How can I convince my DM to let me use psionics? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How can I convince my DM to let me use psionics? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Granpa_Weatherwax
05-23-06, 12:42 PM How can I convince my DM to let me use psionics in a setting where I would probably be the only psion? The thing that he really doesn't like is the concept of power points and augmenting but I don't think it is all that broken. Tips please

:help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help:
geekling
05-23-06, 12:47 PM Psionics is like marmite. There are two kinds of people in the world - those that love it and those that hate it.

If your DM if a hater - it's just not worth the effort and stress to argue against someone with an unreasonable prejudice against them - or just dislike the flavour. Really, it might be fun and games online, on boards like these, but not with people you actually play with...
ProfWhy
05-23-06, 12:56 PM You could always ask him to have you play a psion for a test run, just so he can see how they can be played in actual gaming sessions... This way he could see that the PSPs and the augmenting isn't too bad or anything... (Of course, I hope you're talking about using the XPH instead of the Psionics Handbood...)

Of course, if the DM remains steadfast in his decision about not letting in psionics, then that's his ruling... You can then either play an accepted class in his campaign or you can find a different campaign that allows psionics...
Witch
05-23-06, 01:01 PM How can I convince my DM to let me use psionics in a setting where I would probably be the only psion?
Nothing. If it doesn't exist in the setting, he'll not allow you.

The thing that he really doesn't like is the concept of power points and augmenting but I don't think it is all that broken. Tips please

This is a different case. However, psionics are hard to balance. They are balanced against the 4-encounters-per-day rule. Not every campaign uses this, and in a campaign which has less per day, the psion could become broken, easily.
Maybe it's thát, which he doesn't like.
jasper
05-23-06, 03:21 PM How about you dm with psionics and let him play a psion?
Dm set limits for their comfortable level. Don't try to make your dm uncomfortable.
Nephlite
05-23-06, 03:41 PM How can I convince my DM to let me use psionics in a setting where I would probably be the only psion? The thing that he really doesn't like is the concept of power points and augmenting but I don't think it is all that broken. Tips please

:help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help:
Maybe be better to try a Wilder or a Psychic warrior first so he gets used to Psionics.

Psions are harder for DMsto understand the first time because they cast like sorcerior (spontanously) and aren't stunted in growth (they get 2nd level powers at 3rd level instead of 4th like a Sorceror).

So you can either hope he changes mind or try Wilder or Psychic Warrior to ease him into psionics.

You can show him the Wilder's low powers known or the Psychic warriors 3/4th bab and low pp growth as reasons why it should not be broken.

Alternately:
Ask him why you are only psion? What about mindflayers?
InterSilva
05-23-06, 04:28 PM Play a Sorcerer and say your powers are psionic instead of magical. Most DMs use psi-magic transparency rules anyway. All the flavor, none of the hassle for your DM.
kelvinaw273
05-23-06, 04:44 PM If he does not like the idea, or has a campaign into which they don't fit, you'll just have to lump it. Psionics are not broken, but they are an unknown to some DMs, and anything unknown (just look at the references to 'splatbooks' in these postings) can repidly become unbalanced as the DM does not know it enough to play to your weaknesses as he does with the rest of the party.

That said, a gentle introduction might not hurt him :D as suggested, a soulknife or psychic warrior which do not challenge the established party roles might not hurt. Or you could try a prestige class which expands psionics for a non-psionic character. I'm paring my monk off into a Fist of Zuoken as soon as I can, and while it grants some interesting abilities it is hardly unbalanced.

The pros and cons of psionics compared to regular magic are simple enough:

Powers are more flexible than spells (by and large) but you have less of them.

Power points are more flexible than spontaneous casting, but augmentation of powers is not automatic as it is with spells and must be paid for with power points.
Granpa_Weatherwax
05-23-06, 06:06 PM If your DM if a hater - it's just not worth the effort and stress to argue against someone with an unreasonable prejudice against them - or just dislike the flavour. Really, it might be fun and games online, on boards like these, but not with people you actually play with...

meh, I don't think he is a hater, he just hasn't had enough time to get to know psionics.
tiercel
05-23-06, 10:40 PM meh, I don't think he is a hater, he just hasn't had enough time to get to know psionics.Er... well, it's going to be hard to convince your DM to allow something he doesn't know into his campaign. That's just good sense really.

Does he own a copy of XPH? If he does, ask him to look over it and tell him what you are specifically interested in (so he doesn't have to digest every class and power to figure out if it is a potential problem). If he doesn't, lend him yours (I'm assuming you have one if you want to play a psion) and get him to look at it.

In terms of augmenting etc., let him know that it should be OK if you face at least the credible threat of multiple (around 4) encounters a day. Let him know that, yeah, psions are going to look a little sick if he is regularly running one significant encounter per game day and your characters know it (but then, he's already tilting the deck toward spellcasters generally anyway by doing so).

If he is kind of stuffed for time though, it's better to play in a game as your second choice of character than not to play in a game at all.
zae
05-24-06, 05:00 AM I'm going to put my own dislike of psionics aside for this post.

---

If you're the only psion in the world, then you really don't fit, concept-wise. Now, using magic-psionic transparency, simply call yourself a sorcerer. Yes, I'm reversing someone elses idea. Ask your DM if that suits the campaign better. A "sorcerer" who happens to cast their spells differently.

If the problem is the mechanics, well, you might have to let it go this time - DMs really should understand something before they allow it (whether that be psionics, or incarnum, or regular magic, or grappling, or anything really). If he doesn't have a good grasp of them (I'm not saying inside-out knowledge) then maybe wait for another time. Ask him to go through it in the meantime, bit by bit, so that he can get the whole idea of it so you can be a psion next time.
Cifer
05-24-06, 05:13 AM If you're the only psion in the world, then you really don't fit, concept-wise.
Actually, that is a concept introduced in the XPH: Psionics are new to the world and noone really knows about them.
Dei
05-24-06, 05:24 AM Do what I did, go to him with every power and ask him, may I? If not, ask him what needs to be changed about it before you can use it. In the end psionics ended up almost totally home-brewed and rather nerfed in many ways but since I wanted to be a psion for character flavour rather than power I really did not mind at all.

Also, I would suggest that if you do run a play-test session to get into your new characters, don't abuse those aspects of it that he is averse to. Even if it would be more effective to do so, don't use the same power multiple times, avoid things like astral constructs if it's a high level game as they get stupidly powerful very, very quickly and for the love of God don't augment powers to start with and don't raise the saving throws, ever, at all, ever, ever, ever. I don't want to start the psionics/anti-psionics debate but it is so easy to abuse psionic powers that it can be utterly exasperating for the DM, and the other players as well tbh and to make playing one fun for everyone it really is up to the player.
Granpa_Weatherwax
05-24-06, 07:26 AM Do what I did, go to him with every power and ask him, may I?
That's a good idea. he may be having a problem with only a few powers (mind thrust for example)
Also, I would suggest that if you do run a play-test session to get into your new characters, don't abuse those aspects of it that he is averse to.

Maybe. He was willing to let me play a psion untill i used my main offensive power in combat. Nevermind that two out of the three of the times i used it they made their saves. ahwell. thanks for the advice folks
Sornas
05-24-06, 09:04 AM Most likely, I am the DM in question. Now before anyone bites my head off about being a Psionic hater, let me explain.

First, you are correct, I do not know Psionics well, and do not know how to appropriately challenge them at this point.

Two, I do NOT use the four encounters a day rule, our group is so unruly that one minor encounter takes a whole session, so this is unrealistic. (And as for leaning towards spellcasters, well, Weatherwax is the only player capable of playing an intelligent caster in our group in the first place, and I would have no problems if he was another kind of caster. Everyone else is simply concerned with how much fire they can chuck around at everything that moves...hostile or not.)

Last, Yes, I do have a slight problem with Mind thrust, a level 10 psion with decent int dealing 10d10 10 times a day does in fact bother me. Granted, I also dislike the save or die spells that other casters start getting into, if that means anything. (Although, after typing this, I am looking at the SRD... and Watherwax forgot to mention that it was Will negates...instead of Will half.)

Oh, and as a note, I am willing to learn them, but it seems like a moot point at this time, because this is a high school group, and myself and the other DM are graduating in about 2 weeks, leaving Weatherwax as the head of the club, things are a little hectic right now for me to be learning a whole new system too.
Witch
05-24-06, 09:23 AM At least your concerns are well founded then :)
danielinthewolvesden
05-24-06, 12:13 PM First, you are correct, I do not know Psionics well, and do not know how to appropriately challenge them at this point.

Two, I do NOT use the four encounters a day rule, our group is so unruly that one minor encounter takes a whole session, so this is unrealistic.

Oh, and as a note, I am willing to learn them, but it seems like a moot point at this time, because this is a high school group, and myself and the other DM are graduating in about 2 weeks, leaving Weatherwax as the head of the club, things are a little hectic right now for me to be learning a whole new system too.

Yes, and thus you are completely correct. Unless both the DM and the Player know the Psionic rules very well, they are "broken".

Next- Psions are the exact opposite of Warlocks- they can be VERY powerful in 1 or 2 encounters a day by burning their PP like mad, whilst a Warlock can go all day. In a campaign like yours a Psion would be overpowering and a spotlite hog to boot. (A Warlock would be pitiful :weep: )

This final bit convinces me entirely- don't bother with Psionics now.

Note that I am NOT saying that "Psionics= broken". It's not. It's just that you need to understand it, and it is capable of being super-powerful in a one encounter a day game.
Granpa_Weatherwax
05-24-06, 12:54 PM meep, uhhh, hey sornas... :embarrass :embarrass i wasn't bad talkin u or anything but this was just help cause other campagnes i play sometimes have anti psionic dms, and i'd rather not have wasted thirty bucks on a book i can't use... :D :D :D its the TRUTH!!!
Deekin
05-24-06, 01:11 PM See the sig, under the truth.
OravennasBrother
05-24-06, 02:11 PM How can I convince my DM to let me use psionics in a setting where I would probably be the only psion?
You cannot. Any DM worth playing with won't cave and completely alter the reality of his game world just because one player wants to play a Psion.
Vaelan
05-25-06, 02:52 AM If you don't run four encounters per day, don't run Psionics.

You shouldn't be running any kind of /day system at all, but most people can't be bothered to do anything more than limit the number of broken systems they use.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Granpa_Weatherwax 05-23-06, 12:42 PM	How can I convince my DM to let me use psionics in a setting where I would probably be the only psion? The thing that he really doesn't like is the concept of power points and augmenting but I don't think it is all that broken. Tips please :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help:
geekling 05-23-06, 12:47 PM	Psionics is like marmite. There are two kinds of people in the world - those that love it and those that hate it. If your DM if a hater - it's just not worth the effort and stress to argue against someone with an unreasonable prejudice against them - or just dislike the flavour. Really, it might be fun and games online, on boards like these, but not with people you actually play with...
ProfWhy 05-23-06, 12:56 PM	You could always ask him to have you play a psion for a test run, just so he can see how they can be played in actual gaming sessions... This way he could see that the PSPs and the augmenting isn't too bad or anything... (Of course, I hope you're talking about using the XPH instead of the Psionics Handbood...) Of course, if the DM remains steadfast in his decision about not letting in psionics, then that's his ruling... You can then either play an accepted class in his campaign or you can find a different campaign that allows psionics...
Witch 05-23-06, 01:01 PM	How can I convince my DM to let me use psionics in a setting where I would probably be the only psion? Nothing. If it doesn't exist in the setting, he'll not allow you. The thing that he really doesn't like is the concept of power points and augmenting but I don't think it is all that broken. Tips please This is a different case. However, psionics are hard to balance. They are balanced against the 4-encounters-per-day rule. Not every campaign uses this, and in a campaign which has less per day, the psion could become broken, easily. Maybe it's thát, which he doesn't like.
jasper 05-23-06, 03:21 PM	How about you dm with psionics and let him play a psion? Dm set limits for their comfortable level. Don't try to make your dm uncomfortable.
Nephlite 05-23-06, 03:41 PM	How can I convince my DM to let me use psionics in a setting where I would probably be the only psion? The thing that he really doesn't like is the concept of power points and augmenting but I don't think it is all that broken. Tips please :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: Maybe be better to try a Wilder or a Psychic warrior first so he gets used to Psionics. Psions are harder for DMsto understand the first time because they cast like sorcerior (spontanously) and aren't stunted in growth (they get 2nd level powers at 3rd level instead of 4th like a Sorceror). So you can either hope he changes mind or try Wilder or Psychic Warrior to ease him into psionics. You can show him the Wilder's low powers known or the Psychic warriors 3/4th bab and low pp growth as reasons why it should not be broken. Alternately: Ask him why you are only psion? What about mindflayers?
InterSilva 05-23-06, 04:28 PM	Play a Sorcerer and say your powers are psionic instead of magical. Most DMs use psi-magic transparency rules anyway. All the flavor, none of the hassle for your DM.
kelvinaw273 05-23-06, 04:44 PM	If he does not like the idea, or has a campaign into which they don't fit, you'll just have to lump it. Psionics are not broken, but they are an unknown to some DMs, and anything unknown (just look at the references to 'splatbooks' in these postings) can repidly become unbalanced as the DM does not know it enough to play to your weaknesses as he does with the rest of the party. That said, a gentle introduction might not hurt him :D as suggested, a soulknife or psychic warrior which do not challenge the established party roles might not hurt. Or you could try a prestige class which expands psionics for a non-psionic character. I'm paring my monk off into a Fist of Zuoken as soon as I can, and while it grants some interesting abilities it is hardly unbalanced. The pros and cons of psionics compared to regular magic are simple enough: Powers are more flexible than spells (by and large) but you have less of them. Power points are more flexible than spontaneous casting, but augmentation of powers is not automatic as it is with spells and must be paid for with power points.
Granpa_Weatherwax 05-23-06, 06:06 PM	If your DM if a hater - it's just not worth the effort and stress to argue against someone with an unreasonable prejudice against them - or just dislike the flavour. Really, it might be fun and games online, on boards like these, but not with people you actually play with... meh, I don't think he is a hater, he just hasn't had enough time to get to know psionics.
tiercel 05-23-06, 10:40 PM	meh, I don't think he is a hater, he just hasn't had enough time to get to know psionics.Er... well, it's going to be hard to convince your DM to allow something he doesn't know into his campaign. That's just good sense really. Does he own a copy of XPH? If he does, ask him to look over it and tell him what you are specifically interested in (so he doesn't have to digest every class and power to figure out if it is a potential problem). If he doesn't, lend him yours (I'm assuming you have one if you want to play a psion) and get him to look at it. In terms of augmenting etc., let him know that it should be OK if you face at least the credible threat of multiple (around 4) encounters a day. Let him know that, yeah, psions are going to look a little sick if he is regularly running one significant encounter per game day and your characters know it (but then, he's already tilting the deck toward spellcasters generally anyway by doing so). If he is kind of stuffed for time though, it's better to play in a game as your second choice of character than not to play in a game at all.
zae 05-24-06, 05:00 AM	I'm going to put my own dislike of psionics aside for this post. --- If you're the only psion in the world, then you really don't fit, concept-wise. Now, using magic-psionic transparency, simply call yourself a sorcerer. Yes, I'm reversing someone elses idea. Ask your DM if that suits the campaign better. A "sorcerer" who happens to cast their spells differently. If the problem is the mechanics, well, you might have to let it go this time - DMs really should understand something before they allow it (whether that be psionics, or incarnum, or regular magic, or grappling, or anything really). If he doesn't have a good grasp of them (I'm not saying inside-out knowledge) then maybe wait for another time. Ask him to go through it in the meantime, bit by bit, so that he can get the whole idea of it so you can be a psion next time.
Cifer 05-24-06, 05:13 AM	If you're the only psion in the world, then you really don't fit, concept-wise. Actually, that is a concept introduced in the XPH: Psionics are new to the world and noone really knows about them.
Dei 05-24-06, 05:24 AM	Do what I did, go to him with every power and ask him, may I? If not, ask him what needs to be changed about it before you can use it. In the end psionics ended up almost totally home-brewed and rather nerfed in many ways but since I wanted to be a psion for character flavour rather than power I really did not mind at all. Also, I would suggest that if you do run a play-test session to get into your new characters, don't abuse those aspects of it that he is averse to. Even if it would be more effective to do so, don't use the same power multiple times, avoid things like astral constructs if it's a high level game as they get stupidly powerful very, very quickly and for the love of God don't augment powers to start with and don't raise the saving throws, ever, at all, ever, ever, ever. I don't want to start the psionics/anti-psionics debate but it is so easy to abuse psionic powers that it can be utterly exasperating for the DM, and the other players as well tbh and to make playing one fun for everyone it really is up to the player.
Granpa_Weatherwax 05-24-06, 07:26 AM	Do what I did, go to him with every power and ask him, may I? That's a good idea. he may be having a problem with only a few powers (mind thrust for example) Also, I would suggest that if you do run a play-test session to get into your new characters, don't abuse those aspects of it that he is averse to. Maybe. He was willing to let me play a psion untill i used my main offensive power in combat. Nevermind that two out of the three of the times i used it they made their saves. ahwell. thanks for the advice folks
Sornas 05-24-06, 09:04 AM	Most likely, I am the DM in question. Now before anyone bites my head off about being a Psionic hater, let me explain. First, you are correct, I do not know Psionics well, and do not know how to appropriately challenge them at this point. Two, I do NOT use the four encounters a day rule, our group is so unruly that one minor encounter takes a whole session, so this is unrealistic. (And as for leaning towards spellcasters, well, Weatherwax is the only player capable of playing an intelligent caster in our group in the first place, and I would have no problems if he was another kind of caster. Everyone else is simply concerned with how much fire they can chuck around at everything that moves...hostile or not.) Last, Yes, I do have a slight problem with Mind thrust, a level 10 psion with decent int dealing 10d10 10 times a day does in fact bother me. Granted, I also dislike the save or die spells that other casters start getting into, if that means anything. (Although, after typing this, I am looking at the SRD... and Watherwax forgot to mention that it was Will negates...instead of Will half.) Oh, and as a note, I am willing to learn them, but it seems like a moot point at this time, because this is a high school group, and myself and the other DM are graduating in about 2 weeks, leaving Weatherwax as the head of the club, things are a little hectic right now for me to be learning a whole new system too.
Witch 05-24-06, 09:23 AM	At least your concerns are well founded then :)
danielinthewolvesden 05-24-06, 12:13 PM	First, you are correct, I do not know Psionics well, and do not know how to appropriately challenge them at this point. Two, I do NOT use the four encounters a day rule, our group is so unruly that one minor encounter takes a whole session, so this is unrealistic. Oh, and as a note, I am willing to learn them, but it seems like a moot point at this time, because this is a high school group, and myself and the other DM are graduating in about 2 weeks, leaving Weatherwax as the head of the club, things are a little hectic right now for me to be learning a whole new system too. Yes, and thus you are completely correct. Unless both the DM and the Player know the Psionic rules very well, they are "broken". Next- Psions are the exact opposite of Warlocks- they can be VERY powerful in 1 or 2 encounters a day by burning their PP like mad, whilst a Warlock can go all day. In a campaign like yours a Psion would be overpowering and a spotlite hog to boot. (A Warlock would be pitiful :weep: ) This final bit convinces me entirely- don't bother with Psionics now. Note that I am NOT saying that "Psionics= broken". It's not. It's just that you need to understand it, and it is capable of being super-powerful in a one encounter a day game.
Granpa_Weatherwax 05-24-06, 12:54 PM	meep, uhhh, hey sornas... :embarrass :embarrass i wasn't bad talkin u or anything but this was just help cause other campagnes i play sometimes have anti psionic dms, and i'd rather not have wasted thirty bucks on a book i can't use... :D :D :D its the TRUTH!!!
Deekin 05-24-06, 01:11 PM	See the sig, under the truth.
OravennasBrother 05-24-06, 02:11 PM	How can I convince my DM to let me use psionics in a setting where I would probably be the only psion? You cannot. Any DM worth playing with won't cave and completely alter the reality of his game world just because one player wants to play a Psion.
Vaelan 05-25-06, 02:52 AM	If you don't run four encounters per day, don't run Psionics. You shouldn't be running any kind of /day system at all, but most people can't be bothered to do anything more than limit the number of broken systems they use.