Helping a Newb build a rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Helping a Newb build a rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kunioh
09-11-06, 01:15 AM A friend of mine has invited me to play in a campaign he's setting up. I'm still new to the table top D&D scene, only having played one serious game a few months ago. I'm filling in the role of a rogue and I'm having some trouble getting a build that will do what I want. I've already taken a look at the PHB, the DMG, the complete warrior, and complete adventures guide. I apprieciate any help any of you can give me. Thanks.

Starting level: 5
Ending level: Unkown. The DM says that it is possible for us to finish the campaign by the time we're about level 15 or drag it out until we're in epic levels.

Character concept: I'm trying to build a character that has the utility of a rogue (stealth, pick lock, and disable device class skills area must). Combat abilities are dex based. Ideally I would like to have a character that duel wields and when needed can throw one of his weapons at an approaching enemy or at an enemy that is open to an attack of opportunity.
GaffeR
09-11-06, 02:05 AM Just to nitpick, you generally can't make attacks of opportunity with ranged weapons, as they don't threaten any squares (thus removing the ability to make AoOs)

(Human?) Rogue 5+
1. Two-Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot
3. Weapon Finesse
6. Precise Shot/Rapid Shot
9. Improved TWF
12. Rapid Shot/Free
15. Greater TWF
18. Free

If you want precise shot, go for it. However, you might decide you don't want it. Might not be necessary (only throw for sneak attack while sniping, before they move, etc).

Skills:
Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Use Magic Device, Tumble, whatever else you want

Abilities:
Str: 10 is probably enough
Dex: As high as you can get it
Con: Don't skimp here, I'd put it 2nd highest after dex
Int: 3rd place after Con (surviving is more important than skills IMO)
Wis: 10+ (higher is better to combat the low will-save
Cha: Can be dumped, ranks in social skills can mitigate the penalty
Balseraph
09-11-06, 02:12 AM Firstly, something I noticed: One cannot make an attack of opportunity at range without a specific class feature (which I cannot recall off-hand).

Other than that, it sounds like a fairly 'normal' rogue build.

Rogue/5
Human for feats and skills? (Three feats as a 5th level human, with another just around the corner at 6th)
Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Combat Expertise?
Combat Reflexes?
Dodge?
Improved Initiative?
Two Weapon Defense?

Make sure that tumble is reasonably high and you should have little trouble getting into flanking positions to unload sneak attacks.

Assuming a DEX of 16: Attack is +4/+4 for a full attack or +6 for a single attack with your on-hand weapon, assuming both weapons are useable under
Weapon Finesse. (On-hand: Rapier. Off-hand: Short sword)?

Other than that, even if you have an INT of 10 for a human rogue, the skill points are phenomenal! You'd get 36 at first level, 9 each other level: 72 points to spread around at 5th level of rogue, even with only an INT of 10.
That would be 9 class skills at the maximum rank of 8 for 5th level. For each positive point in INT modifier, you could max out another class skill!
An INT of 14 allows for 11 skills at maximum, in that case, just as an example.

Oops, I have rambled on for a fair bit. Sorry about that. It also comes to my attention that most of what I've written would be better suited in character optimization or somewhere else, so I'll stop now :)

Good luck; have fun!
TheChilliGod
09-11-06, 02:14 AM Hmm... Okay.

Assuming you are going for the Rogue class (as opposed to Ninja's, Bard's, and what-have-you), then as a not-perfect character-maker, I would make a few key points:

Races: With humans, you get bonus feats and skills. With halflings, you get all the juicy size bonuses (since you're a rogue, the size penalty to damage won't matter much w/ sneak attack), and a nice dex bonus, plus Rogue as a favored class. With elves, you get the dex bonus without major hassles, as well as nice bonuses to those senses skills (search included)

Skills: Put as many skill points into those skills that you wanted. Add Tumble (bloody useful for getting into flanking position) & Search (to find those traps, y'know!) as well.

Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting (including all the other TWF feats), Quick draw (this'll help you get those extra daggers in your hand faster, so you are always fighting with two-weapons when you throw one), Weapon Finesse (you did say you're planning a Dex-based guy, right?). Maybe Point Blank Shot if you plan to throw your weapons often.
I don't particularly enjoy any of the rogue-type feats in the Complete Adventure/Warrior. I suppose some of those Sneak Attack-based feats might help you, but I won't recommend it.

Future Prestige Classes: There's a second reason I recommended the four feats from above; all four of them are prerequisites for the Whisperknife prestige class, in Races of the Wild. If you have that book, IMO, it's a prestige class worth looking into, but Halflings only.
Alternatively, the Master Thrower from Complete Warrior may be worth looking at as well.

If you're looking for more specialist advice than this (believe it or not, it may actually be possible!), or advice on how to make your rogue so amazing at what he does that it'll make your DM cry, preach to the CO boards down the road, they love stuff like what you're asking for.
gorfnad the shiznit
09-11-06, 02:46 AM Read through these links. They contain great guides written by board members on how to build rogue based characters.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=529135
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=132214
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=380454
Tytalus
09-11-06, 03:34 AM Just to nitpick, you generally can't make attacks of opportunity with ranged weapons, as they don't threaten any squares (thus removing the ability to make AoOs)

Works fine with daggers, though.
Salla
09-11-06, 03:42 AM Works fine with daggers, though.

Provided you're holding them and use them as a melee weapon for the AoO. You can't throw them for AoOs.
Kunioh
09-11-06, 09:06 AM Thanks for all your help guys. This has given me a good start. I think I'll head over to the character optimization to see about building rogue that will annoy my DM.
Harrowdroth
09-11-06, 12:15 PM I have played in the past:

Female half-drow

(feat) Drow eyes: 120 ft dark vision (only optainable at 1st lv)

rapier, light crossbow, asmany daggers as you can hide on your person.

I take bottles of alchemists fire, A couple small silvered razor wires.

For skills i recomend: Hide, move silently, lockpicking, dissable device, intimidate, tumble, climb.... some others I cant remember off the top of my head.

Though it does depend on the type of rogue you plan on playing.
Fangthane
09-11-06, 02:29 PM Primary stat for a rogue is intelligence, you cannot recover "lost" skill points. Rogue Every other stat skill can be raised by a magic item or by potion, and still have all benefits.
2nd Ed Paladin
09-11-06, 02:58 PM I agree, if you are building the type of rogue the OP wants. I would order the stats like so:

INT
DEX
CON
WIS (search, spot, listen)
CHR (all the social skills, esp bluff)
STR (if it is higher than 10, otherwise switch w CHR)

The feats would be something like what GaffeR suggested.

A TWF combat rogue I would build as:
DEX
CON
STR
INT
CHR (bluff)
WIS

I would try to add combat expertise and improved feint as feats in this build so you can sneak attack more often. A feint means the target loses its dex bonus against your next attack, enabling it to be a sneak attack. It can be better than a full attack that would not otherwise have a sneak attack depending on your level. Consider one or two levels of fighter to do this earlier.

If you plan on using TWF and ranged attacks consider using daggers as they can be thrown as well as used in melee. If hand axes are simple weapons (cant remember) consider them as they just look cool when dual wielding.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kunioh 09-11-06, 01:15 AM	A friend of mine has invited me to play in a campaign he's setting up. I'm still new to the table top D&D scene, only having played one serious game a few months ago. I'm filling in the role of a rogue and I'm having some trouble getting a build that will do what I want. I've already taken a look at the PHB, the DMG, the complete warrior, and complete adventures guide. I apprieciate any help any of you can give me. Thanks. Starting level: 5 Ending level: Unkown. The DM says that it is possible for us to finish the campaign by the time we're about level 15 or drag it out until we're in epic levels. Character concept: I'm trying to build a character that has the utility of a rogue (stealth, pick lock, and disable device class skills area must). Combat abilities are dex based. Ideally I would like to have a character that duel wields and when needed can throw one of his weapons at an approaching enemy or at an enemy that is open to an attack of opportunity.
GaffeR 09-11-06, 02:05 AM	Just to nitpick, you generally can't make attacks of opportunity with ranged weapons, as they don't threaten any squares (thus removing the ability to make AoOs) (Human?) Rogue 5+ 1. Two-Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot 3. Weapon Finesse 6. Precise Shot/Rapid Shot 9. Improved TWF 12. Rapid Shot/Free 15. Greater TWF 18. Free If you want precise shot, go for it. However, you might decide you don't want it. Might not be necessary (only throw for sneak attack while sniping, before they move, etc). Skills: Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Use Magic Device, Tumble, whatever else you want Abilities: Str: 10 is probably enough Dex: As high as you can get it Con: Don't skimp here, I'd put it 2nd highest after dex Int: 3rd place after Con (surviving is more important than skills IMO) Wis: 10+ (higher is better to combat the low will-save Cha: Can be dumped, ranks in social skills can mitigate the penalty
Balseraph 09-11-06, 02:12 AM	Firstly, something I noticed: One cannot make an attack of opportunity at range without a specific class feature (which I cannot recall off-hand). Other than that, it sounds like a fairly 'normal' rogue build. Rogue/5 Human for feats and skills? (Three feats as a 5th level human, with another just around the corner at 6th) Two Weapon Fighting Weapon Finesse Combat Expertise? Combat Reflexes? Dodge? Improved Initiative? Two Weapon Defense? Make sure that tumble is reasonably high and you should have little trouble getting into flanking positions to unload sneak attacks. Assuming a DEX of 16: Attack is +4/+4 for a full attack or +6 for a single attack with your on-hand weapon, assuming both weapons are useable under Weapon Finesse. (On-hand: Rapier. Off-hand: Short sword)? Other than that, even if you have an INT of 10 for a human rogue, the skill points are phenomenal! You'd get 36 at first level, 9 each other level: 72 points to spread around at 5th level of rogue, even with only an INT of 10. That would be 9 class skills at the maximum rank of 8 for 5th level. For each positive point in INT modifier, you could max out another class skill! An INT of 14 allows for 11 skills at maximum, in that case, just as an example. Oops, I have rambled on for a fair bit. Sorry about that. It also comes to my attention that most of what I've written would be better suited in character optimization or somewhere else, so I'll stop now :) Good luck; have fun!
TheChilliGod 09-11-06, 02:14 AM	Hmm... Okay. Assuming you are going for the Rogue class (as opposed to Ninja's, Bard's, and what-have-you), then as a not-perfect character-maker, I would make a few key points: Races: With humans, you get bonus feats and skills. With halflings, you get all the juicy size bonuses (since you're a rogue, the size penalty to damage won't matter much w/ sneak attack), and a nice dex bonus, plus Rogue as a favored class. With elves, you get the dex bonus without major hassles, as well as nice bonuses to those senses skills (search included) Skills: Put as many skill points into those skills that you wanted. Add Tumble (bloody useful for getting into flanking position) & Search (to find those traps, y'know!) as well. Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting (including all the other TWF feats), Quick draw (this'll help you get those extra daggers in your hand faster, so you are always fighting with two-weapons when you throw one), Weapon Finesse (you did say you're planning a Dex-based guy, right?). Maybe Point Blank Shot if you plan to throw your weapons often. I don't particularly enjoy any of the rogue-type feats in the Complete Adventure/Warrior. I suppose some of those Sneak Attack-based feats might help you, but I won't recommend it. Future Prestige Classes: There's a second reason I recommended the four feats from above; all four of them are prerequisites for the Whisperknife prestige class, in Races of the Wild. If you have that book, IMO, it's a prestige class worth looking into, but Halflings only. Alternatively, the Master Thrower from Complete Warrior may be worth looking at as well. If you're looking for more specialist advice than this (believe it or not, it may actually be possible!), or advice on how to make your rogue so amazing at what he does that it'll make your DM cry, preach to the CO boards down the road, they love stuff like what you're asking for.
gorfnad the shiznit 09-11-06, 02:46 AM	Read through these links. They contain great guides written by board members on how to build rogue based characters. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=529135 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=132214 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=380454
Tytalus 09-11-06, 03:34 AM	Just to nitpick, you generally can't make attacks of opportunity with ranged weapons, as they don't threaten any squares (thus removing the ability to make AoOs) Works fine with daggers, though.
Salla 09-11-06, 03:42 AM	Works fine with daggers, though. Provided you're holding them and use them as a melee weapon for the AoO. You can't throw them for AoOs.
Kunioh 09-11-06, 09:06 AM	Thanks for all your help guys. This has given me a good start. I think I'll head over to the character optimization to see about building rogue that will annoy my DM.
Harrowdroth 09-11-06, 12:15 PM	I have played in the past: Female half-drow (feat) Drow eyes: 120 ft dark vision (only optainable at 1st lv) rapier, light crossbow, asmany daggers as you can hide on your person. I take bottles of alchemists fire, A couple small silvered razor wires. For skills i recomend: Hide, move silently, lockpicking, dissable device, intimidate, tumble, climb.... some others I cant remember off the top of my head. Though it does depend on the type of rogue you plan on playing.
Fangthane 09-11-06, 02:29 PM	Primary stat for a rogue is intelligence, you cannot recover "lost" skill points. Rogue Every other stat skill can be raised by a magic item or by potion, and still have all benefits.
2nd Ed Paladin 09-11-06, 02:58 PM	I agree, if you are building the type of rogue the OP wants. I would order the stats like so: INT DEX CON WIS (search, spot, listen) CHR (all the social skills, esp bluff) STR (if it is higher than 10, otherwise switch w CHR) The feats would be something like what GaffeR suggested. A TWF combat rogue I would build as: DEX CON STR INT CHR (bluff) WIS I would try to add combat expertise and improved feint as feats in this build so you can sneak attack more often. A feint means the target loses its dex bonus against your next attack, enabling it to be a sneak attack. It can be better than a full attack that would not otherwise have a sneak attack depending on your level. Consider one or two levels of fighter to do this earlier. If you plan on using TWF and ranged attacks consider using daggers as they can be thrown as well as used in melee. If hand axes are simple weapons (cant remember) consider them as they just look cool when dual wielding.