Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jake Fritters 03-20-05, 06:12 PM	I recently joined a game where the DM has a rule where there is no magic. This rule doesn't really bother me, and I can play it through but I want to compensate the loss of the magic items and the like (the DM has given us a bonus feat at first level and 2 skills every level). Aside from masterwork weapons, what items would you recomend. My character is a swashbuckler - so light armor, any type of weapon finesseable weapon, and so on. I plan to do 10 Swashbuckler/10 Dread Pirate, so most of the gold I would normally spend on magic items will be used for a boat. Also I'm an elf, so normally exotic weapons to elfs are fair game. I get 300 gp to spend at the start, any suggestions?
kliate 03-20-05, 06:47 PM	Alchemical items, such as acid and alchemists fire can be a big help - assuming that they still exist. The DM may also provide certain alchemical substances that help fill in the power gap. Is the bonus feat also 1/level? If so, that should probably more than compensate for items in the short run. By level 7-8, however, expect things to get extremely difficult.
ShadowDragon8685 03-20-05, 06:51 PM	Get out the hammer gun. Go down to Home Depot. Load up on ammunition. Shoot your DM. In the face. With. A. Hammer. No magic? What in the hell is he THINKING?! Good grief!
Jake Fritters 03-20-05, 06:52 PM	Well, the current campaign we are playing in will supposedly run up to about level 5. After that, if our group is willing, we will travel away from a small peninsula where there is a possibilty of magic becoming available, but most likely will be very rare and expensive. Alchemy is available, although I hadn't really looked into it. I'll check it out. The bonus feat is only for the first level, but if the DM finds the game becomes too hard, he will most likely tweak the characters a little bit to compensate. EDIT: To Shadowdragon, I think the DM is taking away magic to add to the setting. The world the campaign takes place in has about 5 major settlements on a tiny peninsula which is barracaded from othere land by mountains. He hinted that, if the group decides to continue, after the short campaign we might find magic on the other side of the mountains. Personally, I'm fine with the lack of magic, I think it will go well with the rest of the group because, I'm not sure about the players, I think we are all beginners (The DM mentioned he has been a player, but is relatively new to DMing). The DM is a pretty cool guy and seems to know what hes doing, so please don't flame him.
d_nychus 03-20-05, 07:07 PM	Uh, are you trying to write PENINSULA? If so, this falls under the funniest case of misspelling and censorship combination of all times. ;) That, and I truly feel sorry for the tiny peninsula.
Jake Fritters 03-20-05, 07:17 PM	Oh crap, lol... yeah... that was pretty stupid :(
weasel fierce 03-20-05, 07:49 PM	Sounds like an interesting game. An extra feat every level is a bit much, but as long as you have fun, anything goes.
Capt. Pixel 03-20-05, 11:00 PM	Gee, i don't see what the problem is. A 'no magic' campaign sounds like fun. I wouldn't mind doing that myself. I too, would take a swashbuckler class. Plenty of room for variations in D&D. It would be a shame not to explore them all. :cool:
Mirikon 03-20-05, 11:33 PM	If the 'no magic' bit lasts only until level 5, it doesn't sound too bad, though the lack of a Cleric class will hurt, especially if you have more than one combat in a day, and haven't spent most of your starting gold on potions. It might even be fun to play, though after level 5, if you don't have a cleric, you're going to be getting your ass handed to you eventually. Not necessarily from any one combat, but not being able to heal between fights will suck, or get very expensive.
Wizard 03-21-05, 12:18 AM	Go wizard. Seriously. Then read the Combat section eight times, and survive by sheer wits and a crossbow. For an easier game experience, yeah, you're doing it right. Though a spiked chain fighter in a world with only archers for ranged combat would be interesting...
Deflare 03-21-05, 12:30 AM	Obvious note: Most of D&D wouldn't make much sense without magic. Now that that's out of the way: This definitely sounds interesting. I very rarely use magic; the rules are complicated, and when I see something big, ugly, and hungry walking toward me, my first instinct is to reach for a pointy piece of metal instead of a beat-up leather-bound tome. Thus, a no-magic scenario wouldn't affect me much until I needed magical items. Now then, does your DM allow weapons of special metals, such as mithril? If so, then those could be adjusted to give you bonuses to attack and such. Plus, it fits in well for a Swashbuckler/ Pirate to have a mithril rapier or cutlass. As others have stated, healing is the critical issue. Unless there are some sort of uber-herbs around... How about a modified form of psionics that allow you to agitate the body's healing systems? Technically, it's not magic... Otherwise, you'll have to use mundane means, which are much slower than normal healing magic.
Harold DeVor 03-21-05, 05:55 AM	Get out the hammer gun. Go down to Home Depot. Load up on ammunition. Shoot your DM. In the face. With. A. Hammer. No magic? What in the hell is he THINKING?! Good grief! Posts like this make me gratefull for every group I've played in. They may have had problems but atleast they weren't so small minded they refused to accept or even discuss a new idea.
Cold Napalm 03-21-05, 06:06 AM	No magic can work... Basically I like playing wizardly sorts so I HATE no/low magic games. But hey it's really a preference thing as long as it's applied universally. So no high magic critters in a low/no magic game since that would unbalance things a bit much. Also the CR MUST be readjusted to account for lose in power via treasure. A CR 5 critter will annilate a party level 5 if all they have is normal stuff.
Fraser1986 03-21-05, 06:25 AM	What sort of things are you going to be fighting against? Will there be monsters and stuff or just animals, dire animals and NPC's. Furthermore if there are monsters, will they have the use of their spell like effects?
Kaldric 03-21-05, 06:52 AM	Ye're a pirate, me lad. Pirates don't buy boats, they steal them. As should you. Find a fisherman and humorously toss him over the side and take his boat. Etc. Repeat as necessary, with larger and larger boats/ships. Try to find an eeeevil fisherman to toss overboard if you're going to be a good guy. As for the money, get yourself a nice sword and a cool outfit. If you get a cool enough outfit, all piratical, you might be able to finagle a +1 or 2 intimidation circumstance bonus, then you could maybe fight a little less. Most important thing - don't spend TOO much money on the sword, etc. Your main focus in a low level no-magic campaign? Hirelings. Cannon fodder. Peons. Meat-shields. Mooks. Hire a few guys to stand in front of the incoming arrows. Can't hurt. Plus, you need a crew to run the big ship you steal. Hire some scurvy scalawags.
ShadowDragon8685 03-21-05, 07:17 AM	This guy is new at DMing. So he's gonna be pulling monsters out of the Monster Manual. There's no way in heck he knows how to make up good customs to ajust to the lack of magic. oookay. Have fun the first time you run into a monster with spell-like abilities, or worse - DR 10-15/magic. Like all Fey have. Only the Barbarian will be able to damage it, and only for very little damage indeed. Your rapier-fighter pirate? You might as well bugger yourself with your own sword, because you sure as heck won't get through it's DR. And I pity you poor mooks the first time you run into something with an enchantment power. Because of the no-magic, you're gonna all be running Barbarians and Fighters to have any hope of survival, which means your will saves will be crappy. Might even be negative.
Kaldric 03-21-05, 07:32 AM	That could also be taken to mean no magic monsters, no magic-using monsters. Like, maybe they'd just be swashbuckling. I don't remember Errol Flynn or fighting a lot of damage resistant magical monsters. Mostly he fought other people. Which, in some people's opinions, is more enjoyable than the monster-of-the-month. And doesn't require magic, if the opposing pirate/merchant/warship doesn't use magic either.
Harold DeVor 03-21-05, 07:50 AM	This guy is new at DMing. So he's gonna be pulling monsters out of the Monster Manual. There's no way in heck he knows how to make up good customs to ajust to the lack of magic. oookay. Have fun the first time you run into a monster with spell-like abilities, or worse - DR 10-15/magic. Like all Fey have. Only the Barbarian will be able to damage it, and only for very little damage indeed. Your rapier-fighter pirate? You might as well bugger yourself with your own sword, because you sure as heck won't get through it's DR. And I pity you poor mooks the first time you run into something with an enchantment power. Because of the no-magic, you're gonna all be running Barbarians and Fighters to have any hope of survival, which means your will saves will be crappy. Might even be negative. Yes because as we all know it impossible to sit down and put some thought into your campaign. Everyone just sticks a pin into the MM and they fight that monster, no thoughts about wheather its suitable. No one has ever designed a campaign where races and monsters are limited, its just impossible. Try thinking before opening your mouth, the results might be worthwhile .
Meroddin 03-21-05, 09:13 AM	The first campaign I DMed, I did many many more encounters with humanoids scaled with class levels than generic monsters out of the manual. Gricks and Gargoyles only came in after they'd found their extremely valuable magic weapons... Of course, the 18 Str fighter hadn't found anything he wanted to use yet. :D
anders 03-21-05, 09:30 AM	@ShadowDragon8685: Please read what topic the poster wants discussed before you decide to flame away. He said he had no problems with no/low magic, and frankly I find the low/no magic idea very interesting myself. He is asking about what items to buy. So please, next time, keep the stupidity to yourself. @Jake Fritters - Try to collect weapons with special material, as this will help you overcome DR of some monsters (these are, however, too expensive to buy at the start) - Aside from that I dont really think you'll need any special equipment. Good luck in your campaign. It sure sounds fun!
MrkGrismer 03-21-05, 09:50 AM	I would suspect that the DM is limiting encounters to humanoids and animals (those with the animal type), with the same restrictions. I am curious, however, what about mithral and/or adamantium?
Thoronmir 03-21-05, 10:24 AM	Shadowdragon, how about we wait for Jake to come back with a whiney post about how unfair his DM is for tossing magic-wielding NPCs and high-DR monsters at the party before we crucify the DM? While I prefer to see new DMs stick to the RAW for their first couple of campaigns, it sounds as if this new DM has given some thought to the potential problems. The fact that he’s essentially declared the campaign a “test run” of his ideas speaks well of him. If the campaign is designed for swashbuckling and daring-do, chances are that most of the party’s opponents will be equally-limited NPCs. Jake, here’s some advice for your DM from someone with lots of "pirating" experience who also successfully ran a no-magic campaign many years ago … I assume your DM wants to try a no-magic setting primarily for its flavor rather than any issues he has with magic in general. If so, he might consider non-magical means to duplicate magical effects. The Healing skill gains critical importance due to the absence of Divine magic. He might want to add Herbalism to the mix and create a selection of herbs that replicate some magical healing properties. Depending on the cost and/or rarity of the herbs, suggested effects can include: herbs that accelerate natural healing, herbs that restore Ability Score damage, herbs that allow a character to “disregard” his injuries for a short time (mechanically, such an herb could provide temporary Hit Points but would leave their user Fatigued at the end of the dose’s duration), and herbs that provide bonuses to curing poisons and/or diseases. We have also used herbs that provided short-term Ability Score buffs. I leave it to the DM to set appropriate DCs to achieve any such effects. Masterwork items become more valuable. Your DM might consider adding a category of even rarer MW weapons that provide the +1 bonus to Attack and Damage. Of course, if you intend to dangle from the mainstay, MW armor is a must to reduce the skill penalty. Again, your DM might want to create even better MW armor that provides a -2 reduction of the penalty. As someone already noted, alchemical items can really bolster a “no-magic” party. I recommend your group use a point-buy system (at least 28 points, perhaps 32). This will help compensate for the lack of magic. Having no Divine or Arcane powers will amplify the PCs’ weaknesses. At low levels, the lack of magic can profoundly affect the party. Your DM ought to ease into the campaign with a few lighter encounters. His best option is to pit you against NPCs, since they can be designed as equals and will suffer the same disadvantages as the PCs. If memory serves, a MW weapon adds 300 gp to the base cost of the weapon, so you can’t afford one at 1st level. However, MW armor only adds 150 to the base cost of armor, so you could invest in some MW studded leather (+3 AC and no skill penalty). As for your ship, why buy what you can steal? You’re pirates after all, right? Just keep in mind a few pointers … the Captain was rarely the best seaman, but was usually the most charismatic and/or the best fighter (the First Mate was usually the most skilled sailor) … not all pirates killed everyone they encountered (“You can slaughter a sheep for mutton only once, you can shear a sheep for wool many times”) … “port” is left and “starboard” is right (if it helps, just remember that “port” and “left” have the same number of letters) … a “sheet” is not a sail, it is a rope that serves the specific purpose of “trimming” a sail (e.g., the “mainsheet” is the rope used to adjust the position of the mainsail) … rum can be as effective a motivational tool as the lash … “beam” does not refer to a piece of lumber, it is the horizontal measurement at the widest part of the hull (usually near the center of the ship along its length) … the easiest way to distinguish between a “ship” and a “boat” is that a ship can carry boat … a “jib” is a sail (specifically, a triangular foresail), a “jibe” is a maneuver (specifically, a “tack” performed when sailing downwind) … don’t forget to ransom your captives … for inspiration, I strongly recommend two Errol Flynn movies, Captain Blood and Against All Flags. Good huntin’ to ye, ye scurvy dog … Arrrrrr!
Duvanok 03-21-05, 02:11 PM	Wow, it actually happened. . . someone actually managed to suck all the fun out of D&D. :weep:
Aliquid 03-21-05, 02:26 PM	Wow, it actually happened. . . someone actually managed to suck all the fun out of D&D. :weep:You don't need magic to have fun with D&D. You don't need a powerful character to have fun in D&D. I once played in a campaign (homebrew rules) where there was no magic, zero combat (other than a couple fist fights), and we all basically played 'commoners'. We still had fun, and the DM ran an entertaining game. Of course it required a high-quality DM to pull this off... but it can be done.
Helmed Horror 03-21-05, 03:27 PM	now.. I say first off go w/ it! and have fun! of course... no when you mean no magic... no spell like ablilites?? if allowed SLA's... warlock!!!
Stafir Ortnev 03-21-05, 03:35 PM	Wow....I bet alot of you guys also hate any RPG set in modern times..or close to it..that go more towards normal guns...maybe a bit of diff tech..but mostly sticks to our world..and is more sci-fi..or heck..world war re-inactment type things..than anything. If removing Magic gets rid of all the fun..or makes a DM need to be punished :rolleyes:
Thoronmir 03-21-05, 03:51 PM	Yeah, my memory ain’t what it used to be, but I don’t recall much “magic” in some of the other RPGs I played so many years ago … Boot Hill, Traveler, Gangbusters, Gammaworld, Marvel Superheroes, Morrow Project, Champions, Heroes Unlimited, Top Secret, Call of Cthulu (oh wait, there was magic in Cthulu … and it drove the PCs insane!). Should the DM have just looked around for a swashbuckling/pirate-themed RPG? Probably. But why buy new books when all you need to do is strip down D&D a little?
Evil Wizard 03-21-05, 04:02 PM	Posted by Duvanok Wow, it actually happened. . . someone actually managed to suck all the fun out of D&D. :weep: And you know this from playing several sessions in his campaign? Seriously, don't judge unless you've tried it yourself. I don't think it's something a novice DM should try, but there is plenty of potential for a great game in a no-magic campaign. You can craft an entire story arc out of an encounter with a single troll. I'd pass along a recommendation to your DM to either use the vitality/wound points option from Unearthed Arcana, or modify the Heal skill to allow significant healing of HP. Although you can get by without healing magic, the downtime will be a killer. Fudging the rules to get by this is strongly recommended. Perhaps he could allow special herb concoctions to act as healing potions?
MrkGrismer 03-21-05, 04:47 PM	The added downtime could actually be a boon, give those with craft skills time to do some crafting.
Lord Dracos 03-21-05, 05:01 PM	No magic sounds like a nice break to me.
DM Denubis 03-21-05, 05:57 PM	Posts like this make me gratefull for every group I've played in. They may have had problems but atleast they weren't so small minded they refused to accept or even discuss a new idea. Heh... It appears to be Shadowdragon's answer to everything. I'm waiting for two things on this board. One of them is to see someone on the CO boards say, "Optimize this wizard for me!", and for Tempest or someone equally as talented to just say "No.". The other is to see someone say, "My DM is the greatest!", and for the whole hammer shooting thing to come around. By the way, who started this? I have a bone to pick with you... Anyhow, as far as the topic is concerned, I suggest alchemical substances. Lots of them. Also, if you can get an adamantine weapon, that'd be great. I also suggest a cold iron weapon, for those pesky fey. Mithril in weapon form is wasted.
Jake Fritters 03-21-05, 06:52 PM	Ok, kool alot of good feedback here. Healing is an issue to still be discussed, but the DM is very flexible (he has been so far), so he will probably allow herbs of some sort. I did not, however, take ANY skill points in heal, which nows seems like a big mistake. I might end up taking some before the game starts. To everyone who talked about having a game totally based around pirates, we have a party of three guys me, a paladin and a ranger. The ranger is going to play as a archer and be a very tactical player, while the paladin is most likely just going to be a guy with a sword. The only reason I choose swashbuckler - dread pirate is because of what the DM has told me - hes said that although the current peninsula we are going to be playing on isn't based on sea travel, later campaigns will (after level 5 or 6). He also mentioned there is a chance of there being magic in the later campaings but it will be very rare, so its not going to be something we can count on for all the awesome weapons. Also, for the boat I was planning to be an honorable pirate, so could I still be one and steal a ship? Alchemical items are obviously going to be a big help, and the DM is allowing the use of pretty much any alchemical items that can be found (expect maybe ever burning torch). I decided to take 4 skills in craft for that reason, and was planning to spend 200 gp on various alchemical items. This might change however... MW weapons are available, I've yet to ask about things mitheral plates and the like - my guess is that as long as they contain no magical bonuses they are useable. I might end up spending that 200 gold on MW studded leather... Concerning enemies, my guess is we will be facing primarily the basic races. This peninsula is seculded and rather small, mostly populated by elfs and humans. Also, the DM knows what he's doing, hes played DND for a long time, hes just semi new to DMing, so he won't throw in any magically boosted monsters. Heres my character so far - http://www.3eprofiler.net/3ep/view.php?id=19578. I'll post any updates on the DM's rulings concerning mitheral armor (sp?) and the other things like healing...
Capt. Pixel 03-21-05, 07:11 PM	Your PC looks pretty good. Aren't you concerned about your low weight ranges? Your Rapier and armor has already taken you to 22# (out of 30# light load) I'd spread my skills out a bit too. maxing 8 skills might not be in your best interest. I'd suggest some ranks in Escape Artist, Heal, Jump, Tumble and Swim (where is Swim, BTW? I didn't see it listed on the PC sheet. Is that not a 3.5 skill?) :cool:
smileybob1 03-21-05, 07:24 PM	i would seriously be concerned with a game like this. for several reasons: eliminating magic means (i guess) no bards, clerics, wizards, sorcerers or druids i would also think that monks and paladins as well, both have spell like abilities that if allowed would not be balancing AT ALL. so that leaves the ranger, fighter, barbarian and rogue. this sounds terrible to me. it is actually more unbalancing and difficult to play WITHOUT magic. how is healing performed. i hope that there are not battles that take place more than once a week. i am not saying that is not an option, but i think it would be frustrating. i love role playing (and i really love role playing with magic, it does more than just blow stuff up), but sometimes you just want to battle to show off your abilities. i also wonder about knowledge skills. the most knowledgeable classes are terribly crippled beyond belief. so i guess there are no knowledge skills either. the other thing that i love about fantasy worlds are encountering magical creatures, i am guessing they dont exist here since they would probably dominate any encounter. it just seems like a really bad idea. the notion that an inexperienced dm was doing this to make things simpler. personally i would advise only the most experienced dms to take on such a task. i hope this is read with an open mind as previous dissenters were simply written off as flamers.
Dartanel 03-21-05, 08:13 PM	I agree somwhat with Shadowdragon's position that D&D is somewhat less suitable for a no magic campaign. But I have a much better solution then a hammer gun. Look into picking up a copy of d20 Past, it's probably much better suited to a no magic setting.
Jake Fritters 03-21-05, 08:20 PM	Well, I might have given everyone the wrong impression - although I've never played a game with the DM he has assured me that hes an experienced player as both player and DM but he is trying something new with the no magic deal and has played more than DMed. He mentioned being fairly new to DMing, but hes definantly got all the rules down, has a mapped out campaign in a complex home brew world. Its obvious that the DM has put some serious thought into the game, so I think its going to be ok. Also, hes very open to giving a few extra feats to balanace character, so I think the game will be ok. The main question I had was how to optamize my equipment.
MrkGrismer 03-21-05, 10:20 PM	I have to say I am a little surprised at the choice in Paladin, since that character is giving up Laying on Hands as well as the spells (although no worries about that until higher levels anyway). But is the Paladin never going to get spells? What about turning undead? Technically not magic... Mithral chainshirts are nice, btw. (I agree, kind of pointless for weapons, that's what adamantine is for. :D)
anders 03-22-05, 05:05 AM	@Jake Fritters: In Forgotten Realms, there is a book describing drugs. Your dungeon master might allow creation of certain drugs with herbalism. It would be very good with some sort of healing drug (d8) or body enhancing stereoids :D (+2 physical attribute). Of course there is the addiction part, but i'm sure you and your dm can come up with some good houserules on this one. The Complete Warriors describes a non-spellcasting paladin. It might be worth checking out.. (or you can just shift to Cavalier prestige class as soon as possible - Complete warriors) And my guess is that it not "no magic at all", but rather very low magic?
Jake Fritters 03-22-05, 07:56 AM	Ok, for healing heres what I have- Find herbs with 20 DC check - Heal 2 points with 20 DC check, then at 26 DC check heal 4 points. Thats it. Oh, and you can't take a 20 for the heal check... Thats alll there is, so all os us players are going to have to play cautiously.
Meroddin 03-22-05, 08:38 AM	Also, for the boat I was planning to be an honorable pirate, so could I still be one and steal a ship? Privateers are somewhat akin to honorable pirates though honestly, a great many weren't especially honorable. Likewise, many a navy captain in the days of yore was not much better than a pirate given rank and national backing. When Britain, Spain, and France were at war, the navies would raid each other's ships bringing them back as plunder. Oh, so yes... My point was that you could steal a boat from a rival nation. That's actually how my pirate landed his boat.
ShadowDragon8685 03-22-05, 09:06 AM	Excuse me. Shoot the DM, in the face. You know the drill. Hammer is optional, you might want to go for 30-06 or 9x19 at this stage of the game. Really. A DC TWENTY check... For two hitpoints? And you can't take 20? 'Th heck!? D&D is meant to be played with magic. Mmmkay? Without healing, without magic, you're screwed. And especially with this stupid load-out of characters. A Paladin? Without magic, he's about as useful as the Warrior NPC class. A Ranger? Okay, I can see that, but he's gonna be in trouble later on when his natural abilities start to suck, well, no they won't. Simply put, you'll all suck equally. So you'd better be facing encounters of your CR -3. Swashbucklers just plain suck, a Paladin without magic is a Warrior, and a Ranger in higher levels without his secondary spellcasting isen't going to be too hot. And without those magic weapons and such, you're screwed. Mmkay? D&D expects - nay, it demands that you be armed with magic weapon - that Flaming sword that adds a much-needed +1d6 punch to the Paladin's sword, and a lot of Animals, especially Dires, do in fact have DR. So will anyone wearing Adamantine armor. Your Swashbuckler pirate is just not going to be able to pierce an animal's DR. And with your AC limited by the lack of magic, as you get up in levels, you'll be the only person who can avoid hits because of swashbuckler AV. The Paladin's AC will cap at 23, max, in full plate and with a tower! 10 + 8 + 4, and assuming he has 12 Dex, for +1. The Ranger's worse. His will cap at 18. 10 + 5 +3, and that's ASSUMING he gets ahold of a Mithril Breastplate and has Dexterity 16. If he can't get mithril, he'll cap at AC 18, but only if he has 18 Dex to back up the +4 Chainshirt. Do you have any idea what kind of attack bonuses most animals do? And most NPCs with PC levels? It's either going to be a "can't hit jack crap" fest, because everyone's at -5 BAB to have +5 AC, or it'll be a "trading blows we can't heal in any reasonable amount of time" fest, because everyone's whacking away because Armor Class may as well be a joke compared to everyone's attack bonii.
Harold DeVor 03-22-05, 09:58 AM	Yawn. Here we go again. Just because certain people are incapable of showing imagination or adapting doesn't make it a bad idea.
Skadrian 03-22-05, 10:30 AM	sundering is a very nice option, get a adamantine weapons and sunder away, no magic weapons, so you can sunder all wpn's quite easyly (sp?).
Temrek 03-22-05, 10:40 AM	It is against the law of the reality to remove a creatures magical abilitys in the monster manual... not. The only problem I see is that a PCs AC is designed to be highly optimised with magic, although that can be fixed.
Ricky 03-22-05, 11:13 AM	and a lot of Animals, especially Dires, do in fact have DR. In fact, I searched the Monster Manual and found that no animal or dire animal has DR. If you can show me otherwise, please do so.
Thoronmir 03-22-05, 11:30 AM	Well, the current campaign we are playing in will supposedly run up to about level 5. After that, if our group is willing, we will travel away from a small peninsula where there is a possibilty of magic becoming available, but most likely will be very rare and expensive.It appears that some responses missed this in Jake's earlier post. If the DM was starting the PCs at level 10 and planning to take them to Epic, I might share some your skepticism. But there’s no reason to think this can’t work for levels 1-5. At that time, it’s up to the players whether to continue on (actually, they can choose to bail whenever they want). How about we reserve the “hammer gun” for threads in which a player actually complains about his DM? Mmmkay?
Captain Casualty 03-22-05, 11:44 AM	i would seriously be concerned with a game like this. for several reasons: eliminating magic means (i guess) no bards, clerics, wizards, sorcerers or druids i would also think that monks and paladins as well, both have spell like abilities that if allowed would not be balancing AT ALL. so that leaves the ranger, fighter, barbarian and rogue. this sounds terrible to me. it is actually more unbalancing and difficult to play WITHOUT magic. how is healing performed. i hope that there are not battles that take place more than once a week. i am not saying that is not an option, but i think it would be frustrating. i love role playing (and i really love role playing with magic, it does more than just blow stuff up), but sometimes you just want to battle to show off your abilities. i also wonder about knowledge skills. the most knowledgeable classes are terribly crippled beyond belief. so i guess there are no knowledge skills either. the other thing that i love about fantasy worlds are encountering magical creatures, i am guessing they dont exist here since they would probably dominate any encounter. it just seems like a really bad idea. the notion that an inexperienced dm was doing this to make things simpler. personally i would advise only the most experienced dms to take on such a task. i hope this is read with an open mind as previous dissenters were simply written off as flamers. Hi Speaking as a DM who has been running a no magic campaign for just over 6 months now i feel there are a few issues to be discussed. 1) Complete warrior has non magical variants on paladins and rangers - the jury is still out on whether those replacements are worth it...just noting that they exist 2) Monks are totally S****** in a no magic world. Huh? yeh strange but they just do not work in a no magic enviroment. 3) With the exception of DR creatures the CR's work quite well. Keep the CR's the same for any creature without DR and increase CR by 1 for every 3 points of DR (some may quibble but that works for me) 4) Heal. Heal . Heal. Heal. You need it. You have no idea until you play it just how much downtime a no magic healing world needs. This time needs to be included in scenario planning to avoid TPK. 5) Plan your party together - Without the magic that is so usefull you need to have plans of action worked out. Think about it, in a world where a 5 round (thirty second) fight results in 6 days bed rest Teamwork rocks. 6) As does armour. 7) and ambushes - have move silent and hide. 8) easy to forget about will saves - don't you will need them eventually. Those are only my comments as DM (which may be of limited help to a player). I will try to get some of my players yo post there comments as well. Good luck. Magic is not needed BTW just a level playing field. Most of my players seem to enjoy the game and I have a waiting list for new players. QED.
Xanthia 03-22-05, 12:49 PM	What about Spell-like abilities and Supernatural Abilities? Do Monks get the shaft as well?
lukelightning 03-22-05, 03:28 PM	Does the DM mean "no magic as in no spells," or "no magic of any kind?" If it's the first, I'd play a monk.
Stafir Ortnev 03-22-05, 03:41 PM	Anyone else think ShadowDragon is the one who needs to be shot, in the face, with a hammer? I know I do..since he seems to think a DM is bad..just because the DM wants a low magic campain..and is willing to go to extra pains in making monsters right, to make it work. Sooo...anyone got that hammergun..I need to go ShadowDragon huntin...
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 03-22-05, 03:59 PM	Posts like this make me gratefull for every group I've played in. They may have had problems but atleast they weren't so small minded they refused to accept or even discuss a new idea. Congratulation. You've just fallen victim for the oldest ploy in the book. Someone post a flagrantly sarcastic, uber-lame comment and some people just HAVE to yammer about it. 3 possibilities... 1): He's for real. He's pathetic, but entitled his stupid opinions (:D). Ignore his post and he'll get away. 2): It's a joke made to see who's gonna fall for it. Ignore it. 3): This guy crave attention. Ignore him. Nothing against you personnaly, more against the phenomenon. What to do with a stupid (from your POW)post: Ignore. That way it don't spark a "discussion" going for 20 pages :D
anders 03-22-05, 07:06 PM	Anyone else think ShadowDragon is the one who needs to be shot, in the face, with a hammer? Yes, he is retarded and proves it in almost every thread he posts in. @Jake Fritters: Some example drugs presented in the lords of darkness book (Forgotten realms) price 75gp Gain d8 hp d4 wis damage. price 6gp gain +2 alchemical str bonus for d3 hours 1 point of wis damage etc. Your really should consider drugs :D As mentioned downtime will be an issue. A party without a healer will already struggle with this in a highly magical world, so this should be your main consern.
Cold Napalm 03-22-05, 08:34 PM	Okay so in a non magical world...how much treasure is the average character gonna have? Probably less then 1000...with MAYBE 7000 at high levels. That's WAY below what the CR is designed for and IF encounters take that into effect, I don't see too much of a problem.
Deekin 03-22-05, 09:02 PM	For a No-low magic swashbuckling campain, I definitly sugjest taking a look at WotC's D20 Modern and D20 Past rules. The Modern SRD can be found HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd) Most of the material can be used with DnD with no problems. And the best part is the Classes are designed with no-magic/exreamly expensive low magic in mind. You may have to have to do some converting, for example D20 modern uses a "Wealth Check" in place of dollers or coinage. Feel free to pick and chose which part to use, for the system is extreamly modular.