Hmm. What level 9 spell to take? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hmm. What level 9 spell to take? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Crimson Hellkite
02-24-04, 08:22 PM My sorcerer just hit 20th level, and I need to take a third 9th level spell. I already have the obvious ones, Mordenkainen's disjunction and timestop. Now I'm thinking about Bigby's crushing hand; it absolutely destroys mages (mages almost always lose grapples; cannot cast spells while grappled). My planned strategy for mage slaying is to murder their buffs with Mordenkainen's disjunction, keep them from casting any spells with Bigby's crushing hand, and follow up with a few delayed fireball blasts or twin spelled cone of colds.

However, there is also Wail of the Banshee. Since it's fortitude based, and mages have low fortitude save bonuses, it might kill them instantly anyway. And then there is Power Word Kill, which has no save at all. I could cast a quicked fireball to put them below 100 hit points, then cast Power Word Kill. What's your opinion? :nonono:
Heron_Marked_Blade
02-24-04, 08:29 PM I'd go for Wail of the Banshee, personally. The multiple targets is nice. The downside is that melee combatants may resist the effect.
Crimson Hellkite
02-24-04, 08:34 PM Spellcaster versus melee shouldn't be too tough. I have an armor of speed, which means I'm constantly hasted and get two standard actions a round. That also means that I can cast one quickened spell and two normal spells per round; in which case, I can just shoot a quickened fireball and follow up with two delayed fireball blasts. 50~d6 damage in one round goes a long way.
flyingmoose
02-24-04, 09:32 PM Um... wish?

Just a hunch. Plus I'd never take disjunction because you're destroying the loot, and possibly your ability to cast spells if there's an artifact hiding about (which at 20th level is quite likely).
LordHell
02-24-04, 09:41 PM I'm a big fan of a Maximised Chain Lightening or two, for those times you really want to dish out the damage.
Crimson Hellkite
02-24-04, 09:50 PM Wish is a terrible spell for sorcerers. I might as well get a scroll, since it's not like I'm going to cast it more than once a day. I like Mordenkainen's disjunction since it's great for stripping buffs, and it can double off as a greater dispel magic.
The Simbul
02-24-04, 11:06 PM Shapechange

Who needs Bigby's Crushing Hand when you can transform into a Dragon and grapple the Mage with your claws (and use yoru breath weapon on them). Furthermore, Shapechange grants you the Supernatural and Extraoridinary powers of your new form, which in many cases allows you to make up for your fewer known spells. Shapechanging into a Beholder for instance, allows you to have access to several spells through their Eye Rays (Su), and on top of that, the Save DC for such abilities would arguebaly be 10 + 1/2 your HD/CL + your Charisma bonus. Shapechanging into a Golem grants you Magic Immunity, Shapechanging into a Archon lets you cast Greater Teleport at will, Shapechanging into a Nymph grants you a Deflection Bonus to AC and a Bonus to all saves equal to your CHA mod, etc etc etc.

Shapechange, Gate, and Wish are by far three of the most versatile 9th level spells, I would suggest you choose one of them. Wail of the Banshee, while powerful, has only a specified use, and many characters NPCs, and Monsters can be rendered immune to Death effects through templates, types/subtypes, or Supernatural and Extraordinary abilities (which a MDJ cannot touch).
LordHell
02-24-04, 11:21 PM Originally posted by The Simbul
Shapechange

Who needs Bigby's Crushing Hand when you can transform into a Dragon and grapple the Mage with your claws (and use yoru breath weapon on them). Furthermore, Shapechange grants you the Supernatural and Extraoridinary powers of your new form, which in many cases allows you to make up for your fewer known spells. Shapechanging into a Beholder for instance, allows you to have access to several spells through their Eye Rays (Su), and on top of that, the Save DC for such abilities would arguebaly be 10 + 1/2 your HD/CL + your Charisma bonus. Shapechanging into a Golem grants you Magic Immunity, Shapechanging into a Archon lets you cast Greater Teleport at will, Shapechanging into a Nymph grants you a Deflection Bonus to AC and a Bonus to all saves equal to your CHA mod, etc etc etc.

Shapechange, Gate, and Wish are by far three of the most versatile 9th level spells, I would suggest you choose one of them. Wail of the Banshee, while powerful, has only a specified use, and many characters NPCs, and Monsters can be rendered immune to Death effects through templates, types/subtypes, or Supernatural and Extraordinary abilities (which a MDJ cannot touch).

I'd agree with this, except I feel that timestop is probably the premier 9th level spell.
wdarkk
02-24-04, 11:48 PM Not in 3.5; it's now VERY difficult to use, although with Sphere of Ultimate Destruction (Unapproachable East) or Delayed Blast Fireball it might be useful (although timing the DBFs would be tricky, since TS duration is secretly rolled). It's also terrific for a summoner - you come out of Time Stop with a brand-new army and a readied action to counter his MDJ.
Timewilltell
02-25-04, 12:10 AM Ah, Time Stop in 3.0. Now there was an abusable spell. There was nothing quite like casting timestop and have meteor swarm explosion after meteor swarm explosion.

Now, its still a good spell. I'd just spend that time making myself totally unhitable (Empowered mirror image, displacement, protection from spells, repulsion, etc.)

I suggest you take power word kill if your goal is to kill mages. Of course, that depends on how you calculate HP. If your DM maximizes HP every level, its not as good of a choice. If he doesn't, then you can probably start the battle by killing the mage, or, that is unless he has spell turning.
wdarkk
02-25-04, 12:20 AM Or Mind Blank, if you're playing 3.5 - the Power Word line is now Mind-Affecting. MB is a good thing to put on anyone vulnerable to Power Words and the party's most dependable fighter.
Mr.Waesel
02-25-04, 10:12 AM Shapechange. Shapechange Shapechange Shapechange.

And then change into a chronotryryn, and fling two spells per round.

Oh, and dump MDJ. It just destroys loot. Time stop also isn't very effective any more. My choices would be:

Shapechange
Eliminster's Epulgent Effuration
Dominate Monster (however, this one is easy to circumvent)
Revelation
02-25-04, 10:59 AM Originally posted by Crimson Hellkite
Spellcaster versus melee shouldn't be too tough. I have an armor of speed, which means I'm constantly hasted and get two standard actions a round. That also means that I can cast one quickened spell and two normal spells per round; in which case, I can just shoot a quickened fireball and follow up with two delayed fireball blasts. 50~d6 damage in one round goes a long way.

If thats the case, and unless you play be a hombrewed rule system I don't see how it is :confused:, I wouldn't worry too much about the optimal choice of spell. Go for Wish and cast two badly worded wishes a round, watch the other players appreciate your character:smirk:
Lord Arkhaven
02-25-04, 11:06 AM With multiple wishes you start burning your XP for inherient bonuses to your abilities. With a +5 bonus to your Charisma you DCs and spells per day shoot up. With +5 to your Con your HP and Fort. Saves get a much needed boost. Ect., ect.

Besides, Wish can save your butt when things go crazy.

Given you have other spells, Wish is a mighty Sorcerer addition.
wdarkk
02-25-04, 11:12 AM Originally posted by Revelation
If thats the case, and unless you play be a hombrewed rule system I don't see how it is :confused:, I wouldn't worry too much about the optimal choice of spell. Go for Wish and cast two badly worded wishes a round, watch the other players appreciate your character:smirk:

It's called 3.0.
Krelios
02-25-04, 11:17 AM Spellcaster versus melee shouldn't be too tough. I have an armor of speed, which means I'm constantly hasted and get two standard actions a round. That also means that I can cast one quickened spell and two normal spells per round; in which case, I can just shoot a quickened fireball and follow up with two delayed fireball blasts. 50~d6 damage in one round goes a long way. It's called 3.0. Even in 3.0 haste didn't stack with armor of speed, nor did it stack with Quicken Spell (the feat). The MOST you could get is one regular and one quickened spell each round. Thank god they fixed haste for 3.5 though.
wdarkk
02-25-04, 12:10 PM Haste did stack with quickened spell, since those were two entirely different things - an extra partial action and a quickened spell. Nobody's claiming haste stacked with armor of speed anyway.
Veton
02-25-04, 02:09 PM Originally posted by Crimson Hellkite
Wish is a terrible spell for sorcerers. I might as well get a scroll, since it's not like I'm going to cast it more than once a day. I like Mordenkainen's disjunction since it's great for stripping buffs, and it can double off as a greater dispel magic.

Would you rather pay 28,000 gold for a scroll, which you'll need to have in order to activate it, or to know it and be able to cast it in emergencies?

And be careful with Disjunction, lest ye wind up with less loot then you need.
Votan
02-25-04, 02:57 PM Originally posted by Crimson Hellkite
My sorcerer just hit 20th level, and I need to take a third 9th level spell. I already have the obvious ones, Mordenkainen's disjunction and timestop. Now I'm thinking about Bigby's crushing hand; it absolutely destroys mages (mages almost always lose grapples; cannot cast spells while grappled). My planned strategy for mage slaying is to murder their buffs with Mordenkainen's disjunction, keep them from casting any spells with Bigby's crushing hand, and follow up with a few delayed fireball blasts or twin spelled cone of colds.

However, there is also Wail of the Banshee. Since it's fortitude based, and mages have low fortitude save bonuses, it might kill them instantly anyway. And then there is Power Word Kill, which has no save at all. I could cast a quicked fireball to put them below 100 hit points, then cast Power Word Kill. What's your opinion? :nonono:

Since you appear to be using 3.0 I would enter metor swarm as a candidate. If I recall correctly, the version used against a single person did 24d6 damage and removed that pesky saving throw. Not a big deal vs. a fighter but you'll appreciate it when people with improved evasion appear (and promptly become the primary target).
Gedrin
02-25-04, 03:59 PM Shapechange.

Shapechange overcomes one of the big problems for Sorcs. Too few spells to solve all the issues you confront. Shapechange allows you to become the best solution to the problem, and then change again to fight, and again to XYZ. It's not only massively versitile but it's also decent for combat.
Finwe
02-25-04, 04:57 PM Originally posted by Crimson Hellkite
My sorcerer just hit 20th level, and I need to take a third 9th level spell. I already have the obvious ones, Mordenkainen's disjunction and timestop. Now I'm thinking about Bigby's crushing hand; it absolutely destroys mages (mages almost always lose grapples; cannot cast spells while grappled). My planned strategy for mage slaying is to murder their buffs with Mordenkainen's disjunction, keep them from casting any spells with Bigby's crushing hand, and follow up with a few delayed fireball blasts or twin spelled cone of colds.

However, there is also Wail of the Banshee. Since it's fortitude based, and mages have low fortitude save bonuses, it might kill them instantly anyway. And then there is Power Word Kill, which has no save at all. I could cast a quicked fireball to put them below 100 hit points, then cast Power Word Kill. What's your opinion? :nonono:

Gate. It is hands down one of themost veratile and best 9th level spells out there. There are an extraordinary amount of uses. Wyrm white dragon getting on your nerves? Gate to a pool of lava in the elemental plane of fire. Need to baricade a door? Place a gate behind it and anyone charging it gets raosted. Works expecialy well when its combined with reverse gravity. Can you say negative enrgy plane?

After gate, shapechange is the best choice, for reasons mentioned above.
adiaven
02-25-04, 05:09 PM Originally posted by Crimson Hellkite
Spellcaster versus melee shouldn't be too tough. I have an armor of speed, which means I'm constantly hasted and get two standard actions a round. That also means that I can cast one quickened spell and two normal spells per round; in which case, I can just shoot a quickened fireball and follow up with two delayed fireball blasts. 50~d6 damage in one round goes a long way.

what armor do you wear that doesn't give you an arcane spell casting failure %?

And armor of speed is not a constant haste effect. It's 10 rounds per day of haste.
Arnin
02-25-04, 05:37 PM Originally posted by Timewilltell
Ah, Time Stop in 3.0. Now there was an abusable spell. There was nothing quite like casting timestop and have meteor swarm explosion after meteor swarm explosion.

Now, its still a good spell. I'd just spend that time making myself totally unhitable (Empowered mirror image, displacement, protection from spells, repulsion, etc.)

I suggest you take power word kill if your goal is to kill mages. Of course, that depends on how you calculate HP. If your DM maximizes HP every level, its not as good of a choice. If he doesn't, then you can probably start the battle by killing the mage, or, that is unless he has spell turning.

One problem with power kill on mages-they aren't all weak. Hey, I have a just-created mindflayer mage with around 56 HP. Yeah. I roll well :D
Timewilltell
02-25-04, 08:25 PM One problem with power kill on mages-they aren't all weak. Hey, I have a just-created mindflayer mage with around 56 HP. Yeah. I roll well

Well, lets say the NPC wizard had a 15 con (and thats generous) and maxed out his hit dice at first level. I'll just assume that 3 is the average roll.

At level 20, he would have:

6 + (19x(2+3))= 101 hp.

So, even a mage with a very generous spread of HP is just 1 hp away from being subject to a power word kill. It really is the ultimate mage killer.
green_yawgmoth
02-25-04, 10:26 PM Rock the time stop. Putting 2-5 DBFs into someone's pocket, then running away and counting to 6 is too much fun.
CaoSlayer
02-26-04, 06:55 AM since nobody it is mencionating it:

shades:

the wannabe wish, you can have any conjuration up to level 8 and without taking the xp penalti of the wish.
and also if save it done, they still have 80% of the original power.

a very very nice spell for sorcerers.
Dr. Jubal Harshaw
02-26-04, 11:39 AM Can i put in a word for dominate monster? It relies on you having high DCs, but if you do then the ultimate mage killer will be the fighter you just dominated (I know dominate personwould work, but this way you get 9th level DCs without having to use metamagic and you cand dominate non-humanoids as well)

Barring that then my vote would also be for shapechange, the ultimate spell for versatility

Also any spell you choose you're gonna want to be able to make use of with your 6 spells a day, and the XP for Wish will be way to prohibitive when you want to be casting this spell roughly twice a day (on average). If you want to get full use of wish, you'll have to be prepared to fall behind in levels.
wdarkk
02-26-04, 12:59 PM I vote Gate. If you go Epic, the cap on Shapechange will start to get a little annoying - Gate has no cap. If you go Epic, you probably can find a nice Rod of Excellent Magic to fix any problems with Gate.
tarkin
02-26-04, 03:24 PM Mord' Disjunction and Wish have huge downsideds, mentioned above.

Time Stop is a good spell, as is Shapechange.

But Astral Projection, if handled correctly is in many ways far superior to any other spell, including Wish, Disjunction, but can totally transform the game.

Got to other plane, fight creatures, if you die, wake up with no penalty.
wdarkk
02-26-04, 04:46 PM I once compared Astral Projection to having infinite continues. The Cat Lord earns his CR with that!
Femur Toothpick
02-26-04, 04:56 PM I would vote Shapechange

But a spell that holds a lot of merit for a high level sorcerer is Simbul's Spell Trigger (MoF). Lets you Quicken spells and acts as Contingency or Chain Contingency.
Mr.Waesel
02-28-04, 03:43 PM Originally posted by CaoSlayer
since nobody it is mencionating it:

shades:

the wannabe wish, you can have any conjuration up to level 8 and without taking the xp penalti of the wish.
and also if save it done, they still have 80% of the original power.

a very very nice spell for sorcerers.

Yeah, shades is brokenly powerful
angryman
03-02-04, 06:29 PM If you're more of a "I really don't wanna die" mage, you could do worse than Foresight. (the level 9 divination) Immunity to ambushes and stuff that almost always kills my mages is not flashy but you don't die.

"Oh, by the way, you're about to be ambushed."
"The party rogue is about to sneak attack you."
"The invisible Pit Fiend is about to drop a meteor swarm on you."

It doesn't kill stuff or make people go WOW! but...
Inkubus
03-04-04, 05:33 PM Originally posted by angryman
If you're more of a "I really don't wanna die" mage, you could do worse than Foresight. (the level 9 divination)

I think you hardly could. I mean, come on, no way that's a 9th level spell. It's horribly weak for its level...
If I had to choose I'd get either gate or shapechange.
Votan
03-04-04, 07:56 PM Originally posted by Inkubus
I think you hardly could. I mean, come on, no way that's a 9th level spell. It's horribly weak for its level...
If I had to choose I'd get either gate or shapechange.

It is a very DM dependent spell. If interpreted broadly the intellience that it grants a party is extremely valuable. If it means that the wizard has foreknowledge of what is coming in 2 rounds so that the party can prepare then it is a very nice spell. If it just acts to add the +2 to AC and reflex saves (plus no surprise round) than the amazing combination of Mage Armour (level 1) and resistance (level 0) are probably more useful.

To really be useful under these conditions Foresight needs a longer duraction as 10 mins/level means that it can't always be up and so you can be surprised once the spell expires. Mage armor at 20th level last for 20 of 24 hours, gives twice as much AC and is a first level spell.
Teh Lurv
03-04-04, 08:49 PM I'd avoid taking Wish as your spell. The Sorc's main strength is his spontaneous casting. With the 5,000xp cost, Wish probably won't be called on too often. In fact, IMHO it's better just to pay 25k for a scroll of Wish than sacrifice the XP.

I would recommend any of the following:
Meteor Swarm
Wail of the Banshee
Gate

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crimson Hellkite 02-24-04, 08:22 PM	My sorcerer just hit 20th level, and I need to take a third 9th level spell. I already have the obvious ones, Mordenkainen's disjunction and timestop. Now I'm thinking about Bigby's crushing hand; it absolutely destroys mages (mages almost always lose grapples; cannot cast spells while grappled). My planned strategy for mage slaying is to murder their buffs with Mordenkainen's disjunction, keep them from casting any spells with Bigby's crushing hand, and follow up with a few delayed fireball blasts or twin spelled cone of colds. However, there is also Wail of the Banshee. Since it's fortitude based, and mages have low fortitude save bonuses, it might kill them instantly anyway. And then there is Power Word Kill, which has no save at all. I could cast a quicked fireball to put them below 100 hit points, then cast Power Word Kill. What's your opinion? :nonono:
Heron_Marked_Blade 02-24-04, 08:29 PM	I'd go for Wail of the Banshee, personally. The multiple targets is nice. The downside is that melee combatants may resist the effect.
Crimson Hellkite 02-24-04, 08:34 PM	Spellcaster versus melee shouldn't be too tough. I have an armor of speed, which means I'm constantly hasted and get two standard actions a round. That also means that I can cast one quickened spell and two normal spells per round; in which case, I can just shoot a quickened fireball and follow up with two delayed fireball blasts. 50~d6 damage in one round goes a long way.
flyingmoose 02-24-04, 09:32 PM	Um... wish? Just a hunch. Plus I'd never take disjunction because you're destroying the loot, and possibly your ability to cast spells if there's an artifact hiding about (which at 20th level is quite likely).
LordHell 02-24-04, 09:41 PM	I'm a big fan of a Maximised Chain Lightening or two, for those times you really want to dish out the damage.
Crimson Hellkite 02-24-04, 09:50 PM	Wish is a terrible spell for sorcerers. I might as well get a scroll, since it's not like I'm going to cast it more than once a day. I like Mordenkainen's disjunction since it's great for stripping buffs, and it can double off as a greater dispel magic.
The Simbul 02-24-04, 11:06 PM	Shapechange Who needs Bigby's Crushing Hand when you can transform into a Dragon and grapple the Mage with your claws (and use yoru breath weapon on them). Furthermore, Shapechange grants you the Supernatural and Extraoridinary powers of your new form, which in many cases allows you to make up for your fewer known spells. Shapechanging into a Beholder for instance, allows you to have access to several spells through their Eye Rays (Su), and on top of that, the Save DC for such abilities would arguebaly be 10 + 1/2 your HD/CL + your Charisma bonus. Shapechanging into a Golem grants you Magic Immunity, Shapechanging into a Archon lets you cast Greater Teleport at will, Shapechanging into a Nymph grants you a Deflection Bonus to AC and a Bonus to all saves equal to your CHA mod, etc etc etc. Shapechange, Gate, and Wish are by far three of the most versatile 9th level spells, I would suggest you choose one of them. Wail of the Banshee, while powerful, has only a specified use, and many characters NPCs, and Monsters can be rendered immune to Death effects through templates, types/subtypes, or Supernatural and Extraordinary abilities (which a MDJ cannot touch).
LordHell 02-24-04, 11:21 PM	Originally posted by The Simbul Shapechange Who needs Bigby's Crushing Hand when you can transform into a Dragon and grapple the Mage with your claws (and use yoru breath weapon on them). Furthermore, Shapechange grants you the Supernatural and Extraoridinary powers of your new form, which in many cases allows you to make up for your fewer known spells. Shapechanging into a Beholder for instance, allows you to have access to several spells through their Eye Rays (Su), and on top of that, the Save DC for such abilities would arguebaly be 10 + 1/2 your HD/CL + your Charisma bonus. Shapechanging into a Golem grants you Magic Immunity, Shapechanging into a Archon lets you cast Greater Teleport at will, Shapechanging into a Nymph grants you a Deflection Bonus to AC and a Bonus to all saves equal to your CHA mod, etc etc etc. Shapechange, Gate, and Wish are by far three of the most versatile 9th level spells, I would suggest you choose one of them. Wail of the Banshee, while powerful, has only a specified use, and many characters NPCs, and Monsters can be rendered immune to Death effects through templates, types/subtypes, or Supernatural and Extraordinary abilities (which a MDJ cannot touch). I'd agree with this, except I feel that timestop is probably the premier 9th level spell.
wdarkk 02-24-04, 11:48 PM	Not in 3.5; it's now VERY difficult to use, although with Sphere of Ultimate Destruction (Unapproachable East) or Delayed Blast Fireball it might be useful (although timing the DBFs would be tricky, since TS duration is secretly rolled). It's also terrific for a summoner - you come out of Time Stop with a brand-new army and a readied action to counter his MDJ.
Timewilltell 02-25-04, 12:10 AM	Ah, Time Stop in 3.0. Now there was an abusable spell. There was nothing quite like casting timestop and have meteor swarm explosion after meteor swarm explosion. Now, its still a good spell. I'd just spend that time making myself totally unhitable (Empowered mirror image, displacement, protection from spells, repulsion, etc.) I suggest you take power word kill if your goal is to kill mages. Of course, that depends on how you calculate HP. If your DM maximizes HP every level, its not as good of a choice. If he doesn't, then you can probably start the battle by killing the mage, or, that is unless he has spell turning.
wdarkk 02-25-04, 12:20 AM	Or Mind Blank, if you're playing 3.5 - the Power Word line is now Mind-Affecting. MB is a good thing to put on anyone vulnerable to Power Words and the party's most dependable fighter.
Mr.Waesel 02-25-04, 10:12 AM	Shapechange. Shapechange Shapechange Shapechange. And then change into a chronotryryn, and fling two spells per round. Oh, and dump MDJ. It just destroys loot. Time stop also isn't very effective any more. My choices would be: Shapechange Eliminster's Epulgent Effuration Dominate Monster (however, this one is easy to circumvent)
Revelation 02-25-04, 10:59 AM	Originally posted by Crimson Hellkite Spellcaster versus melee shouldn't be too tough. I have an armor of speed, which means I'm constantly hasted and get two standard actions a round. That also means that I can cast one quickened spell and two normal spells per round; in which case, I can just shoot a quickened fireball and follow up with two delayed fireball blasts. 50~d6 damage in one round goes a long way. If thats the case, and unless you play be a hombrewed rule system I don't see how it is :confused:, I wouldn't worry too much about the optimal choice of spell. Go for Wish and cast two badly worded wishes a round, watch the other players appreciate your character:smirk:
Lord Arkhaven 02-25-04, 11:06 AM	With multiple wishes you start burning your XP for inherient bonuses to your abilities. With a +5 bonus to your Charisma you DCs and spells per day shoot up. With +5 to your Con your HP and Fort. Saves get a much needed boost. Ect., ect. Besides, Wish can save your butt when things go crazy. Given you have other spells, Wish is a mighty Sorcerer addition.
wdarkk 02-25-04, 11:12 AM	Originally posted by Revelation If thats the case, and unless you play be a hombrewed rule system I don't see how it is :confused:, I wouldn't worry too much about the optimal choice of spell. Go for Wish and cast two badly worded wishes a round, watch the other players appreciate your character:smirk: It's called 3.0.
Krelios 02-25-04, 11:17 AM	Spellcaster versus melee shouldn't be too tough. I have an armor of speed, which means I'm constantly hasted and get two standard actions a round. That also means that I can cast one quickened spell and two normal spells per round; in which case, I can just shoot a quickened fireball and follow up with two delayed fireball blasts. 50~d6 damage in one round goes a long way. It's called 3.0. Even in 3.0 haste didn't stack with armor of speed, nor did it stack with Quicken Spell (the feat). The MOST you could get is one regular and one quickened spell each round. Thank god they fixed haste for 3.5 though.
wdarkk 02-25-04, 12:10 PM	Haste did stack with quickened spell, since those were two entirely different things - an extra partial action and a quickened spell. Nobody's claiming haste stacked with armor of speed anyway.
Veton 02-25-04, 02:09 PM	Originally posted by Crimson Hellkite Wish is a terrible spell for sorcerers. I might as well get a scroll, since it's not like I'm going to cast it more than once a day. I like Mordenkainen's disjunction since it's great for stripping buffs, and it can double off as a greater dispel magic. Would you rather pay 28,000 gold for a scroll, which you'll need to have in order to activate it, or to know it and be able to cast it in emergencies? And be careful with Disjunction, lest ye wind up with less loot then you need.
Votan 02-25-04, 02:57 PM	Originally posted by Crimson Hellkite My sorcerer just hit 20th level, and I need to take a third 9th level spell. I already have the obvious ones, Mordenkainen's disjunction and timestop. Now I'm thinking about Bigby's crushing hand; it absolutely destroys mages (mages almost always lose grapples; cannot cast spells while grappled). My planned strategy for mage slaying is to murder their buffs with Mordenkainen's disjunction, keep them from casting any spells with Bigby's crushing hand, and follow up with a few delayed fireball blasts or twin spelled cone of colds. However, there is also Wail of the Banshee. Since it's fortitude based, and mages have low fortitude save bonuses, it might kill them instantly anyway. And then there is Power Word Kill, which has no save at all. I could cast a quicked fireball to put them below 100 hit points, then cast Power Word Kill. What's your opinion? :nonono: Since you appear to be using 3.0 I would enter metor swarm as a candidate. If I recall correctly, the version used against a single person did 24d6 damage and removed that pesky saving throw. Not a big deal vs. a fighter but you'll appreciate it when people with improved evasion appear (and promptly become the primary target).
Gedrin 02-25-04, 03:59 PM	Shapechange. Shapechange overcomes one of the big problems for Sorcs. Too few spells to solve all the issues you confront. Shapechange allows you to become the best solution to the problem, and then change again to fight, and again to XYZ. It's not only massively versitile but it's also decent for combat.
Finwe 02-25-04, 04:57 PM	Originally posted by Crimson Hellkite My sorcerer just hit 20th level, and I need to take a third 9th level spell. I already have the obvious ones, Mordenkainen's disjunction and timestop. Now I'm thinking about Bigby's crushing hand; it absolutely destroys mages (mages almost always lose grapples; cannot cast spells while grappled). My planned strategy for mage slaying is to murder their buffs with Mordenkainen's disjunction, keep them from casting any spells with Bigby's crushing hand, and follow up with a few delayed fireball blasts or twin spelled cone of colds. However, there is also Wail of the Banshee. Since it's fortitude based, and mages have low fortitude save bonuses, it might kill them instantly anyway. And then there is Power Word Kill, which has no save at all. I could cast a quicked fireball to put them below 100 hit points, then cast Power Word Kill. What's your opinion? :nonono: Gate. It is hands down one of themost veratile and best 9th level spells out there. There are an extraordinary amount of uses. Wyrm white dragon getting on your nerves? Gate to a pool of lava in the elemental plane of fire. Need to baricade a door? Place a gate behind it and anyone charging it gets raosted. Works expecialy well when its combined with reverse gravity. Can you say negative enrgy plane? After gate, shapechange is the best choice, for reasons mentioned above.
adiaven 02-25-04, 05:09 PM	Originally posted by Crimson Hellkite Spellcaster versus melee shouldn't be too tough. I have an armor of speed, which means I'm constantly hasted and get two standard actions a round. That also means that I can cast one quickened spell and two normal spells per round; in which case, I can just shoot a quickened fireball and follow up with two delayed fireball blasts. 50~d6 damage in one round goes a long way. what armor do you wear that doesn't give you an arcane spell casting failure %? And armor of speed is not a constant haste effect. It's 10 rounds per day of haste.
Arnin 02-25-04, 05:37 PM	Originally posted by Timewilltell Ah, Time Stop in 3.0. Now there was an abusable spell. There was nothing quite like casting timestop and have meteor swarm explosion after meteor swarm explosion. Now, its still a good spell. I'd just spend that time making myself totally unhitable (Empowered mirror image, displacement, protection from spells, repulsion, etc.) I suggest you take power word kill if your goal is to kill mages. Of course, that depends on how you calculate HP. If your DM maximizes HP every level, its not as good of a choice. If he doesn't, then you can probably start the battle by killing the mage, or, that is unless he has spell turning. One problem with power kill on mages-they aren't all weak. Hey, I have a just-created mindflayer mage with around 56 HP. Yeah. I roll well :D
Timewilltell 02-25-04, 08:25 PM	One problem with power kill on mages-they aren't all weak. Hey, I have a just-created mindflayer mage with around 56 HP. Yeah. I roll well Well, lets say the NPC wizard had a 15 con (and thats generous) and maxed out his hit dice at first level. I'll just assume that 3 is the average roll. At level 20, he would have: 6 + (19x(2+3))= 101 hp. So, even a mage with a very generous spread of HP is just 1 hp away from being subject to a power word kill. It really is the ultimate mage killer.
green_yawgmoth 02-25-04, 10:26 PM	Rock the time stop. Putting 2-5 DBFs into someone's pocket, then running away and counting to 6 is too much fun.
CaoSlayer 02-26-04, 06:55 AM	since nobody it is mencionating it: shades: the wannabe wish, you can have any conjuration up to level 8 and without taking the xp penalti of the wish. and also if save it done, they still have 80% of the original power. a very very nice spell for sorcerers.
Dr. Jubal Harshaw 02-26-04, 11:39 AM	Can i put in a word for dominate monster? It relies on you having high DCs, but if you do then the ultimate mage killer will be the fighter you just dominated (I know dominate personwould work, but this way you get 9th level DCs without having to use metamagic and you cand dominate non-humanoids as well) Barring that then my vote would also be for shapechange, the ultimate spell for versatility Also any spell you choose you're gonna want to be able to make use of with your 6 spells a day, and the XP for Wish will be way to prohibitive when you want to be casting this spell roughly twice a day (on average). If you want to get full use of wish, you'll have to be prepared to fall behind in levels.
wdarkk 02-26-04, 12:59 PM	I vote Gate. If you go Epic, the cap on Shapechange will start to get a little annoying - Gate has no cap. If you go Epic, you probably can find a nice Rod of Excellent Magic to fix any problems with Gate.
tarkin 02-26-04, 03:24 PM	Mord' Disjunction and Wish have huge downsideds, mentioned above. Time Stop is a good spell, as is Shapechange. But Astral Projection, if handled correctly is in many ways far superior to any other spell, including Wish, Disjunction, but can totally transform the game. Got to other plane, fight creatures, if you die, wake up with no penalty.
wdarkk 02-26-04, 04:46 PM	I once compared Astral Projection to having infinite continues. The Cat Lord earns his CR with that!
Femur Toothpick 02-26-04, 04:56 PM	I would vote Shapechange But a spell that holds a lot of merit for a high level sorcerer is Simbul's Spell Trigger (MoF). Lets you Quicken spells and acts as Contingency or Chain Contingency.
Mr.Waesel 02-28-04, 03:43 PM	Originally posted by CaoSlayer since nobody it is mencionating it: shades: the wannabe wish, you can have any conjuration up to level 8 and without taking the xp penalti of the wish. and also if save it done, they still have 80% of the original power. a very very nice spell for sorcerers. Yeah, shades is brokenly powerful
angryman 03-02-04, 06:29 PM	If you're more of a "I really don't wanna die" mage, you could do worse than Foresight. (the level 9 divination) Immunity to ambushes and stuff that almost always kills my mages is not flashy but you don't die. "Oh, by the way, you're about to be ambushed." "The party rogue is about to sneak attack you." "The invisible Pit Fiend is about to drop a meteor swarm on you." It doesn't kill stuff or make people go WOW! but...
Inkubus 03-04-04, 05:33 PM	Originally posted by angryman If you're more of a "I really don't wanna die" mage, you could do worse than Foresight. (the level 9 divination) I think you hardly could. I mean, come on, no way that's a 9th level spell. It's horribly weak for its level... If I had to choose I'd get either gate or shapechange.
Votan 03-04-04, 07:56 PM	Originally posted by Inkubus I think you hardly could. I mean, come on, no way that's a 9th level spell. It's horribly weak for its level... If I had to choose I'd get either gate or shapechange. It is a very DM dependent spell. If interpreted broadly the intellience that it grants a party is extremely valuable. If it means that the wizard has foreknowledge of what is coming in 2 rounds so that the party can prepare then it is a very nice spell. If it just acts to add the +2 to AC and reflex saves (plus no surprise round) than the amazing combination of Mage Armour (level 1) and resistance (level 0) are probably more useful. To really be useful under these conditions Foresight needs a longer duraction as 10 mins/level means that it can't always be up and so you can be surprised once the spell expires. Mage armor at 20th level last for 20 of 24 hours, gives twice as much AC and is a first level spell.
Teh Lurv 03-04-04, 08:49 PM	I'd avoid taking Wish as your spell. The Sorc's main strength is his spontaneous casting. With the 5,000xp cost, Wish probably won't be called on too often. In fact, IMHO it's better just to pay 25k for a scroll of Wish than sacrifice the XP. I would recommend any of the following: Meteor Swarm Wail of the Banshee Gate