Help with Tactics in climactic Encounter (long) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with Tactics in climactic Encounter (long) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Daddio42
11-15-04, 09:10 AM I would sincerely appreciate help from master tacticians out there who can ignore the semi(?)-munchkinness of the situation.

After more than 4 years in the present campaign, our DM is moving out of the area. Our characters have progressed from first level to near-epic stature. (The PCs were converted to 3.5 during this time.) The PCs need to prepare for a climactic showdown with the ultimate BBEG of this adventure, and save the world, restore balance, blah, blah, blah.

The heroes: 18th level human Cleric of Pelor, 18th level half-elf Psion Kineticist, 17th level elf Fighter (bow specialist), 15th level dwarf Rogue/Gatecrasher, and 15th level human Druid with lots of shape shifting ability. (The wizard’s player moved away recently.)

The situation: The campaign is set in a home brewed world with all of the standard classes and races. PC allies are either much lower level or above the fray.
BBEG: Apparently human. The PCs assume he is 24th to 26th level, and, think, he is some combination of cleric, arcane magic user, and 15 or so levels of a DM-brewed prestige class called Wanderer (probably based on a mid-80s movie character or perhaps the Kung Fu guy), but which allows progression in spell levels in all casting/manifesting base classes. The PCs last encountered him as he completed a spell (series of spells?) that involved sacrificing an ancient bronze dragon while some fire giants slaughtered lots of goblins. (By the way, in that stronghold, the characters bypassed or defeated some medium-level demons, including two balors.) It seemed like the spell greatly enhanced the BBEG’s life force, elevating him to near-godhood. The party attempted to take him on at that time, but he laughed and vanished. The PCs don’t know where he is, but think they can find him and get to him on any plane. What do they do, then?

Mechanics Psionics/magic transparency. Cleric is mid-18th level and could burn XP for 2 Miracles. Psion is nearly 19th level and could burn 17k XP on various uses of Bend Reality power (psionic limited wish).

The current strategy: Cleric locates him; psion transports the party in the Ethereal or Astral planes to a location nearly coincident with that of the BBEG (in whatever plane he currently resides), buff up (temporary HP, energy DR, blessings/holy weapons, inertial armor, Spell/Power resistance, boosted saves); attack with mostly ranged attacks/spells/powers and hope to overwhelm him before he can bring too many of his minions to bear. The tide of the battle ought to be apparent within about 30 – 45 seconds. Expect there to be a few demons on hand upon arrival, plus 2 known cohorts - a 16th-17th level ghost half-orc rogue and a 16th-17th level cleave style human fighter. The PCs can dimensional anchor opponents and can prevent gating in of allies. Both of these are dispel-able. The fighter has pretty much all of the ranged fighting feats; the rogue is stealthy, tough, and maybe a little too audacious; the psion has a good range of offensive and some defensive powers; the druid is very tough and dangerous up close; and the cleric is just a freaking 18th-level Cleric of Pelor!

The dilemma: The current, very rough, plan surely has flaws. What do you suggest the PCs do when they find him? (Bend over and kiss it goodbye is an option.) We realize that even a perfect plan works until first contact with the enemy.
Jeefit the meephit
11-15-04, 04:24 PM First off is this a dire time limited situation? Do you have as much time as you need to prepare or is this a "the world ends in two hours so make it snappy" kind of situation.

My second questions would be do you have access to any kind of scrying? Becaue scrying his location could tell you what kind of cver you could show up behind, and how "occupied" he is.

Third what kind of spells/psionics do you have access to? This makes up a lot of need to know tactical information.

fourth what kind of allies have you accrued over your eighteen levels? Can you rely on them? Do you have aquiantances?

Could you go find a dragon a few levels lower (preferably good aligned) and convice him to help you "save the world" Because if this is going to be an epic final battle against an epic Npc and the last meeting your gaming group will have under this dm lets face it... We want this to be as epic as possible right?

So first gather up all the forces of good you can in that time, at worst they serve as extra hps. Then map out the terrain and use the caster to deploy the troops in sequence, buff then group 1 tp's in close (probably use cleric to "head" this group), once their engaged group 2(Psion if has access to planeshifting, if not GC) comes in behind them. And finally group three (can druids Planeshift?) waits until they are getting low and comes in as a support to the rank with the most fallen. At worst each planeshift could take seven ppl of near to your level with you; as best you miracle a gate somehow and force through an 18 hd solar and cause it to chain gate, letting your god help to save the balance; or ask how many third level spells you could miracle out... that many explosive runes on a rock. Then deliver the rock to reading distance from the BBEG and fail an area dispel on the rock, they all go off, no save no sr X x (6d6) damage (where X is the number of runes on the rock possibly kill him with enough runes.) But for sheer epic-ness call in all of your favors, even some that you dont have. and get a whole army of the light to take him on, after ll he has followers right? Should youve guys have some also high level contacts? Even if they are just aquaintances.

Reminds me of Princess Mononoke; get a big army and let them help you kill this level 26 of Godlike power. You'll need all the help you can get with an eight level difference.
Daddio42
11-17-04, 09:36 AM Jeefit the meephit Thanks for the detailed questions. You pointed out a number of issues I hadn't considered.
First off is this a dire time limited situation? Do you have as much time as you need to prepare or is this a "the world ends in two hours so make it snappy" kind of situation.
We will treat it as a dire, time limited situation because of the DM's immanent departure. However, I'd like to develop a plan based on an assumption of sufficient prep time.
My second questions would be do you have access to any kind of scrying? Becaue scrying his location could tell you what kind of cver you could show up behind, and how "occupied" he is.
We can scry, either by the psion using XP to manifest Remote Viewing or via the cleric's know location type spells.
Third what kind of spells/psionics do you have access to? This makes up a lot of need to know tactical information.
The cleric has access to the full range of non-evil divine spells, while the psion has:
6th - Disintegrate, Temporal Acceleration, Aura Alteration;
7th - Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Reddopsi (rebound on manifester/caster one targeted power/spell), Fate of One (reroll one roll as an immediate action);
8th - Bend Reality (psionic limited wish- gives access to all psionic powers 5th level and lower, which I thought he might use to create a few 9th level astral constructs, Schism, and possibley others), Telekinetic Sphere, Greater Teleport
9th - Tornado Blast, Etherealness.
He has the feat to psionically focus as a move action, can focus his psicrystal (so he can expend 2 foci on a turn), can slightly increase his ability to beat PR/SR, and can empower powers (variable results increased by 1.5).
fourth what kind of allies have you accrued over your eighteen levels? Can you rely on them? Do you have aquiantances?
Our more powerful allies (an emerald dragon, and an elven demigod (DM-brew), have advised that they are so neutral that they'll offer naught but advice. Other named NPC acquaintances are about 10th-level: a human rogue, a human bard, and a dwarf fighter. We have uneasy alliances with ice giants, fire giants, and dragon-people. We have a truce with an ancient dracolich, but he seems to be interested only in collecting dragon eggs. The cleric has a few (at most, mid-level) subordinates, plus a congregation of, maybe, 150 commoners. There a a few villages' worth of other commoners that owe their survival to the party, but wouldn't be more than cannon fodder in an epic battle.
Could you go find a dragon a few levels lower (preferably good aligned) and convice him to help you "save the world" Because if this is going to be an epic final battle against an epic Npc and the last meeting your gaming group will have under this dm lets face it... We want this to be as epic as possible right?
I mentioned the extremely neutral emerald dragon above. There is a sizeable white whom the party has avoided since slaying her mate. Don't know how they could sway her.
The party can plane shift, mass teleport, and travel in both the Astral and Ethereal planes.
Additional advice would be highly appreciated.
Winsome
11-17-04, 10:49 AM If the bad guy sacrificed a Bronze dragon then surely that's at least opening terms for discussion with some other Bronzes?

Is the bad guy actually up to anything world ending? If he's just ordering carpets and picking curtains then convincing other entities to give him a good shoeing isn't going to be easy.

You mentioned getting Advice from a Dragon and Demigod, that's got to be worth something.

Maybe there's some information about this ritual he performed, it seemed to up his power, but perhaps it gives him a weakness you could exploit.
Jeefit the meephit
11-17-04, 05:14 PM Ok, in a "dire" situation I would still approach the Elven Demigod (using an elven spokesman) and the Emerald Dragon (who ever is the best rp diplomat; stress actual oratory over dice rolls as it may actually convince the Dm whereas a few rolls may be disregarded) talk about heros and legends and saving the world and how neccesary their help is because you are woefully weak compared to X destroy the world guy; upsetting the balance. Whatever arguement/speech you think would sway them. If they still refuse ask if they know anyone who can help or if they have any remaining advice.

Also note this is advised; not set in stone so a most rousing IC speech has a great Rp potential and a great chance to sway the battle. Also if he ascended to near goodhood it may be that other gods dont like this intruder into their powr-strata ask about opposed gods; go find them and ask for help; super-god-magic or god help in person; or even a few angels to bolster the ranks.

Then I would go and collect up my allies as fast as possible. Even tenth level fodder can help through a horde of demons and can earn their own names as heroes in an epic battle.

I also think you should definitely keep tabs on him as well with scrying; If you have x days have the cleric mem a couple while you are looking for allies.

But I side with winsome in asking if you know his intention. If he just wants to be a god; and not cause mischeif let him. However if he is truly a BBEG; and you have proof and evidence use it n the speeches, and make with the epic final battle. You need as much of a group as you can recruit (call in all favors owed).

Now for player tactics -- he can obviously planeshift, if he couldn't then a nice trip to positive or negative energy plane, or elysium could finish him off (if they are in your cosmology).

But with what you have here's what I have for you. Fist of if your psion doesn't have the "psychofeedback loop" going and you ont want to be cheesy dont use disintegrate, use the psion as a reddopsi point ready action to use it when the enemy caster casts a mid-high level spell (if he cant decipher the difference have someone with spellcraft call out a command like "nix" or counteritnoworwe'reallgonnadie!) that way you can nullify some of his best and most harmful spells (see if you can rebound an epic spell...)

The cleric to me hould bless all hands before battle; then use gate once there, gate as man times as possible; Use the option to force something through for 1rd/lvl of up to equal HD to you, so some really great big monster.)

The druid should turn into something nasty and hit up minions or him once gatecrasher has the "no summons up"; the gatecrasher should go to him and use that "null summon field" just to make sure he isn't gating in anything.

In fact; you could before battle use the druid spells all in summon monsters, cleric casts gate, the army charges through and expends their rounds fighting everything. The druid wildshapes and enters, and everyone takes their role. Psion reflects powers, bow fighter does whatever ( He can hoot the bbeg if his damage is low, if high then he might want to kill minions as they pop up) Cleric summons, heals, dispels, fights. Gatecrasher does his thing.

I mean for an epic battle nothing compae to number and numbers of blessed summn natures allies acting as fodder would give you a magic army (dont worry about dispel magic; reddopsi it back on the bbeg).

Otherwise it's such a general list that I really cant give you anything else without a map and minis; and full capabilities, you'd be suprised how some things just slip by; however, this is the stuff you think is important; that is how I would use it. Other than that I cant think of anything else to suggest; good luck!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Daddio42 11-15-04, 09:10 AM	I would sincerely appreciate help from master tacticians out there who can ignore the semi(?)-munchkinness of the situation. After more than 4 years in the present campaign, our DM is moving out of the area. Our characters have progressed from first level to near-epic stature. (The PCs were converted to 3.5 during this time.) The PCs need to prepare for a climactic showdown with the ultimate BBEG of this adventure, and save the world, restore balance, blah, blah, blah. The heroes: 18th level human Cleric of Pelor, 18th level half-elf Psion Kineticist, 17th level elf Fighter (bow specialist), 15th level dwarf Rogue/Gatecrasher, and 15th level human Druid with lots of shape shifting ability. (The wizard’s player moved away recently.) The situation: The campaign is set in a home brewed world with all of the standard classes and races. PC allies are either much lower level or above the fray. BBEG: Apparently human. The PCs assume he is 24th to 26th level, and, think, he is some combination of cleric, arcane magic user, and 15 or so levels of a DM-brewed prestige class called Wanderer (probably based on a mid-80s movie character or perhaps the Kung Fu guy), but which allows progression in spell levels in all casting/manifesting base classes. The PCs last encountered him as he completed a spell (series of spells?) that involved sacrificing an ancient bronze dragon while some fire giants slaughtered lots of goblins. (By the way, in that stronghold, the characters bypassed or defeated some medium-level demons, including two balors.) It seemed like the spell greatly enhanced the BBEG’s life force, elevating him to near-godhood. The party attempted to take him on at that time, but he laughed and vanished. The PCs don’t know where he is, but think they can find him and get to him on any plane. What do they do, then? Mechanics Psionics/magic transparency. Cleric is mid-18th level and could burn XP for 2 Miracles. Psion is nearly 19th level and could burn 17k XP on various uses of Bend Reality power (psionic limited wish). The current strategy: Cleric locates him; psion transports the party in the Ethereal or Astral planes to a location nearly coincident with that of the BBEG (in whatever plane he currently resides), buff up (temporary HP, energy DR, blessings/holy weapons, inertial armor, Spell/Power resistance, boosted saves); attack with mostly ranged attacks/spells/powers and hope to overwhelm him before he can bring too many of his minions to bear. The tide of the battle ought to be apparent within about 30 – 45 seconds. Expect there to be a few demons on hand upon arrival, plus 2 known cohorts - a 16th-17th level ghost half-orc rogue and a 16th-17th level cleave style human fighter. The PCs can dimensional anchor opponents and can prevent gating in of allies. Both of these are dispel-able. The fighter has pretty much all of the ranged fighting feats; the rogue is stealthy, tough, and maybe a little too audacious; the psion has a good range of offensive and some defensive powers; the druid is very tough and dangerous up close; and the cleric is just a freaking 18th-level Cleric of Pelor! The dilemma: The current, very rough, plan surely has flaws. What do you suggest the PCs do when they find him? (Bend over and kiss it goodbye is an option.) We realize that even a perfect plan works until first contact with the enemy.
Jeefit the meephit 11-15-04, 04:24 PM	First off is this a dire time limited situation? Do you have as much time as you need to prepare or is this a "the world ends in two hours so make it snappy" kind of situation. My second questions would be do you have access to any kind of scrying? Becaue scrying his location could tell you what kind of cver you could show up behind, and how "occupied" he is. Third what kind of spells/psionics do you have access to? This makes up a lot of need to know tactical information. fourth what kind of allies have you accrued over your eighteen levels? Can you rely on them? Do you have aquiantances? Could you go find a dragon a few levels lower (preferably good aligned) and convice him to help you "save the world" Because if this is going to be an epic final battle against an epic Npc and the last meeting your gaming group will have under this dm lets face it... We want this to be as epic as possible right? So first gather up all the forces of good you can in that time, at worst they serve as extra hps. Then map out the terrain and use the caster to deploy the troops in sequence, buff then group 1 tp's in close (probably use cleric to "head" this group), once their engaged group 2(Psion if has access to planeshifting, if not GC) comes in behind them. And finally group three (can druids Planeshift?) waits until they are getting low and comes in as a support to the rank with the most fallen. At worst each planeshift could take seven ppl of near to your level with you; as best you miracle a gate somehow and force through an 18 hd solar and cause it to chain gate, letting your god help to save the balance; or ask how many third level spells you could miracle out... that many explosive runes on a rock. Then deliver the rock to reading distance from the BBEG and fail an area dispel on the rock, they all go off, no save no sr X x (6d6) damage (where X is the number of runes on the rock possibly kill him with enough runes.) But for sheer epic-ness call in all of your favors, even some that you dont have. and get a whole army of the light to take him on, after ll he has followers right? Should youve guys have some also high level contacts? Even if they are just aquaintances. Reminds me of Princess Mononoke; get a big army and let them help you kill this level 26 of Godlike power. You'll need all the help you can get with an eight level difference.
Daddio42 11-17-04, 09:36 AM	Jeefit the meephit Thanks for the detailed questions. You pointed out a number of issues I hadn't considered. First off is this a dire time limited situation? Do you have as much time as you need to prepare or is this a "the world ends in two hours so make it snappy" kind of situation. We will treat it as a dire, time limited situation because of the DM's immanent departure. However, I'd like to develop a plan based on an assumption of sufficient prep time. My second questions would be do you have access to any kind of scrying? Becaue scrying his location could tell you what kind of cver you could show up behind, and how "occupied" he is. We can scry, either by the psion using XP to manifest Remote Viewing or via the cleric's know location type spells. Third what kind of spells/psionics do you have access to? This makes up a lot of need to know tactical information. The cleric has access to the full range of non-evil divine spells, while the psion has: 6th - Disintegrate, Temporal Acceleration, Aura Alteration; 7th - Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Reddopsi (rebound on manifester/caster one targeted power/spell), Fate of One (reroll one roll as an immediate action); 8th - Bend Reality (psionic limited wish- gives access to all psionic powers 5th level and lower, which I thought he might use to create a few 9th level astral constructs, Schism, and possibley others), Telekinetic Sphere, Greater Teleport 9th - Tornado Blast, Etherealness. He has the feat to psionically focus as a move action, can focus his psicrystal (so he can expend 2 foci on a turn), can slightly increase his ability to beat PR/SR, and can empower powers (variable results increased by 1.5). fourth what kind of allies have you accrued over your eighteen levels? Can you rely on them? Do you have aquiantances? Our more powerful allies (an emerald dragon, and an elven demigod (DM-brew), have advised that they are so neutral that they'll offer naught but advice. Other named NPC acquaintances are about 10th-level: a human rogue, a human bard, and a dwarf fighter. We have uneasy alliances with ice giants, fire giants, and dragon-people. We have a truce with an ancient dracolich, but he seems to be interested only in collecting dragon eggs. The cleric has a few (at most, mid-level) subordinates, plus a congregation of, maybe, 150 commoners. There a a few villages' worth of other commoners that owe their survival to the party, but wouldn't be more than cannon fodder in an epic battle. Could you go find a dragon a few levels lower (preferably good aligned) and convice him to help you "save the world" Because if this is going to be an epic final battle against an epic Npc and the last meeting your gaming group will have under this dm lets face it... We want this to be as epic as possible right? I mentioned the extremely neutral emerald dragon above. There is a sizeable white whom the party has avoided since slaying her mate. Don't know how they could sway her. The party can plane shift, mass teleport, and travel in both the Astral and Ethereal planes. Additional advice would be highly appreciated.
Winsome 11-17-04, 10:49 AM	If the bad guy sacrificed a Bronze dragon then surely that's at least opening terms for discussion with some other Bronzes? Is the bad guy actually up to anything world ending? If he's just ordering carpets and picking curtains then convincing other entities to give him a good shoeing isn't going to be easy. You mentioned getting Advice from a Dragon and Demigod, that's got to be worth something. Maybe there's some information about this ritual he performed, it seemed to up his power, but perhaps it gives him a weakness you could exploit.
Jeefit the meephit 11-17-04, 05:14 PM	Ok, in a "dire" situation I would still approach the Elven Demigod (using an elven spokesman) and the Emerald Dragon (who ever is the best rp diplomat; stress actual oratory over dice rolls as it may actually convince the Dm whereas a few rolls may be disregarded) talk about heros and legends and saving the world and how neccesary their help is because you are woefully weak compared to X destroy the world guy; upsetting the balance. Whatever arguement/speech you think would sway them. If they still refuse ask if they know anyone who can help or if they have any remaining advice. Also note this is advised; not set in stone so a most rousing IC speech has a great Rp potential and a great chance to sway the battle. Also if he ascended to near goodhood it may be that other gods dont like this intruder into their powr-strata ask about opposed gods; go find them and ask for help; super-god-magic or god help in person; or even a few angels to bolster the ranks. Then I would go and collect up my allies as fast as possible. Even tenth level fodder can help through a horde of demons and can earn their own names as heroes in an epic battle. I also think you should definitely keep tabs on him as well with scrying; If you have x days have the cleric mem a couple while you are looking for allies. But I side with winsome in asking if you know his intention. If he just wants to be a god; and not cause mischeif let him. However if he is truly a BBEG; and you have proof and evidence use it n the speeches, and make with the epic final battle. You need as much of a group as you can recruit (call in all favors owed). Now for player tactics -- he can obviously planeshift, if he couldn't then a nice trip to positive or negative energy plane, or elysium could finish him off (if they are in your cosmology). But with what you have here's what I have for you. Fist of if your psion doesn't have the "psychofeedback loop" going and you ont want to be cheesy dont use disintegrate, use the psion as a reddopsi point ready action to use it when the enemy caster casts a mid-high level spell (if he cant decipher the difference have someone with spellcraft call out a command like "nix" or counteritnoworwe'reallgonnadie!) that way you can nullify some of his best and most harmful spells (see if you can rebound an epic spell...) The cleric to me hould bless all hands before battle; then use gate once there, gate as man times as possible; Use the option to force something through for 1rd/lvl of up to equal HD to you, so some really great big monster.) The druid should turn into something nasty and hit up minions or him once gatecrasher has the "no summons up"; the gatecrasher should go to him and use that "null summon field" just to make sure he isn't gating in anything. In fact; you could before battle use the druid spells all in summon monsters, cleric casts gate, the army charges through and expends their rounds fighting everything. The druid wildshapes and enters, and everyone takes their role. Psion reflects powers, bow fighter does whatever ( He can hoot the bbeg if his damage is low, if high then he might want to kill minions as they pop up) Cleric summons, heals, dispels, fights. Gatecrasher does his thing. I mean for an epic battle nothing compae to number and numbers of blessed summn natures allies acting as fodder would give you a magic army (dont worry about dispel magic; reddopsi it back on the bbeg). Otherwise it's such a general list that I really cant give you anything else without a map and minis; and full capabilities, you'd be suprised how some things just slip by; however, this is the stuff you think is important; that is how I would use it. Other than that I cant think of anything else to suggest; good luck!