'Hide in Plain Sight'- confusing rules from ToM: hiding in 'bright light' and darkvis [Archive] - Wizards Community

'Hide in Plain Sight'- confusing rules from ToM: hiding in 'bright light' and darkvis [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nicholas the Paladin
07-25-07, 02:59 AM Hi Guys,

HiPS has been discussed many time and i thought that i understood it correctly ( it just let's you hide when someone is watching), but now somethings come up that i find very confusing.

It's some parts from the Tome of magic.... :

- at page 157 it says:
" in an area of bright light, all creatures can see clearly. A creature can't use Hide in an area of bright light unless it is invisible, has cover or has the hide in plain sight ability."

that surprised me..... HiPS seems soo much more like an 'super' Supernatural-ability

- and further at that page:
"characters who have darkvision can see lit areas normally as wel as dark areas within 60 ft. A character can't use Hide within 60 ft of a character who has darkvision unless it is invisible, has cover or has the hide in plain sight ability."

- But further at page page 161, HiPS is explained:

" HiPS (Ex): use the hide skill even while being observed (exept in daylight, in the area of a'daylight' spell or similar effect)

This seems to contradict each other.

Can someone please explain?
Grumman
07-25-07, 04:29 AM There are other ways to produce "bright light" than by daylight or daylight-level magic. Look at page 165 of the PHb for some examples.

Also, not all HiPS sources require one to remain out of daylight - Rangers being an example from the PHb.
Nicholas the Paladin
07-25-07, 06:29 AM There are other ways to produce "bright light" than by daylight or daylight-level magic. Look at page 165 of the PHb for some examples. This makes it just more confusing. Apparently Daylight isn't all that special. It is *just* another source of light: just one that gives a wider (60ft in stead of 20 ft) spread of 'bright light'.

But anyway,
HiPS, according to page 157 of the ToM, can be used even in bright light: such as that of torches (20ft), Daylight (60ft).....even normal daylight??

I never thought that would be possible. It's almost like 'invisibility' with a Hide skill-check....

perhaps you can hide in someone else's shadow?

Also, not all HiPS sources require one to remain out of daylight - Rangers being an example from the PHb.

Nice that you point that out. Apparently there are diffent kind of circumstances in wich to use HiPS. But I think this requires you to have some kind of 'cover'.... even though it is not mentioned in the PHB ranger-ability.

I'm talking about the HiPS-kind that is used by 'shadowdancer' (DMG) or the creatures with the 'shadowy creature'-template (ToM).
Zealot_Reborn
07-25-07, 08:08 AM a dm in a campaign i'm in and i came to an accord concerning HiPS.

As long as I was within 20 feet of a shadow besides my own, as said in the rules, i could use hide in plain sight. this included small shadows cast by grass, etc. However, in exchange for this ability, anything that could see invisibility, like the spell, could see me. Keeps the game balanced, for sure, considering my character is somewhat weak after having been put through stat-reducing torture at the hands of a cult.
Nicholas the Paladin
07-25-07, 09:24 AM a dm in a campaign i'm in and i came to an accord concerning HiPS.

As long as I was within 20 feet of a shadow besides my own, as said in the rules, i could use hide in plain sight. this included small shadows cast by grass, etc. However, in exchange for this ability, anything that could see invisibility, like the spell, could see me. Keeps the game balanced, for sure, considering my character is somewhat weak after having been put through stat-reducing torture at the hands of a cult.

so you and your DM agree to the first part of the ToM-rules: hiding in bright light is possible.
(The rule that invis-seeing creatures can see you, is okay. Still after this ruling, it's a powerfull ability.)

Do you use the same ruling for hiding versus darkvision?
Grumman
07-25-07, 12:24 PM A dark creature can use HiPS as long as it's not in direct daylight or within the area of a Daylight spell. Weaker spells or light sources, even if they produce a radius of bright light, do not stop the dark creature from using HiPS.

A Shadowdancer can use HiPS as long as she is within 10 feet of a shadow other than her own.

A ranger can use HiPS as long as he is in natural terrain.

Of these, only the Shadowdancer explicitly states that it negates the need for some sort of cover or concealment. But according to the section you originally posted from ToM, they have applied this ability to all types of HiPS.
Ics
07-25-07, 04:43 PM By itself, HiPS allows you to Hide while being observed, with a few extras or caveats depending on the source, so by default you still need cover or concealment. If you're a ranger, however, you've already got camouflage, so this isn't necessary, and a shadowdancer can also hide if she is within 10 feet of a shadow beside her own (even without another source of cover or concealment). Finally, we have the Dark template, which grants HiPS to a creature that is not in an area of "natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect"; most of the time this means they're already got concealment from darkness (or could move into the shadowy area of whatever light effect is active and thus gain concealment), so they could Hide.

As far as darkvision goes, if the hider in question was depending on concealment from nonmagical darkness to Hide, then no, they could not Hide from a creature with darkvision because they would not have concealment from that creature (but they could still Hide from creatures without darkvision). Magical darkness (most of the time) or cover would still do the trick.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nicholas the Paladin 07-25-07, 02:59 AM	Hi Guys, HiPS has been discussed many time and i thought that i understood it correctly ( it just let's you hide when someone is watching), but now somethings come up that i find very confusing. It's some parts from the Tome of magic.... : - at page 157 it says: " in an area of bright light, all creatures can see clearly. A creature can't use Hide in an area of bright light unless it is invisible, has cover or has the hide in plain sight ability." that surprised me..... HiPS seems soo much more like an 'super' Supernatural-ability - and further at that page: "characters who have darkvision can see lit areas normally as wel as dark areas within 60 ft. A character can't use Hide within 60 ft of a character who has darkvision unless it is invisible, has cover or has the hide in plain sight ability." - But further at page page 161, HiPS is explained: " HiPS (Ex): use the hide skill even while being observed (exept in daylight, in the area of a'daylight' spell or similar effect) This seems to contradict each other. Can someone please explain?
Grumman 07-25-07, 04:29 AM	There are other ways to produce "bright light" than by daylight or daylight-level magic. Look at page 165 of the PHb for some examples. Also, not all HiPS sources require one to remain out of daylight - Rangers being an example from the PHb.
Nicholas the Paladin 07-25-07, 06:29 AM	There are other ways to produce "bright light" than by daylight or daylight-level magic. Look at page 165 of the PHb for some examples. This makes it just more confusing. Apparently Daylight isn't all that special. It is just another source of light: just one that gives a wider (60ft in stead of 20 ft) spread of 'bright light'. But anyway, HiPS, according to page 157 of the ToM, can be used even in bright light: such as that of torches (20ft), Daylight (60ft).....even normal daylight?? I never thought that would be possible. It's almost like 'invisibility' with a Hide skill-check.... perhaps you can hide in someone else's shadow? Also, not all HiPS sources require one to remain out of daylight - Rangers being an example from the PHb. Nice that you point that out. Apparently there are diffent kind of circumstances in wich to use HiPS. But I think this requires you to have some kind of 'cover'.... even though it is not mentioned in the PHB ranger-ability. I'm talking about the HiPS-kind that is used by 'shadowdancer' (DMG) or the creatures with the 'shadowy creature'-template (ToM).
Zealot_Reborn 07-25-07, 08:08 AM	a dm in a campaign i'm in and i came to an accord concerning HiPS. As long as I was within 20 feet of a shadow besides my own, as said in the rules, i could use hide in plain sight. this included small shadows cast by grass, etc. However, in exchange for this ability, anything that could see invisibility, like the spell, could see me. Keeps the game balanced, for sure, considering my character is somewhat weak after having been put through stat-reducing torture at the hands of a cult.
Nicholas the Paladin 07-25-07, 09:24 AM	a dm in a campaign i'm in and i came to an accord concerning HiPS. As long as I was within 20 feet of a shadow besides my own, as said in the rules, i could use hide in plain sight. this included small shadows cast by grass, etc. However, in exchange for this ability, anything that could see invisibility, like the spell, could see me. Keeps the game balanced, for sure, considering my character is somewhat weak after having been put through stat-reducing torture at the hands of a cult. so you and your DM agree to the first part of the ToM-rules: hiding in bright light is possible. (The rule that invis-seeing creatures can see you, is okay. Still after this ruling, it's a powerfull ability.) Do you use the same ruling for hiding versus darkvision?
Grumman 07-25-07, 12:24 PM	A dark creature can use HiPS as long as it's not in direct daylight or within the area of a Daylight spell. Weaker spells or light sources, even if they produce a radius of bright light, do not stop the dark creature from using HiPS. A Shadowdancer can use HiPS as long as she is within 10 feet of a shadow other than her own. A ranger can use HiPS as long as he is in natural terrain. Of these, only the Shadowdancer explicitly states that it negates the need for some sort of cover or concealment. But according to the section you originally posted from ToM, they have applied this ability to all types of HiPS.
Ics 07-25-07, 04:43 PM	By itself, HiPS allows you to Hide while being observed, with a few extras or caveats depending on the source, so by default you still need cover or concealment. If you're a ranger, however, you've already got camouflage, so this isn't necessary, and a shadowdancer can also hide if she is within 10 feet of a shadow beside her own (even without another source of cover or concealment). Finally, we have the Dark template, which grants HiPS to a creature that is not in an area of "natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect"; most of the time this means they're already got concealment from darkness (or could move into the shadowy area of whatever light effect is active and thus gain concealment), so they could Hide. As far as darkvision goes, if the hider in question was depending on concealment from nonmagical darkness to Hide, then no, they could not Hide from a creature with darkvision because they would not have concealment from that creature (but they could still Hide from creatures without darkvision). Magical darkness (most of the time) or cover would still do the trick.