Hiding behind a tower shield? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hiding behind a tower shield? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
green_yawgmoth
04-23-05, 02:47 PM Okay, here's a plan I've been thinking about for combat, and I want to know if this will work the way I think. Our party is:
[me]Half fiend awakened squirrel wizard (I wrote a damn good backstory to justify it :P)
Dwarf fighter/dwarven defender
Half elf druid/vermin lord
Our DD is maxed way out and has a tower shield. Now, the problem is he can only take a 5 foot step, so we have to bring the things to him. What I was thinking is that I could hide behind the shield, cast a spell, and hide again (I think I can handle the -20 penalty). This would (in theory) make a BBEG think the DD is actually a warmage or something, thus making the BBEG charge the DD, and you get the idea. My question is: how would this go down exactly? Would I face any chance of being hit while behind the shield? What if I flew away after the first casting; would he need to make a spot check to notice me, or would I just have to suffer the AoO? Anything else I haven't thought of?

Edit: Please specify if your answer is 3.0 or 3.5. We play a combination of both, but we tend to use 3.0 rules more.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Draco Strang
04-23-05, 03:18 PM [me]Half fiend awakened squirrel wizard (I wrote a damn good backstory to justify it :P)
I have to read this backstory.
Fargren
04-23-05, 03:28 PM So do I.
DD stands for Dwarven Defender?
I would aplya spot check, DC 17, to make the AoO. If he fails, he'd think the dwarf casted the spell
green_yawgmoth
04-23-05, 03:46 PM Well, I think it's pretty good. (http://www.3edb.com/viewCharacter.asp?cid=9770) Fargren: How'd you come up with 17?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Draco Strang
04-23-05, 04:01 PM Well yawg, congratulations. That's something that I have never seen before.

Mind if I use him as the BBEG in a one-off adventure I wanna do?
Fargren
04-23-05, 05:20 PM Don't know. 15 seemed to less, and 20 too much. And every manuals tells you to round down....
If tyou don't like it, change it, but 17 seems good to me.
twad
04-23-05, 06:39 PM if i understand, then a bluff check to fool the BBEG to thinking the DD is a warmage.
Fargren
04-23-05, 06:59 PM On a second thoguht, it should be spot vs. hide. You get a bonifier from the shield, or at lest deny the penalty from doing it into a fight, and of course,m being a squirrel, you have a huge bonifier on hide.
Nom
04-23-05, 07:02 PM Firstly, I assume you are at most "Diminutive", and thus can fit in the same square.

Let's assume both you and the DD are behind the shield's cover, and you cast the spell. So "someone" casts the spell in that square. It's probably a moderately difficult Bluff check to convince the opponent that the tiny, high pitched voice is actually the dwarf.

The problem about casting behind cover is that you can only target what you can see. That's you, the dwarf, and other stuff on your side (not your opponent's side) of the shield. You could also cast a melee touch spell and hold the charge.

What you can't do is cast any spell that affects the opponent, even rays. You can't target what you cant see, you can't hold the charge on rays, and thus you can't cast spells at him. Nor can you "snipe" with spells - the sniping rules specifically apply to a "single ranged attack". If you could figure a way to hold the charge (or equivalent) on a ray spell, then you could snipe, but I wouldn't deny Dex to AC for somone darting out from behind a tower shield.
JabberWocky
04-23-05, 07:09 PM In my opinion this wouldn't fly. You'd have to make a damn good Bluff check to make the BBEG think the dwarf hurled the spell. If I recall, it's a move action to duck behind a tower shield or emerge from it, so you could, in theory, pop off a spell and then duck or, if you're already hidden, pop up to throw the spell (but be unable to duck down behind it).

In the new rules you have to give up all attacks to get cover from a tower shield, otherwise it's just a +4 shield bonus. However, depending on your size category, the dwarf himself could give you cover to hide behind. Still, that doesn't help with the move-equivalent action you'd need to spend to Hide and re-hide. Casting a spell is much more complicated than flicking off an arrow and ducking down again, and as such I wouldn't allow the "sniping" rule to apply in this scenario.

In short, there's no way for you to do this unless the BBEG is the epitome of stupidity in your gaming world. Even an orc would have a hard time believing "squeak squeaker squeak squeakin BOOM!" came from that hardass little man in the full plate.
allenchan
04-23-05, 08:25 PM I really dont think this is logical at all.
A far simpler solution is a tenser's floating disk. Cast it, have the DD hop on, and tow him around the battlefield.
Athryn
04-23-05, 09:28 PM Well, I think it's pretty good. (http://www.3edb.com/viewCharacter.asp?cid=9770)

Wow, that is one badass squirrel.

And it's always nice to see a PC with Craft:Basketweaving. Oh, AND Profession: Weaver. I guess everybody needs a hobby...
wordserpent
04-23-05, 11:46 PM I might just give the squirrel an AC bonus benefit from the shield. When you think about it that's what the squirrel is doing, using the shield for defence. Since it is casting spells it would incur Attacks of Opportunity but it should definitely some defense bonus from hiding behind the equivalent of a wooden wall.
green_yawgmoth
04-24-05, 02:58 AM Well yawg, congratulations. That's something that I have never seen before.

Mind if I use him as the BBEG in a one-off adventure I wanna do?
Oh please please do so, and let me know how it turns out. I love it when people use my characters in their own campaigns. :D

Nom: I'm tiny, which has the same "get into the same square" stuff as dim/fine.
Jabberwocky and Nom: I have the Mobile Spellcasting feat, so I can cast and move as a standard action with a successful concentration check. So I could peek up, then cast and go down. And you're assuming that a battlefield is completely quiet, from what I gather; do you really think that you could even hear a squirrel chittering in the heat of battle with 2 other combatants (4 if you count vermin servant/animal companion)? And where are the specific rules for sniping? I can't seem to find them in my books (3.0, if you haven't read my sig and the last line of my OP). I could definitely see calling in a bluff check in with the hide check as per "creating a diversion" to ensure I wasn't seen casting, though.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Fargren
04-24-05, 10:05 AM That character is so damn great!!!!!!!!!
I bealive you would hve to succed in a hide vs. spot, and the BBEG would have to fail a CD 20 listen check. Maybe you would have to add a bluf check, since he could probably notice that the DD didn't speak.
green_yawgmoth
04-24-05, 12:53 PM That character is so damn great!!!!!!!!!
I bealive you would hve to succed in a hide vs. spot, and the BBEG would have to fail a CD 20 listen check. Maybe you would have to add a bluf check, since he could probably notice that the DD didn't speak.
Well, the "DD wasn't speaking" thing can be easily remedied: Have him speak. Just teach him a few magic words that together won't do anything, but sound like a spell. Considering that they will sound like verbal components, and a spell will come out, anyone without a decent spellcraft score will be easily bluffed (at least with my bluff score).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
mcnoo
04-24-05, 09:50 PM Damn those drow squirrel hunting raids! Bane of all small furry woodland creatrures.
green_yawgmoth
04-24-05, 10:20 PM Damn those drow squirrel hunting raids! Bane of all small furry woodland creatrures.
Yeah, I needed a way to get him into drow hands, and I figured bored evil creatures would probably take potshots at a lone woodland animal. *Shrug*

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Iver Gearsham
04-24-05, 10:35 PM Hey there how bout a wee little hole to see throught for the wee little Rodent of Doom?
It shouldn't hurt the T shield and you get line of sight and effect.

Definetly teach the DD the final words to your spells as he has none to cast it won't hurt and speaking is a free action. :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
green_yawgmoth 04-23-05, 02:47 PM	Okay, here's a plan I've been thinking about for combat, and I want to know if this will work the way I think. Our party is: [me]Half fiend awakened squirrel wizard (I wrote a damn good backstory to justify it :P) Dwarf fighter/dwarven defender Half elf druid/vermin lord Our DD is maxed way out and has a tower shield. Now, the problem is he can only take a 5 foot step, so we have to bring the things to him. What I was thinking is that I could hide behind the shield, cast a spell, and hide again (I think I can handle the -20 penalty). This would (in theory) make a BBEG think the DD is actually a warmage or something, thus making the BBEG charge the DD, and you get the idea. My question is: how would this go down exactly? Would I face any chance of being hit while behind the shield? What if I flew away after the first casting; would he need to make a spot check to notice me, or would I just have to suffer the AoO? Anything else I haven't thought of? Edit: Please specify if your answer is 3.0 or 3.5. We play a combination of both, but we tend to use 3.0 rules more. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Draco Strang 04-23-05, 03:18 PM	[me]Half fiend awakened squirrel wizard (I wrote a damn good backstory to justify it :P) I have to read this backstory.
Fargren 04-23-05, 03:28 PM	So do I. DD stands for Dwarven Defender? I would aplya spot check, DC 17, to make the AoO. If he fails, he'd think the dwarf casted the spell
green_yawgmoth 04-23-05, 03:46 PM	Well, I think it's pretty good. (http://www.3edb.com/viewCharacter.asp?cid=9770) Fargren: How'd you come up with 17? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Draco Strang 04-23-05, 04:01 PM	Well yawg, congratulations. That's something that I have never seen before. Mind if I use him as the BBEG in a one-off adventure I wanna do?
Fargren 04-23-05, 05:20 PM	Don't know. 15 seemed to less, and 20 too much. And every manuals tells you to round down.... If tyou don't like it, change it, but 17 seems good to me.
twad 04-23-05, 06:39 PM	if i understand, then a bluff check to fool the BBEG to thinking the DD is a warmage.
Fargren 04-23-05, 06:59 PM	On a second thoguht, it should be spot vs. hide. You get a bonifier from the shield, or at lest deny the penalty from doing it into a fight, and of course,m being a squirrel, you have a huge bonifier on hide.
Nom 04-23-05, 07:02 PM	Firstly, I assume you are at most "Diminutive", and thus can fit in the same square. Let's assume both you and the DD are behind the shield's cover, and you cast the spell. So "someone" casts the spell in that square. It's probably a moderately difficult Bluff check to convince the opponent that the tiny, high pitched voice is actually the dwarf. The problem about casting behind cover is that you can only target what you can see. That's you, the dwarf, and other stuff on your side (not your opponent's side) of the shield. You could also cast a melee touch spell and hold the charge. What you can't do is cast any spell that affects the opponent, even rays. You can't target what you cant see, you can't hold the charge on rays, and thus you can't cast spells at him. Nor can you "snipe" with spells - the sniping rules specifically apply to a "single ranged attack". If you could figure a way to hold the charge (or equivalent) on a ray spell, then you could snipe, but I wouldn't deny Dex to AC for somone darting out from behind a tower shield.
JabberWocky 04-23-05, 07:09 PM	In my opinion this wouldn't fly. You'd have to make a damn good Bluff check to make the BBEG think the dwarf hurled the spell. If I recall, it's a move action to duck behind a tower shield or emerge from it, so you could, in theory, pop off a spell and then duck or, if you're already hidden, pop up to throw the spell (but be unable to duck down behind it). In the new rules you have to give up all attacks to get cover from a tower shield, otherwise it's just a +4 shield bonus. However, depending on your size category, the dwarf himself could give you cover to hide behind. Still, that doesn't help with the move-equivalent action you'd need to spend to Hide and re-hide. Casting a spell is much more complicated than flicking off an arrow and ducking down again, and as such I wouldn't allow the "sniping" rule to apply in this scenario. In short, there's no way for you to do this unless the BBEG is the epitome of stupidity in your gaming world. Even an orc would have a hard time believing "squeak squeaker squeak squeakin BOOM!" came from that hardass little man in the full plate.
allenchan 04-23-05, 08:25 PM	I really dont think this is logical at all. A far simpler solution is a tenser's floating disk. Cast it, have the DD hop on, and tow him around the battlefield.
Athryn 04-23-05, 09:28 PM	Well, I think it's pretty good. (http://www.3edb.com/viewCharacter.asp?cid=9770) Wow, that is one badass squirrel. And it's always nice to see a PC with Craft:Basketweaving. Oh, AND Profession: Weaver. I guess everybody needs a hobby...
wordserpent 04-23-05, 11:46 PM	I might just give the squirrel an AC bonus benefit from the shield. When you think about it that's what the squirrel is doing, using the shield for defence. Since it is casting spells it would incur Attacks of Opportunity but it should definitely some defense bonus from hiding behind the equivalent of a wooden wall.
green_yawgmoth 04-24-05, 02:58 AM	Well yawg, congratulations. That's something that I have never seen before. Mind if I use him as the BBEG in a one-off adventure I wanna do? Oh please please do so, and let me know how it turns out. I love it when people use my characters in their own campaigns. :D Nom: I'm tiny, which has the same "get into the same square" stuff as dim/fine. Jabberwocky and Nom: I have the Mobile Spellcasting feat, so I can cast and move as a standard action with a successful concentration check. So I could peek up, then cast and go down. And you're assuming that a battlefield is completely quiet, from what I gather; do you really think that you could even hear a squirrel chittering in the heat of battle with 2 other combatants (4 if you count vermin servant/animal companion)? And where are the specific rules for sniping? I can't seem to find them in my books (3.0, if you haven't read my sig and the last line of my OP). I could definitely see calling in a bluff check in with the hide check as per "creating a diversion" to ensure I wasn't seen casting, though. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Fargren 04-24-05, 10:05 AM	That character is so damn great!!!!!!!!! I bealive you would hve to succed in a hide vs. spot, and the BBEG would have to fail a CD 20 listen check. Maybe you would have to add a bluf check, since he could probably notice that the DD didn't speak.
green_yawgmoth 04-24-05, 12:53 PM	That character is so damn great!!!!!!!!! I bealive you would hve to succed in a hide vs. spot, and the BBEG would have to fail a CD 20 listen check. Maybe you would have to add a bluf check, since he could probably notice that the DD didn't speak. Well, the "DD wasn't speaking" thing can be easily remedied: Have him speak. Just teach him a few magic words that together won't do anything, but sound like a spell. Considering that they will sound like verbal components, and a spell will come out, anyone without a decent spellcraft score will be easily bluffed (at least with my bluff score). http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
mcnoo 04-24-05, 09:50 PM	Damn those drow squirrel hunting raids! Bane of all small furry woodland creatrures.
green_yawgmoth 04-24-05, 10:20 PM	Damn those drow squirrel hunting raids! Bane of all small furry woodland creatrures. Yeah, I needed a way to get him into drow hands, and I figured bored evil creatures would probably take potshots at a lone woodland animal. Shrug http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Iver Gearsham 04-24-05, 10:35 PM	Hey there how bout a wee little hole to see throught for the wee little Rodent of Doom? It shouldn't hurt the T shield and you get line of sight and effect. Definetly teach the DD the final words to your spells as he has none to cast it won't hurt and speaking is a free action. :D