Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeathMagus 12-23-04, 11:23 PM	I have always loved the character type of a Necromancer who uses his powers only for good, and recently designed a sorcerer/cleric character based around summoning undead. My character is Something - neutral. A friend of mine (who happens to favor the more traditional good cleric's view of the undead) claims that using necromantic summoning spells is evil and lowers my alignment if I continue to do it. I've looked all over the 3 core books, but I can't find anything about these spells being evil, at least as far as game mechanics go. I'm I right in saying I can cast necromantic spells on the side of good?
Melpomene 12-23-04, 11:37 PM	::slaps your wrist:: 1.) You aren't summouning undead with necromancy, you're creating. If you summoun a creature, it takes the alignment type of the sumouned creatre. That is, summoun a good creature, it's a good spell. Creating undead is always evil, for full details see threads "How evil is evil?" and "Schools of Magic." 2.) Necromancy other than the spells with the "evil" description are not evil.
DeathMagus 12-23-04, 11:54 PM	::slaps your wrist:: 1.) You aren't summouning undead with necromancy, you're creating. If you summoun a creature, it takes the alignment type of the sumouned creatre. That is, summoun a good creature, it's a good spell. Creating undead is always evil, for full details see threads "How evil is evil?" and "Schools of Magic." 2.) Necromancy other than the spells with the "evil" description are not evil. The "How evil is evil" thread seems to be split down the middle about whether creating/using undead is evil. I personally believe that imbuing the corpse of someone with negetive energy isn't evil, because the negetive energy never has its way - my character will be controlling it the whole time. If I create undead to make a skeleton to save a girl from falling from a cliff, the ENTIRE action was still good, even if the negetive energy didn't WANT to save the girl. It didn't matter, because it had to save her whether it wanted to or not. Raising dead also isn't evil for the following reasons - The spirit isn't effected, except for the fact that it can't be ressurected while the body is animated. That's fine, however, as I can cast a spell to speak to the dead, and ask permission for long-term animation. For short-term, I'll have that body un-animated quickly enough to not hinder resurrection attempts. Melpomene, can you cite a source in the PHB, MM, or DMG that renders creating or using undead to be evil? Or is that just your opinion?
Melpomene 12-23-04, 11:57 PM	The spell Raise Dead has the [evil] descriptor.
Melpomene 12-23-04, 11:58 PM	Also, the mindless undead are listed as NE in the MM, so thier creation births more evil into the world. ::shrug::
DeathMagus 12-24-04, 12:05 AM	The spell Raise Dead has the [evil] descriptor. Some points - 1. I'm looking at the 3.5 PHB, under the "Raise Dead" spell, and the book declares it "Conjuration - Healing" 2. Raise dead is used to revive fallen party members, and thus is generally good. Revived people are not undead, so the spell really has no bearing anyway. 3. Even if raising dead DID create undead, the spell would only be evil if: a) the caster later controlled the undead and b) because the undead would have intelligence, and controlling would be similar to "charm" (evil, because it prevents free will) 4. >Creating undead<, which is the real subject of my post, binds no souls.
DeathMagus 12-24-04, 12:07 AM	The spell "Create Undead" DOES say "evil" in it, but this is referring to the clerical domain of "evil". If I use the spell as a sorcerer (they don't have domains), and I use it for good, why should that "evil" still apply?
DeathMagus 12-24-04, 12:11 AM	Also, the mindless undead are listed as NE in the MM, so thier creation births more evil into the world. ::shrug:: However, what does it matter how much evil there is in the world, if it never gets the chance to actually do evil?
Ryltar Thamior 12-24-04, 12:25 AM	Yet again, we unlock the debate of undead being evil. Consider this-Negative energy is from the elemental (or energy) plane of negative energy. Elements, and elemental creatures are neutral, and as we may consider most undead to be negative elementals (for the sake of arguement), it can be seen that they are neutral. In addition to this, (it may just be a typo), according to either the 3.0 or 3.5 MM or srd, skeletons are neutral. In relation to this, check the alignment section of the phb-it says that non-inteligent creatures cannot have an alignment apart from neutral. Also, in monsters of faerun, there is the Baelnorn-"Lich, Good" is where it is listed, if memory serves (and, Jander Sunstar is a good example of a non-evil vampire). Getting further off topic, as undead are to the negative energy plane...so to are the living to the positive elemental plane-not all good! Admittedly, this undercutts my theory on elementals always being neutral, but it had to be said. Then, let me bring Golems in-ANIMATED things that are basically undead that never lived-also, they are given life by the enslavement of an elemental spirit...and yet, this is not treated as an evil act! It annoys me and a few of the other older players that DnD has been transformed into such a creation of steriotyping by WotC. Admittedly, most necromancers and undead are evil, but creation or animation of undead is clearly less evil than golem creation, but one is evil, and the other is not. I appologise for my ranting.
Braids 12-24-04, 12:51 AM	I don't like consider undead to be evil [But I do...for the Paladin in my group], but I consider creating undead (without the permision of the corpse) to be evil.
Mordmorgan the Mad 12-24-04, 10:49 AM	The spell "Create Undead" DOES say "evil" in it, but this is referring to the clerical domain of "evil". If I use the spell as a sorcerer (they don't have domains), and I use it for good, why should that "evil" still apply? Any spell with the [evil] descriptor is evil. Yes, it does refer to the Evil Domain, but it also refers to the moral aspect of using the spell. Bottom line, using Create Undead is EVIL. However, what does it matter how much evil there is in the world, if it never gets the chance to actually do evil? You're playing with fire here. What happens if an evil cleric manages to wrest control of your undead servants? Then that "harmless evil" you birthed has a very good chance of running rampant and causing a great deal of harm.
Derren S. 12-24-04, 11:03 AM	In addition to this, (it may just be a typo), according to either the 3.0 or 3.5 MM or srd, skeletons are neutral. According to my MM, skelletons are neutral evil, so their very existence is evil and by creating them you are doing evil. Yes, you may controll them and use them for nonevil deeds, but the merly existence of this skelleton is evil and so their creation can't be good no matter for which things they are used. When they are used for (many) good things it would be neutral in the end, but when not the evil act of creating them stands uncountered.
AesirRaven 12-24-04, 11:09 AM	In addition to this, (it may just be a typo), according to either the 3.0 or 3.5 MM or srd, skeletons are neutral. My 3.5 MM says all skeletons, regardless of base creature, are "always neutral evil". Same with zombies. A point about Raise Dead, Mel: Raise Dead doesn't create undead, it restores the dead to life. You might be thinking of Magic: the Gathering. Animate Dead, however, is listed as "Necromancy [Evil]" in the 3.5 PHB, which is consistent with the 3.5 MM alignment given for skeletons and zombies (the most common undead for a necromancer to animate). Apparently current (and consistent) opinion from WotC is that negative energy is inherently evil, therefore imbuing the dead with it is an act of evil. Ends don't justify means in D&D, it's rather unambiguous that way. If you step away from the Core books, however, I believe there are good variants of "undeath". I don't own Exalted Deeds, so I can't be sure.
DeathMagus 12-24-04, 11:53 AM	I think we can all agree, however, that as long as all (evil) undead summoned are immediately taken control of, and used for a good purpose, the end result is neutral.
Mordmorgan the Mad 12-24-04, 01:28 PM	I think we can all agree, however, that as long as all (evil) undead summoned are immediately taken control of, and used for a good purpose, the end result is neutral. Uh, no. Slice it any way you like: creating undead is evil. Controling undead, howerver, isn't inherently evil.
DeathMagus 12-24-04, 01:53 PM	Uh, no. Slice it any way you like: creating undead is evil. Controling undead, howerver, isn't inherently evil. Exactly - Creating undead is evil, but then using them for good balances the whole job to neutral. Unless, of course, you do very little good, but still create a whole lot of undead.
Mordmorgan the Mad 12-24-04, 02:00 PM	Exactly - Creating undead is evil, but then using them for good balances the whole job to neutral. Unless, of course, you do very little good, but still create a whole lot of undead. I think you're seeing Controling (not inherently evil) and Raising (inherently evil) as a single act. They are two seperate acts, one of which is undeniably evil. Looking at things from the "ends justify the means" standpoint (which you clearly are) I suppose the creation of undead could be forgiven by a good deity (as long as the deity wasn't specifically dedicated to the destruction of undead and the undead are being put to work for the forces of good). In the end, it's really up to the DM. In my game, creating undead intentionally (even in the persuit of good) is evil.
Kadasbrass 12-24-04, 07:38 PM	Generally creating undead is an act of evil, but I can see an 'semi' good necromancer... Their very rare, and most wouldn't use the creating undead aspect as much... But I can see them using the rest of their necromatic powers for good. At best he could be Chaotic Good, since necromancy isn't accepted in must good societys a necromancer couldn't be lawful good since he's breaking the accepted traditions of soceity.
DeathMagus 12-24-04, 10:44 PM	Generally creating undead is an act of evil, but I can see an 'semi' good necromancer... Their very rare, and most wouldn't use the creating undead aspect as much... But I can see them using the rest of their necromatic powers for good. At best he could be Chaotic Good, since necromancy isn't accepted in must good societys a necromancer couldn't be lawful good since he's breaking the accepted traditions of soceity. Exactly
Ryltar Thamior 12-25-04, 12:41 AM	Erm... if people remember my rather in(s)ane on this thread...about the nature of positive / negative energy, and its relation to creatures of either type of energy (which is to say-undead are "elementals" of negative energy, and living are also "elementals" of positive energy)... I have proof that both forms of energy are Neutral! Manual of the Planes-pages 168-169-Energon Both energons are listed as 'ALWAYS NEUTRAL'-as these are the "exemplars" of the relevent planes, anything involving either of these energies is by default neutral. This is negated by individual characteristics of the monster (the diet of the vampire, and the ritual of the Lich), but still, it is said on p.g. 88 of the phb that stuff 'incapable of moral action are neutral rather than good or evil.' -sound like a mindless "automaton" to you? Perhaps the alignmennt of mindless undead should be replaced with LN-they follow orders unquestioningly, and are neither good or evil. Yet again, I appologise for the ranting.
Ryltar Thamior 12-25-04, 01:41 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=210706 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=218772 both of these threads aid my earlier statements to a degree.
Melpomene 12-26-04, 07:54 PM	Generally creating undead is an act of evil, but I can see an 'semi' good necromancer... Their very rare, and most wouldn't use the creating undead aspect as much... But I can see them using the rest of their necromatic powers for good. At best he could be Chaotic Good, since necromancy isn't accepted in must good societys a necromancer couldn't be lawful good since he's breaking the accepted traditions of soceity. Sorry to latch onto your post, it just struck me as I read it. Creating undead is *not* a prerequisite for being a necromancer. Necromancers can live long, happy lives without ever expending an onyx gem. Alternately, evokers, illusionists, and any other type of mage who chose not to give up necromancy can also raise these things. Necromancy, as a discipline, is not interlocked intrinsically with the creation of undead.
Vaalingrade Ashland 12-26-04, 10:03 PM	Any spell with the [evil] descriptor is evil. Yes, it does refer to the Evil Domain, but it also refers to the moral aspect of using the spell. Bottom line, using Create Undead is EVIL. This tribute is... False Any spell with the [evil] descriptor is cast at +1 caster level by a cleric with the evil domain. Period. Nowhere in Core does it mention the morality of the spells.
Mordmorgan the Mad 12-26-04, 10:08 PM	Nowhere in Core does it mention the morality of the spells.That's because the game designers [wrongly] assumed that most people who play this game aren't idiots. At what point does it fail to register with you that a spell with the Evil descriptor is evil?
Melpomene 12-26-04, 10:08 PM	The entire alignment thing in D&D is ::holds up profire ring:: rather vague. There is no "You backsassed a Pelorian Angel, +4 Dark Side points gained, you shift to NE." Evil descriptor is as good a yardstick as any. ::shrug, but quickly readies profire ring again::
Vaalingrade Ashland 12-26-04, 10:18 PM	That's because the game designers [wrongly] assumed that most people who play this game aren't idiots. At what point does it fail to register with you that a spell with the Evil descriptor is evil? Because that isn't the case. A descriptor is a mechanic. Do you honestly believe that casting Holy Word (a spell that will slaughter 80% of commoners) is a good act? Please.
Melpomene 12-26-04, 10:49 PM	Just to say that I'd like to think of commoners as having slightly more goodbound alignments than a 20%. ::shrug::
DrMorganes 12-26-04, 11:04 PM	I have always loved the character type of a Necromancer who uses his powers only for good, and recently designed a sorcerer/cleric character based around summoning undead. My character is Something - neutral. A friend of mine (who happens to favor the more traditional good cleric's view of the undead) claims that using necromantic summoning spells is evil and lowers my alignment if I continue to do it. I've looked all over the 3 core books, but I can't find anything about these spells being evil, at least as far as game mechanics go. There are only 9 Necromatic spells in the SRD which carry the "Evil" descriptor. Fully one third of these are the undead "summoning" spells: Animate Dead, Create Undead, and Create Undead (Greater). Essentially, most cultures consider messing with the remains of the dearly departed to be disrespectful at best and downright diabolic at worst. Toss in that the mores put forth in the core rules deny that the end justifies the means - that is, the morality of an act is defined by the act and not by the intent of the one performing the act - and yes, animating undead for any reason is an evil act. Further supporting this idea, every undead creature possess an evil alignment and an active hatred of the living. Uncontrolled undead will, by their nature, kill every living thing which comes near. They do not kill because they must to survive - undead are sustained by negative energy and will exist until destroyed - but because they want to kill. Another item here: characters who become undead are not subject to spells like Raise Dead even if their bodies remain separate from their undead forms. The souls of the undead are trapped in the state of unlife, and are generally viewed to be suffering. I'm I right in saying I can cast necromantic spells on the side of good? As long as you're casting the OTHER 51 spells in the School of Necromancy, yes. The SRD (in the Wizard class write-up) defines Necromancy as "Spells that manipulate, create, or destroy life or life force". Why the Cure line of spells have been moved to Conjuration (Spells that bring creatures or materials to the caster) is beyond me, and in my campaigns I have moved them back into Necromancies where they belong. Something else to consider: evil people rarely consider themselves to be evil. They always have a justification for their acts; they always judge their "intentions" to be good. The road to Hell is, after all, paved with good intentions... Your PC may truly feel that the undead he creates are soulless hunks of decaying flesh to be used at his whim for the benefit of the living, and feel confusion at the townsfolk's refusal to accept his "helpers". (Zombies used to mine valuabe ore in an earthquake-prone area, for instance. Who cares if they get buried by a cave-in?) In the black-and-white morality of the core rules, his intentions are irrelevant. The creation of undead is evil, and so the PC treads a slippery slope by regularly creating them. He may not actually slide into an evil alignment (subject to his other actions and your DM's ruling) and those who know him may eventually come to a wary acceptance of his "helpers", but the general population will very much consider the PC and his actions to be abhorrant.
Vaalingrade Ashland 12-26-04, 11:07 PM	Non-player characters generally lack the drive and commitment to have a moral alginment. More ofen, they have ethical alignments, rangeing from LN, to CN. So: 20% Good 20% Evil 60% Neutral
Melpomene 12-26-04, 11:09 PM	Please, see my writings in the "Schools of Magic" thread in the Dieties forum for my explaination of conjuration as healing. Give it a bump while you're there, it needs it what with the three "necromancy=evil?" threads poking around.
DrMorganes 12-26-04, 11:10 PM	One more idea: The computer rpg Arcanum (http://arcanum.sierra.com/us/) divides Necromancy into two separate schools: White Necromancy and Black Necromancy. White Necromancies are those which heal (in D&D this would include the Cure line of spells and various resurrections), while Black Necromancies harm (Inflict, etc). Incidentally, however, summoning Undead still falls soundly under Black Necromancy...
Mordmorgan the Mad 12-26-04, 11:10 PM	Do you honestly believe that casting Holy Word (a spell that will slaughter 80% of commoners) is a good act? Please.Actually, I do. Casting Holy Word is a good act. Using it to slaughter innocent (whether good or not) commoners for no reason, however, isn't good. I never said that using a skeleton to rescue a child from a fire was evil. That act could (and probably would) be considered good. What isn't good is raising that skeleton in the first place.
Melpomene 12-26-04, 11:13 PM	There was a rather heated, rather flaming debate which argued the alignment of most humanoids. The overall feeling was it was somewhere around NG (helpful, friendly villagers) or LG (go to work, don't make waves). Most of the other alignments were either racial or classed. So, I peg good around 30% or so, maybe more. Again, not that it really matters.
Melpomene 12-26-04, 11:15 PM	One more idea: The computer rpg Arcanum (http://arcanum.sierra.com/us/) divides Necromancy into two separate schools: White Necromancy and Black Necromancy. White Necromancies are those which heal (in D&D this would include the Cure line of spells and various resurrections), while Black Necromancies harm (Inflict, etc). Incidentally, however, summoning Undead still falls soundly under Black Necromancy... Again, it depends on how you view the schools and thier function, and what, precisely, necromancy is doing. Read my stuff. Now. It's good for your soul.
DrMorganes 12-26-04, 11:23 PM	Please, see my writings in the "Schools of Magic" thread in the Dieties forum for my explaination of conjuration as healing. Give it a bump while you're there, it needs it what with the three "necromancy=evil?" threads poking around. I read your posts, Melpomene (still on Page 1 by the way), and I can't say I agree with most of what you said. Suffice to say that it comes down to how one defines the influences of the Positive and Negative Material Planes on the planes, and whether the metaphysics of the Prime Material extend to the Outer Planes as well. In essence it comes down to the DM's opinion. To prevent further derailment, I'll agree to disagree in this discussion. Edit: My last two posts were made in rapid succession. I didn't see your reply prior to the second post. I agree, it's good stuff - I just don't agree with it ;)
Joni-san 12-26-04, 11:28 PM	One could alway ask if the DM could House-rule the creation of Undead to be Neutral (and non-intelligent undead should thus be Neutral too) :thinks: NPC Alignment: Depends on the world I guess. For Human commoners it would be something like this IMO: G: 5-10% N: 80-90% E:5-10%
Melpomene 12-26-04, 11:44 PM	I read your posts, Melpomene (still on Page 1 by the way), and I can't say I agree with most of what you said. Suffice to say that it comes down to how one defines the influences of the Positive and Negative Material Planes on the planes, and whether the metaphysics of the Prime Material extend to the Outer Planes as well. In essence it comes down to the DM's opinion. To prevent further derailment, I'll agree to disagree in this discussion. Edit: My last two posts were made in rapid succession. I didn't see your reply prior to the second post. I agree, it's good stuff - I just don't agree with it ;) Well, glad you read it anyway, and are agreeing to disagree. ...and remember, whenever the universe/in-game metaphysics/flavour-vs-RAW/laws of the "real" world don't all seem to be in line, blame it on a Yogoloth.
Puskara 12-27-04, 02:21 AM	I think we can all agree, however, that as long as all (evil) undead summoned are immediately taken control of, and used for a good purpose, the end result is neutral. This is just like saying that it is neutral to stab a helpless opponent in the gut as long as you heal them afterward. Creating undead creatures is evil. It is expressly spelled out in several WotC books that it is evil. If you commanded an undead servant to perform a beneficial action out of a sense of altruism then that action would be good. This does not make creating or conguring the dead a good act. The two acts are totally separate. Neutral is not what you get when you add equal amounts of good and evil. Neutrality is when you are driven by motives outside the norm of good and evil as defined by the rules and your DM. Puskara
XArchangelX 12-27-04, 02:19 PM	FYI, from the PHB3.5 Create Undead A much more potent spell than Animate Dead, this evil spell allows you to create more powerful sorts of undead.... It says in the description that it is an evil spell. Also, the "ends justify the means" argument doesn't work here. In BoVD and BoED, they use the example of torture for this purpose. Just because you saved a bunch of folks from an invading army by torturing someone, doesn't make torture ok. Saving a little kid by creating undead are separate actions, and should be judged accordingly. I would just like to heartily concur with Dr Morganes posts on this topic.
Mordmorgan the Mad 12-27-04, 02:23 PM	Nowhere in Core does it mention the morality of the spells. FYI, from the PHB3.5 Create Undead A much more potent spell than Animate Dead, this evil spell allows you to create more powerful sorts of undead.... I'd like to thank XArchangelX for finding that.
ChaosEvoker 12-27-04, 05:29 PM	FYI, from the PHB3.5 It says in the description that it is an evil spell. Also, the "ends justify the means" argument doesn't work here. In BoVD and BoED, they use the example of torture for this purpose. Just because you saved a bunch of folks from an invading army by torturing someone, doesn't make torture ok. Saving a little kid by creating undead are separate actions, and should be judged accordingly. I would just like to heartily concur with Dr Morganes posts on this topic. If any of you have seen the most recent version of Sparticus which is a movie (in 2 parts) then there is aperfect example of using evil for a good purpose. (Sparticus crucifies a Roman general to put up as an example to the Roman Army that is trapping them at the coast) CREATING undead is evil. (Forcibly trapping an unwilling subjects soul into a rotting corpse is pretty freaking evil) While you may be able to have good intentions and to do good with the undead you create, the act of creating undead itself is evil. (See the novel/movie Mary Shelly's Frankenstein for more details)
Vaalingrade Ashland 12-27-04, 06:42 PM	Use of the BoVD automatically renders an argument invalid. As for the flavor text of the spell, it still does not mean the use of the spell is evil, and more than using an intelegent evil sword is evil.
XArchangelX 12-27-04, 10:07 PM	A little more from the PHB3.5 for your edification. Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment,... I don't quite understand why an official WotC text would be grounds to discount an argument, but whatever. Something like this would be the DM's call, and you can play it any way that is fun for you. I certainly don't want to tell you how to play. But no reasonable person can pretend that the spell Create Dead isn't an evil spell. Even if you think that the [Evil] in the descriptor section is just for the Domain, to get that domain you have to worship evil gods. You are bringing an evil being into existence, giving it life on our plane. Even if you control it, which isn't guaranteed, and make it do good things, the creature you created is inherently evil. There is a reason you don't see create undead on the spell list of any celestial creature. DnD is a world that has Good Gods actively trying to bring light to the world, and Evil Gods actively trying bring night. It has been intentionally made into a black and white type moral universe due to the many interesting moral problems that arise when when each side has no gray areas to pretend to inhabit. That is also why, as far as game mechanics go, alignment plays a real factor in the spells and other magic available. You couldn't use an intelligent evil sword without the proper alignment, it would recognize you as good, and tell you to bugger off.
Trevan0 12-27-04, 10:54 PM	It is Vaalingrade Ashland's opinion that WotC should not determine good and evil in the game, hence the invalidity of Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness. But by the book itself, Animate Dead and it's friends are evil. My own opinion is that this should be the DM's call.