Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RainerNader 04-02-07, 02:44 AM	So I just wanted to get the peanut gallery's opinion on this issue... Generally every party has at least one cleric, or other divine caster (Favored Soul, Druid, etc) who they depend on for healing. There's a school of thought that clerics are essentially the most powerful base class, balanced by the fact that they have to act as "their brother's keeper." They can't simply charge into battle like the fighter or blast things with abandon like the wizard because there's a responsibility on their part to keep their comrades on their feet. How much do you agree with this statement and feel like that's how it exists in your gaming group?
Daydreamer 04-02-07, 02:48 AM	The cleric in our group is outstanding in terms of performing her Role. She is an excellent roleplayer, happy to be support or if a clear opportunity to strike and do damage comes up, she takes that. Shes good at tactics and does what will help the team overall best....i have no complaints.
TheChilliGod 04-02-07, 04:34 AM	I suppose my group is a lucky one. We have two players that are actually competing for the 'best band-aid' title, taking all these domains and feats to ensure that they're the one that the fighter or rogue asks if they're down by a few hp.
Faithkeep 04-02-07, 06:46 AM	In my group, I always play as a cleric and I love the fact that I am a "support" character. Sometimes I'm human and sometimes I'm a dwarf. I love casting buffs on people and I love protecting and healing my party-mates. I like it better than bashing monsters' heads in. I don't know why. So in our party, I pretty much let the fighter do the charging and the wizard do the blasting and ill just do the patching-up afterwards. Of course, I still love swinging my heavy mace from time to time... :D I guess I see the cleric's job of healing and protecting not as a responsibility. For me, it's a privilege. :dancin:
runestar 04-02-07, 07:32 AM	I dunno - is it really that efficient to heal during combat? It might be better to just fight, and use wands to patch up in between combat.:)
Drag0nUL 04-02-07, 07:41 AM	I usually play cleric in my gaming group, but I like playing a bit more offensively(I usually pick war and destruction/protection as my domains and get quite a number of offensive buffs/blasting spells). However, I don't ignore the fact that it is my responsibility to keep the group up and running and I do heal when it is necessary.I am just not very fond of it. I like a lot when my party gets a second healer. Fortunately my current groups has both me(paladin 2/cleric 3/bone knight 1) and a mystic theurge,and things are working just fine. He sits in the back and heals via spectral hand, while I get 'close and personal' with the opposition, being in a very good position for some emergency healing on the other melee characters.
Azezel 04-02-07, 07:41 AM	Our Party has two Clerics, and honestly - neither is a very good heal-bot. The Cleric of Kord wades into mellee with his greatsword, and self-buffs more than he heals. The Cleric/Favoured Soul of Joramy (me) doesn't wear armour, avoids mellee (which means she's nowhere near the tanks when they need help), and cannot spontaniously cast cure spells (She spontaniously casts Fire Domain spells). It's a miracle we've lasted this long...
Faithkeep 04-02-07, 08:05 AM	I dunno - is it really that efficient to heal during combat? It might be better to just fight, and use wands to patch up in between combat.:) Very true. :teach:
Leilond 04-02-07, 08:59 AM	There isn't a "general" answer There are gods that want you to be a "supporter" and gods that do not matter really much about others and prefer to see you personally smash the "evil/good" with your might weapone powerd by the god's might spells The most important things is that the players have to talk a bit about this issue and if the cleric is not a good "healer" because the "player" prefer another game style, the others can "be prepared" to have "potions" and "retreat action" ready to be used
Kursk 04-02-07, 12:13 PM	They can't simply charge into battle like the fighter or blast things with abandon like the wizard because there's a responsibility on their part to keep their comrades on their feet. How much do you agree with this statement and feel like that's how it exists in your gaming group? Depends on who the Cleric's Deity is. As a DM I do make the player RP a Divine caster and the Deity they choose greatly influences HOW they are played. That is the balancing factor in my campaign. If it isn't a good god of healing or the like then your statement would of course not factor in as you laid out.
Daydreamer 04-02-07, 12:14 PM	Often times doing combat damage is better than healing-unless someones close to dropping or your abilities dont match up with/are prepared for the type of enemies your fighting.
Comus 04-02-07, 12:54 PM	Often times doing combat damage is better than healing-unless someones close to dropping or your abilities dont match up with/are prepared for the type of enemies your fighting. This is true - stopping an enemy before he can get off a spell or attack means you don't have to heal the damage it would have caused.
Ioosef 04-02-07, 12:55 PM	Often times doing combat damage is better than healing-unless someones close to dropping or your abilities dont match up with/are prepared for the type of enemies your fighting. I agree with that statement, I'm playing a cleric of Fharlanghn 24 and in combat he does more damage than the fighter (you gotta love Giant Size), but sometimes I spend most of the combat buffing or healing the rest of the party, mainly the wizard, since he barely knows how to protect himself, or even play a wizard (he's been playing a wizard since level 10 and still blasts half the party when he knows that the enemies are immune to what he throws at them).
Zandolit 04-02-07, 01:44 PM	I'm a fan of playing the heal-bot. I find it more rewarding to keep my party members in in good working order rather than doing damage myself. I realize that's a bit weird, but it's fun for me. :) When I play the party healer, as I see my job my main function is to heal. When I have an action to take in combat, first priority is to heal injured teammates. Two exceptions to this. If someone with high hit points has taken minor damage (like the 200 HP fighter just lost 4 of them,) it can wait and I'll use the action for something more pressing. Alternately, if we're fighting something that for whatever reason only I am able to hit consistently (resistances, damage reductions, susceptible only to magical attacks, whatever,) I'll focus on getting the opponent out of the way as quickly as possible and then heal damage later-- this has only happened a couple of times, and balances out other things that magic doesn't work well against. If I have an available action and don't have anyone to heal for whatever reason, whether I do damage or buff the party depends on the situation and how things are going. If I'm high in the initiative order I'll usually buff the party rather than trying to get early hits in, but it's situational. In general, my preferred strategy is to keep people as close to full hit points as possible all the time. You never know when you're going to have another encounter, and I hate starting a combat with people injured, because it starts me off at a disadvantage and I have to scramble a lot more to keep them functional. If everyone is pretty close to healthy at the start of the battle I have a lot more leeway for situations like a teammate who I need to take a round to move closer to before I can heal. It makes my life a lot easier. Full hit points isn't always possible, but my party members should be able to take several solid hits before being in any serious trouble if I'm filling my healer role the way I like to. Also, my party would never ask for healing. Ever. They'd be a hit point away from unconsciousness, still claim to be "fine," and say I was wasting spells by healing them. I found it was better just to have a general policy of keeping everyone healed rather trying to get my party to accurately judge when they needed help, since they were more likely to just tough it out. I realize that's a debatable point and some people prefer to heal only when absolutely necessary and save spells for other things, but keeping everyone as healthy as possible works best for me.
Eximus 04-02-07, 03:31 PM	Yeesh... The cleric in my old campaign was HORRIBLE!! We were actually better off when he didn't show up, he was that bad. His philosophy towards healing was "Hey that guys is almost dead, but if I kill the thing that is attacking him, I won't have to heal him, never mind the fact that there are atleast 2 more combatants on the field." Scared the bejeebus out of me a few times...
RainerNader 04-02-07, 03:33 PM	You guys do bring up good points about healing during battle, and how it can often be an inefficient endeavor. However, my question was spawned from a personal experience of mine in one of my D&D games, in which we're all 3rd level. At that point characters are still fairly brittle, given that a few longsword hits can still bring them down. Essentially my experience was this: in our last session, the cleric often rushed into battle and was unable to provide the party with much healing support. So there were several times where our characters were dropped into the negatives and there was a mad scramble to try any desperate measures, like untrained Heal checks and the like, just to keep them from dying. The player of the cleric did nothing 'wrong', per se... he had been portraying his character as a "righteous crusader" type that would rush into battle all along. But I could sense a level of frustration from the other players, as there was some expectation that the cleric would still act in the way some of you guys described -- playing more of a support role whose primary focus was keeping the party on their feet. There was also an especially difficult encounter where the cleric rushed in the first round, got critted twice, and was dropped into the negatives... the party ultimately ended up grabbing his body and retreating because we were now basically screwed. That being said, as the party continues to gain levels, it's possible that healing in mid-battle will likely become a lot less urgent matter, and the issue will resolve itself. Likewise, eventually the cleric won't be the sole source of healing... rangers, paladins, and bards get cure spells, rogues get Use Magic Device, monks get Wholeness of Body, etc. And the party's wealth will increase to the point where cure potions can be a lot more available. So, we'll see. I just thought it was interesting to see if people thought there was a clear "philosophy of responsibility" when it came to playing a cleric.
Daydreamer 04-02-07, 03:40 PM	Being irresponsible could actually take the form of not healing-its very situational what a cleric should do. A cleric is definately a piece with more options than most in the game, and as such requires a good tactical sense to know when to do what. But sometimes being responsible might mean being the combat agressor. Though if a party member is struggling, bc of the clerics abilities he is more responsible than most to try and help that party member via whatever means the situation and his abilities at the time dictate.
OravennasBrother 04-02-07, 03:57 PM	Been a while since our group had a Cleric. However the players geerally play AS A TEAM, so when a cleric is part of the group they tend to keep a fair bit of healing in reserve and use it when needed.
mlund 04-02-07, 04:16 PM	Clerics are incredibly powerful as team players. Most of the times when I've seen a cleric fail to shine brilliantly like this it has been a matter of play-style or play skill. Many are the times where I've seen a cleric completely ignore battle control spells and party buffs to charge headlong into some spell-prep package dedicated to becoming the second fighter or just picked in a haphazard fashion as they all get channeled into healing spells in a robotic fashion. Most powerful spells I see so often overlooked by Clerics, especially between levels 3-6: Magic Weapon Align Weapon Find Traps Hold Person Restoration, Lesser Silence Obviously some of these get left behind depending on your party make-up. When everyone has +1 Enhancement Bonuses already, Magic Weapon isn't needed to get by DR. If you have a Rogue / Scout / Beguiler there is no need to Find Traps. But I play a lot of Living Greyhawk, and tables get put together almost at random. It is an all too common occurrence to have the Cleric's player never bother to assess the abilities and composition of his or her party before preparing spells. The number of casualties I've witnessed due to no one having a Silence on hand for an enemy caster or a Hold Person for the Uber-Thug with auto-surprise is painful. Charging into battle against Fiends without Align Weapon is pretty upsetting too, honestly. - Marty Lund
Cardinal Teplin 04-02-07, 06:22 PM	There are lots of ways to play a cleric. The important thing to avoid a mismatch between the amount of healing the party thinks the cleric should do, and the amount the cleric thinks they should do. It's very handy to have a cleric who takes responsibility for keeping the rest of the party on their feet, but it's not the only way to play, and depending on the party and players, it may not even be the most effective. If you have big expectations of your cleric, you need to clear them with your cleric.
Azezel 04-02-07, 07:54 PM	My Cleric/Favoured Soul does not wear armour (doesn't make sense in-character), has low STR and CON, but High DEX (an Elf). Long story short - the front line is a bad place for her to be, which means that healing the tanks is dificult in combat. However - High DEX affords a good init possition, so it's often possible to get off a Divine Favour or Shield of Faith before the front liners get stuck in. Then it's generally a case of standing back and letting fly with the Longbow and Fire Domain spells. However - after combat is the real key to Clericing. A wand of Lesser Vigour costs 750gp, and can restore 550 hp (11hp per charge). It is the single best investment a low-to-mid level Cleric can make. I use it after every fight, so we are always at full hp. Serriously, 1gp and 3sp per hit point restored. And it means that the Clerics (two in the party) can save Cure spells for when they are needed in combat.
Goldenmaxter 04-02-07, 07:57 PM	A great cleric that I play has the domains of Fire and Metal (from Gond in Forgotten Realms :P ). I either bash in some skulls with my warhammer, stop my teamates from slaughtering each other with calm emotions, pump up my teamates with some spells, or kill enemies with my spells. I am also the team weapon/armorsmith. With the craft magical arms/armor feat, my teamates value my help. No matter what you do as a Cleric, you can't go wrong.
Hack and Smasher 04-02-07, 09:00 PM	When i play on a scale of one to ten i'd say a six, genrally i heal after combat and load up on buffs, hold persons and animate dead. Healing in combat tends to be a waste of time, usally better off just stabbing the problem in the face, and if you don't like you play a heal cleric.
Drodain 04-02-07, 09:06 PM	I'm usually the cleric. I take the domains healing and strength usually. I try to take care of them as best as possible. I've used up all my spells on healing on more than one occasion. But its okay, because everyone else in the group loves to powergame and I prefer to roleplay. Being a support character I just help them.
Nephlite 04-02-07, 09:17 PM	You guys do bring up good points about healing during battle, and how it can often be an inefficient endeavor. However, my question was spawned from a personal experience of mine in one of my D&D games, in which we're all 3rd level. At that point characters are still fairly brittle, given that a few longsword hits can still bring them down. Essentially my experience was this: in our last session, the cleric often rushed into battle and was unable to provide the party with much healing support. So there were several times where our characters were dropped into the negatives and there was a mad scramble to try any desperate measures, like untrained Heal checks and the like, just to keep them from dying. The player of the cleric did nothing 'wrong', per se... he had been portraying his character as a "righteous crusader" type that would rush into battle all along. But I could sense a level of frustration from the other players, as there was some expectation that the cleric would still act in the way some of you guys described -- playing more of a support role whose primary focus was keeping the party on their feet. There was also an especially difficult encounter where the cleric rushed in the first round, got critted twice, and was dropped into the negatives... the party ultimately ended up grabbing his body and retreating because we were now basically screwed. That being said, as the party continues to gain levels, it's possible that healing in mid-battle will likely become a lot less urgent matter, and the issue will resolve itself. Likewise, eventually the cleric won't be the sole source of healing... rangers, paladins, and bards get cure spells, rogues get Use Magic Device, monks get Wholeness of Body, etc. And the party's wealth will increase to the point where cure potions can be a lot more available. So, we'll see. I just thought it was interesting to see if people thought there was a clear "philosophy of responsibility" when it came to playing a cleric. Was he wearing full plate yet? That would make difference how much he is hit. Remember: he is just as fragile as a fighter in same armor (with 1 hp less per level).
Bopple 04-02-07, 09:51 PM	There's a school of thought that clerics are essentially the most powerful base class, balanced by the fact that they have to act as "their brother's keeper." This proposition is true, imo. Though a cleric is the most powerful class, he must heal allies from time to time. He's got the best offensive, but sometimes he has to hold it back and use his precious combat round to save others(and many hate this). But it's not important if it's right or wrong. They can't simply charge into battle like the fighter or blast things with abandon like the wizard because there's a responsibility on their part to keep their comrades on their feet. This contradicts the above proposition. One should use his resources to the best of his ability, for the very good of the party. Why does he idle and waste his resources, while his allies are still in good health? He is the most powerful character in the party, but do nothing but wait until allies get hurt and then go to heal them?
Corpsekin 04-12-07, 09:27 AM	my cleric is very responsible, if the question was 'who is responsible for this atrosity' that is :D
Leilond 04-12-07, 09:43 AM	You guys do bring up good points about healing during battle, and how it can often be an inefficient endeavor. However, my question was spawned from a personal experience of mine in one of my D&D games, in which we're all 3rd level. At that point characters are still fairly brittle, given that a few longsword hits can still bring them down. Essentially my experience was this: in our last session, the cleric often rushed into battle and was unable to provide the party with much healing support. So there were several times where our characters were dropped into the negatives and there was a mad scramble to try any desperate measures, like untrained Heal checks and the like, just to keep them from dying. The player of the cleric did nothing 'wrong', per se... he had been portraying his character as a "righteous crusader" type that would rush into battle all along. But I could sense a level of frustration from the other players, as there was some expectation that the cleric would still act in the way some of you guys described -- playing more of a support role whose primary focus was keeping the party on their feet. There was also an especially difficult encounter where the cleric rushed in the first round, got critted twice, and was dropped into the negatives... the party ultimately ended up grabbing his body and retreating because we were now basically screwed. That being said, as the party continues to gain levels, it's possible that healing in mid-battle will likely become a lot less urgent matter, and the issue will resolve itself. Likewise, eventually the cleric won't be the sole source of healing... rangers, paladins, and bards get cure spells, rogues get Use Magic Device, monks get Wholeness of Body, etc. And the party's wealth will increase to the point where cure potions can be a lot more available. So, we'll see. I just thought it was interesting to see if people thought there was a clear "philosophy of responsibility" when it came to playing a cleric. The mistake was form the players that, like you say But I could sense a level of frustration from the other players, as there was some expectation that the cleric would still act in the way some of you guys described Why did they have that EXPECTATION? Did the cleric player never told them to expect that from him? Or do they simply assumed that the cleric must be "at the service of the party"? "Buy your healing potions and stay alive, I will use my cure to restore who is still wounded after the battle if I'll have unused spell" This can be a totally right response a cleric could give... surely not a cleric of a particular benevolent and kind God, but (example) a neutral cleric of a neutral God of war can easly give that answer to those that ask for cure DURING battles
Radijs 04-12-07, 10:35 AM	I suppose it depends on the opposition. When facing a few strong opponents eliminating one of those will be a lot more significant and will quickly become a more interesting option then healing. However when facing large amounts of opponents it becomes more interesting to keep the heavy hitters upright and cleavin/casting.
WayneTheGame 04-12-07, 11:01 AM	You know, this actually rings true. Too much advice I see about clerics is to the effect of "Screw the rest of them, buff yourself and outshine everybody else!" instead of playing to what IMO is the cleric's real role in the party: Support. If you ask me the Cleric's job is to make everyone else better, and help out if he can as a second-line fighter (or front-line depending on the cheese you use), but that role is secondary to making sure everyone else an function. The cleric is the one who keeps the group going, not a flashy showboat who gets his companions killed because he's too busy trying to prove why he's the best.
daggeroflath 04-12-07, 11:13 AM	They can't simply charge into battle like the fighter or blast things with abandon like the wizard because there's a responsibility on their part to keep their comrades on their feet. In our last D&D game, we shared the pain. The paladin would do some of the healing, my mystic theurge would do a bit more and the druid would handle the rest. We all had a few healing spells memorised and made a few emergency potions, so we were good most of the time. When someone died, that was when we dusted off the ring of three wishes that we saved for party resurrections. That way it was a few less buffs I could cast, didn't prevent the paladin from being heroic and a few less powerful blasts from the druid. Come to think of it 50% of the party had healing abilities and one of the other three regenerated naturally. We were pretty good for hit points most of the time.
BloodDragon 04-12-07, 11:24 AM	My Mystic Thruege has been the band-aid of the group thus far. The other cleric in the party is pretty much our front line fighter. Scrolls of Close Wounds (Spell Comp.) invaluable.
Toxic_Shaman 04-12-07, 12:18 PM	So I just wanted to get the peanut gallery's opinion on this issue... Generally every party has at least one cleric, or other divine caster (Favored Soul, Druid, etc) who they depend on for healing. There's a school of thought that clerics are essentially the most powerful base class, balanced by the fact that they have to act as "their brother's keeper." They can't simply charge into battle like the fighter or blast things with abandon like the wizard because there's a responsibility on their part to keep their comrades on their feet. How much do you agree with this statement and feel like that's how it exists in your gaming group? I don't agree with this statement at all. It depends on the philosophy of the deity the cleric worships, the character's personality, and the situation the group finds themselves in. If the cleric worships a deity that espouses non-violence and healing anyone that needs it, then yeah, that's probably the role that the cleric should take. A cleric of a Deity of War might be happier if his cleric were up front, inspiring the others by leading the charge. The deity beloved by thieves might want something in return for any healing.
daggeroflath 04-12-07, 12:33 PM	I don't agree with this statement at all. It depends on the philosophy of the deity the cleric worships, the character's personality, and the situation the group finds themselves in. Well yes, that fuels the character motivation but what about the player motivation. Though this varies with the game and the players in it (your style and approach works well with your group no doubt), you should think long and hard before valuing good roleplaying over helping your friends have a good time. Unless I knew the other player was the kind of person who would handle it well, I wouldn't tell a friend of mine "sorry, my character is going to let yours die because I'm a good roleplayer". I'd dig deep into my character's psyche to figure out why he's acting in the interests of the group and find a reason. Any character of sufficient complexity can be imagined doing just about anything. This isn't meant to be a slight, just to bring up that other groups have different (equally valid) styles which value teamwork over roleplaying.
PHGraves 04-12-07, 02:32 PM	They can't simply charge into battle like the fighter or blast things with abandon like the wizard because there's a responsibility on their part to keep their comrades on their feet. How much do you agree with this statement and feel like that's how it exists in your gaming group?I routinely play the party healer, be it Cleric, Paladin, or Wizard with Arcane Disciple/Spontaneous Healer feats. There is something to be said about the uber-healing, potion-brewing, I've-made-so-many-wands-of-CMW-I'm-a-level-behind-everyone-else set: Hells no. If you were meant to never get stuck into combat, you would have been given a BAB progression at least as bad as the Wizard class. This is not to say that the above concept isn't valid, it is simply one concept out of many. Having been forced into it more than once, I can say that it rankles when a party looks to you as their own walking HP-dispensor.
Droma 04-12-07, 07:22 PM	I play a warlike cleric but if my party is in danger of dieing or I would be more usefull buffing then thats what I do for that fight. Even if I wanted to play a more supportive role instead of a front line role I would probably still act in much the same way except with a different spell selection. Your playing a cleric not a wand of cureX. You should do what would help the party the most in that fight. Bash in the monsters head, heal, use restoration spells, dispell the magic of the enemy, bull's strength or enlarge person spells on your fighter. Just standing back and waiting for your party to take damage can be more detrimental than using your buffs or offensive abilities to prevent the enemy from doing serious damage. Example if your facing devils aligning your parties weapons is probably a better option than waiting for them to take a hit. As far as in combat healing I always try and maintain one un-used spell of each of my 2 highest spell slots for emergency use on dieing characters. Otherwise Im fairly free as far as my spell usage goes. I do have a wand of cure-light right now and probably going to buy a higher lvl wand later for out of combat healing. My fellow players have invested in belts of healing as well for those emergency situations where i just cant get to them.
Max_Graeves 04-12-07, 07:34 PM	My current character is a NE cleric of Nerrul, so I'm not big on the healing thing, and the party knows it...I've got a few low-level heal spells memorized for after combat, but the party mostly relies on supplies and the like to recover from wounds. Plus my character is the "tank" of the party (our party's a little unbalanced that way), so I tend to cast more buffs or debuffs than healing spells.
Aminvelos 04-12-07, 09:45 PM	Our cleric sucks, she doesn't know when to heal and doesn't want to read the rules, thankfully pelor, another diety, or a wizard pulled her into another dimension and a gnome barbarian popped out. After we fought off the ants, and she lost to a warblade in hand to hand combat who had half her hit points she decided she wanted to go back to her home in the woods. Ok maybe it wasn't so great
celtredleg 04-12-07, 10:23 PM	I almost always play a cleric of Thor, when I play a cleric. Thats just more a bonk on head with hammer sort of a guy to follow. But, I stiill am part of the team and will not let somebody die that I can prevent. If I was in a party that expected me to just be a heal bot, I would make a fighter instead.
Saberus 04-13-07, 01:18 AM	He's improved remarkably in our current campaign. A true healing monster. Got himself decked out w/ feats in the CD, augment healing, sacred boost, extra turning for the SB. He couldn't turn an undead fly, but he can heal the :censored: outta it! We're only level 3, on the doorstep of 4, and other than him we have a couple potions(so far only used on NPC's) and ONE wand of cure light that the party chipped in for at level two, it still has 40-odd charges left. He's also damned efficient at keeping track of our wounds, and patching us up w/ minimal waste of healing.
draco1119 04-13-07, 03:58 AM	I play a healer, and at this point, not a very good one. On the bright side, I get to second as the party tank, so Righteous Might and Bear's Endurance, Mass are required. I have a LOT of Mass buffs, and only a couple that are personal or touch range, so I end up buffing/healing everyone else while I'm girding for battle. :D
Bedevere 04-13-07, 04:43 AM	The game I am in currently has: a multiclassed paladin/Kensai/Soul knife (yeah... I know....), a multiclassed Ranger/scout/something or other, a DMPC Psion telepath/thrall herd (actually run well, though....) and my character, a wizard/Psion telepath. We all share healing. The paladin through lay on hands and a great charisma score, the ranger through a wand of cure generic wounds, the DMPC has a druid as his follower from thrall herd, who keeps getting forgotten about... but my wizard is actually the party healer for the most part. I took the wonderful feat 'Arcane Disciple', added the healing domain to my class list, and while I can only cast each one once a day, they are enough. We work VERY well together, so minimise the damage we take, and so far have always had enough healing to get back to full after anything we fight. The rangers wand has hardly been used yet.... :) Healing is not about power, versatility, or even careful builds. It begins with careful play. Taking 20 points of damage to deal 20 is rarely a good exchange. If you have 20 temporary hit points, or increased reach, then the chances of actually taking real damage greatly reduces. The best healing is the buffing you cast in round one. :)
graddlin 04-13-07, 04:54 AM	I always play the Cleric in my group, and, as a whole, I think of it as the most important job in the game. Who is going to keep the others kicking when the BBEG casts Storm of Vengeance? Who is going to heal the Fighter when he takes a sound thrashing from "that big guy who said he was bigger than me"? Playing a Cleric is quite rewarding to me. I absolutely adore the spells, love the ability to Turn Undead, and need nothing more than my ability to turn stones into +1 projectiles. Besides, gals love a man in nice robes with the ability to cast a spell called Bull's Strength. Know what I mean?:D Take Care, friends!
draco1119 04-13-07, 08:02 AM	Besides, gals love a man in nice robes with the ability to cast a spell called Bull's Strength. Know what I mean?:D And Bear's Endurance. You forgot about the marathon sessions.
graddlin 04-13-07, 08:29 AM	And Bear's Endurance. You forgot about the marathon sessions. NICE!! That will be going down on the "to memorize" list from now on. Take care, friend!:D
solbergb 04-13-07, 09:59 AM	I dunno - is it really that efficient to heal during combat? It might be better to just fight, and use wands to patch up in between combat.:) The answer is complicated. It is really, really inefficient to have a party member die in the middle of the combat. Healing is really good at taking somebody from a "danger of dying" situation to "he can swing away safely now" situation. (the other primary way is battlefield control, the arcanist's forte). One reason for this is it is reliable, it ALWAYS works. The bad guy may only have 1hp left and be the last combatant, but you can miss, or he might prove immune to your attack, etc. Nothing is certain to work in D&D except healing and some kinds of battlefield control spells (eg, ottiluke's sphere on a willing target). You rolling a "1" when you chose to attack instead of heal is just like having the nerull warrior crit with his scythe - it causes a random death, but the difference is that you could have chosen another action that would always work (healing enough that he's not in danger of getting killed next round). The flipside of that though is...if healing will NOT be enough to save the life, do ANYTHING else. Even a small chance of preventing the death is better than none. If nobody is in danger of death though, or likely to soon be in danger of death, then it is obviously better to take an action that either harms the enemies or improves the party's ability to harm the enemies or improve the ability of the party to ignore enemy attacks and keep swinging. That dynamic tension is something all clerics who accept the default "divine caster" role pay close attention to, round after round. A "medic/support" character is usually not very capable of offense, so they trade off between healing and buffing, but the dynamic is pretty much the same. Such a character NEEDS to prepare powerful buffing spells, or they will not be very useful when the party is doing well. The other extreme the "melee or archer cleric" model will usually toss off a combat heal to save a life, although the victim may need to be near the cleric at the time. Note that I don't mention druids. Druids suck at incombat healing - even paladins are usually better, if only 1/day when they do their big "lay on hands" surge. The druid primary healing mode after level 2 and before they get the "heal" spell is "summon unicorn" once they exit level 2, and that's slow and limited. Druids are like melee clerics or rebuking clerics. They can help out after combat, don't expect much during combat. They do have some battlefield control spells though, and the summons+companion ARE battlefield control, so a party with a druid may not need as much combat healing as one without it. It is also inefficient to be unable to remove ability drain/damage, blindness, insanity, enchantments, etc. All parties need powerful out of combat healing too, and clerics have the best spell list for this. A party without potent incombat healing has to have its individuals be more careful. If they are in danger of death, they must get themselves out of trouble, they can't count on being rescued by the healer. I have played many, many games without a "real healer" and generally it went fine, but you have to play very differently from when you've got one of those guys with you who can heal the entire party back to full with one action after you've been hit with a maximized fireball. (the reason some people go into full-on medic-support builds is that a character really designed for healing does it a lot better than an iconic cleric, almost as much better as a cleric does compared to a druid or paladin) Most healing isn't designed to keep up with incoming damage. It's designed to prevent deaths. A dedicated medic support build can often keep up with the incoming damage until spell slots run out. It's an amazing luxury to have, especially if the build has potent buffs to bless the party with when healing isn't needed.
Legolamb 04-13-07, 12:13 PM	After wandering off alone and getting my druid killed, I decided to base my next character (Level 7) on overall party needs. Since the only healing ability remaining was from an Archivist, I decided to come back as a cleric dedicated to combat healing. With +3 chainmail and a +4 heavy steel shield (booty in the group's inventory), my 24 AC allows me to remain within healing distance of the party fighters.
danielinthewolvesden 04-13-07, 02:43 PM	So I just wanted to get the peanut gallery's opinion on this issue... Generally every party has at least one cleric, or other divine caster (Favored Soul, Druid, etc) who they depend on for healing. There's a school of thought that clerics are essentially the most powerful base class, balanced by the fact that they have to act as "their brother's keeper." They can't simply charge into battle like the fighter or blast things with abandon like the wizard because there's a responsibility on their part to keep their comrades on their feet. How much do you agree with this statement and feel like that's how it exists in your gaming group? I "fell on the handgrenade" for my last gaming group and ran a HEALER for 20 levels. But you make an excellent point. The lone Divine caster needs must act as the Heal-bot in any party with good teamwork. However, I disagree that the Cleric is "the most powerful base class". It is certainly one of the "top ten" but the druid, Wizard, Psion and Artificer all beat out the cleric. Sure, if you know who your foe is going to be- so that you can tailor your cleric with the right domains and such, and blow all your turns on divinemetamagic self buffs and it is a one on one one shot arena battle, and 20th level- the Cleric does pretty good.:rolleyes: But IRL games are not played like that. IRL, no one wants to play the heal-bot, even tho it certainly is a very powerful class. Scads of threads with DM's and party memebrs complaining "no one wants to play a divine caster" are legion, whilst threads complaining about the "CoDzilla" in the party are super rare.
tennyocelestia 04-14-07, 01:24 AM	The cleric in our campaign definitely isn't the party's keeper. Oddly enough, I think our insane (literally) shadowcaster fills that role. Our cleric is a leg of the support system, but she's more like the helpful little sister than the watchful big brother. A scuttle up, hug you and make you feel better, then run away sort of thing.
Toxic_Shaman 04-14-07, 11:56 AM	Well yes, that fuels the character motivation but what about the player motivation. Though this varies with the game and the players in it (your style and approach works well with your group no doubt), you should think long and hard before valuing good roleplaying over helping your friends have a good time. Unless I knew the other player was the kind of person who would handle it well, I wouldn't tell a friend of mine "sorry, my character is going to let yours die because I'm a good roleplayer". I'd dig deep into my character's psyche to figure out why he's acting in the interests of the group and find a reason. Any character of sufficient complexity can be imagined doing just about anything. This isn't meant to be a slight, just to bring up that other groups have different (equally valid) styles which value teamwork over roleplaying. Sure, in general D&D is a cooperative game. I just don't view it as the cleric's job to necessarily turn himself into a healing dispenser full time at the expense of doing anything else. If he is in a party, he presumably has reasons for being with, and risking his lives with these other people, and has a vested interest in keeping them alive. But that doesn't mean he should always stand in the back waiting for someone to need a cure spell. If I'm playing a Cleric of Kord, he's likely to be a lead from the front type, and he's going to go into melee a good bit. He'll do what he can not to let anyone die around him, and will do his best to heal whomever he can in combat, but he's not going to stand back and do nothing else but heal. The rest of the party is going to have to realize that he is going to fight in melee, and if during a battle someone needs healing, he'll try to break off and help, but sometimes it may not be possible. And since you bring up meta-gaming, the Cleric's player has a responsibility to allow the rest of the players to have fun, but that's a two way street. The Cleric's player needs to have fun too. Sure its fun to play the party barbarian, recklessly leaping into combat without a care in the world, knowing that you have a cleric standing in the back waiting, ready to throw out Cure and Heal spells to keep you alive while you continue to be the hero. That sure is fun for the Barbarian, but the Cleric's player is likely to get bored.
daggeroflath 04-14-07, 12:07 PM	I just don't view it as the cleric's job to necessarily turn himself into a healing dispenser full time at the expense of doing anything else. Perish the thought, but the cleric should find ways in which his character can help out the group. Whether that's killing the enemies before they make the other people need healing or healing the others so they can go on killing the enemy. That's a two way street. The Cleric's player needs to have fun too. Sure its fun to play the party barbarian, recklessly leaping into combat without a care in the world, knowing that you have a cleric standing in the back waiting, ready to throw out Cure and Heal spells to keep you alive while you continue to be the hero. That sure is fun for the Barbarian, but the Cleric's player is likely to get bored. Well the barbarian (and their player) certainly need to find ways to help out the rest of the group. Maybe they can take the track feat if there isn't a ranger or take one of the many "dirty jobs" that a party has. In short, people should think of their party as a team and work for everyone's benefit. Responsibility doesn't begin and end with the cleric.
parad0cz 04-14-07, 02:07 PM	I think you are right, by design the cleric/druid was meant more powerful because part of his power is meant to be used up on others. They usually get CoDzilla when they completely ignore this aspect. It was a good thought on WOTC to design it thus, with a bit of inspired thinking i believe, what with the very real issue pre3rd of the 'Short Straw has to play the Cleric' phenomenon. Problem is, you really CANT balence something with Role Playing aspects alone, becuase each DM is so varied in doing it. Now i will agree, a Cleric of Kord would probably have a different heal theory than a Cleric of Pelor, a Cleric of Heronious different than a Cleric of Yollanda. Each character might have their own idea of what CO Cleric that they want to play. But the thing is, you are a team. It may be hard to think of one of the Big 4 type characters being a support role, until you think of ALL characters in a support role. Clerics, and Wizards to some extent, some of the best ways of using spells are not Blast X, but Buff Party. Most of the timie you are better served casting for your party. The Healbot is an intrinsic, and a necessary part of a D&D party. Taking him out requires massive change to the system. So what do we do? What if everyone want to be Diana Ross all the time, and no one want to do any Supremes? Enter the DMPC. Argh you say? Well, sometimes it necessary. I play with 3 people parties regularly, and that tends to leave major holes. But, I do it... different. So you need a support guy. A healer. And what kind of class do you think of when you think support? One who gets forgotten when you think of healers? A bard. I find a bard gives a lovely mix of Support Magic, Healing, and "Screw you players if you were a little less hextordanged selfish you might have more decent healing". You as a DM have a enormous control valve if you control the rate of healing in the party. If they complain, hey, they can roll a cleric!:-P On a less miserly note, i also prefer PrClassing into a Warweaver. By level 8, if your party has put up with robins minstral, you have the Uber SUpport carrier, dropping cure spells through the weave, casting Mass Buff spells at a 4 level discount! You'll hardly care when after the battle you are dripping ichor and exhausted that he is calmly folding his chair and closing his guitar case... Thats my wandering two cents
daggeroflath 04-14-07, 02:14 PM	Ask not what your party can do for you...
danielinthewolvesden 04-14-07, 03:06 PM	Clerics, and Wizards to some extent, some of the best ways of using spells are not Blast X, but Buff Party. Most of the timie you are better served casting for your party. The Healbot is an intrinsic, and a necessary part of a D&D party. Taking him out requires massive change to the system. So what do we do? What if everyone want to be Diana Ross all the time, and no one want to do any Supremes? Enter the DMPC. Argh you say? Well, sometimes it necessary. I play with 3 people parties regularly, and that tends to leave major holes. But, I do it... different. So you need a support guy. A healer. Well, you have three MUCH better options than the dreaded DMPC. 1. Let the players suck it up. It was their CHOICE to play a spotlight PC, so they should learn there are disads to that role, too. If you cover their mistakes with a DMPC, they will never learn. 2. In a small group, let them go for Gestalt. 3. In a small group, let them have cohorts, hirelings, etc- NPCs run by the PLAYERS
daggeroflath 04-14-07, 03:18 PM	3. In a small group, let them have cohorts, hirelings, etc- NPCs run by the PLAYERS I know this is off topic for the thread. However, you have cohorts and hirelings ran by the players? That's interesting. I don't think I've ever heard of that before.
parad0cz 04-14-07, 03:45 PM	Argh, how do you delete a doublepost?
daggeroflath 04-14-07, 04:03 PM	Argh, how do you delete a doublepost? See where it says edit under your posts. One of the options there is to delete it.
Saytr 04-15-07, 01:17 AM	My Mystic Thruege has been the band-aid of the group thus far. The other cleric in the party is pretty much our front line fighter. Scrolls of Close Wounds (Spell Comp.) invaluable. A scroll takes a standard action to use. Even if the spell is an immediate action spell. Sorry to burst bubbles and such..
Dragonsblood 04-15-07, 01:40 AM	In past games I've been in, clerics have typically tried to stay away from the band-aid role. Domains such as war and strength are popular. In fact in the last group I was in, the cleric took power attack and used a spiked chain. His strength was higher than his wisdom (18 and 17), and at the end of the day he dealt the most damage even before he would buff himself. Because a PC's effectiveness is the same at 10hp or 50hp, healing is better done at the end of the battle unless there is a risk of death. Each turn spent healing is another turn that could've killed another monster, and healing after battle can efficiently be done with a wand of CLW to save spell slots for buffs.
danielinthewolvesden 04-15-07, 02:41 AM	I know this is off topic for the thread. However, you have cohorts and hirelings ran by the players? That's interesting. I don't think I've ever heard of that before. Of course. I have a Cohort in one game and he is 99.99% run by me. The DM does do an occassional "funny comment" by him. In fact, that's the normal way of doing it, except that the DM is supposed to step in and intervene whenever the Players have the NPC "volunteer" for a suicide mission.:D Every group I have been in for over 30 years does it that way. It is "DMPCitis" that has it done the other way.
daggeroflath 04-15-07, 07:26 AM	Of course. I have a Cohort in one game and he is 99.99% run by me. The DM does do an occassional "funny comment" by him. In fact, that's the normal way of doing it, except that the DM is supposed to step in and intervene whenever the Players have the NPC "volunteer" for a suicide mission.:D Every group I have been in for over 30 years does it that way. It is "DMPCitis" that has it done the other way. I'm just stunned because I've never heard of it before and I've played about half as long as you have. It's a really good idea, and it gets rid of the need to have DMPCs (Barring, as I always say, round robin games). Now that I think about it, it's really obvious, but I've always thought the DM has to play every NPC... if the PCs control themselves, their henchmen, their animal companions... oh god, that makes the game so much easier. Thanks for bringing that up, it's a real help.
kingraa 04-15-07, 11:59 AM	I play a fairly straight up cleric (though I'll be taking a level in warlock and then levels in eldritch theurge to diversify), and I will heal whoever I can whenever they need it, but not if it puts me at excessive risk - e.g. I'm not going to leave combat with a load of mounted goblins to heal someone even though my AC is 21 (at level 4) so I probably wouldn't be hit. Mmn maybe I should start leaving combat to heal. But yeh, party includes some weird character types...
Zandolit 04-15-07, 09:33 PM	If nobody is in danger of death though, or likely to soon be in danger of death, then it is obviously better to take an action that either harms the enemies or improves the party's ability to harm the enemies or improve the ability of the party to ignore enemy attacks and keep swinging. Sure, sometimes, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that's "obvious." I think it's actually a major judgment call. The line between "danger of death" and not being in such danger is not always very apparent. During one particularly difficult battle, the plan was for my healer character to heal just one party member who we knew would be taking a lot of damage (she was the only one with psionic abilities so had to be in this position... long story, but it was unavoidable.) I was hitting her with a Cure Critical Wounds every round, but she still took so much damage during a single round that she died. (Much to the surprise of our DM, actually.) That's a pretty extreme example, but stuff happens fast in combat. I think it's a perfectly valid judgment call to heal a party member even if they aren't in immediate danger of death. Not going to work in every situation... nothing works in every situation... but it can be a good idea. Personally, my preference is to try to keep people in as good shape as possible.
Cael 04-15-07, 11:17 PM	So I just wanted to get the peanut gallery's opinion on this issue... Generally every party has at least one cleric, or other divine caster (Favored Soul, Druid, etc) who they depend on for healing. There's a school of thought that clerics are essentially the most powerful base class, balanced by the fact that they have to act as "their brother's keeper." They can't simply charge into battle like the fighter or blast things with abandon like the wizard because there's a responsibility on their part to keep their comrades on their feet. How much do you agree with this statement and feel like that's how it exists in your gaming group? I generally do not agree to this statement. If the Cleric wishes to be the band-aid, good on her. If not, that is her choice. Basically, I feel that no one has the right to expect someone else to be something that they want that person to be. If you want someone else to be a particular archetype, you should be playing that archetype. Thus, I am just as comfortable with a Cleric that charges into battle, Persistent Righteous Might/Divine Power at the ready, as I am with a Healer or a Blaster. To me, to act in any other manner simply shows arrogance and/or selfishness on my part.
AaronDireBear 04-16-07, 11:34 AM	Very! Whenever there was a party wipe, he was ALWAYS responsible :)
RainerNader 04-16-07, 03:35 PM	Hey guys, Just in case anyone cares about my continued personal experiences, we're now level 5 and there's almost no controversy. Most of the characters have 30+ hit points so now if the cleric hangs back to heal our wounds, we're mostly like "what are you doing, I still have over half my hp! go up there and kill something!" Hehe.
Flan 04-16-07, 10:20 PM	Just in case anyone cares about my continued personal experiences, we're now level 5 and there's almost no controversy. Most of the characters have 30+ hit points so now if the cleric hangs back to heal our wounds, we're mostly like "what are you doing, I still have over half my hp! go up there and kill something!" Hehe. Low levels you tend not to need much healing. The cleric usually just needs to be READY to heal when the situation demands it, usually once or maybe twice per combat when the enemy crits or gangs up on someone. Mid levels things can vary a lot between combats, sometimes you'll have to be healing every round, sometimes you can get away without healing in a fight, and a rogue with a cure wand can help a lot. Sound Lance is often a better choice than a cure as you can end the fight rounds sooner. Higher levels the party can be taking thousands of damage per fight and while you won't have to heal every round, you will probably have to toss a lot of heals out or everyone will die, and a rogue with cure wand is useless. If your opponent is hurt by Bolt of Glory and you can maximize it then that is often your best choice, but other than that you're probably a heal/buff bot. Since Heal caps at 150 and your tank can be taking more than 150 every round you may be stuck just casting that round after round hoping the opponents die before you run out of heals.
Kitaki 04-16-07, 11:19 PM	I actually went full out heal-bot one time, just to try it out, Vow of Non-Violence and Vow of Peace and all, then I found out the DM was doing an undead heavy campaign, suffice to say I killed almost everything.
WilwarinAndamar 04-17-07, 11:59 AM	I love our cleric. She and the Druid are the healers, but the cleric is the diplomat. She was the one who had to go up against an entire CE army and convince them to leave a village alone. When that didn't work, she led them into our trap where we killed them all. :D Also, she recently made an alignment change from CG to CN. She sent our Rogue down the wrong path in a dungeon/underground lair. He ended up eaten by a drider. :angelhide
Rosary 04-17-07, 01:23 PM	My first thought: WAY too responsible. As a cleric of the Sovereign Host (Eberron) He takes responsibility for: - The partys well-being, physically as well as spiritually - The mission at hand - The local community - Spreading the word ... like I think a true cleric would. And, oh yes, he heals as much as he possibly can. :)
Legolamb 04-19-07, 05:16 PM	It really makes sense to have someone available and paying attention with a couple of "Close Wounds" spells when the "stuff" hits the fan. Even better - 4th level spell in the Spell Compendium - "Delay Death!" Fantastic spell when your main tank is surrounded - allows them to continue beating down the enemy way into the negative hp's while the spell lasts. Of course you've got to be able to administer sufficient cures before the spell ends (metamagic extend spell helps!