How Can I be a Good Scout for my Party? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How Can I be a Good Scout for my Party? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kilsek of Sheverash
09-09-04, 02:05 AM When marching order comes up, I always flinch a little over the suggestion of the rogues and rangers (or other stealthy types) a number of paces ahead of the party, "scouting ahead."

Not only bc they're not very robust typically (d6-d8 HD), and if they get into trouble, they're usually in big trouble bc they're ALONE too.

So that I can get over this irrational fear, I have some questions to help me better understand the party scout's role and how they can be most effective:

1) Does a "scout" several feet away from the party really make sense? Isn't there strength in numbers? Why allow your average HD party members to risk facing a dangerous encounter all on their own? What do you really gain if you use a traditional scout? What do you actually lose if you don't?

2) What races and classes make the best scouts and why?

3) What weapons, gear, tools, and mundane items help make a scout better?

4) What skills does a good scout need to put ranks into?

5) How often does a good scout need to use all his skills?

6) How far away exactly from the core party should the scout or scouts be? Is 30' just right, or too close, in a dungeon setting? Is 60' just right or too far in a wilderness setting?

7) How often should a good scout rendezvous with her core party? What are the worthwhile "triggers" for a scout to return to the core party and provide information learned from scouting? What kind of information is the minimum that a good scout passes along to his core party?

8) Should the party typically follow behind the general direction the scout went? Or should the party wait, let the scout go ahead a longer distance, wait for his return and feedback, and then have the party move, repeating this process?

Thanks!
Ellanon
09-09-04, 02:41 AM In reference to your skills, you want Spot/Listen and Hide/Move Silently. The whole point is not to be seen, while trying to see the other guy. At the very least, if you move those four skills up, you will be well on your way to being a decent scout.
anders
09-09-04, 04:53 AM 1) Yes. Remember the scout isnt supposed to be *seen*. When he finds a party of orcs, he will report back to the party and then the pary will not be surpised etc. They can even lay an ambush.

2) Rogues/rangers/bards. Because they have move/listen/spot/hide as class skills, plus they have a lot of skillpoints. Rangers also have have tracking.

3) equipment that improves: spot, listen, hide and move.

4) see above.

5) Move and hide => all the time
spot and listen whenever there is trouble ahead.

6) depends on level and abilities. In a dungeon i'd not go to far away. In my group, the rogue usually is 30' or so ahead, and waits for the monsters to pass him if he sees them. He will report back telepatically to the group, and then go flanking for sneak attack when combat starts.

In wildness you can go further away, because you have a better chance of getting away if you're busted.

7) this is induvidually. What suits the group best?

8) Depends.. ;) If you're in a dungeon with your full plate fighters, and want to scout out a hall, i'd send the rougue alone. In wilderness i'd just walk in the general direction.

the scout should also emply some "oh-****" equipment. Like a whistle if he is spotted (so his group can hear him), etc.
cambric
09-09-04, 09:27 AM I'm the scout for our group and I go forward about 30 feet at a time...we have it timed and they will move forward every so many minutes...depending on the situation.

Everyone already gave you great ideas on what is needed, and a rogue or ranger are the best at scouting. I'm 9th level Rogue/3rd level Spy Master and my move silenty and hide is outstanding!!

I'm very fortunate though, I have an 18 con, so my hit points are 106 right now and can take a hit or two...but the "goal" is to be so silent and hidden, that I'm not seen nor heard.

Cam
psionichamster
09-09-04, 09:40 AM CHALK!!!

seriously, other than things that allow you to move easier, faster, more silently, or hide better, this is the numero uno item for dungeon or wilderness scouts...

100' ahead of the party, hidden and cutoff from escape? thats ok, you let them know about that monster a good 50'back, and once they engage, you can drop down and SA, or even better, SA Ranged from hiding.

the biggest thing to learn is PATIENCE...real world scouts/snipers/recon men can spen DAYS by themselves, stalking their targets and making double darn sure they aint been seen.

its like the movie "The Recruit" -" Rule No. 1...tatoo it backwards on your forehead, DO NOT GET CAUGHT. if you're caught, you're dead!"

basically, move silently, hide, and CLIMBING are your friends...most people, even IF they can see in the dark, tend NOT to look up. so, be up;

also, if you can see in the dark, and they cant, you have a huge advantage

remember, as a scout, your mission is to find out and REPORT...a dead scout is no good to a party, or to himself!

the hamster
Kalanth
09-09-04, 09:43 AM For question number 2, the obvious answer is Ranger/Rogue/Bard, because of the skills. After a few lvls, though, Druid can be an excelent scout because of wild shape. This would allow them to blend in with the natural environment, and besides the risk of a hunter seeing game in the area, nothing is a better disguise than that of making yourself look like you environment.
SheldonSmith
09-09-04, 10:29 AM I was a calvary scout in the Army (1978-1984). On many missions, I only had a .45 cal pistol. That's right no rifle, no radio, no one else but me. I'll tell you why they did not issue me a rifle. Because if I had one often I would shoot it and give my position away. With only a pistol (in reserve for that last resort) I would make sure not to be seen. In the missions that I was on (I am not allowed to talk about!) I was only supposed to watch and report back. Often the information that I would be relaying was already on the evening news, but the military wanted a military perspective, not a slanted/biased news report.

So in real life there are scouts out there --- way out in front --- who are not heavily fortified and they get the job done.

The trick is to (1)see the enemy before he sees your buddies. (2)Get the information back to your buddies with enough time for them to prepare for the enemy. (3)And above all not get seen. Because if you do #3 then there is always a chance that you can flank the enemy when they attack your buddies.
Ellanon
09-09-04, 11:29 AM The fact that you came here and asked shows you as willing to learn and a desire to improve your group. If only I could say the same about a few of my groups members.
JabberWocky
09-09-04, 11:43 AM I agree with everything above; I once got weaseled into playing a scout for our party, so I wound up playing a halfling rogue. Cliche, I know, but hear me out. At level 5, I often stayed 30 or 40 feet ahead of the party, using the terrain to my advantage.

I recall in one adventure, we were moving through a forest on "enemy" territory (we were hired by an army of humans and dwarves to scout the forests north of the mountains to foil any pincer maneuvers the orc horde might try). I was easily sixty feet ahead of my party (four 5th level characters, druid, cleric, and two fighters), armed with signal arrows. The party said they would wait back for my signal as I investigated some suspicious activity ahead.

I ended up sneaking into the big teepee serving as the leader's hut and took him out (thank Olidammara for sneak attack and coup de grace). Without him, the orcs were kind of useless. ;P
Thelandrach
09-09-04, 01:08 PM The big problem with "scouting ahead" is that the scout needs to move faster than the party does. If you're Moving Silently and Hiding, you're moving at half speed on foot. This means that the party following you is going to be travelling... very... slowly... at about the speed you see people walking their kid who can barely walk around the block.

If you're close enough that you can communicate with the party, they're close enough to be seen by whatever YOU just spotted.
Phrennzy
09-09-04, 01:40 PM 50 feet indoors and 100 feet outdoors is almost a minimum.

Spider Climbing slippers are a big plus. Helps you get around pits or up where no one will see you.

The number one rule is to not be seen, which means YOU DO NOT ATTACK!

I DM. Our group had the scout sneak up to the guard post of an area filled with lizard men. The rogue saw an opportune moment for a sneak attack, and took it.

Well, one of the guards escaped and now the whole complex will be on alert.

Bad move.

You are the eyes of the party, nothing else. You are not some advance strike team. You just observe and report.
Lincoln Hills
09-09-04, 02:40 PM First of all - if you're going to be a rogue or bard travelling solo ahead of the group, I strongly suggest building a 'better military scout' with a level or two of barbarian or fighter. It might not make a LOT of difference, but a stout shield and an axe or longbow - to say nothing of the extra hp - will improve your survivability when you ARE caught.

And you usually WILL be caught.

In real life, a stalker can keep a target under observation for hours on end: but in the 3.0 and 3.5 mechanic, the enemy - EVERY enemy - gets a new chance to detect the observer - sometimes every six seconds. And the large die size of a d20 means the odds of an observer being lucky can override even a decent amount of skill. (If you've got +19 to Hide, and roll a one, Joe Commoner just might see you.)
You have ONE advantage on your side, which is that Listen and Spot DCs are SUPPOSED to increase by one for every 10 feet between you and your opponent. If you are observing from 70 feet away, your foes are at -7 on their checks: plus, of course, darkvision (for most races) doesn't have the range to sense you in THAT case.

Assuming you have some kind of 60' perception (low-light vision is actually BETTER than darkvision for most scouts unless they're in an unlit-dungeon situation), it's best to have the main group at least 50' back (where you can see them) and to approach no closer to the enemies than you need to (usually 50', so you can detect whether there's more than one, etc.)

As for races and classes - well, if I had to chose something, I'd go with a gnome monk. Superior movement rate (compared to other gnomes, anyway), high Wisdom, low-light vision and Move Silently as a class skill... Hide isn't, I believe, but that's where that +4 size bonus to Hide comes in. If your DM allows gnomes to take Scent, you're golden.

However, from a flavor and not mechanics perspective, it's elven ranger or gnome fighter/bard all the way. ;)

A scout should definitely have chalk or charcoal, as mentioned before, to leave 'silent signals' to the following party. A horn to blow in case of trouble has already been mentioned. You may be able to talk the DM into an equipment bonus for basics like camoflaged clothing or footpads (see if you can find the old 2nd ed Complete Thief's Handbook; it had many, many goodies.)

Invest in Move Silently and Listen, first off - you don't have to be looking in a particular direction to HEAR something, while sight is much more directional. That said - it's a good idea to invest in Hide, Spot, Escape Artist and Sense Motive, in approximate level of importance.

It's best to check back with the party at every unexplored intersection or major find, so that the group can bicker about it for a while. Don't get too curious and don't over-analyze. If you've found what you THINK is a body, do not investigate - report back. If the party decides to render medical aid or last rites, let the cleric handle it. (Lousy saves vs. disease!)
Kilsek of Sheverash
09-10-04, 01:55 AM Wow, thank you so much everybody for so many awesome tips on what makes a good scout!

Some things that really stood out to me so far:

*Good speed is a big plus
*Not being see or heard is #1 priority
*Getting back to the party with info, and back to its safety with info, instead of ever picking a fight alone, is the smartest style of scout play
*Use a whistle if you've been caught scouting
*Use chalk as markers for your party
*Distance that makes sense ahead of the party depends on the situation and how good and tough a scout you are
*Toughen up your character with a level of more warrior-style classes if you expect to be doing a fair amount of combat - helps whether you're caught scouting and makes you a better second line fighter

There's lots of other subtleties I picked up from everyone's feedback as well. There's definitely enough great information here where I'd feel a lot better actually playing a scout, and know that I could be pretty good at it now. Thanks again.
SilverFoxKnows
09-11-04, 01:55 PM as a good balance between stealth, skills, hit points, BAB, and spells. Let's not forget Animal Companion. I don't go for the bigger or more exotic critters. Give me a Raven, they're one of the smartest birds around, they can see from above and they're actually fairly common. If you're animal buddy is a bear it WILL be spotted and the reaction will be "Oh, s**t! A bear". If they see the raven, so what "Those darn carrion birds are everywhere". Just my two coppers.

Frank
GoodTeletubby
09-12-04, 01:23 AM For question number 2, the obvious answer is Ranger/Rogue/Bard, because of the skills. After a few lvls, though, Druid can be an excelent scout because of wild shape. This would allow them to blend in with the natural environment, and besides the risk of a hunter seeing game in the area, nothing is a better disguise than that of making yourself look like you environment.

bah, gnome druid

after level 5, wild shape can get you into places no char could go, including airborne as a hawk for daylight, or owl for night, it doesn't matter if you're seen or heard, since they won't care anyways, you're just another bird.

and the gnome's innate "speak with animals" can help too

"hey, seen anyone come this way? thanks."

another note, in 3.0 at least, the animal lord can maintain lesser wild shape indefinately
nick012000
09-12-04, 06:07 AM Whisper Gnome. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3)

The little sods are the perfect scouts.
Dragonspirit
09-12-04, 02:45 PM Darkvision also helps a LOT.

It's pretty hard to scout ahead unnoticed while bringing your torch, and pretty dangerous to scout when you can't see :)
Kaminton
09-12-04, 06:15 PM When marching order comes up, I always flinch a little over the suggestion of the rogues and rangers (or other stealthy types) a number of paces ahead of the party, "scouting ahead."

Knowledge makes a big difference to the survival of a party. A party that blunders into all sorts of things has a much lower life expectancy than a party that is prepared. Knowing what's ahead gives you the option to lay an ambush, bypass it entirely (eg, do we take the left or right tunnel?), or prepare special tactics (eg, break out the alchemist's fire).

Not only bc they're not very robust typically (d6-d8 HD), and if they get into trouble, they're usually in big trouble bc they're ALONE too.

Most of the scouting classes have the physical movement skills as class skills - such as balance, climb, escape artist, jump, and tumble. Use them to stay alive until the cavalry arrives. In general, though, with the penalties to spot and listen at a distance, the only way to spot a super-stealth character is with a super-senser NPC (ie, another scout).

So that I can get over this irrational fear, I have some questions to help me better understand the party scout's role and how they can be most effective:

1) Does a "scout" several feet away from the party really make sense? Isn't there strength in numbers? Why allow your average HD party members to risk facing a dangerous encounter all on their own? What do you really gain if you use a traditional scout? What do you actually lose if you don't?

In a dungeon setting, you want someone with darkvision, otherwise you're relying on your listen checks to put out your light before you get spotted. You shouldn't be too far ahead (I'd stay 60 ft ahead, not 30, depending on how large the dungeon is). Typically though you'll want the party to be around the corner while the scout checks out a cavern or room. Another typical task is checking out the first hundred feet or so after an intersection, if you're not sure which way to go.

In an outdoor setting, the scout should be much further ahead, because there's less cover to hide the rest of the party. Ideally you want to spot trouble before it spots the party.

What you gain: foreknowledge. Coupled with appropriate knowledge/bardic lore checks, this could mean preparing certain weapons (silver, cold iron, fire, bludgeoning...). You can also come up with a plan or two.

2) What races and classes make the best scouts and why?

I would add the monk to the list - pretty much any class with the 4 core scout skills. In addition, spellcasters with divinations (such as arcane eye or prying eyes) can also serve as scouts.

3) What weapons, gear, tools, and mundane items help make a scout better?

In addition to items that boost the core skills, items of invisibility help alot. Items that help you escape are good too. Things that let you go ethereal, that give blink effects (so you can walk through walls), and items that let you communicate with the party (such as rary's telepathic bond) are also useful.

7) How often should a good scout rendezvous with her core party? What are the worthwhile "triggers" for a scout to return to the core party and provide information learned from scouting? What kind of information is the minimum that a good scout passes along to his core party?

Every few intersections in a dungeon setting, probably. As long as you're leaving marks for the party, you can usually stay ahead. Triggers would be anything that poses a problem - typically monsters or guards. Traps and hazards can be marked off. The scout should be able to communicate the type and number of enemies, preferably in sufficient detail to allow for a knowledge check (eg, recognizing trolls, skeletons, and other monsters with special defenses or vulnerabilities).

8) Should the party typically follow behind the general direction the scout went? Or should the party wait, let the scout go ahead a longer distance, wait for his return and feedback, and then have the party move, repeating this process?

Depends on how stealthy the rest of the party is, and whether you're in a hurry or not. If you've got fighters or paladins in full plate, it might be better for them to wait, especially if there's no time pressure. On the other hand, a lighter party should be able to move behind the rogue. Remember that you only move at half speed while sneaking around (so about 15 ft), but that if anyone in the party is more than lightly encumbered or wearing medium or heavier armor, they only move at 20ft (or 15 for gnomes and halflings), so it's not that big a speed difference. A scout with barbarian level(s) moves at 20 as well. Similarly for monks (with enhanced movement) and scouts wearing boots of striding and springing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kilsek of Sheverash 09-09-04, 02:05 AM	When marching order comes up, I always flinch a little over the suggestion of the rogues and rangers (or other stealthy types) a number of paces ahead of the party, "scouting ahead." Not only bc they're not very robust typically (d6-d8 HD), and if they get into trouble, they're usually in big trouble bc they're ALONE too. So that I can get over this irrational fear, I have some questions to help me better understand the party scout's role and how they can be most effective: 1) Does a "scout" several feet away from the party really make sense? Isn't there strength in numbers? Why allow your average HD party members to risk facing a dangerous encounter all on their own? What do you really gain if you use a traditional scout? What do you actually lose if you don't? 2) What races and classes make the best scouts and why? 3) What weapons, gear, tools, and mundane items help make a scout better? 4) What skills does a good scout need to put ranks into? 5) How often does a good scout need to use all his skills? 6) How far away exactly from the core party should the scout or scouts be? Is 30' just right, or too close, in a dungeon setting? Is 60' just right or too far in a wilderness setting? 7) How often should a good scout rendezvous with her core party? What are the worthwhile "triggers" for a scout to return to the core party and provide information learned from scouting? What kind of information is the minimum that a good scout passes along to his core party? 8) Should the party typically follow behind the general direction the scout went? Or should the party wait, let the scout go ahead a longer distance, wait for his return and feedback, and then have the party move, repeating this process? Thanks!
Ellanon 09-09-04, 02:41 AM	In reference to your skills, you want Spot/Listen and Hide/Move Silently. The whole point is not to be seen, while trying to see the other guy. At the very least, if you move those four skills up, you will be well on your way to being a decent scout.
anders 09-09-04, 04:53 AM	1) Yes. Remember the scout isnt supposed to be seen. When he finds a party of orcs, he will report back to the party and then the pary will not be surpised etc. They can even lay an ambush. 2) Rogues/rangers/bards. Because they have move/listen/spot/hide as class skills, plus they have a lot of skillpoints. Rangers also have have tracking. 3) equipment that improves: spot, listen, hide and move. 4) see above. 5) Move and hide => all the time spot and listen whenever there is trouble ahead. 6) depends on level and abilities. In a dungeon i'd not go to far away. In my group, the rogue usually is 30' or so ahead, and waits for the monsters to pass him if he sees them. He will report back telepatically to the group, and then go flanking for sneak attack when combat starts. In wildness you can go further away, because you have a better chance of getting away if you're busted. 7) this is induvidually. What suits the group best? 8) Depends.. ;) If you're in a dungeon with your full plate fighters, and want to scout out a hall, i'd send the rougue alone. In wilderness i'd just walk in the general direction. the scout should also emply some "oh-****" equipment. Like a whistle if he is spotted (so his group can hear him), etc.
cambric 09-09-04, 09:27 AM	I'm the scout for our group and I go forward about 30 feet at a time...we have it timed and they will move forward every so many minutes...depending on the situation. Everyone already gave you great ideas on what is needed, and a rogue or ranger are the best at scouting. I'm 9th level Rogue/3rd level Spy Master and my move silenty and hide is outstanding!! I'm very fortunate though, I have an 18 con, so my hit points are 106 right now and can take a hit or two...but the "goal" is to be so silent and hidden, that I'm not seen nor heard. Cam
psionichamster 09-09-04, 09:40 AM	CHALK!!! seriously, other than things that allow you to move easier, faster, more silently, or hide better, this is the numero uno item for dungeon or wilderness scouts... 100' ahead of the party, hidden and cutoff from escape? thats ok, you let them know about that monster a good 50'back, and once they engage, you can drop down and SA, or even better, SA Ranged from hiding. the biggest thing to learn is PATIENCE...real world scouts/snipers/recon men can spen DAYS by themselves, stalking their targets and making double darn sure they aint been seen. its like the movie "The Recruit" -" Rule No. 1...tatoo it backwards on your forehead, DO NOT GET CAUGHT. if you're caught, you're dead!" basically, move silently, hide, and CLIMBING are your friends...most people, even IF they can see in the dark, tend NOT to look up. so, be up; also, if you can see in the dark, and they cant, you have a huge advantage remember, as a scout, your mission is to find out and REPORT...a dead scout is no good to a party, or to himself! the hamster
Kalanth 09-09-04, 09:43 AM	For question number 2, the obvious answer is Ranger/Rogue/Bard, because of the skills. After a few lvls, though, Druid can be an excelent scout because of wild shape. This would allow them to blend in with the natural environment, and besides the risk of a hunter seeing game in the area, nothing is a better disguise than that of making yourself look like you environment.
SheldonSmith 09-09-04, 10:29 AM	I was a calvary scout in the Army (1978-1984). On many missions, I only had a .45 cal pistol. That's right no rifle, no radio, no one else but me. I'll tell you why they did not issue me a rifle. Because if I had one often I would shoot it and give my position away. With only a pistol (in reserve for that last resort) I would make sure not to be seen. In the missions that I was on (I am not allowed to talk about!) I was only supposed to watch and report back. Often the information that I would be relaying was already on the evening news, but the military wanted a military perspective, not a slanted/biased news report. So in real life there are scouts out there --- way out in front --- who are not heavily fortified and they get the job done. The trick is to (1)see the enemy before he sees your buddies. (2)Get the information back to your buddies with enough time for them to prepare for the enemy. (3)And above all not get seen. Because if you do #3 then there is always a chance that you can flank the enemy when they attack your buddies.
Ellanon 09-09-04, 11:29 AM	The fact that you came here and asked shows you as willing to learn and a desire to improve your group. If only I could say the same about a few of my groups members.
JabberWocky 09-09-04, 11:43 AM	I agree with everything above; I once got weaseled into playing a scout for our party, so I wound up playing a halfling rogue. Cliche, I know, but hear me out. At level 5, I often stayed 30 or 40 feet ahead of the party, using the terrain to my advantage. I recall in one adventure, we were moving through a forest on "enemy" territory (we were hired by an army of humans and dwarves to scout the forests north of the mountains to foil any pincer maneuvers the orc horde might try). I was easily sixty feet ahead of my party (four 5th level characters, druid, cleric, and two fighters), armed with signal arrows. The party said they would wait back for my signal as I investigated some suspicious activity ahead. I ended up sneaking into the big teepee serving as the leader's hut and took him out (thank Olidammara for sneak attack and coup de grace). Without him, the orcs were kind of useless. ;P
Thelandrach 09-09-04, 01:08 PM	The big problem with "scouting ahead" is that the scout needs to move faster than the party does. If you're Moving Silently and Hiding, you're moving at half speed on foot. This means that the party following you is going to be travelling... very... slowly... at about the speed you see people walking their kid who can barely walk around the block. If you're close enough that you can communicate with the party, they're close enough to be seen by whatever YOU just spotted.
Phrennzy 09-09-04, 01:40 PM	50 feet indoors and 100 feet outdoors is almost a minimum. Spider Climbing slippers are a big plus. Helps you get around pits or up where no one will see you. The number one rule is to not be seen, which means YOU DO NOT ATTACK! I DM. Our group had the scout sneak up to the guard post of an area filled with lizard men. The rogue saw an opportune moment for a sneak attack, and took it. Well, one of the guards escaped and now the whole complex will be on alert. Bad move. You are the eyes of the party, nothing else. You are not some advance strike team. You just observe and report.
Lincoln Hills 09-09-04, 02:40 PM	First of all - if you're going to be a rogue or bard travelling solo ahead of the group, I strongly suggest building a 'better military scout' with a level or two of barbarian or fighter. It might not make a LOT of difference, but a stout shield and an axe or longbow - to say nothing of the extra hp - will improve your survivability when you ARE caught. And you usually WILL be caught. In real life, a stalker can keep a target under observation for hours on end: but in the 3.0 and 3.5 mechanic, the enemy - EVERY enemy - gets a new chance to detect the observer - sometimes every six seconds. And the large die size of a d20 means the odds of an observer being lucky can override even a decent amount of skill. (If you've got +19 to Hide, and roll a one, Joe Commoner just might see you.) You have ONE advantage on your side, which is that Listen and Spot DCs are SUPPOSED to increase by one for every 10 feet between you and your opponent. If you are observing from 70 feet away, your foes are at -7 on their checks: plus, of course, darkvision (for most races) doesn't have the range to sense you in THAT case. Assuming you have some kind of 60' perception (low-light vision is actually BETTER than darkvision for most scouts unless they're in an unlit-dungeon situation), it's best to have the main group at least 50' back (where you can see them) and to approach no closer to the enemies than you need to (usually 50', so you can detect whether there's more than one, etc.) As for races and classes - well, if I had to chose something, I'd go with a gnome monk. Superior movement rate (compared to other gnomes, anyway), high Wisdom, low-light vision and Move Silently as a class skill... Hide isn't, I believe, but that's where that +4 size bonus to Hide comes in. If your DM allows gnomes to take Scent, you're golden. However, from a flavor and not mechanics perspective, it's elven ranger or gnome fighter/bard all the way. ;) A scout should definitely have chalk or charcoal, as mentioned before, to leave 'silent signals' to the following party. A horn to blow in case of trouble has already been mentioned. You may be able to talk the DM into an equipment bonus for basics like camoflaged clothing or footpads (see if you can find the old 2nd ed Complete Thief's Handbook; it had many, many goodies.) Invest in Move Silently and Listen, first off - you don't have to be looking in a particular direction to HEAR something, while sight is much more directional. That said - it's a good idea to invest in Hide, Spot, Escape Artist and Sense Motive, in approximate level of importance. It's best to check back with the party at every unexplored intersection or major find, so that the group can bicker about it for a while. Don't get too curious and don't over-analyze. If you've found what you THINK is a body, do not investigate - report back. If the party decides to render medical aid or last rites, let the cleric handle it. (Lousy saves vs. disease!)
Kilsek of Sheverash 09-10-04, 01:55 AM	Wow, thank you so much everybody for so many awesome tips on what makes a good scout! Some things that really stood out to me so far: Good speed is a big plus Not being see or heard is #1 priority Getting back to the party with info, and back to its safety with info, instead of ever picking a fight alone, is the smartest style of scout play Use a whistle if you've been caught scouting Use chalk as markers for your party Distance that makes sense ahead of the party depends on the situation and how good and tough a scout you are *Toughen up your character with a level of more warrior-style classes if you expect to be doing a fair amount of combat - helps whether you're caught scouting and makes you a better second line fighter There's lots of other subtleties I picked up from everyone's feedback as well. There's definitely enough great information here where I'd feel a lot better actually playing a scout, and know that I could be pretty good at it now. Thanks again.
SilverFoxKnows 09-11-04, 01:55 PM	as a good balance between stealth, skills, hit points, BAB, and spells. Let's not forget Animal Companion. I don't go for the bigger or more exotic critters. Give me a Raven, they're one of the smartest birds around, they can see from above and they're actually fairly common. If you're animal buddy is a bear it WILL be spotted and the reaction will be "Oh, s**t! A bear". If they see the raven, so what "Those darn carrion birds are everywhere". Just my two coppers. Frank
GoodTeletubby 09-12-04, 01:23 AM	For question number 2, the obvious answer is Ranger/Rogue/Bard, because of the skills. After a few lvls, though, Druid can be an excelent scout because of wild shape. This would allow them to blend in with the natural environment, and besides the risk of a hunter seeing game in the area, nothing is a better disguise than that of making yourself look like you environment. bah, gnome druid after level 5, wild shape can get you into places no char could go, including airborne as a hawk for daylight, or owl for night, it doesn't matter if you're seen or heard, since they won't care anyways, you're just another bird. and the gnome's innate "speak with animals" can help too "hey, seen anyone come this way? thanks." another note, in 3.0 at least, the animal lord can maintain lesser wild shape indefinately
nick012000 09-12-04, 06:07 AM	Whisper Gnome. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3) The little sods are the perfect scouts.
Dragonspirit 09-12-04, 02:45 PM	Darkvision also helps a LOT. It's pretty hard to scout ahead unnoticed while bringing your torch, and pretty dangerous to scout when you can't see :)
Kaminton 09-12-04, 06:15 PM	When marching order comes up, I always flinch a little over the suggestion of the rogues and rangers (or other stealthy types) a number of paces ahead of the party, "scouting ahead." Knowledge makes a big difference to the survival of a party. A party that blunders into all sorts of things has a much lower life expectancy than a party that is prepared. Knowing what's ahead gives you the option to lay an ambush, bypass it entirely (eg, do we take the left or right tunnel?), or prepare special tactics (eg, break out the alchemist's fire). Not only bc they're not very robust typically (d6-d8 HD), and if they get into trouble, they're usually in big trouble bc they're ALONE too. Most of the scouting classes have the physical movement skills as class skills - such as balance, climb, escape artist, jump, and tumble. Use them to stay alive until the cavalry arrives. In general, though, with the penalties to spot and listen at a distance, the only way to spot a super-stealth character is with a super-senser NPC (ie, another scout). So that I can get over this irrational fear, I have some questions to help me better understand the party scout's role and how they can be most effective: 1) Does a "scout" several feet away from the party really make sense? Isn't there strength in numbers? Why allow your average HD party members to risk facing a dangerous encounter all on their own? What do you really gain if you use a traditional scout? What do you actually lose if you don't? In a dungeon setting, you want someone with darkvision, otherwise you're relying on your listen checks to put out your light before you get spotted. You shouldn't be too far ahead (I'd stay 60 ft ahead, not 30, depending on how large the dungeon is). Typically though you'll want the party to be around the corner while the scout checks out a cavern or room. Another typical task is checking out the first hundred feet or so after an intersection, if you're not sure which way to go. In an outdoor setting, the scout should be much further ahead, because there's less cover to hide the rest of the party. Ideally you want to spot trouble before it spots the party. What you gain: foreknowledge. Coupled with appropriate knowledge/bardic lore checks, this could mean preparing certain weapons (silver, cold iron, fire, bludgeoning...). You can also come up with a plan or two. 2) What races and classes make the best scouts and why? I would add the monk to the list - pretty much any class with the 4 core scout skills. In addition, spellcasters with divinations (such as arcane eye or prying eyes) can also serve as scouts. 3) What weapons, gear, tools, and mundane items help make a scout better? In addition to items that boost the core skills, items of invisibility help alot. Items that help you escape are good too. Things that let you go ethereal, that give blink effects (so you can walk through walls), and items that let you communicate with the party (such as rary's telepathic bond) are also useful. 7) How often should a good scout rendezvous with her core party? What are the worthwhile "triggers" for a scout to return to the core party and provide information learned from scouting? What kind of information is the minimum that a good scout passes along to his core party? Every few intersections in a dungeon setting, probably. As long as you're leaving marks for the party, you can usually stay ahead. Triggers would be anything that poses a problem - typically monsters or guards. Traps and hazards can be marked off. The scout should be able to communicate the type and number of enemies, preferably in sufficient detail to allow for a knowledge check (eg, recognizing trolls, skeletons, and other monsters with special defenses or vulnerabilities). 8) Should the party typically follow behind the general direction the scout went? Or should the party wait, let the scout go ahead a longer distance, wait for his return and feedback, and then have the party move, repeating this process? Depends on how stealthy the rest of the party is, and whether you're in a hurry or not. If you've got fighters or paladins in full plate, it might be better for them to wait, especially if there's no time pressure. On the other hand, a lighter party should be able to move behind the rogue. Remember that you only move at half speed while sneaking around (so about 15 ft), but that if anyone in the party is more than lightly encumbered or wearing medium or heavier armor, they only move at 20ft (or 15 for gnomes and halflings), so it's not that big a speed difference. A scout with barbarian level(s) moves at 20 as well. Similarly for monks (with enhanced movement) and scouts wearing boots of striding and springing.