Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Melvin the Mediocre 05-21-07, 09:03 AM	I had a character cast stinking cloud on an air elemental. The DM said it was immune because it was immune to poison and it didn't breathe. I said that the spell description made no mention of the vapors being poison or needing to be breathed in. Still the elemental was ruled to be immune. It was then decided that all creatures could avoid effects of the spell by holding their breath. Are there any offical rulings on these issues that we can examin? Barring official rules, are there even any sage advice or other semi offical rulings?
Prator_the_Legendary 05-21-07, 09:16 AM	It makes a certain amount of sense, but it kinda depends on the individual interpretation of how a stinking cloud works. I always thought it simplest to treat it like tear gas, since that negates the problem of whether or not you have to inhale it. I don't think elementals can be nauseated, so it wouldn't work on them no matter what.
Optimized_Commoner 05-21-07, 09:32 AM	Technically according to the RAW, elementals are affected by stinking cloud. Page 308 of the MM 3.5 describes the elemental as a "living creature". Stinking cloud on Page 284 of the PHB 3.5 says that the spell affects "living creatures". Elementals aren't defined as immune to nausea so far as I can see. I personally would say that an elemental wouldn't be affected, but that's going against the rules.
Melvin the Mediocre 05-21-07, 09:38 AM	Elemental Traits: Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, and stunning; not subject to critical hits or flanking; darkvision 60 ft.; cannot be raised or resurrected (though a wish or miracle spell can restore life). Just to be clear I'm looking for official or as close to offical rules as I can get. Sure we can all banter opinions on the subject, but I'm looking for RAW. And the bigger problem is can creatures hold their breath to ignore the stinking cloud. That really bothered me.
LCD2YOU 05-21-07, 09:46 AM	Personally, I think anything with a Con can be nauseated, but that is me. Note this is how I do it as a DM. As far as Stinking Cloud goes, which is diffewrent from Cloudkill, that's why there's a saving throw associated with it. I tend to think of it as Tear Gas that can enter into the body via pores, eyes and such. Of course, inhalation works best. If a person were to "hold their breath", they still need to make a savign throw. A DM can give a good save bonus if character can see the cloud coming a full round before it's there. Still they have to actually know what it is requiring a Spellcraft check. Otherwise a character will be holding their breath everytime they went by a fire and there was an enemy caster on the other side. Even if the person makes their save and is holding their breath, if they are in combat taking hits from weapons or magic they have to make another saving throw with no mods not to suck in. On top of that, just think how hard it would be to be moving around, fighting and keeping yourself from breathing for at least 6 rounds (1 round prior and 5th level Wizard). You'd best leave the area. In enclosed spaces, like underground, the Stinking Cloud can stay with you for a while. That makes it very difficult and if you fail a Will check (not to breath), you will gasp in air and have to make another save vs the Cloud, this time no modifiers. Cloudkill is even worse. You don't have to breath Cloudkill as it can go into one's skin and kill you. It even says so in the description that holding one's breath will not help. My :twocents:
Prator_the_Legendary 05-21-07, 09:51 AM	..Elementals aren't immune to nausea, and yet they ARE immune to poison? That doesn't make sense... From the minimal amount I know about things that are composed entirely of pure air, earth, water, and fire, I would conclude that they don't have circulatory, respiratory, or digestive systems. Without any of those things, how can you be nauseated?
LCD2YOU 05-21-07, 09:58 AM	I don't think that Elementals are immune to poison. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If they are, then Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill will not work on them. The rest will stand though for beings who aren't immune to poison.
Prator_the_Legendary 05-21-07, 10:03 AM	You're wrong. All elementals have darkvision out to 60 feet. Elementals have immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning. They are also not subject to critical hits or flanking, due to their unique physiology.
LCD2YOU 05-21-07, 10:17 AM	You're wrong.Not the first time and certainly not the last. I didn't know that.
Kursk 05-21-07, 01:17 PM	Not the first time and certainly not the last. I didn't know that. The reason they are immune from what we think of as poison is that they are MADE of air. They aren't carbon based life forms. Therefore, poison designed for such wouldn't effect them...
Melvin the Mediocre 05-21-07, 01:59 PM	My point being though, that stinking cloud is not poison. Cloud kill for example, is poison. It says so in the spell description. Stinking cloud causes nausea which, even in the real world, is not a condition caused by being poisoned. It is usually a result of being revolted (like after hearing or seeing someone vomit), but can also be brought on by many other causes such as illness, motion sickness, and pregnancy. By RAW, the spell is a magical effect, and those creatures that are alive and in its area of effect must save or become nauseated. To me, that is the end of the story. However, if someone is DETERMINED to try to explain magic by real world science (which I think is a severe mistake) you could explain the spell causing nausea by either the weaving/disoriented motion of gas fumes or by the revolting smell, or a million other ways. So if you want to prove that an elemental is immune to stinking cloud you might start by proving that an elemental can neither see nor smell. We know that they can see, so really we could stop right there and say they see the disorienting fumes and must make a save. However, many will argue that the spell name is "Stinking Cloud" and therefore it causes nausea by scent. (Does this mean that expedeous retreat can only be used to retreat?) At any rate, I have never seen any indication that an elemental can not smell. So again I come to the conclusion that elementals are affected by Stinking Cloud. I think a ruling otherwise is rather arbitrary and not easily supported by any rules.
Kursk 05-21-07, 02:54 PM	It says so in the spell description. Stinking cloud causes nausea which, even in the real world, is not a condition caused by being poisoned. Maybe, maybe not, but, it requires a stomach to be nauseated... So, thee question is, do Air elementals have a stomach?
Melvin the Mediocre 05-21-07, 04:10 PM	deleted
Thubby 05-21-07, 04:24 PM	the spell doesnt say you can hold your breath to save yourself, so you cant. spells and abilities with getarounds like that mention them. gassious poisons are still dangerous even if your not breathing, i know the spell isnt poison, but the point is, it can still hurt you, lungs or no. since the spell isnt poison, and elementals arent immune to the effect of the spell (nausia) as far as we know, he is affected
Toloran 05-21-07, 04:37 PM	You also have to keep in mind that some poisonous gasses can still affect you even if you hold your breath. Many poisonous gasses can be absorbed in to the body not only through the lungs but the membrane inside the nose. Case in point: Inhaled Inhaled poisons are usually contained in fragile vials or eggshells. They can be thrown as a ranged attack with a range increment of 10 feet. When it strikes a hard surface (or is struck hard), the container releases its poison. One dose spreads to fill the volume of a 10-foot cube. Each creature within the area must make a saving throw. (Holding one’s breath is ineffective against inhaled poisons; they affect the nasal membranes, tear ducts, and other parts of the body.)
Kursk 05-21-07, 04:44 PM	and elementals arent immune to the effect of the spell (nausia) as far as we know, he is affected Medical Encyclopedia: "Nausea is the sensation of having an urge to vomit. Vomiting is forcing the contents of the stomach up through the esophagus and out of the mouth." So, if you think an air elemental can have this happen, given their anatomy, then it could effect them. I they don't posses the required anatomy then it doesn't. Pretty simple.
Toloran 05-21-07, 06:14 PM	Medical Encyclopedia: "Nausea is the sensation of having an urge to vomit. Vomiting is forcing the contents of the stomach up through the esophagus and out of the mouth." So, if you think an air elemental can have this happen, given their anatomy, then it could effect them. I they don't posses the required anatomy then it doesn't. Pretty simple. In reality, you can't make strange gestures, say a few words, and create a fireball from thin air. Same thing with teleportation. So your reasoning is moot. Elementals aren't immune to nausea and that is that. Now, if you want to house rule otherwise, feel free but the rules say otherwise. Besides: They DO have the proper anatomy, it is just made of air/earth/water/fire/etc. =P
Kursk 05-21-07, 06:25 PM	In reality, you can't make strange gestures, say a few words, and create a fireball from thin air. Same thing with teleportation. So your reasoning is moot. So, if you have a spell that says it makes a persons toes numb you think it would affect an Air elemental? Interesting reasoning indeed. ;)
AtmaWeapon 05-21-07, 07:02 PM	D&D is a permissive ruleset. If the spell does not specifically state you can hold your breath, then you can't. The elemental is effected (because it's not immune to nausea, as listed), and this was a bad call. It doesn't matter if it has a stomach, it doesn't matter if it doesn't breath. If the DM wants to rule you can hold your breath, that's what the fortitude save represents. What's next, can I douse myself in water to save myself from a Produce Flame? Can I protect myself from Lightning Bolt by pounding in some grounding rods?
Toloran 05-21-07, 07:22 PM	So, if you have a spell that says it makes a persons toes numb you think it would affect an Air elemental? Interesting reasoning indeed. ;) Not quite. Since most spells that specifically deal with certain parts of the anatomy tend to specifically say "This ability only works if the target has that bit of anatomy." Case in point: Vorpal weapons. Also, my comment was mostly about injecting reality in to a game. Yes, a lot is based on reality but a lot is based on gameplay reasons instead. Again, feel free to house rule otherwise but when dealing with fantastic creatures it is best to stick to the actual printed rules where you can. And who knows? There are some elementals who do have toes (Elemental Stewards from Complete Psionic for example), maybe Air Elementals have little toes made of whirlwinds on the end of their leg-like appendages =P
DarkNick 05-21-07, 07:49 PM	Maybe a good compromise is to say that holding your breath simply adds +2 to your save? Personally I would say part of the save would involve seeing if you avoided inhaling too many fumes. By RAW elementals are affected as there is nothing that says they arn't. But then one way of looking at it is this is not a physical affect but a magical effect i.e. the affected targets are nauseated 'magically', so it does not matter if they have a stomach or not. Alternatively the bad vapours could be absorbed into the elementals airy form 'sickening' it. The rules don't really say whether an elemental has a stomach or not either... but then the rules do not say you need a stomach to be nauseated - only that you had to be alive. A good debate might be whether you could describe and elemental as alive... My take is that you can't hold your breath to avoid a stinking cloud. Also I would rule that elementals would not be affected - certainly they are things that 'live' but I would not describe them as a 'living creature'.
danielinthewolvesden 05-21-07, 08:34 PM	Maybe a good compromise is to say that holding your breath simply adds +2 to your save? By RAW elementals are affected as there is nothing that says they arn't. My take is that you can't hold your breath to avoid a stinking cloud. . Right, I would give you a +2, but elementals are effected simply becuase nothing says they are not. Thus they are. Ipso facto.
Thubby 05-21-07, 08:41 PM	Medical Encyclopedia: "Nausea is the sensation of having an urge to vomit. Vomiting is forcing the contents of the stomach up through the esophagus and out of the mouth." So, if you think an air elemental can have this happen, given their anatomy, then it could effect them. I they don't posses the required anatomy then it doesn't. Pretty simple. you can have a feeling in a limb you dont have, so you could probably feel nauseous without a stomach. the feeling can originate from your brain instead of the actual stomach on a simular note, the condition is naureated (spelling sucks i know), which basicaly means feeling ill to the point of being unable to act normaly, even if an air elemental cant get nauteous in the clinical sense, i imagine it can be disrupted in a way not unlike nausia
MindLich 05-21-07, 09:30 PM	My point being though, that stinking cloud is not poison. Cloud kill for example, is poison. It says so in the spell description. Stinking cloud causes nausea which, even in the real world, is not a condition caused by being poisoned. It is usually a result of being revolted (like after hearing or seeing someone vomit), but can also be brought on by many other causes such as illness, motion sickness, and pregnancy. By RAW, the spell is a magical effect, and those creatures that are alive and in its area of effect must save or become nauseated. To me, that is the end of the story. However, if someone is DETERMINED to try to explain magic by real world science (which I think is a severe mistake) you could explain the spell causing nausea by either the weaving/disoriented motion of gas fumes or by the revolting smell, or a million other ways. So if you want to prove that an elemental is immune to stinking cloud you might start by proving that an elemental can neither see nor smell. We know that they can see, so really we could stop right there and say they see the disorienting fumes and must make a save. However, many will argue that the spell name is "Stinking Cloud" and therefore it causes nausea by scent. (Does this mean that expedeous retreat can only be used to retreat?) At any rate, I have never seen any indication that an elemental can not smell. So again I come to the conclusion that elementals are affected by Stinking Cloud. I think a ruling otherwise is rather arbitrary and not easily supported by any rules. I. Smell. Munchkin.
ppirilla 05-21-07, 09:49 PM	The effect of stinking clound on an elemental I am not sure of. Holding your breath to avoid it on the other hand is just a flavorful way of succeeding on a Fortitude save.
ATroubledMarco 05-21-07, 09:59 PM	you can have a feeling in a limb you dont have, so you could probably feel nauseous without a stomach. the feeling can originate from your brain instead of the actual stomach That logic is a little flawed. You can feel a limb you have lost because your brain is still wired to expect a limb to be there. A human being cannot feel pain in his tail, or pleasure in his wings, because he never had them. This is moot from RAW rules, but does make your logic suspect.
Toloran 05-21-07, 10:44 PM	That logic is a little flawed. You can feel a limb you have lost because your brain is still wired to expect a limb to be there. A human being cannot feel pain in his tail, or pleasure in his wings, because he never had them. This is moot from RAW rules, but does make your logic suspect. True, but we are also dealing with magic which can do just about whatever it wants :)
Thubby 05-22-07, 12:11 AM	That logic is a little flawed. You can feel a limb you have lost because your brain is still wired to expect a limb to be there. A human being cannot feel pain in his tail, or pleasure in his wings, because he never had them. i could point you to a few crazy people who would disagree, but you have a point. if it can sense the area in and/or around the stomach regon, it can probably feel discomfort there. the spell simply makes it so great as to be debilitating. the spell may disrupt what passes for its' brain to cause a negative sensation. or may penetrate the "skin" and magicaly cause it to feel as though it were going to vomit (since elementals can eat i imagine they can puke)
ATroubledMarco 05-22-07, 12:41 AM	The basic problem is that an elemental has no stomach region in most cases. However, there are cases of elementals that appear to feed off their elements as such. You don't necessarily need as stomach for nausea if you have any method of ingesting materials. A rust monster might experience eating an iron ally besides steel, a folugub might taste charcoal, a joystealer might be overcome as though it had tried to drain the thoughts of undead, etc.
Melvin the Mediocre 05-23-07, 08:41 AM	I. Smell. Munchkin. If following the rules now labels you a munchkin, I accept the title gladly. :P If you are simply name calling for some bizzare reason, then congrats, you called me a name and I'm all choked up. :embarrass In the end I just want my stinking spell to have a point beyond getting to watch all of our adversaries hold their breath. Which is why I asked for anything official showing the effects of not breathing and stinking clouds. As I think about it, this could involve elementals, holding your breath, air genasi, warforged, or any other critter that doesn't breathe.
Kursk 05-23-07, 12:33 PM	The basic problem is that an elemental has no stomach region in most cases. However, there are cases of elementals that appear to feed off their elements as such. You don't necessarily need as stomach for nausea if you have any method of ingesting materials. A rust monster might experience eating an iron ally besides steel, a folugub might taste charcoal, a joystealer might be overcome as though it had tried to drain the thoughts of undead, etc. I agree that if something eats then it would be subject to nausea as it has something akin to a stomach etc., if it doesn't then it doesn't.
sbattisti 05-23-07, 12:53 PM	I think this is ultimately the DM's call. If you require the DM to obey the precise wording (or lack of wording) in the RAW for every ruling, then you're going to have an interesting gaming experience. Either way, this ruling (air elementals can't be nauseated) by the DM doesn't strike me as egregiously AGAINST the rules. It makes logical sense within the game, given the anatomy and so forth. I mean, bottom line, air elementals being immune to stinking cloud passes the "smell test" IMHO. This isn't a ruling I'd feel I was being cheated on. OTOH, on the other subject, I do disagree with the DM's idea that you can just hold your breath, and agree with most of the suggestions above about requiring the person to recognize the spell/effect and make a saving throw, or repeated saving throws to continue holding breath.
Kursk 05-23-07, 01:15 PM	OTOH, on the other subject, I do disagree with the DM's idea that you can just hold your breath, and agree with most of the suggestions above about requiring the person to recognize the spell/effect and make a saving throw, or repeated saving throws to continue holding breath. I think saving throws represent successfully holding breathe or whatever mitigates the effect.
sbattisti 05-23-07, 01:25 PM	I think saving throws represent successfully holding breathe or whatever mitigates the effect. True. To that end, I would say that whether you see the cloud coming or not, you need to make a save, and if you fail the save, you're affected, whether you say you're holding your breath or not.
Phrennzy 05-23-07, 03:24 PM	I think this is ultimately the DM's call. If you require the DM to obey the precise wording (or lack of wording) in the RAW for every ruling, then you're going to have an interesting gaming experience. Either way, this ruling (air elementals can't be nauseated) by the DM doesn't strike me as egregiously AGAINST the rules. It makes logical sense within the game, given the anatomy and so forth. I mean, bottom line, air elementals being immune to stinking cloud passes the "smell test" IMHO. This isn't a ruling I'd feel I was being cheated on. OTOH, on the other subject, I do disagree with the DM's idea that you can just hold your breath, and agree with most of the suggestions above about requiring the person to recognize the spell/effect and make a saving throw, or repeated saving throws to continue holding breath. Agreed. Stinking cloud creates a bank of fog like that created by fog cloud, except that the vapors are nauseating. Living creatures in the cloud become nauseated. Nothing in the Stinking Cloud spell description indicates poison. Using immunity to poison as a defense against Stinking Cloud is a failed argument. From the description, nauseated, in this sense, refers to the D&D meaning: Nauseated: Experiencing stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn. The spell makes your Nauseated. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The 'experiencing stomach distress' can be viewed as simple flavor text, or to make a case for the elemental, indicates that one must have a stomach to be nauseated. The rules do not indicate that you MUST have a stomach to be nauseated. However, ruling that elementals are immune to stinking cloud is not game breaking. Removing all cloud type spells simply because you can hold your breath thru them would be game breaking. The question then brings up holding your breath during gorgon clouds or dragon's breath.
WolfHati 05-23-07, 08:01 PM	The rules are there to make the game world seem self consistent, not the other way around. Basically, if you want to have elementals that can be nauseated, fine, but I wanna know what elemental barf looks like!
txgator 05-23-07, 11:56 PM	Lol! Looks like I'm not the only one who was curios as to what other's thought of my ruling (yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm Melvin's evil DM :D ). After reading this thread, and the one I posted on another forum, I've decided that my ruling for the Air Elemental being immune was fine. While there is nothing that specifically says "Air Elementals are immune to Stinking Cloud", I see enough support text for it. As for the player holding his breath, yeahhhh.... that was a bad call. Had I thought about it, I wouldn't of allowed it and I apologize about that one. But it was spur of the moment. For future reference, I won't be allowing PCs or NPCs to hold their breath in a Stinking Cloud anymore. So the spell hasn't truely lost it's effect. And Melvin now has a new tactic he can use... Step #1: Cast Stinking Cloud. Step #2: Summon Elemental and have it dive into the fray! Step #3: Laugh as the DM pulls his hair out over how quickly you eleminate his carefuly chosen encounter! Step #4: Rinse and repeat. TXGator :cool: