Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ItaraKoturo 07-27-06, 05:40 PM	I'm wondering if you guys can think of any way in which the following situation could be reconciled. After handling a (trapped) container and opening it, a horned devil (CR 16 in the Monster Manual) was summoned into the middle of the room. We're a party of 8th and 9th-level characters who promptly wet our pants and then do our best to squash the fiend. It manages to kill one of us in a single full-round attack, but a couple chaos hammers and a slow effect later we beat it to a pulp in the corner of the room. When later confronting the DM about why we were facing a CR 16 creature (so high up for some of us that the DMG doesn't give an exp reward value for fighting one), she claimed that she'd reduced its hit dice by 3. When asked if she had appropriately modified its special qualities or abilities to reflect that, she admitted that she hadn't. Now, thankfully, the player of the character who got utterly chunked didn't mind terribly much as it is giving him a chance to try something new, but if it were me I would be furious. I'm also worried that a situation like this may happen again. Any suggestions on how to deal with this problem?
Immric 07-27-06, 05:50 PM	Your group faced a cr 16 creature with only one causality? It doesn't seem like an overwhelming challenge for you; maybe your DM knew your capabilities and wanted to give your characters a real challenge?
ItaraKoturo 07-27-06, 05:56 PM	Your group faced a cr 16 creature with only one causality? It doesn't seem like an overwhelming challenge for you; maybe your DM knew your capabilities and wanted to give your characters a real challenge? I can understand a real challenge. I can't understand a monster appearing and instantly slaughtering the nearest character in a single full-round action. That wasn't a challenge for him, that was just his character getting killed.
coomber 07-27-06, 06:05 PM	Sounds to me like you already dealt with it. If one of your characters got killed, and you made the point to your DM that the enemy was not nerfed enough, hopefully she is smart enough to take all of that on board and learn from her mistakes.
Kradlo 07-27-06, 06:17 PM	This is a problem you often see with novice Game Masters. They'll throw an encounter at the party that is substantially above the Challenge Rating of the group, even taking into consideration the number of characters and relative power. Then, in an attempt to compensate, they'll lower some particular feature or two, essentially watering down the creature. It's a rookie mistake. I recently had a 5th level fighter face a Werewolf Lord (CR 14 encounter). The GM watered down the creature by ignoring its damage reduction, but even so the thing had a +25 attack modifier. My fighter used Combat Expertise (full -5 attack for +5 AC) and fought defensively, and the thing would still hit her on a roll of 3 or more. Two hits and she was down and dying. My advice is not to take offense at your GM, as this is a learning curve. Tell him that it's much better to stick to the CR of the group (give or take) than to throw overpowered opponents at you and then nerf them to compensate. As for the dead character, you might suggest that a scroll of resurrection might be found (hint, hint), or some other solution that will restore the slain comrade. Getting killed in a fair fight is one thing, but being worked by a monster way above your EL isn't cool. But again, do so nicely, because your GM is learning the ropes. A little patience and understanding go a long way.
Immric 07-27-06, 06:18 PM	Oh I see, I didn't realise the full attack was in the first round, or even worse surprise round, that, I do tend to agree, is a little overwhelming. I don't think the issue is the high CR of the creature rather possible Meta gaming by your DM. It's very difficult to control so many different creatures and have them act realistically. For example having the recently imprisoned Demon flat footed for the first round while it got its bearings would have been a better equalizer. Allowing the party to buff/prepare. The obvious tactic for the creature was to do a full attack on the closest character in order to even the odds. However this would require that it knew what was going on in the room before its release. As a DM I often have to remind myself that a round is only six seconds and only so much information can be acquired in that length of time. The same effect could have been acchived with a Kobold with a wand with some save or die spell. Also a trap could have had the same outcome but with traps you should have some forwarning, and I think thats your problem in this situation.
Kursk 07-27-06, 09:29 PM	Sh-t happens. Consider that all the encounters for the day were rolled into one and move on. ECL's are guidelines. Some days are easier than others. That's the risk of adventuring. Probably why most people don't adventure and most adventurers retire before reaching mega levels. Sounds like maybe time to retire?
Ashok_Lal 07-27-06, 11:46 PM	You came out the other side to tell the tale. (Well most of you.) With so many XP that it goes of the chart. That which does not kill you only makes you stronger One might sugest that a party of 9th level charicters that beat a 16CR creature are overpowered & need to be chalanged. I'm willing to wager that if the Horned Devil did'nt get the first attack it would not have gotten an attack at all. All the same you should not be complaining you should be braging
Feriin 07-28-06, 12:36 AM	My views.. I think the only mistake the GM made was reducing its Hit Dice. Does it really make sense for a group of adventurers to continiously run into a monster or group of monsters that they should be able to beat no questions asked? NO. Yeah I would probably be a little upset as a player, but when you look at it in a different way. Stuff like this should be expected to happen once in a great while. My players know when I make a campaign up I might put in a high level wizard that like to go around town in realitivly poor dress , while doing errands for the day. They also know that when there is a trap that they find it might be beyond them. I might put in a Dragon that is a Great Wyrm in a dungeon that is realitively low level, that doesn't mean they have to fight it. Infact I award them exp if they DON'T. I award them more exp if they talk to it. In short your group lived , 1 person bought it, get over it. I asume your group has the ablity to rezz people now?
ItaraKoturo 07-28-06, 05:56 AM	Sh-t happens. Consider that all the encounters for the day were rolled into one and move on. ECL's are guidelines. Some days are easier than others. That's the risk of adventuring. Probably why most people don't adventure and most adventurers retire before reaching mega levels. Sounds like maybe time to retire? Uh, no. This is a game, remember? The DM screwed up with calculating CRs, that's pretty much all there is to it.
ItaraKoturo 07-28-06, 05:59 AM	You came out the other side to tell the tale. (Well most of you.) With so many XP that it goes of the chart. That which does not kill you only makes you stronger Our DM also does not handle experience properly. We didn't receive more than 1,500 exp apiece. My 8th level character should have received over 6,000 exp from that fight alone. One might sugest that a party of 9th level charicters that beat a 16CR creature are overpowered & need to be chalanged. I'm willing to wager that if the Horned Devil did'nt get the first attack it would not have gotten an attack at all. Not so. Our characters' equipment is fairly low-key (not a lot of magic item producing capacity in Ravenloft) and we aren't combat-centric by any stretch. We got very lucky with a slow effect, and chaos hammer will eventually drill a devil into the ground.
ItaraKoturo 07-28-06, 06:04 AM	Does it really make sense for a group of adventurers to continiously run into a monster or group of monsters that they should be able to beat no questions asked? NO. Certainly not, I agree. However there should never be a situation in which a character is killed without giving them a chance of survival. Yeah I would probably be a little upset as a player, but when you look at it in a different way. Stuff like this should be expected to happen once in a great while. Maybe if D&D attempted to perfectly imitate a fantasy reality, but it doesn't. D&D is a game designed to challenge a group of players - not kill their characters indiscriminately. My players know when I make a campaign up I might put in a high level wizard that like to go around town in realitivly poor dress , while doing errands for the day. They also know that when there is a trap that they find it might be beyond them. I might put in a Dragon that is a Great Wyrm in a dungeon that is realitively low level, that doesn't mean they have to fight it. Infact I award them exp if they DON'T. I award them more exp if they talk to it. That's wonderful, but a trap that summons a demon and kills the nearest character in the first round of combat isn't a challenge - it's just murder. In short your group lived , 1 person bought it, get over it. I asume your group has the ablity to rezz people now? Nope. Our DM has repeatedly shown us that resurrecting characters is a good way to get beaten up on when the "resurrected" character turns out to be possessed by a demonic entity. Such is Ravenloft, I suppose.
Newpaintbrush 07-28-06, 07:09 AM	Man, I totally disagree. 1. That's life. If you want to go around opening mysterious containers, you have to expect some nasty surprises. That's why it's called "adventuring", not "paperpushing". 2. And you even ended up BEATING the monster. 3. I wouldn't even have taken off any Hit Dice from the monster. -- If a DM ends up being controlled by the players, which is what you're trying to do, it's not gonna be fun for anyone. BOO. The only constraint a DM should observe is not to make any encounter for FIRST THROUGH THIRD LEVEL CHARACTERS 1) fast, 2) deadly, and 3) not open to negotiation Why? Because at first through third level, characters will probably not have the resources to run away. If you throw fifteen enraged owlbears at a party of third level characters, they will all die. The owlbears will outrun any horses, drag the player characters down, and eat them (because owlbears just don't listen to polite requests). BUT once you get to NINTH LEVEL, your DM SHOULD make some fast and deadly and unreasonable encounters, in which you have to spend a lot of resources JUST GETTING THE HELL AWAY. Otherwise, players just concentrate on purely combat oriented spells, skills, and feats, and have this ATTITUDE that no MATTTER WHAT, they can go around KICkING ANYTHING'S ASS. Which is very unhealthy.
Fatalis_902 07-28-06, 08:01 AM	I have to agree with the OP on this one. That Dm was slightly out of line. An occasional encounter somewhere between 2-4 levels higher than the party is fine. A trap that will kill you instantly once it is sprung is fine, because you usually get a save for traps. But an enccounter that is nearly double their level is just plain wrong. There is a good Save My Game article that this DM should read. It's in the archives, clled "Party Out of Bounds!". It's a great article that explains how to make challencing encounters for big parties.
Kursk 07-28-06, 11:34 AM	Uh, no. This is a game, remember? The DM screwed up with calculating CRs, that's pretty much all there is to it. Uh, no. Having every encounter be a guaranteed win makes for very boring play. Play in real campaign sometime and you'll find it quite exciting.
Mikal 07-28-06, 01:34 PM	A REAL campaign gives full experience for a viable encounter. 1,500 xp vs. a CR 16 creature is rot. Facing something that's CR 16 at level 9 is also pretty cheesy, if played by a smart DM
Kursk 07-28-06, 01:52 PM	A REAL campaign gives full experience for a viable encounter. 1,500 xp vs. a CR 16 creature is rot. Facing something that's CR 16 at level 9 is also pretty cheesy, if played by a smart DM Agree with the XP aspect. Cheesy? Don't know why this would be. In years of playing I've faced worse. Didn't always survive but that's life, er D&D.
jasper 07-28-06, 02:23 PM	ok sounds like mistakes on both sides of the screen. One even if Dm did down grade the monster she didn't do enought. Second not giving out correct xp or near to correct amount. For the players Run Away is always an option, you could wish your dead pc back. Note I always allow for Rez. Also I don't think is murder to wax a pc in one round. Would you complain if your pc missed his dc and fell into a pit trap which has long rusty nails at bottom , which maxes out and kills the pc?
ItaraKoturo 07-28-06, 02:28 PM	Running away was not an option in this particular encounter. The horned devil was summoned in the midst of a populated barony, complete with peasant workers. Running away would not only have resulted in the destruction of the players' base, but the death of countless innocents. To boot, the DM has stated that it was her intention for us to fight the creature. It is plainly obvious that she screwed up with calculating the CR. No more "that's life, deal with it". First, this is a game, designed for the players and DM to enjoy themselves. Second, even a harsh DM should never make an encounter at near double your party's level and expect you to fight it out and win.
Kursk 07-28-06, 03:17 PM	Running away was not an option in this particular encounter. I see your thought process here. However, I don't care if a DM WANTS us to fight s/g. If I think I'm going to get killed and don't want to, I run. This is of course not the case if your DM would them act like a child and "punish" you for not allowing him to control your PC. If that is the case it is time to find another DM...
Nova Fujit 07-28-06, 03:57 PM	If your 9th level party was able to defeat it, then it was watered down a ton. Which charactor was one rounded by the said horned devil. (wizard rogue...ect) And was I hearing something about a full attack on a surprise round? (for the record we had a similar situation with a hellfire wyrm in a large town with the queens castle in it...we ran =D however the other objects of the situation were different)
ItaraKoturo 07-29-06, 05:33 AM	If your 9th level party was able to defeat it, then it was watered down a ton. No, it wasn't. Its hit point total was reduced by twenty or so (still well above 100 hp) and its attack bonus was dropped by three. Please note that these changes might drop its effective CR by 1. Maybe. Its fear effect, special qualities and attacks-per-round were unchanged, and as any experienced DM will tell you it is attacks and things like DR and constant fear effects that give a monster its challenge. Which charactor was one rounded by the said horned devil. (wizard rogue...ect) A wizard. The class is irrelevant, though. The attack bonus was high enough that he could have hit any of us with all the attacks, and would have dropped anyone with a d8 hit die (and outright killed d6s and d4s). Simply put, this was not a balanced encounter by any stretch. And was I hearing something about a full attack on a surprise round? There was no surprise round. The horned devil simply out-initiatived the wizard who was within five feet.
DM Zoc 07-29-06, 10:12 AM	If this encounter shows anything, it is that the CR system is something of a joke. By the rules, the party deserves no experience because they obviously had the monster tied up and were sneak attacking it with a ballista, or something. As a player, I know that there are times the party can take down pretty much anything, and I know there are times we should flee from something much "weaker" than us. This is where the specifics of each character matter much more than just the fact that there were six of you and you were level nine. In this case, you had the right spell at hand and you managed to win out, and you shouldn't be penalized for it, but the DMG clearly states that you were doing something fishy and you should get no credit for it. So you have to decide whether you want everything by the book, or whether you want to treat the book as some loose guidelines to be interpreted responsibly.
Derren S. 07-29-06, 01:28 PM	No, it wasn't. Its hit point total was reduced by twenty or so (still well above 100 hp) and its attack bonus was dropped by three. Please note that these changes might drop its effective CR by 1. Maybe. Its fear effect, special qualities and attacks-per-round were unchanged, and as any experienced DM will tell you it is attacks and things like DR and constant fear effects that give a monster its challenge. When this is all then your group is way overpowered which means that the devil was an appropriate encounter for you, if it wasn't more people would have died don't you think so? Stop beeing a crybaby. When you manage to overcom SR 28 at lvl 9 easily don't wonder that you get to fight stronger monsters which actually present a threat to you instead of cannon fodder. A wizard. The class is irrelevant, though. The attack bonus was high enough that he could have hit any of us with all the attacks, and would have dropped anyone with a d8 hit die (and outright killed d6s and d4s). Simply put, this was not a balanced encounter by any stretch. There was no surprise round. The horned devil simply out-initiatived the wizard who was within five feet. As I said above it was a balanced encounter considering the groups power. And that a wizard gets killed when full attacked is normal, get used to it. And as initative was rolled normally there was nothing unfair about it. It seems to me that the DM until now was much to soft to you and now you cry because you don't get everything on a silver platter anymore.
Kradlo 07-29-06, 01:35 PM	Challenge Ratings are a basic guide to match the level of the encounter to the party. The objective is to have an encounter that is challenging, but not impossible to overcome. A good rule of thumb for encounters is one that requires the player characters to use about 20% of their resources to overcome it. That's from page 49 of the DMG. As a GM, you have an entire universe at your disposal. You can throw anything at your players, but should you? A GM that decides that the party should turn tail and run from an encounter is railroading the players. He's put them into a situation where they have only one viable option, and that option isn't available for the wizard that got gutted like a trout in the first round simply because the horned devil beat him on initiative. I'm not saying that every person or creature the PCs meet should be easy meat for them. Some encounters may be too tough to fight, but there should be another way to overcome that challenge. A dragon may want the answer to a riddle, or he may want the PCs to tell him a story. Keeping the CR of the encounters at or near the level of the party is the way to go. The encounters will be challenging, and sometimes the PCs will lose someone in the fight. The PCs may even lose the fight altogether, and may have to run. But at least they have a fighting chance, and if they play their cards right, they're likely to win. If as a GM you feel you have to overwhelm and humiliate your players, you're heading down the wrong path.
Louist 07-29-06, 02:48 PM	A couple things I'm thinking. 1) Yes, everyone can see that the demon had a high CR for facing your party, accept that and move on. It seems like the player who actualy lost the character has. 2) The rules are there to help guide the DM, but the DM is capable of going in any direction she wants when it comes to such things as encounters. If she threw a CR 16 at you, well, as many have already said, that's "life." The EXP problem, though, is a real problem that should be adressed. 3) If the game becomes so formulaic that every encounter is only mildly dangerous, the game loses its risk aspect and isn't even worth playing anymore. If the DM only prepares perfectly tailored and obstacles that the party can always overcome, why do you even need the DM anymore? The players can just decide what you want to fight amongst themselves. The real reason the DM is there? To suprise you. Sometimes with unhappy, deadly suprises. 4) The party whooped the demon. So a character went down off the bat. Sounds more like the demon got lucky than the party. So learn to roll with the punches. Your characters wouldn't know what a CR is, and likely aren't spending their time raging at the gods over the loss of a friend, why should you?
ItaraKoturo 07-30-06, 05:33 PM	If this encounter shows anything, it is that the CR system is something of a joke. By the rules, the party deserves no experience because they obviously had the monster tied up and were sneak attacking it with a ballista, or something. Sorry, what? The CR system works very well in my opinion. What did you mean by "the party deserves no experience"? By the rules, we deserve a lot of experience, so much that the rules leave the exact amount up to the GM because the encounter level was so unconventionally high. As a player, I know that there are times the party can take down pretty much anything, and I know there are times we should flee from something much "weaker" than us. This is where the specifics of each character matter much more than just the fact that there were six of you and you were level nine. In this case, you had the right spell at hand and you managed to win out, and you shouldn't be penalized for it, but the DMG clearly states that you were doing something fishy and you should get no credit for it. No, the DMG states that the DM needs to carefully consider how much experience to award the party because of the ridiculous encounter level. When this is all then your group is way overpowered which means that the devil was an appropriate encounter for you, if it wasn't more people would have died don't you think so? No, if we hadn't had a single extremely luck SR roll the entire party would have been murdered. Stop beeing a crybaby. When you manage to overcom SR 28 at lvl 9 easily don't wonder that you get to fight stronger monsters which actually present a threat to you instead of cannon fodder. I suggest you hold your tongue before you step onto ground you aren't familiar with. This party has less equipment than it should and is made up of (largely) non-combat-centric characters. We aren't overpowered by any stretch. We have had significant problems with encounters of appropriate challenge ratings. We barely managed to make it out of this one alive. In fact, one of my concerns is that the DM will make the mistake of assuming we can take more such encounters because we were able to beat this one, without realizing that we were only extremely lucky. My request was for advice on how to deal with the DM. 1) Yes, everyone can see that the demon had a high CR for facing your party, accept that and move on. It seems like the player who actualy lost the character has. Not just high - 8 levels higher. And yes, the player who lost the character had moved on because he was getting tired of that character. However, his next character was killed this last week because the DM decided to ad hoc give the BBEG a Flamestrike that he couldn't, by the rules, cast. I'm not asking for you guys to judge whether or not the DM is actually screwing up. Myself and the others in my group have already done that at length. I'm asking for suggestions on how to deal with the problem. 4) The party whooped the demon. So a character went down off the bat. Sounds more like the demon got lucky than the party. Please see above. Again, since you guys aren't familiar with the specifics of the encounter itself I'm not asking for you to judge the DM's decision. I'm asking how one would go about dealing with the problem.
DM Zoc 07-30-06, 05:53 PM	Maybe I just don't see what the problem is. There was a powerful demon and it almost killed you. Those are the breaks. The DM realizes that it was a bit much, and will probably not do that much in the future. The end.
Derren S. 07-30-06, 05:53 PM	Then why don't you post the specifics then so we can see if there really is a problem.
Kradlo 07-30-06, 06:55 PM	Your GM is making rookie mistakes. One of the other common mistakes of a novice GM is padding an encounter when the baddie is losing. Adding a flame strike spell to a villain's list during the combat is flat out cheating, and it's wrong. It's a common situation where a GM sets up an encounter, and due to any number of circumstances, including luck of the dice, the encounter gets beaten more easily by the PCs than the GM planned. How does a GM handle this? During the combat, don't worry about it, and let the villain be defeated. A GM can always come up with more Big Bad Evil Guys to replace the one your party just trounced, no sweat. After the combat, the GM should do an honest evaluation of the encounter. If the encounter was too weak to challenge the PCs, then increase the power of the next one. If the PCs got good dice rolls, or the villain rolled poorly, don't adjust anything, because luck swings both ways, and it won't make difference in the long run. If the PCs are playing so smart and so effectively that they need tougher encounters to challenge them, then up the encounters for next time. As for those that have ranted about being able to beat every encounter "guaranteed," unless the GM is throwing creatures with a CR significantly below that of the party, there are no guarantees. I've seen tough 3rd level characters get trounced by skeleton warriors (CR 1/3), simply because of a critical hit with a spear (x3 crit multipliers hurt). Believe me, once the dice start rolling, there are no guarantees. A good GM makes the encounters tough, but not impossible, to beat. The best analogy is the movie Die Hard. You want the party to come through beaten, battered, bleeding and a hair's breadth away from death, but victorious. Then you know you've given them a tough fight. It's a very difficult thing to gauge, but that's the way I try to run it. I've also planned out encounters that were supposed to go the distance that turned into a first-round win for the PCs. Well, sometimes the good guys get lucky. I didn't sweat it, and no GM worth his salt should feel offended if the players get good dice rolls once in a while. It happens, as do runs of bad luck. Your GM just needs to relax, and not worry if his pet villain gets trounced too easily. He can whip up a new villain to take his place in short order.
ItaraKoturo 07-30-06, 08:55 PM	Then why don't you post the specifics then so we can see if there really is a problem. Alright, if you're up for reading through them. The party is in a small room located in the upper level of their "base of operations", a manor in a small barony. We had just realized that one of our trusted comrades was in fact Totally Evil and were going through his belongings while he was gone for clues to his actions. We came across a glass eye, known to be a relic of evil (we had encountered one such eye before) and a pouch containing a small box. Upon opening the box, a glyph on the inside triggered and unleashed a horned devil. The devil began within five feet of the wizard who had opened it. Initiative was rolled, combat began. A couple of us attempted to attack the devil, only to find that we were subjected to a fear effect, causing us to run screaming out of the room. My first inkling that this fight might not be properly balanced was when I realized my Will save of 22 wasn't enough to resist the innate fear effect. Then it was the horned devil's turn. He took a five-foot step and full-round attacked the wizard. I can't remember how many attacks horned devils receive with a full round, but it didn't matter. The wizard was dead after the third. Note that we play with death-at-negative-constitution rules and the wizard had more than 10 Con. After another full round of unsuccessfully attempting to damage the horned devil, our cleric arrived on the scene and dropped a Chaos Hammer on the fiend, rolling a natural 19 on the SR check. As he was a lawful outsider, it slowed him for 1d6 rounds. We got five rounds out of it, not terrible. This reduced him to a single attack per round, and let us keep him at bay for long enough to hit him with spells that don't allow SR (orb of acid and such) and ranged attacks until he finally dropped. Please note that if he hadn't rolled that natural 19 on the SR check, the next round another person would have died, and that would have repeated every round or so. Also, Kradlo, I agree with your assessment. That's kind of the impression I got from her decisions as well. Should I tell her what you've told me, or go about it in a different fashion? I'm loathe to tell her that she's making rookie mistakes, as I think she likes to consider herself an fairly proficient GM or something. Any suggestions?
SokenzanMarauder 07-30-06, 10:35 PM	My first inkling that this fight might not be properly balanced was when I realized my Will save of 22 wasn't enough to resist the innate fear effect. The core save for that is 23... Close. As for your DM. I'd inform her, nicely, that she's making some pretty big mistakes and would like her to keep from doing so again if she's able. I wouldn't go nova on her as everyone makes mistakes sometimes (I once set 2 CR 3 shadows on two 3rd level characters almost killing them both, and I've been DMing for a good 8 years, I just thought they could handle it and they couldn't) it's a natural part of the learning experience that you kind of have to just float along with. Ask her if maybe she'll let you raise your friend without any of the penalties that go along with it, if you're lucky she may. -Gene
Organ 07-31-06, 06:40 AM	Sticky subject. There have been some very interesting comments made so far. Here's my two cents on the whole thing: It's not wrong per se by your DM to throw a hard encounter your way. It's her campaign and her rules, so it's up to her to decide which encounters, regardless of EL, to use. BUT, that said; I don't think it was entirely fair of her either to force a really difficult encounter on you, without giving you a chance to avoid it. As you've described the whole thing it seams like luck was the only thing that kept the demon from wiping out the entire party. Offering an escape route at that point would be as if to say "OK guys, this encounter is really above your capability to handle. If you still want to take it on, feel free to do so. If not, I suggest you start running NOW!". The other mistake made by your DM was in my opinion that she didn't give you the proper amount of XP afterwords. Letting you fight a tough monster is one thing, not revarding you accordingly when you actually pull it off, is even worse. So you've actually gotten your asses kicked twice in the same session. If you didn't get the correct amount of XP because your DM thought that that would be too much for a party of your level, she shouldn't have let you have that a difficult encounter in the first place. As for how to handle the issue of letting your DM know how you feel, I suggest you tell her that you've started a thread on this forum to get feedback on what to do and show her what people have replied. Hopefully everybody involved will learn something by all this in the end.
Kradlo 07-31-06, 02:41 PM	Be nice. Be diplomatic. Your GM has made mistakes, but mistakes can be forgiven. The point is to learn from them, and then move on. You can avoid words like "rookie" or "beginner," even they are applicable. Try "enthusiastic" instead. Your GM wanted an exciting combat, but erred in throwing a creature with a CR significantly above the level of the party. Try saying, "I know you wanted us to have a tough, harrowing fights and an exciting adventure, but I think it would be better for all concerned if they were with encounters closer to our level in challenge rating. The attack by the horned devil was heading for a TPK (Total Party Kill), and it took serious luck to beat it. I know that's not what you want, you just got a little overenthusiastic in drafting the encounter." Shrug and say, "I know you don't want the encounters to be pushovers, but you don't want a TPK, either. Just find a happy middle ground, and we're good." You obviously like your GM as a person, and would like to continue in the campaign. You just want it at a level appropriate for the party. That is certainly not unreasonable.
bitnine 07-31-06, 03:30 PM	Perhaps you should count yourself as lucky. If it were me, I'd toss in a fiend with a CR 6 levels above your party. And if it got initiative it would cast its at will blasphemy every round to no-save stunlock the party while its little summon slowly sawed through all of your necks. Then I'd do a little dance and laugh about how "that's life" and it's "real tough." Hm, wait... I think I wrote that down slightly off. That's something I would NEVER do.
Dragon Eye 08-01-06, 01:34 PM	Based on the information you’ve provided, it sounds like the DM greatly nerfed the horned devil. First off, using ranged attacks and orbs of acid should have taken a long time to kill it as it has ER10 acid and DR10/good AND silver. If, as you mentioned, your party “…has less equipment than it should and is made up of (largely) non-combat-centric characters”, how did you manage to kill it before it the slow wore off or before it killed you while it was slow? You mentioned 2 full rounds of not hitting it (at the beginning of combat), so that further leads me to believe that there was no way to kill it in 5 rounds (before the slow wore off) if it had not been greatly nerfed. Secondly, did the DM attempt a will save vs your Chaos Hammer? The DC should have been easily overcome. Third, (I’m not completely sure this would work) what about his Dispel Chaos at will? Shouldn’t he been able to dispel the slow effect of Chaos Hammer? Fourth, did he use his 3 fireballs? Or his lightning bolt? Or any other spell-like abilities? Fifth. If you are complaining about its DC23 fear aura, why is there no complaint of the DC27 stun attack? Even at one attack per round, at +25 (or +22 since you said your DM lowered it by 3) and a DC27 fort save, you should have had one stunned PC per round. All in all, either you DM played the horned devil very poorly, or she did in fact reduce its capabilities. Either way, you did not fight a CR16 creature and limited experience is reasonable. On another note, in your first post you mentioned, “…a couple chaos hammers…” Later you mention you were lucky to get one past its SR. So, was it one or two spells? Also how many PCs were in your party? It sounds like you had a wizard (you died before acting), a cleric (who cast Chaos Hammer), another arcane caster (the one you cast Orb of Acid) and one or two others?
ItaraKoturo 08-01-06, 03:48 PM	Based on the information you’ve provided, it sounds like the DM greatly nerfed the horned devil. She didn't. She reduced its hit points by twenty or so and its BAB by three. She told us that those were the changes she made, and assumed it would significantly impact the encounter's EL. As any experienced DM will tell you, these changes pale in comparison to the advantage it gains from retaining its special qualities and attacks. Again, I'm not asking you guys to evaluate the strength of this encounter as my gaming group has already done so at great length. The purpose of this thread is to ask how I should go about dealing with the DM given these circumstances. First off, using ranged attacks and orbs of acid should have taken a long time to kill it as it has ER10 acid and DR10/good AND silver. Yes, it took a few rounds. It's not tough to bypass ER 10 with an 8d6 acid orb, though. And yes, the ranged attacks did next to nothing. After five rounds it added up, though. Again, I don't need you to try and evaluate exactly how the horned devil was adjusted. We know how it was altered from the base, and I have explained it twice already. If, as you mentioned, your party “…has less equipment than it should and is made up of (largely) non-combat-centric characters”, how did you manage to kill it before it the slow wore off or before it killed you while it was slow? You mentioned 2 full rounds of not hitting it (at the beginning of combat), so that further leads me to believe that there was no way to kill it in 5 rounds (before the slow wore off) if it had not been greatly nerfed. You did read the special qualities of the horned devil, right? You note the fear aura it generates? That's why there were two full rounds of doing nothing to it - we tried to break the fear aura one round and spent the next running down the hall like sissies. Thus, the ranged combat. Secondly, did the DM attempt a will save vs your Chaos Hammer? The DC should have been easily overcome. Unfortunately for the horned devil, it did not save. It should be noted that at this point it was probably pretty obvious to the DM that she had made a poor selection of enemy as a party member had just been completely destroyed. The DM makes saving throws behind a screen, so it could have been a voluntary failure. Third, (I’m not completely sure this would work) what about his Dispel Chaos at will? Shouldn’t he been able to dispel the slow effect of Chaos Hammer? Hmmm, yes, that would work as Chaos Hammer receives the [Chaotic] descriptor. However, when the horned devil did use its Dispel Chaos ability it was to gain a little AC for a round or so, and then to touch the cleric, robbing her of some of her spells (again, the DM's proficiency with the rules and willingness to look them up was lacking - the cleric in question lost her air walk spell, and the dispel was made at range instead of touch - though at the time I was not familiar enough with the spells in question to counter her). Fourth, did he use his 3 fireballs? Or his lightning bolt? Or any other spell-like abilities? He used one fireball. It doesn't stick out glaringly in my mind because I play a rogue and was able to evade it, but it did damage to at least one other party member. Again, the DM may have been pulling punches at this point. Fifth. If you are complaining about its DC23 fear aura, why is there no complaint of the DC27 stun attack? Even at one attack per round, at +25 (or +22 since you said your DM lowered it by 3) and a DC27 fort save, you should have had one stunned PC per round. The creature never had a chance to enter melee. Under a slow effect, horned devils move at 10 feet per move action, and can only take a single move or standard action per round. For the PCs, this means even moving only one move action per round keeps the creature at bay, even with his 20-foot reach, as he can't move and attack in the same round. He tried to get within reach of us for a round or two, but when that failed started resorting to his special abilities. As I've said before, that slow effect saved our asses. All in all, either you DM played the horned devil very poorly, or she did in fact reduce its capabilities. Either way, you did not fight a CR16 creature and limited experience is reasonable. Even if the DM began playing the horned devil poorly on purpose after the first couple rounds (which is questionable), it doesn't change the fact that for that first round the horned devil was certainly more than our party should have faced. And in light of last week's game (where a flamestrike that couldn't have happened killed our fighter, the same player of the character who died fighting the horned devil) I think it's pretty reasonable to say that this isn't an isolated issue. On another note, in your first post you mentioned, “…a couple chaos hammers…” Later you mention you were lucky to get one past its SR. So, was it one or two spells? Two. The first one broke its SR. The second one was tried a round later and didn't. The following round the cleric lost her air walk and fell to the ground (she had been floating just outside the upper story window with a view of the hallway where the fight was going on). Also how many PCs were in your party? It sounds like you had a wizard (you died before acting), a cleric (who cast Chaos Hammer), another arcane caster (the one you cast Orb of Acid) and one or two others? One wizard, one cleric (who showed up two rounds in), one warmage, one rogue and one ranger (who didn't participate in the combat). So in this particular fight, four characters, which is the assumed number for balancing encounters. Even had the ranger been there it wouldn't have altered anything greatly. He would've added a small amount of ranged damage in the latter rounds of combat (breaking DR 10 every once in a while) but otherwise have had no effect.
SokenzanMarauder 08-01-06, 04:24 PM	Well, according to the CR rules, a party of 5 9th level characters is an EL 14 encounter. Whereas a single CR 16 creature is an EL 16 encounter. Just thought I'd throw that out there. -Gene
Immric 08-01-06, 05:22 PM	I think we may have deviated from what the OP wanted (I was first to respond and I think I may have misinterpreted that he wanted). As I’m reading the thread your major concern is not so much the encounter itself but the reward you got for it? What is the issue you would like advice on resolving? Obviously it’s not whether or not the encounter was overpowered for your party. So what would you like advice on? :confused:
ItaraKoturo 08-01-06, 06:36 PM	Well, according to the CR rules, a party of 5 9th level characters is an EL 14 encounter. Whereas a single CR 16 creature is an EL 16 encounter. Just thought I'd throw that out there. -Gene Except that's not how encounters work in D&D. You don't balance the party against the encounter EL for EL. That would, perfectly balanced, cause the monster and party to exhaust 100% of each of their resources, effectively killing them both. All CRs are balanced so that a CR X monster is an appropriate challenge for four X-level characters. A single CR 16 monster is a suitable encounter for four 16th-level characters.
ItaraKoturo 08-01-06, 06:37 PM	I think we may have deviated from what the OP wanted (I was first to respond and I think I may have misinterpreted that he wanted). As I’m reading the thread your major concern is not so much the encounter itself but the reward you got for it? What is the issue you would like advice on resolving? Obviously it’s not whether or not the encounter was overpowered for your party. So what would you like advice on? :confused: How should I go about bringing my concerns (and those of the party) up with the DM, if at all? I was hoping that she would realize on her own that her decision to throw that encounter at us was a little off-base, but the circumstances surrounding last week's playerkill call that into question. EDIT: For reference, Kradlo has done an excellent job of addressing the prompt of this thread.
Kradlo 08-01-06, 08:20 PM	Your follow-up posts have been expansive in detailing the encounter. Everything you've said supports my conclusion. Your GM threw a monster at you that was clearly above the Challenge Rating appropriate to the party, then nerfed it in an attempt to compensate. This is a very common mistake with rookie GMs. Some have commented about the various abilities that horned devils possess, and whether these abilities were removed as part of the nerfing. It may be that the horned devil was further diminished in power by limiting or eliminating those powers, but I suspect the more likely reason that the powers weren't used is that the GM was not fully familiar with the abilities, and used what came most immediately to mind. The flame strike is the other side of the same coin. The GM sees an encounter going badly for the monster/villain, and quietly gives it a little boost to compensate. So, we see an opponent suddenly use a power or item that it did not have moments before, to the detriment of the party. It's the same kind of rookie mistake. I'd suggest you talk to the GM in private, so that her ego isn't bruised. I imagine she'd take it badly if she were upbraided in front of the rest of the group. Very calmly, very nicely, explain to her that it would be best if the encounters were kept balanced to the party's encounter level. If she wants to throw a demon or devil at the party, that's fine, so long as it's one at or around the CR for the group. Picking an overpowered opponent is a mistake, and nerfing it on the fly compounds the error. Adding extra spells, powers, or magic items to opponents in the midst of an encounter is also a mistake. Tell her that you know that she's trying to make the adventure exciting and challenging, but that she's on the wrong track. If an encounter is too weak and the party gets an easy victory, don't worry about it. The next one can be beefed up appropriately. If she does it in relatively small steps, she'll find a good feel for matching the encounter to the party, and then everyone will have a great time. Tell her that everyone makes mistakes, and you don't hold any grudges for them. The important thing is to recognize and learn from them. She'll be a better GM for it, and the players will have more fun. This is the time to work on the Diplomacy check, and I mean Out Of Character. This won't be easy to say without hurting her feelings, but I think you can find a way. Just remember that she's your friend, and you both want each other to have a good time in the game, and then you've found your common ground.