Hobgoblin Warblade [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hobgoblin Warblade [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Patrikc
05-03-07, 09:10 PM First of all, a "hey!" to all of you on the forums! ;)
If you don't feel like a story, you can skip it till the last paragraph, where I stated my question.

First the story: I started out in one of my DM's campaigns as a Githzerai Monk, in which I'd need to spend 2 out of 6 levels on the githzerai (to be a level 4 monk when the rest would be a level 6 character). I consider myself (as well as my the rest of my DnD-crew) pretty experienced and when anyone of us DM's, we're also pretty lenient towards the players (maybe a bit too lenient at times).
Anyway, I get bored fast, and want to get rid of the Monk now. :rolleyes:
I finally got a good look at the Tome of Battle (after I had dismissed it earlier for being too complicated :p). But I <3 the Warblade now!

Here's the thing: I want to play a Hobgoblin Warblade. Primarily 'cause of the roleplaying issues it'll bring in the (mostly) good-aligned party, with me probably going LN. But the stats don't hurt either! ;) However after looking at the MM Hobbie, it's clearly not worth the LA +1. I discussed it with my DM about dropping the LA, and he would look into it. Knowing him pretty well, I didn't expect him to change anything and I went looking for another solution, which I found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=839946).
The next day I enthousiastically spammed my DM with the link. He then told me that he approved the MM Hobbie as LA +0! :eek: Now I don't know what to do!

So here I am on the Wizards' boards, asking you for help. As a Warblade, should I stick to the MM Hobbie, and forget about the +1 armor, +10 ft speed and EWP (Bastard Sword) (which I plan on taking anyway, I'm going for bastard sword + shield), or should I take the 'revamped Hobgoblin' and spend a level in that? Imo both are kewl... Opinions are really welcome!

Thanks,
Patrikc
Patrikc
05-03-07, 09:16 PM Here are the two little devils, so you guys won't have to switch tabs/windows ;)

(Revamped) Hobgoblin as characters:
• +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution. Hobgoblins are quick creatures with notable durability.
• Medium size: Hobgoblins are medium-sized humanoids with the goblinoid subtype.
• Hobgoblin base landspeed is 40 feet.
• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• +4 racial bonus on move silently checks.
• +1 natural armor.
• +2 racial bonus on craft checks related to weapons or armor.
• Weapons training: Hobgoblins lead a strict military lifestyle, and often specialize in unique weapons. A hobgoblin may select one exotic weapon to proficient with at first level.
• Automatic langauges: Common, Goblin Bonus language: Abyssal, Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc
• LA+1

HOBGOBLIN CHARACTERS
Hobgoblin characters possess the following racial traits.
• +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution.
• A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
• Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc.
• Favored Class: Fighter.
• Level adjustment +0.

Note: I changed the d20 LA, so technically it's not a quote anymore. :)
Platstud
05-04-07, 09:28 AM The problem with the MM Hobgoblin is that it's too good for LA 0, but not good enough for LA +1. AMGriffin's Hobgoblin is strong, but balanced for LA+1. However, if your DM is offering the MM Hobgoblin for LA 0, I'd say go for it.
Puggins
05-04-07, 10:57 AM The standard hobgoblin is ridiculously strong for a +0 LA race. Personally, I think it's not that far from +1 LA- AMGriffin's version is on the strong side of +1- compare it to the Draconic template, one of the best +1 templates around.

My suggestion would be to take the original Hobbie at +1 and then use the Reducing Level Adjustment rules:

http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

That'll compensate for the weaker +1, but won't overpower your character like making the Hobbie a +0.
Platstud
05-04-07, 11:02 AM The standard hobgoblin is ridiculously strong for a +0 LA race. Personally, I think it's not that far from +1 LA- AMGriffin's version is on the strong side of +1- compare it to the Draconic template, one of the best +1 templates around.

My suggestion would be to take the original Hobbie at +1 and then use the Reducing Level Adjustment rules:

http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

That'll compensate for the weaker +1, but won't overpower your character like making the Hobbie a +0.

I tend to agree that the standard Hobgoblin is overpowered for +1 LA. My suggestion from AMGriffin's thread was to give them -2 wisdom and remove the +4 to Move Silently. That's still powerful, but a little closer.
Patrikc
05-04-07, 04:28 PM As much as I appreciate your input, you're not really solving anything. Unbalanced or not, my DM has allowed them both. My question was if the Revamped Hobgoblin was worth the 1 level I needed to invest in it (not just statistically worth it, it also fits my personal view of a hobgoblin better, as a war-bred race) compared to the MM Hobgoblin (which is free).

PS. I agree with Platstud, but don't tell my DM that! ;)
Ekkoe
05-04-07, 05:35 PM Hey,

I'm his DM and I wanted to speak on behalf of... myself. See, the MM Hobbo isn't all that overpowered, imo (and in Mr. TheWhat's oppinion too). Compare it to the Dwarf or Gnome, it doesn't look all that overpowered for LA +0. Take a look.

* +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution.
* A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc.
* Favored Class: Fighter.
* Level adjustment +1.

* +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
* Medium size.
* A dwarf’s base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
* Darkvision out to to 60 feet.
* Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. Dwarves have a sixth sense about stonework, an innate ability that they get plenty of opportunity to practice and hone in their underground homes.
* Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
* Stability: Dwarves are exceptionally stable on their feet. A dwarf has a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
* +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. *Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here.
* +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. *Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here.
* +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs (including half-orcs) and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears).
* +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants).
* +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
* +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, Undercommon.
* Favored Class: Fighter.

If we compare these two we see:
- +2 con and +2 con, even out.
- Against +4 move silently we can put: +2 on saves against poison, which is clearly even.
- Darkvision and Darkvision evens out.
- Against +2 dex we can put: for starters, -2 charisma, but evening this out we have: Stonecunning, +2 on Spells, +2 appraise (specified), +2 on craft (specified), Weapon Familiarity, Stability, +1 on Gobbo's and Orcs and +4 armor class against Giants.

Now -2 cha may be a drawback, but not compared to its advantages and I can't say I find +2 dex any better than all the advantages and a charisma penatlty.

Matter of oppinion, perhaps, but 'cuz I am DM, my oppinion matters! ;)
Puggins
05-04-07, 06:04 PM If we compare these two we see:
- +2 con and +2 con, even out.
- Against +4 move silently we can put: +2 on saves against poison, which is clearly even.

Well, not really. If you translate both to feats, the +4 MS is better than skill focus:MS, while +2 saves vs. poison is significantly weaker than Great Fortitude. I'm aware that both feats are weak, but the fact is that one ability is clearly better than the other. The +2 on spells combined with the poison will become better than any of those feats, but only by a small amount.

- Darkvision and Darkvision evens out.
- Against +2 dex we can put: for starters, -2 charisma, but evening this out we have: Stonecunning, +2 on Spells, +2 appraise (specified), +2 on craft (specified), Weapon Familiarity, Stability, +1 on Gobbo's and Orcs and +4 armor class against Giants.

You forgot the 20ft move of the dwarves, which is a BIG drawback, even when you figure in their armor adaptation. Weapon Familiarity, Stability, appraise/craft... these are all neat perks, but even tied together they don't come close to compensating for changing a -2 penalty to a +2 bonus to a very important stat.

Anyway, comparing to a dwarf is awkward because of the movement difference. How about comparing to an elf?

Low light vision vs darkvision 60'- Hobbie wins
+2 to listen/search/spot vs +4 to MS. I'd give this to the elf by a smidgen
Immunity to sleep, +2 vs enchantment, wpn prof. Nice points for the elf.
-2 con to +2 con. HUGE bonus for the hobgoblin.

If both started with 6 points in con (base 14), hobbie would have 16 con, +3 fort save, +3hp/lvl, elf would have 12con, +1 fort, +1 hp/lvl. That +2 fort by itself gets rid of the nice sleep/enchantment bonus of the elf, and then some. Those extra 2 hp/lvl means that a hobbie fighter at 10th level will have 94 hp pre-magic, an elf will have 74 hp pre-magic. That's the equivalent of two stacking improved toughness feats.

I'm not saying that the hobbie is mind-blowingly awesome, mind you- it's one of the weaker +1 LA races. But it's certainly better than the base races. Will switching it to +0 LA break the game? No, but the hobgoblin player will have an advantage. That's why I advocated using LA buyback.

Anyway, going by the choice the OP gave, I'd go with the +0LA, no question. Those bonuses in the revamped hobbie do NOT constitute a +1LA bonus over a +0LA base hobbie.

Now -2 cha may be a drawback, but not compared to its advantages and I can't say I find +2 dex any better than all the advantages and a charisma penatlty.

Matter of oppinion, perhaps, but 'cuz I am DM, my oppinion matters! ;)

Can't argue there!
Patrikc
05-04-07, 07:57 PM Maybe you can argue with the fact that it's 'opinion' and not 'oppinion'... *gets level-downed by his DM for being a wise ass* ^^ (my Firefox (which he used) even has a spellings-check on it lol)

Anyway, thanks for the opinions, I made up my mind now... MM Hobbie it is!

Patrikc
Midnight_v
05-04-07, 08:59 PM I think he's right... The Dm I mean. Its not that much a difference between hobgoblin and dwarf that +2 doesnt' even matter. There was a kingdoms of kalamak goblin book with a lot of variant goblins...
Neutronium_Dragon
05-04-07, 09:23 PM I would go with the LA +0 version. When you're playing a martial adept, you don't want to lose out on initiator levels if you can at all help it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Patrikc 05-03-07, 09:10 PM	First of all, a "hey!" to all of you on the forums! ;) If you don't feel like a story, you can skip it till the last paragraph, where I stated my question. First the story: I started out in one of my DM's campaigns as a Githzerai Monk, in which I'd need to spend 2 out of 6 levels on the githzerai (to be a level 4 monk when the rest would be a level 6 character). I consider myself (as well as my the rest of my DnD-crew) pretty experienced and when anyone of us DM's, we're also pretty lenient towards the players (maybe a bit too lenient at times). Anyway, I get bored fast, and want to get rid of the Monk now. :rolleyes: I finally got a good look at the Tome of Battle (after I had dismissed it earlier for being too complicated :p). But I <3 the Warblade now! Here's the thing: I want to play a Hobgoblin Warblade. Primarily 'cause of the roleplaying issues it'll bring in the (mostly) good-aligned party, with me probably going LN. But the stats don't hurt either! ;) However after looking at the MM Hobbie, it's clearly not worth the LA +1. I discussed it with my DM about dropping the LA, and he would look into it. Knowing him pretty well, I didn't expect him to change anything and I went looking for another solution, which I found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=839946). The next day I enthousiastically spammed my DM with the link. He then told me that he approved the MM Hobbie as LA +0! :eek: Now I don't know what to do! So here I am on the Wizards' boards, asking you for help. As a Warblade, should I stick to the MM Hobbie, and forget about the +1 armor, +10 ft speed and EWP (Bastard Sword) (which I plan on taking anyway, I'm going for bastard sword + shield), or should I take the 'revamped Hobgoblin' and spend a level in that? Imo both are kewl... Opinions are really welcome! Thanks, Patrikc
Patrikc 05-03-07, 09:16 PM	Here are the two little devils, so you guys won't have to switch tabs/windows ;) (Revamped) Hobgoblin as characters: • +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution. Hobgoblins are quick creatures with notable durability. • Medium size: Hobgoblins are medium-sized humanoids with the goblinoid subtype. • Hobgoblin base landspeed is 40 feet. • Darkvision out to 60 feet. • +4 racial bonus on move silently checks. • +1 natural armor. • +2 racial bonus on craft checks related to weapons or armor. • Weapons training: Hobgoblins lead a strict military lifestyle, and often specialize in unique weapons. A hobgoblin may select one exotic weapon to proficient with at first level. • Automatic langauges: Common, Goblin Bonus language: Abyssal, Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc • LA+1 HOBGOBLIN CHARACTERS Hobgoblin characters possess the following racial traits. • +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution. • A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet. • Darkvision out to 60 feet. • +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. • Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc. • Favored Class: Fighter. • Level adjustment +0. Note: I changed the d20 LA, so technically it's not a quote anymore. :)
Platstud 05-04-07, 09:28 AM	The problem with the MM Hobgoblin is that it's too good for LA 0, but not good enough for LA +1. AMGriffin's Hobgoblin is strong, but balanced for LA+1. However, if your DM is offering the MM Hobgoblin for LA 0, I'd say go for it.
Puggins 05-04-07, 10:57 AM	The standard hobgoblin is ridiculously strong for a +0 LA race. Personally, I think it's not that far from +1 LA- AMGriffin's version is on the strong side of +1- compare it to the Draconic template, one of the best +1 templates around. My suggestion would be to take the original Hobbie at +1 and then use the Reducing Level Adjustment rules: http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm That'll compensate for the weaker +1, but won't overpower your character like making the Hobbie a +0.
Platstud 05-04-07, 11:02 AM	The standard hobgoblin is ridiculously strong for a +0 LA race. Personally, I think it's not that far from +1 LA- AMGriffin's version is on the strong side of +1- compare it to the Draconic template, one of the best +1 templates around. My suggestion would be to take the original Hobbie at +1 and then use the Reducing Level Adjustment rules: http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm That'll compensate for the weaker +1, but won't overpower your character like making the Hobbie a +0. I tend to agree that the standard Hobgoblin is overpowered for +1 LA. My suggestion from AMGriffin's thread was to give them -2 wisdom and remove the +4 to Move Silently. That's still powerful, but a little closer.
Patrikc 05-04-07, 04:28 PM	As much as I appreciate your input, you're not really solving anything. Unbalanced or not, my DM has allowed them both. My question was if the Revamped Hobgoblin was worth the 1 level I needed to invest in it (not just statistically worth it, it also fits my personal view of a hobgoblin better, as a war-bred race) compared to the MM Hobgoblin (which is free). PS. I agree with Platstud, but don't tell my DM that! ;)
Ekkoe 05-04-07, 05:35 PM	Hey, I'm his DM and I wanted to speak on behalf of... myself. See, the MM Hobbo isn't all that overpowered, imo (and in Mr. TheWhat's oppinion too). Compare it to the Dwarf or Gnome, it doesn't look all that overpowered for LA +0. Take a look. * +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution. * A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet. * Darkvision out to 60 feet. * +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. * Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc. * Favored Class: Fighter. * Level adjustment +1. * +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma. * Medium size. * A dwarf’s base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load. * Darkvision out to to 60 feet. * Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. Dwarves have a sixth sense about stonework, an innate ability that they get plenty of opportunity to practice and hone in their underground homes. * Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. * Stability: Dwarves are exceptionally stable on their feet. A dwarf has a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground). * +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here. +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs (including half-orcs) and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears). * +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants). * +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items. * +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal. * Automatic Languages: Common, Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, Undercommon. * Favored Class: Fighter. If we compare these two we see: - +2 con and +2 con, even out. - Against +4 move silently we can put: +2 on saves against poison, which is clearly even. - Darkvision and Darkvision evens out. - Against +2 dex we can put: for starters, -2 charisma, but evening this out we have: Stonecunning, +2 on Spells, +2 appraise (specified), +2 on craft (specified), Weapon Familiarity, Stability, +1 on Gobbo's and Orcs and +4 armor class against Giants. Now -2 cha may be a drawback, but not compared to its advantages and I can't say I find +2 dex any better than all the advantages and a charisma penatlty. Matter of oppinion, perhaps, but 'cuz I am DM, my oppinion matters! ;)
Puggins 05-04-07, 06:04 PM	If we compare these two we see: - +2 con and +2 con, even out. - Against +4 move silently we can put: +2 on saves against poison, which is clearly even. Well, not really. If you translate both to feats, the +4 MS is better than skill focus:MS, while +2 saves vs. poison is significantly weaker than Great Fortitude. I'm aware that both feats are weak, but the fact is that one ability is clearly better than the other. The +2 on spells combined with the poison will become better than any of those feats, but only by a small amount. - Darkvision and Darkvision evens out. - Against +2 dex we can put: for starters, -2 charisma, but evening this out we have: Stonecunning, +2 on Spells, +2 appraise (specified), +2 on craft (specified), Weapon Familiarity, Stability, +1 on Gobbo's and Orcs and +4 armor class against Giants. You forgot the 20ft move of the dwarves, which is a BIG drawback, even when you figure in their armor adaptation. Weapon Familiarity, Stability, appraise/craft... these are all neat perks, but even tied together they don't come close to compensating for changing a -2 penalty to a +2 bonus to a very important stat. Anyway, comparing to a dwarf is awkward because of the movement difference. How about comparing to an elf? Low light vision vs darkvision 60'- Hobbie wins +2 to listen/search/spot vs +4 to MS. I'd give this to the elf by a smidgen Immunity to sleep, +2 vs enchantment, wpn prof. Nice points for the elf. -2 con to +2 con. HUGE bonus for the hobgoblin. If both started with 6 points in con (base 14), hobbie would have 16 con, +3 fort save, +3hp/lvl, elf would have 12con, +1 fort, +1 hp/lvl. That +2 fort by itself gets rid of the nice sleep/enchantment bonus of the elf, and then some. Those extra 2 hp/lvl means that a hobbie fighter at 10th level will have 94 hp pre-magic, an elf will have 74 hp pre-magic. That's the equivalent of two stacking improved toughness feats. I'm not saying that the hobbie is mind-blowingly awesome, mind you- it's one of the weaker +1 LA races. But it's certainly better than the base races. Will switching it to +0 LA break the game? No, but the hobgoblin player will have an advantage. That's why I advocated using LA buyback. Anyway, going by the choice the OP gave, I'd go with the +0LA, no question. Those bonuses in the revamped hobbie do NOT constitute a +1LA bonus over a +0LA base hobbie. Now -2 cha may be a drawback, but not compared to its advantages and I can't say I find +2 dex any better than all the advantages and a charisma penatlty. Matter of oppinion, perhaps, but 'cuz I am DM, my oppinion matters! ;) Can't argue there!
Patrikc 05-04-07, 07:57 PM	Maybe you can argue with the fact that it's 'opinion' and not 'oppinion'... gets level-downed by his DM for being a wise ass ^^ (my Firefox (which he used) even has a spellings-check on it lol) Anyway, thanks for the opinions, I made up my mind now... MM Hobbie it is! Patrikc
Midnight_v 05-04-07, 08:59 PM	I think he's right... The Dm I mean. Its not that much a difference between hobgoblin and dwarf that +2 doesnt' even matter. There was a kingdoms of kalamak goblin book with a lot of variant goblins...
Neutronium_Dragon 05-04-07, 09:23 PM	I would go with the LA +0 version. When you're playing a martial adept, you don't want to lose out on initiator levels if you can at all help it.