Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XArchangelX 12-29-04, 02:57 PM	I was looking at the Shadow Dancer prestige class, and saw that it had Hide in Plain Sight as a 1st level class ability, and the description sounds really interesting. However, I realized I have no idea how it would work out in the game itself. Therefore, I come to you with a few questions about it. Is Hide in Plain Sight really useful? Do you have any examples of using it in your game? How do you or your DM rule its use in game?
pha3drus 01-01-05, 10:53 AM	Hide in plain sight is a nice ability that when within 10ft of any type of shadow or concealment (going from memory i don't have a book handy here at work) that allows you to hide completely in the open. You can hide in any shadow other than your own, so suddenly the rogue getting lost in a crowd really can happen. I've played a rogue that had it and gave my DM numerous headaches for it so he created a rule stating that hidden characters can be seen using the "see invisible" spell. Some may agree with that and others may not since hide in plain sight is technically a extraordinary ability and not magical. In my game I let the players use it and its just a normal hide check for them. Nothing special about it other than they don't have to be in darkness or have cover around them to be hidden. You'll probably get a lot of opinions over this as each person has their own style of play where this ability is concerned.
Artexerxees 01-01-05, 07:15 PM	I've only seen Hide in Plain Sight (hips) used in games. I have not studied it myself but there is a few things I can mention. It is very powerful. In my group of friends we decided that You can shoot once then disappear, or you can take your full complement of attacks then take a five foot step then disapear. Some tables will not let you do that. Some tables will only allow you to shoot then disapear, not attack with melee weapons and disapear, so ask your DM about that. What you might agree on is that you take a standard action to attack then move up to half your movement as a movement action. Even if it is a five foot step it is still taken as your move action cause a move action is what is required. In my group we decided you can take a five foot step and draw out your weapon at the same time so it works the same with the shadowdancer. hence, that is why we agreed on the full complement of attacks and then a five foot step as your move action so you can disappear. hips is a supernatural ability from the shadowdancer class, and an extraordinary ability from the Ranger class. The Ranger class if I remember right can only be used in natural settings. The difference between the two is that true seeing (TS) removes magical darkness. That means your shadowdancer can be seen with TS since all magical darkness is removed and his ability is magical in nature. It is a kind of limited invisibility. Darkvision does not remove shadows so it does not see your shadowdancer. Your shadowdancer can be seen by an opposed spot or listen check. So, you will want to keep those high. One last note, some people say that the Shadowdancers ability to hips is from the plane of shadow. It does not actually say that in the books but it make for interesting roleplaying. I hope my Icon is still there, I havn't used this stuff since they remodled the message boards. I still have to find out where they put the character optimization.
dedric 01-01-05, 10:41 PM	When I DM my group, which is most of the time anymore, this is the way I handle HiPS. I am sure not everyone does things this way but oh well... Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow. So HiPS allows the character to use the hide skill while being observed, with the limitation that a shadow be within 10 feet and that shadow not be created by the Shadowdancer. That is how I handle it. I look at the Hide skill and if it can be done with the Hide skill, like sniping or hiding while moving, then I allow the Shadowdancer to do it with HiPS. The reason I do it this way is simple...it is the way the ability is written. That means that the only way to detect the character using HiPS is by using methods that specifically will allow you to locate someone who is hiding. That means that True Sight does not work, nor does See Invisibility, etc. Also, I allow the Shadowdancer to use HiPS even after a full attack. [Quote]Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.[/B] That is what sort of action the Hide skill takes to use. Notice it says usually none. That is because if you are in an area which offers concealment or cover you do not even have to move to hide. So as long as a shadow is within 10 feet of the character, they would be able to hide even after a full attack and even if they had no movement available. If you do it as part of a move action then I apply the penalties for moving faster than one-half normal speed. Basically I just use the hide skill and treat them as if they had concealment or cover due to the shadow being within 10 feet. I realize that some people will think that makes HiPS too powerful of an ability. Still, that is the way I handle the ability in my campaigns. So if you do it by taking the literal reading of the ability then yes it is fairly powerful. Even if you are limited to using it only while moving or even if it is overcome by True Seeing then I would think it is still fairly useful. It all comes down to how the DM in your campaign interpretes the ability. Besides the DM also gets to decide exactly where shadows are located and if any are within 10 feet. Hope that helps. Dedric
Superpreneurs 01-03-05, 04:38 AM	And be aware that a Shadowdancer/Rogue or Shadowdancer/Rogue/Assassin can be VERY painful as she lays the sneak attack every round (or every other round.) Make sure you and your DM are VERY clear on how this ability might screw your campaign. If it gets too bad you can always correct it later, saying that the Shadowdancer is somehow losing the power of her abilities - maybe she is losing connection with the plane of Shadow (if you follow that logic). -Dan
Asciiman 01-03-05, 05:24 AM	I love the Shadow Dancer, easily my favourite prestige class. But the more and more I use them, the more and more I believe that the Shadow Dancer was intended to be used almost exclusively by the DM for his NPC villians. I find NOTHING sets the mood to agrivate the players and then motivate them an instant later then a Shadow Dancer, who appears, attacks once, with sneak attack from rogue levels, then HiPS or Shadow Jumps away. My group immediatly goes onto the edge of their seats as soon as my Shadow Dancer NPC is announced. I warn all DM's however, don't over do this. Keep it around as a dangerous option, one that makes the group pause, cause using sound tactics, you can create NPC that will be more then a simple bother, and the group will cheer when they defeat them.
Lincoln Hills 01-04-05, 06:13 PM	Hide in plain sight is a class ability far, far more useful than invisibility and even a little nicer than improved invisibility. Here's why. - Generally non-magical, hide in plain sight cannot be sensed with see invisibility or even the otherwise superb true seeing. There is only one spell - and not a very popular spell either - which specifically states that it reveals 'hiding creatures' in addition to invisible ones: that's glitterdust, although a faerie fire applied before the character can conceal himself will work very well. Even the ever-popular, inexpensive, invisibility-busting 'cloud of flour' is trumped by this power. (3.5 users will want to read the spell descriptions in question: I believe they function identically to the older system, but it is better to be certain.) - Creatures with blindsight or tremorsense are not fooled by hide in plain sight, but such creatures are not everyday encounters: scent can be almost as useful, and is a great deal more common. - Under the rules listed under 3.0's Song & Silence supplement, a character can "snipe" - break from hiding, make an attack and then attempt to hide once again - but suffers a -20 to his Hide attempt, since attacking necessarily attracts attention and cannot be done slowly. This is a stiff penalty: however, most of the folks high enough in level to have hide in plain sight are likely to have at least an outside chance of pulling it off. - Because so few classes have Spot as a class skill, hide in plain sight is the ideal class ability for infiltrators and assassins. At times a monk or barbarian will suspect your presence, but only a really top-notch spotter (often a ranger, occasionally a rogue) is realistically likely to notice you. Again - consider that by 3rd level, most parties have invisibility, and by 7th level they've access to improved invisibility. A 3.0 rogue who sets out to become a shadowdancer will usually pick up this power about the same time that the party wizard gets improved invisibility - that gives you an idea of how useful the power is. (A 3.5 ranger gets the ability at a much higher level, but by then the casters are often using etherealness, which is superior even to hide in plain sight.)
ShadowRanger 01-04-05, 07:44 PM	the sniping rule is also in the 3.5 PHB under the hide section, a useful ability, until someone casts daylight and your shadows are gone
DaveReaves 01-04-05, 08:25 PM	I find HIPS to be horibly overpowered, but that could just be becuase of people in my group saying things like "I can hind from the warior becuase there gaps in his armor that have shadows" or "If I carry a potted plant, I can hide behind it". Thats just my group, I know its not always like that. And when I DM I change the rules to require a "substancial amount" of shadow or nature to hide behind (the shadow of a building or row of hedges for example). The trick is to not let people explot the ability.
AramilWindwalker 01-04-05, 09:21 PM	Concerning attacking while concealed/hiding. I am correct in thinking the attacked loses dex bonus to AC (if any) and sneak attack damage is allowed, does it entail any other unknown to me bonus? I'm relatively new to D&D and am considering making a rogue bent on being a shadowdancer, I just want to know just how much of an advantage it would have.
Junpei 01-05-05, 05:40 AM	Nice point, AramilWindwalker: so, is a creature attacked by anyone who uses HiPS really considered flat-footed? And what if the attacker exploits a Spring Attack? Could he lower the penalty to his Hide check made to conceal himself again after the attack, as stated by Lincoln Hills? Also, since HiPS is considered part of a movement action, is it possible to take advantage of this ability during the 5-foot step that may follow a full attack? I'm starting to reconsider this shadowdancer's feature in combat other than using it only while scouting...
XArchangelX 01-05-05, 03:11 PM	Nice point, AramilWindwalker: so, is a creature attacked by anyone who uses HiPS really considered flat-footed? And what if the attacker exploits a Spring Attack? Could he lower the penalty to his Hide check made to conceal himself again after the attack, as stated by Lincoln Hills? Anyone successfully using HiPS would be hidden, and I imagine would definitely get all requisite bonuses that come with being hidden right before attacking. As for the use of Spring Attack, that would depend on the situation and the DM. How far are you moving to the target? Will you have enough move distance left after the attack to get within 10ft of shadows again? Also, since you wouldn't be sniping, the -20 wouldn't apply anyway. Well, actually, that would depend completely on the DM. Some might go with the line of reasoning that you just shot someone, thus attracting the undivided attention of your target and causing the -20. Others might go with the; you moved out of hiding, so your target gets his Dex bonus to AC, and you lose any other bonuses of sniping, but you can go ahead and make a hide check again, line of reasoning. Also, since HiPS is considered part of a movement action, is it possible to take advantage of this ability during the 5-foot step that may follow a full attack? Depends. According the 3.5PHB, "Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action." This would depend almost entirely on the DM. Technically, a 5-foot step is a movement action, but the DM might decide you are just too close to bother trying it, or might impose the -20 for just having attacked.
Thoronmir 01-05-05, 04:28 PM	So HiPS allows the character to use the hide skill while being observedThis is our interpretation as well. HiPS provides no benefits other than increasing the situations in which a PC can use his Hide skill. Accordingly, any maneuever that includes Hide can be done with HiPS in the proper environment. Here’s the analogy I used to explain our interpretation to a player: Suppose I have the ability “Swing Golf Club.” However, under the RAW, I’m only allowed to make a “Swing Golf Club” Check under certain conditions … namely, at the driving range. Now, I take a level in a PrC that grants the ability “Country Club Membership.” One benefit of the “CCM” ability is that it allows me to use my “SGC” skill in environments other than the driving range. I can now use “SGC” at the golf course. My “Swing Golf Club” skill hasn’t changed, except the circumstances under which I get to use the skill. I don’t swing my club any better. Any action I might have taken while swinging my club remains a viable action in the new context of the “CCM” ability (e.g., smoking cigar, drinking cocktail, flirting with beer-truck chick). The moral of the story is that HiPS does not create a “new” Hide skill … it only lets you use your ordinary Hide skill at times when lesser mortals can’t.
PhaedrusXY 02-24-05, 02:37 AM	Edit: Started a new thread in the Combat and Equipment section.