Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pippero 05-18-04, 01:25 PM	My PC is a cleric oh Farlangh created at 7th level. Being 33 years old I would like to know if there is a way to avoid the penalties for reaching 35. Now the character is 9 level, i'm planning to go fo Divine Disciple but it's not easy to reach level 5 (for timeless body) in two years, because our DM uses a house rule that we have to train ONE WEEK PER LEVEL to level up. An option would be to reincarnate, but the probability to become a kobold or a small humanoid isn't so little. What do you suggest, is there any spell/potion or strange device/place to give me these couple of years I need to reach timeless body?
Lincoln Hills 05-18-04, 02:13 PM	In past editions, such items existed. The elixir of youth or the more effective (but riskier) potion of longevity were very popular items. However, 3.x includes no such items - in part because the handful of monsters that caused unnatural aging were given different abilities, ameliorating the need for age-reducing magic. It is still feasible in 3.x to travel to the Astral Plane, where time has no effect on one's physical state - but you must remain on the Astral Plane until you qualify, since you will otherwise age instantly (making up for the lost time) on leaving the Astral. Does your character have some sort of psychotic aversion to aging? I mean, a priest of Fharlanghn - like Kord's priesthood - would place some value on physical health, but aging is not all bad for a priest. (If having a few gray hairs means +1 to Wis and Cha, sign me up!)
SmiloDan 05-18-04, 02:16 PM	Um, maybe you can make a Alchemy skill check of DC 500 or whatever to make a potion of longevity from the Philosopher's Stone? Maybe a Wish or Miracle? Maybe go to the Astral Plane or somewhere else that has a Timeless descriptor? You'll also save money on food and water and blankies and pillows.
antibelpas 05-18-04, 02:28 PM	hmm don't play with DMs that require ridiculous training rules. Any training rule is just unrealistic, micromanaging, and just an attempt of a power hungry insecure DM to have complete control over whatever you do. get out!
password 05-18-04, 02:30 PM	Every Character has to die. I think you cant avoid it. ...BUT: a 20th level monk becomes an outsider, right? Do outsiders age?
Arakano 05-18-04, 02:47 PM	There is this rod that allows you to get to another dimension where you do not age... look it up in the DMG.
rmiller_nub 05-18-04, 02:51 PM	Oh propose a new magic item/potion to your DM that will reverse the effects of aging.
Gilhaelith 05-18-04, 03:45 PM	Originally posted by password Every Character has to die. I think you cant avoid it. ...BUT: a 20th level monk becomes an outsider, right? Do outsiders age? Outsider just means that the person/creature is from on other plane. Considering that most planes have some sort of time outsider still age. However in the case of a monk he get Timeless Body at lvl 17 so it doesn't matter.
Krelios 05-18-04, 04:00 PM	don't play with DMs that require ridiculous training rules. Any training rule is just unrealistic, micromanaging, and just an attempt of a power hungry insecure DM to have complete control over whatever you do. Or it's a DM trying to add a bit of realism. I don't use training rules in my campaigns, but I've played in those that do and it's perfectly fine. You do realize that with the physical penalties for aging come mental bonuses, right? A caster that ages really only gets better at casting--just shift from martially-oriented to spellcasting-oriented.
Shapedoctor 05-18-04, 04:35 PM	Jump into a pool of magma. You will cease to age.
Garble Willowwits 05-18-04, 05:33 PM	How about this? You let yourself be killed, get raised as undead or something and wear a ring of Gentle Repose. Voila no aging, nice body, good hit die, and other niceties. Chances are i'm missing some unforseen consequence though.
antibelpas 05-18-04, 05:54 PM	Originally posted by Krelios Or it's a DM trying to add a bit of realism. I don't use training rules in my campaigns, but I've played in those that do and it's perfectly fine. The problem is that training is COMPLETELY unrealistic. Oh, I just realized that I have enough xp to gain a level. I better start training! Illogical and unrealistic. The realistic thing to do, is to just level up. During the course of adventuring characters are constantly practicing...learning by doing! That is adventuring. Fighters wielding weapons, rogues utilizing skills, mages casting spells, and priests praying. The more you do it, the better you get at it....eg a level! A level simply represents a point in game mechanics when you've gotten better enough for it to mean something in terms of the game. On that note training is wrong. Sorry, no argument possible!
Arandar 05-18-04, 06:42 PM	Originally posted by Krelios Or it's a DM trying to add a bit of realism. I don't use training rules in my campaigns, but I've played in those that do and it's perfectly fine. You do realize that with the physical penalties for aging come mental bonuses, right? A caster that ages really only gets better at casting--just shift from martially-oriented to spellcasting-oriented. A week of training is next to no time, even for a level. After you've reached level 20, you've only spent 20 weeks (140 days (unless you use 10days, or something else)). That's not even half a year for reaching a point where you can destroy dragons? Sounds completely fine to me to have a week of rest after you level up.
UMCorian 05-18-04, 06:48 PM	A week of training is next to no time, even for a level. After you've reached level 20, you've only spent 20 weeks (140 days (unless you use 10days, or something else)). That's not even half a year for reaching a point where you can destroy dragons? Sounds completely fine to me to have a week of rest after you level up. Yeah man, I know what you mean... I'm level 8 and I've stood down an entire ARMY of orcs, ogres, bugbears, kobolds and goblins with my trusty AC 24 and my fellow party members. And another army is on its way... damn! I have no time to hit a practice dummy for a week in order to gain a level. I have to fight this second army and learn nothing! Tch... such is realistic life. Two words: Oh Please. ;)
Pippero 05-18-04, 06:50 PM	Thanks. I know tha aging implies bonus in mental scores, but the only mental stat I need is Wis, all three phisical scores are necessary to a combat cleric. To go further, I have only even scores so when I lose 1 point of Str Dex Con I lose a net +1 in all three scores and I don't gain anything from the mental scores. Going to the Astral plane could be a solution but I cannot pretend to stay there continuously for 5 levels; staying there only for training would be the best, but it's useless if I instantly age when I come back. Do you know some way to change my race? For example into a dwarf? I don't think I will have acces to a wish, pherhaps to a miracle. Do you know if miracle can change the race? Dear Arandar, maybe I wasn't clear: NOT a week every time we level up BUT a week per level ; so 10 weeks to acheive 10th level 11 weeks for 11th and so on.
Nick Soapdish 05-18-04, 07:11 PM	A well-worded Wish or Miracle should get you a few years back. Or you could change your race with Polymorph Any Object although I imagine that most characters wouldn't especially care for that approach. Plus, you might lose your base physical stats; I don't recall. And like others have suggested, dying also stops aging.:D But those training rules suck! I can understand your DM being leery of having a character wander into a dungeon, hit a couple tough encounters and go up in level ... and then repeat the process the next day. But making them train for 10 weeks in between those two days of adventure is way past what's needed. Two and a half months?! I assume that there's nothing time sensitive in your campaign or else the party would never have time to go up in level. Or you could just talk to your DM and mention your quandary and see if he'll help you come up with a solution.
allenchan 05-18-04, 07:50 PM	This topic is interesting because one of my party's characters is built around this concept. He's playing a Thri-Kreen (I think they're adults at like, 6 years old?) and he's out scouring the land in search of a way to stay young (or be immortal, whichever!)
Cyricist 05-18-04, 08:09 PM	Try (the fantasy equivalent of) Oil of Olala? :behold: Or some other daycream perhaps? Make up? Working out? Maybe a nice liposuction? :rolleyes:
God Jesus 05-18-04, 08:17 PM	Originally posted by allenchan This topic is interesting because one of my party's characters is built around this concept. He's playing a Thri-Kreen (I think they're adults at like, 6 years old?) and he's out scouring the land in search of a way to stay young (or be immortal, whichever!) Too bad you're not playing Scarred Lands. They've got a spell for that, even though it requires a willing sacrifice.
Remnant 05-18-04, 08:26 PM	Originally posted by antibelpas The problem is that training is COMPLETELY unrealistic. Oh, I just realized that I have enough xp to gain a level. I better start training! Illogical and unrealistic. The realistic thing to do, is to just level up. During the course of adventuring characters are constantly practicing...learning by doing! That is adventuring. Fighters wielding weapons, rogues utilizing skills, mages casting spells, and priests praying. The more you do it, the better you get at it....eg a level! A level simply represents a point in game mechanics when you've gotten better enough for it to mean something in terms of the game. On that note training is wrong. Sorry, no argument possible! Not really. I mean, I have never, and will never, require players to spend X amount of time training because it is rather pointless, and if I ever want them to level mid-adventure, I'd have to find a block of X amount of time to give them. That said, spending training time is no more illogical than suddenly getting across the board ability improvements for killing just one more kobold. Or taking down a dragon and suddenly gaining ranks knowledge (basket weaving) out of the blue. The whole leveling system is not particularly logical. The DMG talks about the characters using "down time" in between adventures to hone skills- this DM just chose to make this down time more tangible and directly correlated to leveling. Most MUDs do the same thing. (And often make you pay for it too)
Deldramir 05-18-04, 09:14 PM	Now I can't think of the actual feat name (and I'm not at my house to check my book) but if you can hold out to epic level there's a feat, Longevity or something that basically doubles your lifespan eg say human middle aged is considered 35 it becomes 70 and voila you're no longer middle aged, good bye negative stat scores. The feat can also be taken more than once. Just a thought although you are burning an epic feat to do it, but hey you could always turn evil, change gods and find a friendly vampire.
Zilred 05-18-04, 11:10 PM	Originally posted by Deldramir Now I can't think of the actual feat name (and I'm not at my house to check my book) but if you can hold out to epic level there's a feat, Longevity or something that basically doubles your lifespan eg say human middle aged is considered 35 it becomes 70 and voila you're no longer middle aged, good bye negative stat scores. The feat can also be taken more than once. Just a thought although you are burning an epic feat to do it, but hey you could always turn evil, change gods and find a friendly vampire. Partially correct, the Extended Lifespan Feat from the Epic Level Handbook can widen the age categories, and can theoretically prolong your life indefinitely if you took it repeatedly. However, taking that feat does not restore youth. If you were middle age before taking the feat, you are still middle age after taking the feat, even if the age would fall back into the adulthood category. As for avoiding middle age at 35, it might not be possible unless you can power level. There are only 52 weeks in a year you know. Just don't worry about that age category. -1 STR, -1 DEX, -1 CON and +1 INT, +1 WIS, +1 CHA is a good stat shift for any caster class. Do not be afraid of going over the hill here.
antibelpas 05-19-04, 11:51 AM	Originally posted by Remnant That said, spending training time is no more illogical than suddenly getting across the board ability improvements for killing just one more kobold. Or taking down a dragon and suddenly gaining ranks knowledge (basket weaving) out of the blue. The whole leveling system is not particularly logical. Wrong. They system without training is fine. You and most people don't understand what a level is and how you actually gain one. Learning is smooth curve. Yet in a game we can't describe a smooth curve as it would be too complicated, even impossible. So we do the next best thing, we make little bars of area under the curve, dividing it into segments to add it up. Sound familiar? Each of these segments is a level. As you're adventuring and using your weapons, skills, and spells, you are constantly improving....learning through both failures and successes. A level merely represents that point when you have gotten "good enough" that it means something in game mechanics, eg going from +1 to +2, or learning a new spell. Between the levels you are constantly getting better. Someone with 1500xp is much more experienced than someone with 1100xp. Its just that the resolution of the game (eg levels) is too low to give them a difference in game mechanics. So, when you level you just suddenly don't "gain abilities." You have been slowly getting better and better at those new abilities, and at that point in the game you're good enough to have it mean something in game. Thus training is illogical, an outright uneducated view, and a poor attempt at describing the easily understandable concept of a level. Often training is nothing more than a way for power hungry, micromanaging, control freak DM to have as much control over your characters as possible.
Krelios 05-19-04, 12:21 PM	So, when you level you just suddenly don't "gain abilities." You have been slowly getting better and better at those new abilities, and at that point in the game you're good enough to have it mean something in game. Thus training is illogical, an outright uneducated view, and a poor attempt at describing the easily understandable concept of a level. Often training is nothing more than a way for power hungry, micromanaging, control freak DM to have as much control over your characters as possible. Before I reply, I'll ask you to stop being so condescending and closed-minded because you're bordering on harassment now (a CoC violation). That having been said. Your argument would be great, if not for skill points. Feats, BAB, Saves, even spells/abilities I can buy you argument, but what about the 6th level rogue that has no ranks in Profession (Sailor) and can't tell the aft of a ship from the bow that dumps 10 points into at 7th? Let's say he's never even seen the ocean, let alone a boat, but while he's miles below the surface, he makes one more swing and drops a kobold--then, miraculously, in six seconds, he becomes a Master Sailor, equal to any veteran captain. This is where the breakdown of logic occurs. Most DMs simply wouldn't allow the character to do that, but if training rules were in place, he could spend a few weeks of "downtime" to justify his choices--since my example is perfectly "legal" by the rules, even if it's dumb. Training times smooth out the curve you described, and the problem I described is symptomatic of level-based systems. It's an issue that can be resolved, and training times are a great way to do it. Besides, it's not like your players are waiting 6 weeks to adventure again, just the characters. So don't call me uneducated, and please think about both sides of the argument. I'm not saying that training times are for everyone, but they certainly don't hurt anyone.
antibelpas 05-19-04, 12:43 PM	Originally posted by Krelios That having been said. Your argument would be great, if not for skill points. Feats, BAB, Saves, even spells/abilities I can buy you argument, but what about the 6th level rogue that has no ranks in Profession (Sailor) and can't tell the aft of a ship from the bow that dumps 10 points into at 7th? Let's say he's never even seen the ocean, let alone a boat, but while he's miles below the surface, he makes one more swing and drops a kobold--then, miraculously, in six seconds, he becomes a Master Sailor, equal to any veteran captain. This is where the breakdown of logic occurs. Most DMs simply wouldn't allow the character to do that, but if training rules were in place, he could spend a few weeks of "downtime" to justify his choices--since my example is perfectly "legal" by the rules, even if it's dumb. Training times smooth out the curve you described, and the problem I described is symptomatic of level-based systems. It's an issue that can be resolved, and training times are a great way to do it. Besides, it's not like your players are waiting 6 weeks to adventure again, just the characters. sigh, of course the system is imperfect, but if my explaination perfectly accounds for the majority of observables....when they its the accepted theory. Additionally, characters have several hours of downtime each day. While resting they aren't always just staring at the wall or sleeping. The rogue that wants to start learning carpentry could be doing some wood carving during those long hours waiting for the wizard to rest and rememorize spells. Its close to all explainable without the need for training. If you do insist on some training for those skills that you can't possibly understand how they got them, like sailing, just demand that they get training for that....or buy a book to read during their resting times. its so simple...this I need to train for 1week per level garabage and then pay 1000gps is a bunch of crap. An one more thing....telling someone that they are violating the CoC is against the CoC....
Krelios 05-19-04, 12:52 PM	If you do insist on some training for those skills that you can't possibly understand how they got them, like sailing, just demand that they get training for that....or buy a book to read during their resting times. That's what I said. its so simple...this I need to train for 1week per level garabage and then pay 1000gps is a bunch of crap.I never said anything about spending money. 1 week per level was also someone else's arbitrary number. An one more thing....telling someone that they are violating the CoC is against the CoC.... No, it most certainly is not. I was trying to do you a favor. Besides I said you were "bordering on harassment now (a CoC violation)." Just reminding you that attacking people and calling them names is unacceptable.
Arbitrary Aardvark 05-19-04, 01:11 PM	Originally posted by Arandar A week of training is next to no time, even for a level. After you've reached level 20, you've only spent 20 weeks (140 days (unless you use 10days, or something else)). That's not even half a year for reaching a point where you can destroy dragons? Sounds completely fine to me to have a week of rest after you level up. I think his DM may be using a week per current level. So it would be three weeks to go from 3rd to 4th level. This would mean 190 weeks (or so) training between 1st and 20th, which is still not a lot. The problem comes in with party dynamics. I used to be in a 1st edition campaign where it took 1d4 weeks to level. The problem was that nearly every session someone leveled. Either their character had to sit out the next adventure, or the party as a whole waited weeks between adventures, or you had to put off leveling for a couple of sessions until enough people had gotten enough experience.
Pippero 05-19-04, 06:13 PM	I agree with all you that it's a stupid House Rule. The worse "option" for training in DMG requires half the time than our DM's HR, but he doesn't want to change it, nor he will create objects to solve my problem. I need official rules, some simple trick to gain a couple of years. I knew there was an epic feat to solve the problem but I don't think that going epic would be faster than doing 5 levels of Divine Disciple. I could accept to lose a level but not to lose: 1 BAB, 1 AC, at least 10 HP to gain... nothing (raising an even score is useless). Do you have some references that miracle can "rewind" a little my age?
Kyuketsukiouji 05-19-04, 06:30 PM	Since Steal Life (out of the BovD) is level 7 (I think), there should be no reason to think Miracle can't give you back a few weeks of life without making you use an Evil spell. To be on the safe side, you might want to offer your diety service or sacrifice to "sweeten the deal" in your favor.
Remnant 05-19-04, 07:20 PM	Originally posted by antibelpas Wrong. They system without training is fine. You and most people don't understand what a level is and how you actually gain one. Learning is smooth curve. Yet in a game we can't describe a smooth curve as it would be too complicated, even impossible. So we do the next best thing, we make little bars of area under the curve, dividing it into segments to add it up. Sound familiar? Each of these segments is a level. As you're adventuring and using your weapons, skills, and spells, you are constantly improving....learning through both failures and successes. A level merely represents that point when you have gotten "good enough" that it means something in game mechanics, eg going from +1 to +2, or learning a new spell. Between the levels you are constantly getting better. Someone with 1500xp is much more experienced than someone with 1100xp. Its just that the resolution of the game (eg levels) is too low to give them a difference in game mechanics. So, when you level you just suddenly don't "gain abilities." You have been slowly getting better and better at those new abilities, and at that point in the game you're good enough to have it mean something in game. Thus training is illogical, an outright uneducated view, and a poor attempt at describing the easily understandable concept of a level. Often training is nothing more than a way for power hungry, micromanaging, control freak DM to have as much control over your characters as possible. I am not going to comment on the near ad hominem nature of some of the quoted post's contents. Instead, I will make an argument in favor of training, even though I do not use it myself. Yes, of course learning is a smooth curve- and other RPGs have found ways to divide the ability growth into much smaller segments of power growth than the concepts of levels. Levels are NOT the end-all best way to represent learning. In fact, they are often unessesarily indirect. Case in point- ShadowRun uses a system of Karma points which can be used to buy abilities directly, as they are earned. There is no arbitrary division of when your abilities improve, such as in leveling. Of course you learn things as you do them. No one here ever said that you did not. But there are gains made from training that are not gained simply by doing. With most physical activities, repeated performance of an activity refines what is known. However, new and better methods of doing things are often learned during training when immediate necessity does not close out the possibility of experimenting and trying new things. For example, just today I heard a guitarist speak on how he taught himself to play- but it was not until much later, when he had the advantage of training with other guitarists, that he learned ways of doing things that allowed him to take real advantage of his own abilities. In other words, he improved his abilities in this way not through performing for an audience, but by training in conjunction with doing. A swordsman certainly will get better at swordplay by being in many actual battles. Yet, it is unlikely that he will devise as many techniques through sheer use in battle as he could if he were to train under those that already have devised or learned these techniques. Examine even real life- there are millions who continue their education in their chosen career path well after they have begun it. Why? Because they can learn by going to class more efficiently than trying to simply learn everything by doing it. In other words, they are training themselves, by going to class. As an anecdote, look at a student learning math. It is unlikely that he will devise the laws that govern mathmatics on his own. Instead, he takes a class- training. He then takes what he learned and refines it by doing. When he has refined it enough (i.e., passes the class) he then trains again, at the next stage of mathmatics, and refines again by doing. And so on does he go from arithmatic to differential equations and beyond. So, in D&D terms, any class which benefits from technique has the potential to benefit from training. Certainly then, fighters, rouges, wizards, clerics, paladins, bards, rangers, and monks all benefit from the efficiency in learning gained from training. Sorcerers even arguably do, as the PHB discusses that they can learn from one another. Druids even could recieve information from other druids on animal habits, plant properties and the like. Of all classes, barbarians may need training the least, as there does not seem to be much technique involed in their way of doing things- but even they could likely learn at least some things from others more than they could by doing it on their own. As for correlating training with levels? As was said, the problem isn't with training. But levels are so ingrained into D&D that it wouldn't be D&D without them. Yet look how educational systems work- dividing students up into grades and degrees based on the training and doing that they have accomplished. Final exams, bar exams, entrance exams- all of them can be said to have abstract connections with the concept of level, and all are the cumulation of some form of training. So, no. Training is not inherently illogical. Training, in fact, can be a more efficient way of learning than simply doing. Doing is completely necessary to refine skill, but to dismiss training out-of-hand as the tool of a power hungry DM does not do training justice. A DM is well within reason to say "A week passes while you train with the accomplished swordsman/archmage/whatever." I personally would be annoyed with a DM who wasted a session on doing this alone, but simply saying it happened is hardly a grievous offense. In fact, since the vast majority of DMs generally don't concern themselves with recording the imact of a week on a character's age, I would be impressed with this DMs attention to detail if nothing else. Edit- clarification
Remnant 05-19-04, 07:40 PM	Edit- Double post.
Jager 05-19-04, 07:59 PM	Priestly Lich.
Lawless 05-20-04, 07:51 AM	You could have a spell duplicate a monk's 'Timeless Body' effect. You'd age but don't suffer the effects, either the penalties or bonuses. I might add a +1LA for it, but hey you wouldn't have to worry about it anymore.
Frozen Diamond 05-20-04, 07:56 AM	I'd allow a Wish for Timeless Body, but that's usually out of reach for a 9th level character.
Garble Willowwits 05-20-04, 10:51 AM	Isn't this thread supposed to be about how to stop aging? Instead it has turned into "To train or not to Train.
Revelation 05-20-04, 11:12 AM	As someone who's passed that barrier I'd ask how old the player is? there's nothing wrong with getting older and wiser, even if the middle spreads a bit, so you get physically weaker but your Wis and Cha help you serve your gods as well. Live with it, look at it from the point of view that at the next age category you won't lose any bonuses:D . If it really tees you off that much ask your DM sweetly if he wouldn't mind letting you stay a teeny bit younger. If he says no live with it and RP getting older and wiser, take the character in a new direction dedicated to faith rather than fighting.
Kaylar 05-20-04, 01:17 PM	Another mark for asking the DM for a work around. While there should be nothing wrong with getting older, what about the possibility of accepting the fact that your PC is getting older and just compensate with magic items? I only suggest this, because after reading the other on-topic posts, they've suggested all of the other possibilities I would have thought of.
DiplomaticSorcerer 05-20-04, 08:56 PM	Originally posted by Shapedoctor Jump into a pool of magma. You will cease to age. On the contrary. You will begin to age so quickly that your death will be imminent.
Rathik 05-21-04, 05:04 PM	you could find an incredibly powerful spellcaster and get him to cast Seed: Fortify, from the Epic Level handbook, which increases your current age category upper limit by X years. EDIT: Or acquire the the Lich template. They have it on the "Savage Progressions" section on the DND homepage. However, this will change your moral alignment to 'evil'.
Lincoln Hills 05-21-04, 05:53 PM	Originally posted by Pippero ...To go further, I have only even scores so when I lose 1 point of Str Dex Con I lose a net +1 in all three scores and I don't gain anything from the mental scores... Paragraph 2: Congratulations: you've discovered one of the penalties for min-maxing. Even-numbered stats, in spite of their numerical advantage, are easier to damage with ability drain/damage, harder to pump with bull's strength et al., and are hit HARD when your character becomes middle-aged. That aside, I'm sorry, but I don't know of any PRACTICAL solutions to your problem. The posts above have covered a lot of the options for slowing/halting the degradation of your body... but most of them are only 'options' for characters much more powerful than you (or much deader). No quick & easy solution... just as well, from a setting perspective: if there were a Fountain of Youth in every village square, you'd be wading through 500-year-old commoners piled three deep. ;)
allenchan 05-21-04, 06:33 PM	Become an Elan. Its a "race" in the XPH that grants you an unlimited natural lifespan (No aging, etc). Becoming an Elan will drop your character back to level 1, though he'll retain all memories of his previous life. (you're clerics human, right?)
ck2001wendt 05-21-04, 09:07 PM	Convince your DM to run the "Temple of Rappan Athuck" mega-adventure. There's a "Magic Mushroom" in the 3rd module that can de-age you 1d100 years when you eat it. You can also grow another mushroom, though I believe they also take 1d100 years to grow. The whole reason to get around aging is that you can get the benefits of the increased mental stats (your "mental" age hasn't changed) One way to get around leveling before you want to (and therefore aging before you want to) is to bank your XP...you don't have to level until you choose to (though most do so right away). On the topic of training: I don't make my characters train post-hoc, but I DO make them call new the Wizard spells, classes, languages, feats, or new (previously untrained) skills they want to learn at the beginning of their new level. If you're a 5th level Wizard, you tell me at the beginning of level 5 that you want to learn Fireball and Fly. If you find scrolls of those spells on the way to lvl 6, too bad. This simulates the training process without being overly burdensome, representing characters who still have to train over time to get good at something. You shouldn't be able to on the fly decide you're going to become a master Sailor or Archer, but this is D&D so you also shouldn't spend 3 years going from lvl 19--> lvl 20.
Edward 05-22-04, 12:27 AM	The scared land true ritual immortality is over kill. (2 wizards with a 9the level spell a wiling sacrifice of equal or greater hit dice buckets of XP from each caster and a small dragons hoard worth of magic items. Or a single casting of stop the years to avoid physical aging effects for 1d10 years and no annoying catch up. Sorc/wiz Necro 7 if you can get it you are looking at at least 910gp, more if the caster is above level 13. Just watch out for the companion spell speed the years. Edward As to the realism of training. Requiring training for a barbarian’s level when he spent the hole level hitting things is pointless. He had lots of practise. But what about the bard that decided to pick up preform string instrument in the middle of a battle against a horde of orcs when he doesn’t have a string instrument on him. What about the cleric of the god of magic that decided to pick up a level of wizard all of a sudden. What about the wizard that decided to pick up a level of fighter so he could round out his defence and maybe move to spell sword. That said why during down time when I have not attained a level could I not learn a new skill. No mater how much time and money I spend on expert trainers. If XP is a meta game concept. Why will my PC bard that wants to learn to play a stringed instrument and has some time in town (the wizard is making something. He said to wast a month) not go to an instrument maker and purchase a fine harp and find a musician (not necessarily class bard) to teach him to play. But I have no skill points. For some reason I make absolutely no progress. This is even more notable with knowledge skills that assume book learning and can not be used untrained. The way I deal with it is to require training sometimes. EG your first level in a spell casting class usually requires training (sorcerer a notable exception) your first level in a fighter class requires training if you have no fighter classes. There are some exceptions. You cannot gain your first rank in a skill without significant exposure to it. Sometimes training. Some training (eg jump) can be self-administered. Another PC that has the skill can administer some training around the campfire. You are encouraged to start training before attaining the level. If you get significant training in a skill that cannot be used untrained before you can get the level you may be considered trained in that skill even before you get the ranks but you MUST place at least 1 full rank in it at your next level. Others have mentioned training between PCs I require it to be specified in some examples. There is still the problem that a bard gets better at singing ballads by fighting orcs than by siting in a tavern with other bards singing and learning ballads but that cannot be helped. I also make all levelling bonuses wait until you get a good nights sleep because I have had mid encounter arguments “I was 10xp short of the level we defeated half the orcs can I level now so I can use this 4 I rolled for my HP and get another magic missile so we can win easily.” (only a slight exaduration) and I think it makes a little bit more sense and most of my group agree (there games use that as well) On the subject of training cash. What do GMs say you spend it on. Thousands of GP to get a sparing partner for your barbarian or an open field for a sorcerer to praktis casting in. I don’t think so. Edward
Pippero 05-24-04, 07:30 AM	Edward, I don't understand answer, please explain me more clearly. Is there a 7th level wizard spell allowing me not to age for 1d10 years?? This would be very interesting!