin 08-26-06, 12:54 AM	The issue here isn't which version of the class the OP should be using, its how to become 'familiar with' a creature type. There is no good answer, but I'd allow in my own games Knowledge checks, direct experience either in combat or in a peaceful manner, or dedicated research, which would take anywhere from a day or two (for simple, common creatures) to a week or possibly much more, and sometimes with the help of a sage (for the rarest like Prismatic Dragons and such) There should be multiple ways, that way you're not forced into 'safari' mode. Nothing more dull that going out to collect yet another form that you should have had levels ago. (Gotta catch 'em all!)