Higher Standards [Archive] - Wizards Community

Higher Standards [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sir_Darien
02-04-04, 04:12 PM Greetings,

First of all this is my first post in this forum and I would like say hello to everone here. That being said, to business.

I've recently re-joined a playgroup that I was a member of several months ago. In my absence the group had switched characters and campaigns so naturally, upon my return I had to introduce a new character to the game. I came up with a ranger named Davon and asked my DM what the best way to have him introduced to the game would be. Brad (the DM) told me that the party was searching for artifacts stolen in caravan raids from the church of Lathander (That is the NG Faerunian god of the sun and healing, for those of you unfamiliar with the Realms). He said that my character could have been captured and held prisoner by the same people who stole the artifacts. A little cliche, but still it should be an effective way of getting me into the group.

Anyways, the group assaulted a party of enemies who were holding me, and long story short I was freed. However the group now had a prisoner of their own. The jailkeeper/torturer that was keeping me imprisoned surrendered, rather than fight the party to the death. My character, being sort of upset that this man was still alive, struck the bound captive. This didn't sit well with the cleric of Lathander and a small melee ensued, the end result of which was my being knocked unconsious. Anyway my character was obviosly unhappy with what happened, but being of good alignment, I later apologized to the group and said I would assist them as long as the captive was brought to justice, which seemed to be their motive. Also as a gesture of goodwill I found one of the party members errant cohorts and brought him back to the group.

Now here is where the problems started. Even with my apology and rescue the cleric is still unwilling to travel with me. He says that by striking an unarmed captive, I commited an evil act, and thus he believes me to be evil. The groups Paladin who appears to be willing to give me another chance used his detect evil ability on me and comfirmed that I was not, but this is apparently not enough to allay the clerics suspicions. He agreed to assist us until our current mission is complete, but then he will depart.

We are now nearing the end of completing our mission, and the clerics attitude remains the same. I have tried reasoning with him both in and out of character, and the DM has also spoken to him about setting an impossibly high standard for the other members of the party to live up to. The reasoning goes along the lines that, though the cleric may be holding himself to such a high standard, he should show more tolerance toward those who do not practice the same virtues, especially if the charcter in question has admitted his mistake and has sworn not to act in such a way again as my character has.

Now here's what I'd like to know from you: What should I do?

Here are my options as I see them...

Let him leave: He is, in my eyes, being unreasonable. I could just let him go. However from an out-of-character perspective, I feel bad about forcing a player who has put a few months of work into a character to make a new one just so my character who has only been around for three sessions to stay.

I can leave: I was kind of looking foward to this char, but I guess it wouldn't be too hard to make a new one.

If anyone has a third option I'm all ears.

Thanks for your time and in advance for your advice.
Capn Charlie
02-04-04, 04:24 PM Well, you could always talk to the player or dm and engineer some kind of additional excuse to keep the group together, like having the jailer give up the location of a den of evil to the Lathanderites and they set the party to go and ferret them out, with perhaps the high priest setting the cleric to keep an eye on you.

This would buy more time for your ranger to gain favor in the cleric's eyes.

Or you could tell the cleric about the things the torturer diid to you, perhaps with showing him the scars, and see if he can blame you.
Stormweaver
02-04-04, 04:29 PM This is the classic scenaro of a player refusing to do his part for the benefitof the game.

One of the virtues of goodness is forgiveness. If the cleric can't forgive, he is not that good himself. So he does not have that much moral high ground over your ranger. If its the player that don't want the cleric to forgive, then I say scr3w him and keep playing your ranger.

Beside your character didn't do something that bad, unless you tried to kill the jaillers instead of just simply stiking him out of spite (in wich case I'd get those 4d6 rolling my friend). A Paladin might get a stern warning or even loose his tittle over something like this. But your are no Paladin. Striking a bound person is definitivelly a chaotic act however.

Your DM could help the situation by placing the cleric in a situation where only your Ranger can save him. That could foster some "in-game trust".

my 2 GP
Sir_Darien
02-04-04, 04:35 PM @ Charlie

Already tried second part, and the DM's already doing what he can to keep the group together.

@ Stormweaver

You are correct in that striking a bound prisoner is against my alignment most likely on both axis. My character had just gotten out of being imprisoned and torutred by this guy for months, he was angry and thus he did something he would not normally do, and he later apologized for it. This is where we have the friction, my character is a NG human not a NG saint.
Conaill
02-04-04, 04:51 PM So... does this cleric leave you *any* options to stay with the party? E.g. accepting a Geas spell or somesuch? Or is it a straight-out "it's him or me"ultimatum?

In the latter case, I don't see any reason for your PC to leave the party. It's the other PC that's being inflexible, so he can take the consequences of his own actions...
Mikes_Notions
02-04-04, 04:52 PM What you did was not only acceptable, but pretty realistic. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone loses their cool, everyone commits actions oposing their alighnement once in awhile. Your alignment has beened played perflectly, expecially since you apologized. Well done.

The cleric is being a bigot in character and difficult out of character. He may not like you, he may think you lack self-control, but there is no way he could accuse you of being evil, especially when his friend the PALADIN trusts you. Maybe the cleric should cast his own detect evil spell...or does he doubt his god, aswell?

You, or another player, or the DM should work this out, out of game. Maybe the player is just trying to play a believable character, but it sounds like hes not doing a very good job of bringing this group together.

See if you can wait it out, or see if someone will talk to the player. If it seems like there no hope, and no ones having fun because of it, than you might want to just try a new character. If a similar problem occurs, than the player is being a jerk and needs to be talked to.
Luminous Crayon
02-04-04, 04:53 PM Your clerical friend is being far too hardheaded.

1.) One action does not an alignment make. Even if striking the jailer was an Evil act (which I dispute), that doesn't make you an evil character, and it doesn't mean such a cleric can't travel with you, or that you ought to show up on a paladin's hitlist. You reacted out of emotion, but that doesn't make you evil, it makes you human. (Or elven, or dwarven, or gnomish, or whatever.)

2.) There are more than 9 different personalities. Alignment approximates your general behavior and personality, but it should never be expected to determine all of it. What do you call a character with mostly Good tendencies but a few minor Evil personality traits, like spite or greed? Real personalities aren't so cut-and-dry.

3.) Either alignment is an abstract concept, or it isn't. Games differ with respect to their treatment of alignment, so I'll address both sides. If you treat alignment abstractly, as I do, then your cleric's statement of "you committed an Evil action, you must be Evil" is as much a metagame concept as "you have four hit dice." Bad cleric. If you treat alignment concretely, as most groups seem to, then all the cleric has to do is scan you with a Detect Alignment spell lto confirm or deny his suspicion. He's a freaking cleric, after all; it's a first-level spell.
White Mage
02-06-04, 05:07 AM In my opinion it is one of the most important tasks of all players to create and roleplay their characters in such a way it is at least possible to keep the group together. If the player of the cleric indeed gives you no chance at all to resolve the issue, he is not playing his part.
I do wonder: does it really matter to the player if he would lose his PC? Maybe he's got a backup character he'd like to try.
White Mage
02-06-04, 05:07 AM Double post
Joe Khol
02-06-04, 08:19 AM I don't really see the problem. You have played your character perfectly well. Your Ranger did something bad but apologised for it and the Paladin confirmed it was a one off and not evidence of an evil nature. Essentially, the Cleric player is playing his character perfectly well too. The Cleric simply doesn't trust the Ranger. He's being very stubborn but that isn't automatically wrong.

At the end of the day it is up to him what his character chooses to do and you certainly shouldn't feel you are forcing him to do anything. If he wants to stick to his guns the character will have to leave. He always has the option to compromise if he doesn't want to loose the character from the game though. Hopefully he will and you can roleplay steadily gaining his trust over time.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sir_Darien 02-04-04, 04:12 PM	Greetings, First of all this is my first post in this forum and I would like say hello to everone here. That being said, to business. I've recently re-joined a playgroup that I was a member of several months ago. In my absence the group had switched characters and campaigns so naturally, upon my return I had to introduce a new character to the game. I came up with a ranger named Davon and asked my DM what the best way to have him introduced to the game would be. Brad (the DM) told me that the party was searching for artifacts stolen in caravan raids from the church of Lathander (That is the NG Faerunian god of the sun and healing, for those of you unfamiliar with the Realms). He said that my character could have been captured and held prisoner by the same people who stole the artifacts. A little cliche, but still it should be an effective way of getting me into the group. Anyways, the group assaulted a party of enemies who were holding me, and long story short I was freed. However the group now had a prisoner of their own. The jailkeeper/torturer that was keeping me imprisoned surrendered, rather than fight the party to the death. My character, being sort of upset that this man was still alive, struck the bound captive. This didn't sit well with the cleric of Lathander and a small melee ensued, the end result of which was my being knocked unconsious. Anyway my character was obviosly unhappy with what happened, but being of good alignment, I later apologized to the group and said I would assist them as long as the captive was brought to justice, which seemed to be their motive. Also as a gesture of goodwill I found one of the party members errant cohorts and brought him back to the group. Now here is where the problems started. Even with my apology and rescue the cleric is still unwilling to travel with me. He says that by striking an unarmed captive, I commited an evil act, and thus he believes me to be evil. The groups Paladin who appears to be willing to give me another chance used his detect evil ability on me and comfirmed that I was not, but this is apparently not enough to allay the clerics suspicions. He agreed to assist us until our current mission is complete, but then he will depart. We are now nearing the end of completing our mission, and the clerics attitude remains the same. I have tried reasoning with him both in and out of character, and the DM has also spoken to him about setting an impossibly high standard for the other members of the party to live up to. The reasoning goes along the lines that, though the cleric may be holding himself to such a high standard, he should show more tolerance toward those who do not practice the same virtues, especially if the charcter in question has admitted his mistake and has sworn not to act in such a way again as my character has. Now here's what I'd like to know from you: What should I do? Here are my options as I see them... Let him leave: He is, in my eyes, being unreasonable. I could just let him go. However from an out-of-character perspective, I feel bad about forcing a player who has put a few months of work into a character to make a new one just so my character who has only been around for three sessions to stay. I can leave: I was kind of looking foward to this char, but I guess it wouldn't be too hard to make a new one. If anyone has a third option I'm all ears. Thanks for your time and in advance for your advice.
Capn Charlie 02-04-04, 04:24 PM	Well, you could always talk to the player or dm and engineer some kind of additional excuse to keep the group together, like having the jailer give up the location of a den of evil to the Lathanderites and they set the party to go and ferret them out, with perhaps the high priest setting the cleric to keep an eye on you. This would buy more time for your ranger to gain favor in the cleric's eyes. Or you could tell the cleric about the things the torturer diid to you, perhaps with showing him the scars, and see if he can blame you.
Stormweaver 02-04-04, 04:29 PM	This is the classic scenaro of a player refusing to do his part for the benefitof the game. One of the virtues of goodness is forgiveness. If the cleric can't forgive, he is not that good himself. So he does not have that much moral high ground over your ranger. If its the player that don't want the cleric to forgive, then I say scr3w him and keep playing your ranger. Beside your character didn't do something that bad, unless you tried to kill the jaillers instead of just simply stiking him out of spite (in wich case I'd get those 4d6 rolling my friend). A Paladin might get a stern warning or even loose his tittle over something like this. But your are no Paladin. Striking a bound person is definitivelly a chaotic act however. Your DM could help the situation by placing the cleric in a situation where only your Ranger can save him. That could foster some "in-game trust". my 2 GP
Sir_Darien 02-04-04, 04:35 PM	@ Charlie Already tried second part, and the DM's already doing what he can to keep the group together. @ Stormweaver You are correct in that striking a bound prisoner is against my alignment most likely on both axis. My character had just gotten out of being imprisoned and torutred by this guy for months, he was angry and thus he did something he would not normally do, and he later apologized for it. This is where we have the friction, my character is a NG human not a NG saint.
Conaill 02-04-04, 04:51 PM	So... does this cleric leave you any options to stay with the party? E.g. accepting a Geas spell or somesuch? Or is it a straight-out "it's him or me"ultimatum? In the latter case, I don't see any reason for your PC to leave the party. It's the other PC that's being inflexible, so he can take the consequences of his own actions...
Mikes_Notions 02-04-04, 04:52 PM	What you did was not only acceptable, but pretty realistic. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone loses their cool, everyone commits actions oposing their alighnement once in awhile. Your alignment has beened played perflectly, expecially since you apologized. Well done. The cleric is being a bigot in character and difficult out of character. He may not like you, he may think you lack self-control, but there is no way he could accuse you of being evil, especially when his friend the PALADIN trusts you. Maybe the cleric should cast his own detect evil spell...or does he doubt his god, aswell? You, or another player, or the DM should work this out, out of game. Maybe the player is just trying to play a believable character, but it sounds like hes not doing a very good job of bringing this group together. See if you can wait it out, or see if someone will talk to the player. If it seems like there no hope, and no ones having fun because of it, than you might want to just try a new character. If a similar problem occurs, than the player is being a jerk and needs to be talked to.
Luminous Crayon 02-04-04, 04:53 PM	Your clerical friend is being far too hardheaded. 1.) One action does not an alignment make. Even if striking the jailer was an Evil act (which I dispute), that doesn't make you an evil character, and it doesn't mean such a cleric can't travel with you, or that you ought to show up on a paladin's hitlist. You reacted out of emotion, but that doesn't make you evil, it makes you human. (Or elven, or dwarven, or gnomish, or whatever.) 2.) There are more than 9 different personalities. Alignment approximates your general behavior and personality, but it should never be expected to determine all of it. What do you call a character with mostly Good tendencies but a few minor Evil personality traits, like spite or greed? Real personalities aren't so cut-and-dry. 3.) Either alignment is an abstract concept, or it isn't. Games differ with respect to their treatment of alignment, so I'll address both sides. If you treat alignment abstractly, as I do, then your cleric's statement of "you committed an Evil action, you must be Evil" is as much a metagame concept as "you have four hit dice." Bad cleric. If you treat alignment concretely, as most groups seem to, then all the cleric has to do is scan you with a Detect Alignment spell lto confirm or deny his suspicion. He's a freaking cleric, after all; it's a first-level spell.
White Mage 02-06-04, 05:07 AM	In my opinion it is one of the most important tasks of all players to create and roleplay their characters in such a way it is at least possible to keep the group together. If the player of the cleric indeed gives you no chance at all to resolve the issue, he is not playing his part. I do wonder: does it really matter to the player if he would lose his PC? Maybe he's got a backup character he'd like to try.
White Mage 02-06-04, 05:07 AM	Double post
Joe Khol 02-06-04, 08:19 AM	I don't really see the problem. You have played your character perfectly well. Your Ranger did something bad but apologised for it and the Paladin confirmed it was a one off and not evidence of an evil nature. Essentially, the Cleric player is playing his character perfectly well too. The Cleric simply doesn't trust the Ranger. He's being very stubborn but that isn't automatically wrong. At the end of the day it is up to him what his character chooses to do and you certainly shouldn't feel you are forcing him to do anything. If he wants to stick to his guns the character will have to leave. He always has the option to compromise if he doesn't want to loose the character from the game though. Hopefully he will and you can roleplay steadily gaining his trust over time.