How can I do this in 3.5 combat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How can I do this in 3.5 combat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheBlackLotus
12-05-03, 12:03 AM Hello everyone, and thank you for the time it will take you to read this post if you choose to, I appreciate it and look forward to the responses.

Here are my questions.
With current game mechanics, im not sure exactly how to make this work, or what combinations of skills/to hit/saves/ whatever would have to be made, or if there are already feats somewhere that would allow me to do these things.

My charecter is a 20th lvl monk, I have played him for 8 years now, yes, 8 years to get to lvl 20. I played him primarily in 2nd edition to 20, and then stopped, and just recently converted him when our primary DM wished to incorporate our old "power charecters" back into the current campaign.

Im not exactly sure though, how certain things that I would do with no problem in 2nd edition, would be able to be done in 3.0 or 3.5 rules.

Examples:

1. I am fighting someone in unarmed combat. I want to grab the person, and throw him into a wall. How would it work with the existing game mechanics?

I know there is the "defensive throw" feat in the oriental adventures but,.. its just that. A defensive throw. I dont want to do a defensive throw, I want to do an offensive throw, on a whim, in melee combat without having to select that person with the dodge feat (which I chose not to take anyways), and have to wait for him to attack and miss me as in the "defensive throw" feat description.

What would I have to do in your opinions, or what mechanics do you use in your games for this.
Would I have to make a "to hit", then a grapple check, then a trip check? Grapple check then opposed strength check? Trip check by itself? Trip check then a "to hit" to see if I can throw him into the wall? What do you all think would be appropriate, and what do you think I should propose to the DM's of my group for this?

And for my next question:

2. Lets say that Im engaged in melee combat with a group of badies, with friends nearby, also fighting their own npcs. All of us relatively near to each other. If I saw that one of my friends was about to be flanked by an opponent while I myself am being swarmed by bad guys,... Is there anyway possable that I could under some type of ruling, hit/kick one of my opponents in such a way, as to hurl them backwards in an attempt to have them slam into the bad guy flanking my friend? Or anything along those lines.

Im not sure if I accurately described exactly what I would like to do, but I will try to explain a little better. What would YOU think that the mechanics would or should be, to have to throw or hit an opponent into another opponent that is maybe 5-10ft away?

Ive thought of some very confusing ideas today at work, but really need help to figure out how I could do it.
Follow my attack with a trip check? Then another to hit to see if I "aimed" him right?
Bad guy has to make a balance check, dc being the damage of my hit? I cant think of anyway that punching/kicking your opponent could do what I would wish to achieve with the current 3.5 rules. Is there any ideas that you guys and gals have, that might be able to help me? Any ideas would be helpful and greatly appreciated, plus, something sometimes foreign to these boards, all opinions and ideas I will treat with the utmost respect. :) heh

In case they are a factor for any of your ideas or anything you might be able to think of, I will include some of my monks stats, they arent epic by any means, and compared to some of your monks they are probably downright humble, but remember, this is a newly converted charecter, so be gentle. heh
If there are any questions on what ranks I have in varius skills, or anything at all you might need to know about my charecter, please let me know. I would be happy to divulge anything that might help me figure out what I can do.

The downside,... we are gaming this saturday, so I really only have a day and a half.

(the below stats are listed, WITH magic bonus's, not my base scores. Also, bear in mind that my magic items arent being listed. And, certain attributes have been raised with wishes and the deck of many things. This charecter has been gamed for 8 years. (and yes, I know you can only have a +5 inherent bonus for abilities)

Str: 22
Int: 20
Wis: 26
Dex: 33
Con: 23
Cha: (who cares heh)

Highest Attack Bonus: +40
Grapple Checks: +47
Trip Checks: +15

I really dont want to list out all my other stuff, cause our DM's browse these boards, and I dont want to show all my ammunition to them before I have to use it, if you know what I mean.

But, thank you all for the time you have taken to read this, and I appreciate, and look forward to whatever ideas you all have, to how those 2 questions of mine could be resolved with current gaming mechanics. Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
Wuyi Xuan, Grandmaster of the Jade Brotherhood.
SureFoot
12-05-03, 01:17 PM Originally posted by TheBlackLotus

1. I am fighting someone in unarmed combat. I want to grab the person, and throw him into a wall. How would it work with the existing game mechanics?

Hmmm . . . from my knowledge of the core rules, the only way I can think of to move an opponent in combat is with a bull rush. I would opine that the move you're describing would be combining a grapple (provoking an AoO) and a bull rush (also provoking an AoO). From memory (too lazy to check SRD), a bull rush is a standard action, so you could not do both of these in teh same round.

Also, since you're using the opponent as a "weapon" I would also force a "non proficiency penalty" to your bull rush (which is really an attack the way you're doing it).

2. Lets say that Im engaged in melee combat with a group of badies, with friends nearby, also fighting their own npcs. All of us relatively near to each other. If I saw that one of my friends was about to be flanked by an opponent while I myself am being swarmed by bad guys,... Is there anyway possable that I could under some type of ruling, hit/kick one of my opponents in such a way, as to hurl them backwards in an attempt to have them slam into the bad guy flanking my friend? Or anything along those lines.

Once again, you're really combining two things--a bull rush (with a kick) and a missile attack (using the "bull-rushee" as the missile). I would allow you to try this, but would apply stiff penalties: non-proficiency penalty for attacking with an unfamiliar "weapon" (the person you're kicking into someone else); the "bullrushee" would be allowed some kind of save/skill check to avoid hitting the "target"; the "target" would be allowed some sort of save to avoid moving if he's hit by the "bullrushee."

I'd also impose stiff penalties on your "bull rushing kick" since you're modifying a standard bullrush (not following your opponent, only trying ot move him with a single kick).

Finally, I think that this would not be very effective, because I definitley would rule that the person hit by the other person could not be moved more than 5', and could thus take a 5' step next round to flank anyway.

Not trying to squelch your ideas, because they're imaginative; but they don't seem like they'd really work in a fight against anything near roughly equal opponents. (against weaklings, sure . . .)
Arindor
12-05-03, 02:42 PM Sorry I'm not going to be much help here but I remember a while back a discussion on how to throw creatures. You might want to do a search as I think this topic has been covered before.
Orcish Fury
12-05-03, 04:51 PM To throw:
1) Successfully grapple your opponent.
2) Pin said opponent so that you have some control over him.
3) Throw said opponent as a missle weapon.

This will take more than one round, but seeing as how each round is 6 seconds, it seems pretty realistic.
KShaver
12-05-03, 04:58 PM Originally posted by TheBlackLotus
1. I am fighting someone in unarmed combat. I want to grab the person, and throw him into a wall. How would it work with the existing game mechanics?

You are allowed to move opponents as part of a grapple. There is no throw per se, but you could move him. Otherwise you are talking a bulls rush, which easily be used to represent a throw.

2. Lets say that Im engaged in melee combat with a group of badies, with friends nearby, also fighting their own npcs. All of us relatively near to each other. If I saw that one of my friends was about to be flanked by an opponent while I myself am being swarmed by bad guys,... Is there anyway possable that I could under some type of ruling, hit/kick one of my opponents in such a way, as to hurl them backwards in an attempt to have them slam into the bad guy flanking my friend? Or anything along those lines.

Having just read the Complete Warrior the other day I saw something that might cover this. It allowed you to use a bulls rush to push one opponent into another and knock them both over. I believe it was a maneuver within a tactical feat and was called domino or something similar.

You may want to look into the tactical feats as each one is less a feat but more a style of fighting that allows you to perform several unusual maneuvers. There were several martial arts tactical feats in the Complete Warrior.
TheBlackLotus
12-05-03, 11:52 PM Thank you all very much, I appreciate the help.
Duder_X
12-07-03, 01:16 AM Me and my group (one guy in particular, who is obsessed with using enemies as missile weapons/wall decorations) have gone over ways to throw enemies and knock enemies around many times. The best way is what Orcish Fury said. Grab, pin, throw. You will get penalties, and down count on getting him very far.
If you're A) throwing him into a wall or B) throwing him into an enemy, there are two ways to finish it:
A) there's no way you're going to throw a creature your size or larger into a wall and have it hurt that bad. Your size, subduel dmg, probably not very much. dm's choice. larger... I hope your DM is very giving. if they're smaller than you, it'd be easier. We usually do 1d4 points of dmg for every size catagory smaller than you, but subtract one die for every 5 feet you threw the creature. If the creature is unconcious, we use d6s.
B) Basically, you're trying to trip one opponant with the other. We do this the same as you would a whip, or chain. Just make a trip attack (with penalties, because you're (probably) not proficiant with "enemy") against one enemy. If you succeed, he's knocked down. If not, one is prone at the other's feet. For every size catagory the thrown was is smaller than the other, you get a -2.
(Once, our DM had the Troll my friend threw a Goblin at catch the goblin and knock over our halfing with it.)
TheBlackLotus
12-07-03, 04:14 PM Well, last night we got to try it out for the first time in 3.0-3.5 .

In the underdark going though "the city of the spider-queen" adventure, which the dm pumped the heck out of to set it for our lvl 15-20 charecters. (all the npc's were now upped a good 8 lvls).

At one point a drow was fleeing from us back to warn its companions at an outpost (we were fighting in a few nicely placed silence 10' radius spells), I did a spring attack and grappled him just before he left the radius of the silence. Won innitiative the next round, used one attack to use my stunning fist on him while I had him grappled, asked my DM if i could do a trip attack to knock him off of his feat, and pick him up with a high Str Check. He looked at me like (ok, what are you going to do?).
I rolled a natural 20 on my str check giving me a str check of 27 to pick up a stunned, 120lb dark elf. And threw him with yet another 20, at my companion who was 10ft away, he rolled a critical with his greatsword (ala baseball), and cleaved the dark elf in half. I rolled damage, and informed the Dm that I had done 2 points of subdual damage after the sword hit, and asked the DM how he would like to divide the 2 points between the cleaved in half dark elf. heh.

It was very,.. very nice.
Thank you guys. With all of your suggestions, I am letting my dm's know about all of them, and they are trying to decide what they think would work best for the present rules that we currently use. All of the help has been very appreciated.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheBlackLotus 12-05-03, 12:03 AM	Hello everyone, and thank you for the time it will take you to read this post if you choose to, I appreciate it and look forward to the responses. Here are my questions. With current game mechanics, im not sure exactly how to make this work, or what combinations of skills/to hit/saves/ whatever would have to be made, or if there are already feats somewhere that would allow me to do these things. My charecter is a 20th lvl monk, I have played him for 8 years now, yes, 8 years to get to lvl 20. I played him primarily in 2nd edition to 20, and then stopped, and just recently converted him when our primary DM wished to incorporate our old "power charecters" back into the current campaign. Im not exactly sure though, how certain things that I would do with no problem in 2nd edition, would be able to be done in 3.0 or 3.5 rules. Examples: 1. I am fighting someone in unarmed combat. I want to grab the person, and throw him into a wall. How would it work with the existing game mechanics? I know there is the "defensive throw" feat in the oriental adventures but,.. its just that. A defensive throw. I dont want to do a defensive throw, I want to do an offensive throw, on a whim, in melee combat without having to select that person with the dodge feat (which I chose not to take anyways), and have to wait for him to attack and miss me as in the "defensive throw" feat description. What would I have to do in your opinions, or what mechanics do you use in your games for this. Would I have to make a "to hit", then a grapple check, then a trip check? Grapple check then opposed strength check? Trip check by itself? Trip check then a "to hit" to see if I can throw him into the wall? What do you all think would be appropriate, and what do you think I should propose to the DM's of my group for this? And for my next question: 2. Lets say that Im engaged in melee combat with a group of badies, with friends nearby, also fighting their own npcs. All of us relatively near to each other. If I saw that one of my friends was about to be flanked by an opponent while I myself am being swarmed by bad guys,... Is there anyway possable that I could under some type of ruling, hit/kick one of my opponents in such a way, as to hurl them backwards in an attempt to have them slam into the bad guy flanking my friend? Or anything along those lines. Im not sure if I accurately described exactly what I would like to do, but I will try to explain a little better. What would YOU think that the mechanics would or should be, to have to throw or hit an opponent into another opponent that is maybe 5-10ft away? Ive thought of some very confusing ideas today at work, but really need help to figure out how I could do it. Follow my attack with a trip check? Then another to hit to see if I "aimed" him right? Bad guy has to make a balance check, dc being the damage of my hit? I cant think of anyway that punching/kicking your opponent could do what I would wish to achieve with the current 3.5 rules. Is there any ideas that you guys and gals have, that might be able to help me? Any ideas would be helpful and greatly appreciated, plus, something sometimes foreign to these boards, all opinions and ideas I will treat with the utmost respect. :) heh In case they are a factor for any of your ideas or anything you might be able to think of, I will include some of my monks stats, they arent epic by any means, and compared to some of your monks they are probably downright humble, but remember, this is a newly converted charecter, so be gentle. heh If there are any questions on what ranks I have in varius skills, or anything at all you might need to know about my charecter, please let me know. I would be happy to divulge anything that might help me figure out what I can do. The downside,... we are gaming this saturday, so I really only have a day and a half. (the below stats are listed, WITH magic bonus's, not my base scores. Also, bear in mind that my magic items arent being listed. And, certain attributes have been raised with wishes and the deck of many things. This charecter has been gamed for 8 years. (and yes, I know you can only have a +5 inherent bonus for abilities) Str: 22 Int: 20 Wis: 26 Dex: 33 Con: 23 Cha: (who cares heh) Highest Attack Bonus: +40 Grapple Checks: +47 Trip Checks: +15 I really dont want to list out all my other stuff, cause our DM's browse these boards, and I dont want to show all my ammunition to them before I have to use it, if you know what I mean. But, thank you all for the time you have taken to read this, and I appreciate, and look forward to whatever ideas you all have, to how those 2 questions of mine could be resolved with current gaming mechanics. Thank you very much. Sincerely, Wuyi Xuan, Grandmaster of the Jade Brotherhood.
SureFoot 12-05-03, 01:17 PM	Originally posted by TheBlackLotus 1. I am fighting someone in unarmed combat. I want to grab the person, and throw him into a wall. How would it work with the existing game mechanics? Hmmm . . . from my knowledge of the core rules, the only way I can think of to move an opponent in combat is with a bull rush. I would opine that the move you're describing would be combining a grapple (provoking an AoO) and a bull rush (also provoking an AoO). From memory (too lazy to check SRD), a bull rush is a standard action, so you could not do both of these in teh same round. Also, since you're using the opponent as a "weapon" I would also force a "non proficiency penalty" to your bull rush (which is really an attack the way you're doing it). 2. Lets say that Im engaged in melee combat with a group of badies, with friends nearby, also fighting their own npcs. All of us relatively near to each other. If I saw that one of my friends was about to be flanked by an opponent while I myself am being swarmed by bad guys,... Is there anyway possable that I could under some type of ruling, hit/kick one of my opponents in such a way, as to hurl them backwards in an attempt to have them slam into the bad guy flanking my friend? Or anything along those lines. Once again, you're really combining two things--a bull rush (with a kick) and a missile attack (using the "bull-rushee" as the missile). I would allow you to try this, but would apply stiff penalties: non-proficiency penalty for attacking with an unfamiliar "weapon" (the person you're kicking into someone else); the "bullrushee" would be allowed some kind of save/skill check to avoid hitting the "target"; the "target" would be allowed some sort of save to avoid moving if he's hit by the "bullrushee." I'd also impose stiff penalties on your "bull rushing kick" since you're modifying a standard bullrush (not following your opponent, only trying ot move him with a single kick). Finally, I think that this would not be very effective, because I definitley would rule that the person hit by the other person could not be moved more than 5', and could thus take a 5' step next round to flank anyway. Not trying to squelch your ideas, because they're imaginative; but they don't seem like they'd really work in a fight against anything near roughly equal opponents. (against weaklings, sure . . .)
Arindor 12-05-03, 02:42 PM	Sorry I'm not going to be much help here but I remember a while back a discussion on how to throw creatures. You might want to do a search as I think this topic has been covered before.
Orcish Fury 12-05-03, 04:51 PM	To throw: 1) Successfully grapple your opponent. 2) Pin said opponent so that you have some control over him. 3) Throw said opponent as a missle weapon. This will take more than one round, but seeing as how each round is 6 seconds, it seems pretty realistic.
KShaver 12-05-03, 04:58 PM	Originally posted by TheBlackLotus 1. I am fighting someone in unarmed combat. I want to grab the person, and throw him into a wall. How would it work with the existing game mechanics? You are allowed to move opponents as part of a grapple. There is no throw per se, but you could move him. Otherwise you are talking a bulls rush, which easily be used to represent a throw. 2. Lets say that Im engaged in melee combat with a group of badies, with friends nearby, also fighting their own npcs. All of us relatively near to each other. If I saw that one of my friends was about to be flanked by an opponent while I myself am being swarmed by bad guys,... Is there anyway possable that I could under some type of ruling, hit/kick one of my opponents in such a way, as to hurl them backwards in an attempt to have them slam into the bad guy flanking my friend? Or anything along those lines. Having just read the Complete Warrior the other day I saw something that might cover this. It allowed you to use a bulls rush to push one opponent into another and knock them both over. I believe it was a maneuver within a tactical feat and was called domino or something similar. You may want to look into the tactical feats as each one is less a feat but more a style of fighting that allows you to perform several unusual maneuvers. There were several martial arts tactical feats in the Complete Warrior.
TheBlackLotus 12-05-03, 11:52 PM	Thank you all very much, I appreciate the help.
Duder_X 12-07-03, 01:16 AM	Me and my group (one guy in particular, who is obsessed with using enemies as missile weapons/wall decorations) have gone over ways to throw enemies and knock enemies around many times. The best way is what Orcish Fury said. Grab, pin, throw. You will get penalties, and down count on getting him very far. If you're A) throwing him into a wall or B) throwing him into an enemy, there are two ways to finish it: A) there's no way you're going to throw a creature your size or larger into a wall and have it hurt that bad. Your size, subduel dmg, probably not very much. dm's choice. larger... I hope your DM is very giving. if they're smaller than you, it'd be easier. We usually do 1d4 points of dmg for every size catagory smaller than you, but subtract one die for every 5 feet you threw the creature. If the creature is unconcious, we use d6s. B) Basically, you're trying to trip one opponant with the other. We do this the same as you would a whip, or chain. Just make a trip attack (with penalties, because you're (probably) not proficiant with "enemy") against one enemy. If you succeed, he's knocked down. If not, one is prone at the other's feet. For every size catagory the thrown was is smaller than the other, you get a -2. (Once, our DM had the Troll my friend threw a Goblin at catch the goblin and knock over our halfing with it.)
TheBlackLotus 12-07-03, 04:14 PM	Well, last night we got to try it out for the first time in 3.0-3.5 . In the underdark going though "the city of the spider-queen" adventure, which the dm pumped the heck out of to set it for our lvl 15-20 charecters. (all the npc's were now upped a good 8 lvls). At one point a drow was fleeing from us back to warn its companions at an outpost (we were fighting in a few nicely placed silence 10' radius spells), I did a spring attack and grappled him just before he left the radius of the silence. Won innitiative the next round, used one attack to use my stunning fist on him while I had him grappled, asked my DM if i could do a trip attack to knock him off of his feat, and pick him up with a high Str Check. He looked at me like (ok, what are you going to do?). I rolled a natural 20 on my str check giving me a str check of 27 to pick up a stunned, 120lb dark elf. And threw him with yet another 20, at my companion who was 10ft away, he rolled a critical with his greatsword (ala baseball), and cleaved the dark elf in half. I rolled damage, and informed the Dm that I had done 2 points of subdual damage after the sword hit, and asked the DM how he would like to divide the 2 points between the cleaved in half dark elf. heh. It was very,.. very nice. Thank you guys. With all of your suggestions, I am letting my dm's know about all of them, and they are trying to decide what they think would work best for the present rules that we currently use. All of the help has been very appreciated.