Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sessle 11-07-06, 01:38 AM	the title is meant as a joke, but I do have a question about the combat use of wizards (mine, particularly) Wizards at low levels usually supplement their firepower with a crossbow or bow right? Well how does one cast a spell from a book if their hands are full? Is there a rule pertaining to this? thank you in advance
Salla 11-07-06, 01:42 AM	the title is meant as a joke, but I do have a question about the combat use of wizards (mine, particularly) Wizards at low levels usually supplement their firepower with a crossbow or bow right? Well how does one cast a spell from a book if their hands are full? Is there a rule pertaining to this? thank you in advance Two options: 1. Drop the bow. Just remember to pick it up later. 2. You only need one hand to cast a spell (and you only need the spellbook while preparing spells). You can hold a bow or crossbow in one hand while casting with the other; you just can't use said weapon for anything.
cog_and_taz 11-07-06, 01:42 AM	there's no rule, I think, they merely memorize it off the book and need not have it on hand.
Tempest Stormwind 11-07-06, 01:48 AM	Two options: 1. Drop the bow. Just remember to pick it up later. 2. You only need one hand to cast a spell (and you only need the spellbook while preparing spells). You can hold a bow or crossbow in one hand while casting with the other; you just can't use said weapon for anything. Incidentally, you *can* shoot a crossbow one-handed, at a penalty (typically -4) on the attack roll. But other than that, entirely correct. Wizards, as have been mentioned, don't cast spells from books. They prepare the spell first (essentially casting most of it) and then cast it later with a few components (pulling the trigger on the spell, so to speak). A bigger question would be about clerics, who still need somatic components yet carry shields and maces.
TheDarkLord 11-07-06, 01:57 AM	I have always wondered how hard it would be to cast a spell and pull the trigger on the crossbow at the same time.
Salla 11-07-06, 01:59 AM	A bigger question would be about clerics, who still need somatic components yet carry shields and maces. It's only a problem if they have a heavy shield. If they have a light shield, they can hold their mace in their shield hand (not wield it, just hold) and cast with their now-free hand (with holy symbol held therein). I believe this is a move action, as it's definitely more concentration-intensive than simply dropping a weapon.
Caliborn 11-07-06, 08:21 AM	Switching hands(on a weapon) is a free action. Technically 2 free actions, but wha'eva.
Cifer 11-07-06, 02:42 PM	If they have a light shield, they can hold their mace in their shield hand (not wield it, just hold) and cast with their now-free hand (with holy symbol held therein). I believe this is a move action, as it's definitely more concentration-intensive than simply dropping a weapon. I'd rather keep it simple: use a light shield (= automatic free hand for gestures) and emblazon your holy symbol on it. Alternatively, wear your symbol on your neck and grip it with your shieldhand while casting. This way, it probably looks cooler.
Capt. Pixel 11-07-06, 04:03 PM	Why does eveybody forget Scribe Scroll? Wizards get that feat for free! Even in my games, even with repeated suggestions, spell-casting PCs seem to blow-off the Scribe Scroll feat. Make a few of those scrolls spells that you don't memorize regularly but are darned handy in special situations (like Knock). Make scrolls of those spells you love dearly and wish you could cast over and over again (like Orb,Lesser) And for even better bang-for-your-buck: Craft Wands! 50 Magic Missiles right there at the tip of your stick. :cool:
KurenaiYami 11-07-06, 05:40 PM	Why does eveybody forget Scribe Scroll? Wizards get that feat for free! Even in my games, even with repeated suggestions, spell-casting PCs seem to blow-off the Scribe Scroll feat. Make a few of those scrolls spells that you don't memorize regularly but are darned handy in special situations (like Knock). Make scrolls of those spells you love dearly and wish you could cast over and over again (like Orb,Lesser) And for even better bang-for-your-buck: Craft Wands! 50 Magic Missiles right there at the tip of your stick. :cool: My PCs don't do the crafting thing either. The Fighters are always upset with the wizards for slowing them down that extra hour a day to memorize spells, they can't get away with an extra 8 hours on top of that. I think that argument is strange though, seeing as every so often a Fighter wanders off without a Wizard...and dies a horrible, horrible death...
TheDarkLord 11-07-06, 06:28 PM	Why does everybody forget Scribe Scroll? Wizards get that feat for free! Even in my games, even with repeated suggestions, spell-casting PCs seem to blow-off the Scribe Scroll feat. Make a few of those scrolls spells that you don't memorize regularly but are darned handy in special situations (like Knock). Make scrolls of those spells you love dearly and wish you could cast over and over again (like Orb,Lesser) And for even better bang-for-your-buck: Craft Wands! 50 Magic Missiles right there at the tip of your stick. :cool: Simple answer, XP costs for scribing scrolls. My players never used the Item creation feats because of this reason. They wondered how you could loose experience points gained adventuring by creating an item, after all, experience points represent experience gained. We pretty much had to switch to a craft points type thing in order to get someone who would and could make items for the party. If the fighter wanted a magic sword or whatever, he could get with the wizard and the wizard could pull from the fighter's craft points to create the sword for the fighter. After a while we pretty much got rid of the craft feats as well and introduced them as Craft skills instead. Only a spell-caster could create a magic item though.
Zemyla 11-07-06, 06:58 PM	Simple answer, XP costs for scribing scrolls. My players never used the Item creation feats because of this reason. They wondered how you could loose experience points gained adventuring by creating an item, after all, experience points represent experience gained. We pretty much had to switch to a craft points type thing in order to get someone who would and could make items for the party. If the fighter wanted a magic sword or whatever, he could get with the wizard and the wizard could pull from the fighter's craft points to create the sword for the fighter. After a while we pretty much got rid of the craft feats as well and introduced them as Craft skills instead. Only a spell-caster could create a magic item though. A rebuttal: Experience is a River Sure, you lose experience points by crafting. But then you eventually are a level behind, and then gain more experience from encounters than your fellow party members do. So in terms of XP, you actually come out ahead.
TheDarkLord 11-07-06, 07:22 PM	A rebuttal: Experience is a River Sure, you lose experience points by crafting. But then you eventually are a level behind, and then gain more experience from encounters than your fellow party members do. So in terms of XP, you actually come out ahead. You come out ahead, by being the same level, or a level behind. Never a level or two above, that's what I call breaking even, and most campaigns don't last long enough for infinite wealth, or do they last long enough so that you can craft whatever you want within a set time. Nice numerical breakdown, in terms of actual gameplay though, i'd like to see it proven.
DarkNick 11-07-06, 07:31 PM	You come out ahead, by being the same level, or a level behind. Never a level or two above, that's what I call breaking even, and most campaigns don't last long enough for infinite wealth, or do they last long enough so that you can craft whatever you want within a set time. Nice numerical breakdown, in terms of actual gameplay though, i'd like to see it proven. If two character gets the same experience, and one of them is a level lower because they used up exp to create items, then the next time they both get experience the mage gets more (because they are lower level). So if you add up all the experience the two characters have received in their careers the mage comes out on top. That's what Zemyla was pointing out (at least I think they were). How does this need proof?
TheDarkLord 11-07-06, 09:20 PM	Proof that during a campaign that has a set amount of encounters, a person who spends XP crafting everything they want, will not wind up equal in level to the other players before that campaign ends. Mathematically proof is there that eventually that character will catch up (hence make up ground by gaining more xp) but to make up said ground while crafting very expensive items will be difficult to do if the player is continually updating and creating (burning) more and more XP. I don't think it would be a practical thing to do in an actual campaign. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but every campaign I've been in, especially towards the end, if a player loses a level for whatever reason, they have a hard time catching up before the end of the campaign.
Capt. Pixel 11-07-06, 10:48 PM	If you 'zero out' your Experience Points each time you level up a PC, the loss of making a few scrolls has a minimal impact on speed of advancement. My characters almost always give up several hundred XP at each level of advancement. 10% loss in XP seems to be an average 'loss', IME. CL1 scrolls cost 1XP. CL4 scrolls cost less than 9XP each. That's a lot of 1st and 2nd level spells for 200XP. In one day, you can create 1,000 GP worth of scrolls (40XP). Don't tell me that there aren't times when even the 'Tanks' have to sit it out for a day to get their precious hit points back. (Sometimes even the Cleric can't keep up with their damage) ;) A Cleric with the Scribe Scroll Feat can make a few quicky Cure Light Wounds spells in a pouch at 1/4 the cost of buying the potion. Isn't it nice when she has a Restoration, Lesser tucked away for that unfortunate time when you really need one? Or when the Rogue fails the Open Lock check but the Wiz has a Knock scroll to use? AND You don't have to make the scrolls, you can usually buy them too. This is a particularly handy option for Clerics, et al. Those scrolls can also be used by your friendly neighborhood Rogue. If GP cost is an issue, get your Party to pitch in for the cost of purchasing or creating scrolls that benefit the party. I recently convinced my Party that 75GP was a good investment for a Snake Swiftness, Mass scroll. It costs my Druid 6XP to scribe them. That one scroll was instrumental in winning our next encounter. For that encounter we each received 1,000 XP and 200 GP. Just as a Fighter should have a back-up weapon available, the spell caster should stock up on scrolls and/or wands. Remind your DM that the Wizard isn't some mook who can just show a whetstone to his weapon, cinch up a few armor straps and be 'ready-to-go'. Your wizard needs in-game time to plan, plot and prepare before that next big dungeon crawl. While the Fighters spend the day buying weapons, ammunition and better armor, the Wizard should be scribing, scribing, scribing. If you want the other players to appreciate Scrolls, make a big show of getting out your 'expensive' scroll and casting just the right spell at just the right time. If you do this often enough, they'll eventually get the point. Incidentally, a Wand cost 60% of 50 scrolls' cost and takes 2/3 the time to create an equal number of scrolls. So when I hear a low-level PC Wizard complain about having 2 spells and then having to run away, it just cracks me up that they don't take advantage of that freebie Feat - Scribe Scroll :cool:
Dragonsblood 11-08-06, 03:07 AM	Everyone should also remember that you can have 6 of the same spell on a single scroll - helps to keep the weight down from those scroll cases. They're only half a pound but they add up. Why does eveybody forget Scribe Scroll? Wizards get that feat for free! Even in my games, even with repeated suggestions, spell-casting PCs seem to blow-off the Scribe Scroll feat. Make a few of those scrolls spells that you don't memorize regularly but are darned handy in special situations (like Knock). Make scrolls of those spells you love dearly and wish you could cast over and over again (like Orb,Lesser) And for even better bang-for-your-buck: Craft Wands! 50 Magic Missiles right there at the tip of your stick. :cool: Just recently a scroll of expeditious retreat saved my wizard's butt from a bearded devil in a canyon maze. Wizards/sorcerers should NEVER be without a scroll of this spell. Ditto for obscuring mist. I always carry backup damage scrolls when my party needs that extra offensive punch. My character has more than a dozen scrolls and he's only level 4 :) A great wand to have is ray of enfeeblement because it doesn't depend as much on caster level as other spells. Other good wand spells include prot from evil and enlarge person. I'm not a fan of magic missile wands because they can get costly for the higher level versions.
RavingDork 11-08-06, 09:47 AM	Everyone should also remember that you can have 6 of the same spell on a single scroll - helps to keep the weight down from those scroll cases. They're only half a pound but they add up. Core RAW has no such limit. My character regularly carries scrolls with 20+ spells upon them. :P Still, I've seen that limitation somewhere before in a semi-official source. Rules of the Game article? FAQ? Could you cite the source, please? :confused:
Romtos 11-08-06, 11:24 AM	As said, you can buy the scrolls. Of course, you could extract the pain of living beings to use them as XP, or use their soul into the item you create. :D Convince your DM in that case to multiply the 3 XP and the 10 XP with 10 to get them to 30 and 100 respectivily. :)
The Ultimate Dragongod 11-08-06, 11:40 AM	Now there's a good way to explain wizard casting. Think of a wizard spell as a gun. In the morning, the wizard spends an hour loading a large number of muskets. At any time after they are prepared, the wizard pulls one of his muskets out of his coat and pulls the trigger as a standard action (pulls out his material components, waves his hands and finishes the last bit of the spell).
Gorteck 11-08-06, 11:59 AM	My PCs don't do the crafting thing either. The Fighters are always upset with the wizards for slowing them down that extra hour a day to memorize spells, they can't get away with an extra 8 hours on top of that. I think that argument is strange though, seeing as every so often a Fighter wanders off without a Wizard...and dies a horrible, horrible death... ur fighters suck ... my fighters never ***** and complane or have thouse horrible horrible deaths ...
Kyuketsukiouji 11-08-06, 12:10 PM	At level 1, is there really any reason not to slap some Ray of Frosts on a scroll? The cost for each is what? 4gp and 1xp? (0.5x12.5x1x0.5)
Romtos 11-08-06, 12:12 PM	ur fighters suck ... my fighters never ***** and complane or have thouse horrible horrible deaths ... Or, you suck as a DM, of course. :) Not that that's nessecarily the case. Maybe the spellcasters in your game suck. Or there are no spellcasters in your game. :D
Dragonsblood 11-08-06, 12:54 PM	Core RAW has no such limit. My character regularly carries scrolls with 20+ spells upon them. :P Still, I've seen that limitation somewhere before in a semi-official source. Rules of the Game article? FAQ? Could you cite the source, please? :confused: I could've sworn it was in a core book, but I'm having trouble locating the source. I'll have to look into it when I have more time.
solbergb 11-08-06, 01:23 PM	the title is meant as a joke, but I do have a question about the combat use of wizards (mine, particularly) Wizards at low levels usually supplement their firepower with a crossbow or bow right? Actually my wizards (and sorcerers) rely heavily on 25gp scrolls and 10-50gp alchemical splash weapons to suppliment their limited spell slots/spells known. Also...your cantrips are in your top two tiers of spells . This means they are a significant part of your OFFENSIVE capability. Don't use them for utility until level 3+ (sorcs have a bit more freedom in this regard, just take one decent offensive cantrip, daze is one of the best, swap it out at L4). Crossbow is what you use when the fight is over except for mopping up. A wizard using his action to fire crossbow is a commoner, not an arcane caster. Much of the perceived weakness of arcane casters in low levels is by playing them like commoners with a crossbow, instead of actually using the good, cheap L1 spells and alchemicals. DM's should understand that restricting access to such items will severely impact the ability of low level spellcasters to contribute in the 1-5 level range unless the caster is also built to be a half decent melee character (cleric or bard with high strength, unusually high con/str sorcerer heading for dragon disciple or whatever)
Cifer 11-08-06, 01:36 PM	Crossbow is what you use when the fight is over except for mopping up. A wizard using his action to fire crossbow is a commoner, not an arcane caster. He's a commoner with a good will save!
KurenaiYami 11-08-06, 05:56 PM	ur fighters suck ... my fighters never ***** and complane or have thouse horrible horrible deaths ... Or the characters are just impatient and don't like having to sit around for an hour. But whatever lets you sleep at night, friend.
Rowan_Whispercloak 11-08-06, 06:13 PM	Everyone should also remember that you can have 6 of the same spell on a single scroll - helps to keep the weight down from those scroll cases. They're only half a pound but they add up. I believe he is using the random generation of scrolls as treasure as the limit. Major scrolls have 1d6 spells on them. However it should be mentioned that putting too many spells on a scroll could very well make it to unwieldy for use. A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper. An area about 8 1/2 inches wide and 11 inches long is sufficient to hold one spell. The sheet is reinforced at the top and bottom with strips of leather slightly longer than the sheet is wide. A scroll holding more than one spell has the same width (about 8 1/2 inches) but is an extra foot or so long for each extra spell.
konad 11-09-06, 03:19 PM	My players never used the Item creation feats because of this reason. They wondered how you could loose experience points gained adventuring by creating an item, after all, experience points represent experience gained. this aspect of item creation has its roots in previous additions of the game. in 2e when you created a magical item it was pretty much a huge elaborate quest to get the necessary items/spells needed. At the end of it you had to cast permanency on the item so that it would become a permanent magical item. problem with this is that in 2e permanency permanently drained a point of constitution as part of its casting cost. in 3e the magic system was somewhat revamped in the arena of permanency and magical items. but the cost of permanency still needed to be something significant because the results of the spell/items are so significant, thus experience points. the idea is that you are giving up part of your own life force to bind the magical properties so that they will not fade. its the same principal behind losing a familiar or casting a different powerful spell.
Iver Gearsham 11-10-06, 04:26 AM	Item creation may keep you back a level But you still have what you made if your smart it will be a Headband of Intellect and Pearls of Power. Item creation Doubles your wealth per level limits on equipment (half cost to make things) this makes you a much more formidable opponent. Try your hand at Alchemical creation for Tanglefoot bags if you make them will cost you 16 gp & six silver there great for knocking down flying monsters with Launch Item spell. I like using Bolas good for dropping a foe prone in front of your fighters this gives the foes a -4 to attacks and your friends +4 to hit and AO's on the foes if the stand up or try to move away. To do it to the fullest you will need Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Point Blank Shot, Precises Shot, Far Shot Combat Expertise, Improved Trip. Heroics the 2 lvl spell can help out with that. Nets are another foe stopper. Silent Image can hide your party in darkness or fog or shimmering light effects granting them 100% concealment that if your party makes their Will saves can see through without penalty and attack freely with Ranged or Melee Reach weapons.