High level spellcasters compared to high level fighters [Archive] - Wizards Community

High level spellcasters compared to high level fighters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
StormKnight
02-16-04, 01:29 PM IMHO, one of the big problems with first edition D&D was that spellcasters were really the only viable option at high levels; fighters and rogues just couldn't compare.
I assumed that this would be fixed in 3.0/3.5, and that other classes would still be useful and comparable at high levels.
Now I am seeing some posts that seem to indicate this isn't true; that a high level caster is still more powerful.

Comments/opinions?
muppet_man
02-16-04, 01:48 PM Well it all depends on the situation realy.

I am the usual DM in our group but one of the players has decided to run a one off level 30 adventure.

2 of the players in the group are both LA +4 races

Im a shade Wiz 11/Shadow Adapt 10/ Archmage 5
the other is a half brass dragon fighter 26

the fighter has well over 400 HP and is able to deal between 100-160 points of damage a round

my wizard cant compare to those HP or that Damage out put.

so by face value the fighter is the more powerfull of the 2. BUT my character has developed epic spells, his favorite being a spell using the compell seed which acts like a realy powerfull domination with a duration of 20 hours and a will save DC of around 50.

if you are just using levels 1-20 then in general i have found spellcasters to be the more powerful but once epic levels are used the the epic save bonuses and high saves that monsters have it means that spells of levels 1-9 can be too easy to beat the save DC's.

if my wizard and the half dragon went head to head then it would be a matter of who wins initiative.
Aucturos
02-16-04, 03:39 PM It's a close race for first. I'm partially biased to spellcasters, so of course I'd boast that mine (see sig) would be able to beat the living aether out of anybody...

While I can take out entire towns with spells, my friend's epic fighter can take out entire armies of thousands if they were marching in a packed configuration, what with all his feats and his weapon masteries, etc... He's also a helluva lot harder to hit than I am. If something gets close, I may have a 50% miss chance on me all the time, but if they do hit, there's a good chance if they try again I'm dead. His AC, meanwhile, is somewhere in the high 80's at least. Combined with his bulk HP of around 360 something, he can laugh at that Ancient dragon's breathe only dealing 90 something damage.

But then again, I can fire off 200dmg spells from over a mile away, so if it was a contest between him and I... It would greatly depend on the distance between us when we started, and who won first initiative.

I can't take him down in one spell (unless he rolls extremely poorly), and while he can't take me entirely down in one hit, the next one would finish me off if I didn't teleport away.

I truly believe it's a toss up...
StormKnight
02-16-04, 04:23 PM As a side note, by "high level" I was thinking like 15 or so, not over 20 as people here are taking it :D
Guess my perspective isn't the same as some people.
was_fired
02-16-04, 04:54 PM Casters get more and more powerful as you go up to level 20. After that fighters start regaining their ground with epic feats. Now epic spells can shift it back to the caster but those things all need to be approved by the DM and unless he allows crazy buff spells to be researched it should end up fairly fair.
Cog
02-16-04, 05:57 PM As has been said already, it all depends upon the situation. The group I'm in is 19th/20th level - the wizard has been saving the party's butt for most of the adventure, with the "save or die" spells and the summon distraction spells. Last night we stumbled upon a 20 foot tall tower in the middle of a cavern with 2 Glabrezu on it. My Knight of the Chalice immediately asks for a hand up - the wizard then casts dimension door on him.

So I get surprise round on the two demons. Two hits later they are both dead. I then notice the 6 Vrocks and the Balor. 2 rounds later they are all dead too. While I'm working on McDonalds latest burger, the rest of the party (ranger, wizard and cleric) wander round the base of the tower and run into a Balor. It decapitated the wizard with its Vorpal Greatsword.

Had we waited for the demons to come to us, I'd have been useless and the wizard would have killed them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StormKnight 02-16-04, 01:29 PM	IMHO, one of the big problems with first edition D&D was that spellcasters were really the only viable option at high levels; fighters and rogues just couldn't compare. I assumed that this would be fixed in 3.0/3.5, and that other classes would still be useful and comparable at high levels. Now I am seeing some posts that seem to indicate this isn't true; that a high level caster is still more powerful. Comments/opinions?
muppet_man 02-16-04, 01:48 PM	Well it all depends on the situation realy. I am the usual DM in our group but one of the players has decided to run a one off level 30 adventure. 2 of the players in the group are both LA +4 races Im a shade Wiz 11/Shadow Adapt 10/ Archmage 5 the other is a half brass dragon fighter 26 the fighter has well over 400 HP and is able to deal between 100-160 points of damage a round my wizard cant compare to those HP or that Damage out put. so by face value the fighter is the more powerfull of the 2. BUT my character has developed epic spells, his favorite being a spell using the compell seed which acts like a realy powerfull domination with a duration of 20 hours and a will save DC of around 50. if you are just using levels 1-20 then in general i have found spellcasters to be the more powerful but once epic levels are used the the epic save bonuses and high saves that monsters have it means that spells of levels 1-9 can be too easy to beat the save DC's. if my wizard and the half dragon went head to head then it would be a matter of who wins initiative.
Aucturos 02-16-04, 03:39 PM	It's a close race for first. I'm partially biased to spellcasters, so of course I'd boast that mine (see sig) would be able to beat the living aether out of anybody... While I can take out entire towns with spells, my friend's epic fighter can take out entire armies of thousands if they were marching in a packed configuration, what with all his feats and his weapon masteries, etc... He's also a helluva lot harder to hit than I am. If something gets close, I may have a 50% miss chance on me all the time, but if they do hit, there's a good chance if they try again I'm dead. His AC, meanwhile, is somewhere in the high 80's at least. Combined with his bulk HP of around 360 something, he can laugh at that Ancient dragon's breathe only dealing 90 something damage. But then again, I can fire off 200dmg spells from over a mile away, so if it was a contest between him and I... It would greatly depend on the distance between us when we started, and who won first initiative. I can't take him down in one spell (unless he rolls extremely poorly), and while he can't take me entirely down in one hit, the next one would finish me off if I didn't teleport away. I truly believe it's a toss up...
StormKnight 02-16-04, 04:23 PM	As a side note, by "high level" I was thinking like 15 or so, not over 20 as people here are taking it :D Guess my perspective isn't the same as some people.
was_fired 02-16-04, 04:54 PM	Casters get more and more powerful as you go up to level 20. After that fighters start regaining their ground with epic feats. Now epic spells can shift it back to the caster but those things all need to be approved by the DM and unless he allows crazy buff spells to be researched it should end up fairly fair.
Cog 02-16-04, 05:57 PM	As has been said already, it all depends upon the situation. The group I'm in is 19th/20th level - the wizard has been saving the party's butt for most of the adventure, with the "save or die" spells and the summon distraction spells. Last night we stumbled upon a 20 foot tall tower in the middle of a cavern with 2 Glabrezu on it. My Knight of the Chalice immediately asks for a hand up - the wizard then casts dimension door on him. So I get surprise round on the two demons. Two hits later they are both dead. I then notice the 6 Vrocks and the Balor. 2 rounds later they are all dead too. While I'm working on McDonalds latest burger, the rest of the party (ranger, wizard and cleric) wander round the base of the tower and run into a Balor. It decapitated the wizard with its Vorpal Greatsword. Had we waited for the demons to come to us, I'd have been useless and the wizard would have killed them.