Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sulaco 06-26-06, 11:20 AM	Okay, I am bout to do something I have not done in all my 23+ years of D&D: play a monk. Some PC background: The character was once part of the city giard but was expelled for drunkeness. He now spends all his time drinking and fighting (for fun and profit). He is actually a "brawler" rather than a monk-proper (no monestary), will be sticking with unarmed (fists and feet) and improv weapons (no special monk weapons). As you might have guessed, eventually he is heading towards Drunken Master when he hits 5th level. So never having never played a monk before I would appreciate some advice - with that PC background in mind - from monk fans and fanatics. Cheers.
NightBreeze 06-26-06, 12:18 PM	Finesse Weapon (fist). nuff' said. Otherwise, plaing monk is really fun (but don't play it too chaotic ;) ). You have a high Dex and many dex-related abilites, so enjoy your high movement speed and abilites...jump here, jump there, avoid attack, hit and so on. And you have good chances agains spellcasters.
MerlintheTuna 06-26-06, 01:09 PM	I'd actually recommend boosting strength before dex. A high wisdom will cover for mediocre dex, and strength will save you a feat, increase your damage, and make some of your combat options (tripping, grappling) more effective. Aside from that, it's pretty simple; use your increased movement and the Drunken Master's turn-during-a-charge ability to get around the enemies' big boys and wail into their fleshy little rogues and casters.
Yak of Darkness 06-26-06, 01:24 PM	Normally, I go for the Dex-based monk builds, but as a self-professed "brawler," I'd agree with Merlin about boosting Str over Dex. If you feel you're losing out on a benefit of a high Dex (say, a good initiative, which a monk can definitely use), you can use the feat you saved from Weapon Finesse on it (Improved Init). As a primarily unarmed Str hitter, Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) is probably not a bad idea. It's not great for a lot of monks, but especially considering the way it will synergize with Drunken Master, you'll likely be happy with it. Dodge-->Mobility-->Spring Attack is always a good route to take, thanks to your high speed. Mobility (combined with Tumble ranks) can get you around the beatsticks to kill the casters/squishies. And Spring Attack can help keep you from having to deal with full attacks when you have to engage something bigger and stronger than you. Foregoing Stunning Fist for Improved Grapple is tempting, with your brawling focus (not to mention how great it is to use against enemy backliners), but any monk can pick up Improved Grapple for free with any of their feats. If you skip out on Stunning Fist, you won't be able to get it until 12th level. SF is a nice trick to have up your sleeve when skirmishing against something you really don't want to hit you (no matter how high your Str, and how much of a brawler you are, you won't compare to . . . say, a barbarian or well-built fighter for pure beating or damage-soaking potential). And though it's implied in a lot of what I've said--never stand toe-to-toe with a real fighter, trading full attacks. Even with your flurry, you will die. You will die a lot. If you have to spend all your time in a fight adjacent to the enemy beatstick, grapple him, and hit him with unarmed strikes/beer steins in the grapple.
Surgo 06-26-06, 01:49 PM	Anything that increases your effective size is good. Improved Natural Attack and a fanged ring are the things I can think of off the top of my head. Goliaths and half-giants will both give you an effective size increase for unarmed attacks (and a +4 to trip!). Dexterity is far more important than wisdom. If you end up taking Improved Grapple, you will become worse and worse at grappling as the levels go up. You're not a druid.
Yak of Darkness 06-26-06, 02:42 PM	AGoliaths and half-giants will both give you an effective size increase for unarmed attacks (and a +4 to trip!).That's only half right. Powerful Build will give you the size bonus for opposed checks like grapple and trip, but it will not increase the unarmed damage you do. You can use bigger weapons, but you're still a medium creature, and thus do unarmed damage as a medium creature. If you end up taking Improved Grapple, you will become worse and worse at grappling as the levels go up. You're not a druid.Grappling isn't what you use on big monsters. You use grapples on fighters you want to hold and prevent from getting full attacks (it's a risky move, but the +4 from IG will negate the penalty from your lower BAB at all but the highest levels), or on wizardly types, to keep them from casting spells (or, if they're well built/prepared, at least to force them to blow a slot and a round on a stilled dimension door). All the while hitting with your powerful unarmed strikes (or, if drunken master has been taken, some random crap you found on the floor). The fighter will have to drop his greatsword of utterdoomsmack and snag a holdout dagger in order to fight back. And the wizard will just cry. ;)
Cifer 06-26-06, 02:58 PM	You might want to talk to your DM about the alignment restrictions and the flavour of the class - a permanently drunken guy doesn't sound that lawful to me. Just reflavour the monk class to make it more streetbrawler-like - except for the L20 apotheosis they have no class feature that can't be somehow paraphrased to fit a less meditative class.
moriarty13 06-26-06, 03:15 PM	[QUOTE=Surgo] ... Dexterity is far more important than wisdom. ...QUOTE] Wow. That's a different outlook on the monk:). Generally it's considered that Wis, Str, and Con are foremost in the Monk attribute list, but I'm no expert. Wis does AC (even while flat-footed) and stunning fist DC, Str to actually have competitive damage, and Con because your hit points will be a little low. I don't know how Improved Natural Attack will synergize with Drunken Master's improvised weapons. Might want to do some looking. There is a feat in Complete Warrior that lets you spend a stunning fist use to add 1d6 damage to a hit. Defensive Throw would be a really nifty trip tool for a drunken master, I think (if someone misses you in combat you get to trip them). Also in Complete Warrior. If you are going with Trip and Dodge+Mobility, check out Elusive Target (from Complete Warrior oddly enough). Ignore power attack damage, cause opponents flanking you to hit each other, and get free trip attempts while running around enemies. Fun!
Yak of Darkness 06-26-06, 03:24 PM	I don't know how Improved Natural Attack will synergize with Drunken Master's improvised weapons.Unlike most monk PrCs, Drunken Master doesn't increase your unarmed damage. It does, however, let you add your unarmed damage to an increasingly-powerful die when using improvised weapons, to make up for it. Taking INA along the way will boost your unarmed damage (which doesn't get anything from DM), thus boosting your ability to use improvised weapons along with it.
Sulaco 06-26-06, 03:45 PM	Thanks for the advice, all, and keep it coming. :D BTW, this is the inspiration for the character and, of course, the figure I will be using to represent him (Tavern Brawler from the forthcoming D&D Miniatures set): http://www.warcraft-guild.com/ddm/wdq_images/wdq_tavern_brawler.jpg
Surgo 06-26-06, 04:26 PM	That's only half right. Powerful Build will give you the size bonus for opposed checks like grapple and trip, but it will not increase the unarmed damage you do. Hrm, I'm wrong. Pigs can fly, I guess :-P
NobodyRemembersThis 06-27-06, 04:41 PM	Don't forget that there are a couple of other grapple feats that make a monk grappling the thing to do - especially over stunning fist. Clever Wrestling and Earth's Embrace out of the Complete Warrior are nice. They make ye a monster whence ye grapple. Quick Reconnoiter is a must have feat from Complete Adventurer - it stacks with Improved Initiative for a +6 to initiative. That, Brutal Throw (use strength for thrown weapon "to hit") and Throw Anything will allow ye to be the ultimate improvised weapon machine. They also allow ye to focus on wisdom and Strength instead of Dex and Wisdom.
Mercurius 06-27-06, 05:25 PM	Grappling isn't what you use on big monsters. You use grapples on fighters you want to hold and prevent from getting full attacks (it's a risky move, but the +4 from IG will negate the penalty from your lower BAB at all but the highest levels), or on wizardly types, to keep them from casting spells (or, if they're well built/prepared, at least to force them to blow a slot and a round on a stilled dimension door). All the while hitting with your powerful unarmed strikes (or, if drunken master has been taken, some random crap you found on the floor). The fighter will have to drop his greatsword of utterdoomsmack and snag a holdout dagger in order to fight back. And the wizard will just cry. ;) Grappling a fighter won't prevent him from getting a full attack. He'll just have to use most of those attacks in opposed grapple checks, likely not dealing as much damage. Furthermore, a caster with dimension door prepped/slotted can just cast it. No stilled required. It's only got a Verbal component, after all. It's the best way to get out of a grapple if you don't have Escape Artist. Honestly, I simply hate the grapple rules. They're complex, ponderous, and generally just turn to characters into a bunch of dice jockies who can't accomplish anything. But that's my experiences with grapple, where whoever's turn it is, they always fail the check and do nothing, and vice versa. A truly tricked out grappler might just change that position, but I'm not one to explore it. Another possible suggestion for your Monk is to check out the variant combat styles from Unearthed Arcana. It'll change the options for your bonus feats and give you a bonus to a skill as well as another ability. I'm not sure if there's anything in there that'll work well with your character concept, but it shouldn't hurt to look. A magic item you may want to look into picking up is the Monk's Belt. It'll increase your AC bonus and your unarmed damage, which will help once you get into the drunken master PrC. Sounds like a fun character.
Yak of Darkness 06-27-06, 05:59 PM	Grappling a fighter won't prevent him from getting a full attack. He'll just have to use most of those attacks in opposed grapple checks, likely not dealing as much damage.Okay, then, more accurately, you can prevent a fighter from making a full attack with a weapon. He can get all of his "attacks," but he has to spend at least one of them trying to get out . . . which is not automatic in the slightest. And every successive attempt at this after a failure takes place at a lower BAB, making it increasingly harder to escape if he misses on the first. In the end, if he gets any attacks at all, they'll be at a lower bonus. And if he tries to switch out to a light weapon, it takes a move action to draw the new one, thus also negating the full attack. Not to mention that backup weapons are rarely as powerful (either stat or enhancement wise) as the primary weapon. The fighter has to make due with a sub-optimal weapon, while the monk/DM is right in his element. And if the person in question is using a light weapon as his primary weapon, he's not the "enemy beatstick" the grapple example was meant for. :P Furthermore, a caster with dimension door prepped/slotted can just cast it. No stilled required. It's only got a Verbal component, after all. It's the best way to get out of a grapple if you don't have Escape Artist.You're right there. That's my bad call. Although a caster can't "just cast it," as being grappled forces a Concentration check before the spell works (DC 24 for dimension door). At high levels, this isn't much of an obstacle, but at mid levels, it certainly is. Plus, if the grappler monk goes on to pin the caster (as grappler monks are want to do), he can restrict the caster from speaking, killing the escape attempt. At worst, you've forced the caster to waste a round and fourth-level spell. If it works, though (or if you're fighting someone without dimension door) . . . that is one dead-ass mage. (This also synergizes very well with the Stunning Fist feat. Arcanists/psions have bad Fort saves, making them more likely to fail their save against a stunning attack. Start off your full attack with a Stunning Fist, then grapple them on the next attack. They can't escape when their turn comes around, even if they have dimension door prepped, and when you come up in initiative again, pin 'em.)
Leagle 06-29-06, 11:40 PM	expelled for drunkeness. "brawler" I would focus on evading attacks, improved grapple and go for defensive throw. Expertise might be worth it as well if you can afford it, or just tumble and fight defensively. You are a bit of a glass beating stick as a monk, but it pays to be in the thick of things where you can boost your ac and hopefully get protection from ranged attacks. Your speed increase at 3rd (and the fact you wear no armour) allows you to minimise your time stuck out in the open. I practice a martial art that is dominated by aging drunks with large beer-bellies, and they seem to do just fine. I am usually fairly fit and I puke before they do. In fact, I do beleive to advance you must become a semi-professional bar-fly. :(
Sulaco 06-30-06, 01:40 PM	Thanks for the feedback, guys. My DM and I are currently creating a Brawler class (modified from Monk). We are jetisoning the Slow Fall ability in favour of Low Blow (aka. Sneak Attack) and are replacing a bunch of the later-level super-powers and personal enlightenment stuff (quivering palm, tongue of sun and moon, etc.) with DR (sames as the barbarian).
UndeadMouse 06-30-06, 08:00 PM	Power Attack --> Cleave --> Great Cleave high str One of my players did that once. He would frequently hit 10-15 creatures at a time. He also used power attack smartly, varing between damage and accureacy. He also at the end of the campaign got a belt that increased his damage by the amount of damage he got dealt.
FeceMan 07-01-06, 07:52 PM	To everyone saying WIS isn't important: with every drink a drunken master takes, his INT and WIS drop two points. If Sulaco isn't careful, he could end up catatonic...especially if he fights something that damages those stats. Also, there's potential for abuse when converting a drink to a potion (RAW-ify it).