Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Callista 04-05-05, 12:01 AM	Our current DM is pretty good, as DMs go; he's only in his first year of DMing (and I'm in my first six months of it--we're all newbies in my group). I do have one problem with it, though... sometimes he runs things a lot like a video game. What I mean is that, when we enter a dungeon, no one tries to raise an alarm, alert anyone else, or flee a battle (or, if they do, we catch and kill them in the next room). Basically, we end up "clearing the dungeon" over the course of several game-days... and during that time, no one notices we're there and tries to catch us, despite the fact that, for example, we just took out half the population of an enemy stronghold; or the grunts we killed in their barracks will have to report for duty somewhere and be missed; or the wizard running the evil experiment will realize we killed the half-dragon Ettin he produced who-knows-how. But that never happens. It seems we could happily live in an enemy castle, and nobody ever comes and try to kill us, because, for some reason, they don't notice we're even there! Now, if that were a result of our planning and strategy, I'd pat myself on the back... but it isn't. I'm the only one in the group who even thinks of such things. I've tried hinting. "Okay, I'm hiding those bodies under the bed, so anyone who comes in here won't see them." Or, "Let's see if we can't get that prisoner to tell us where he and his buddies were supposed to be today." Or, "We've been in here for three days--I can't believe the [BBEG] doesn't know we're here!" Once, I asked straight out why no one had noticed we were marauding freely through the stronghold; and the DM just shrugged and said, "Because you'd get killed if they knew." Well, isn't that the point of having a stronghold? So the enemy can't kill you five or six at a time, and the BBEG has people to defend him? And, perhaps, so that the PCs have to use actual stealth and strategy, rather than fighting monsters in neat little contained cubbyholes--monsters who don't even notice that 90% of the population of the castle has died in the past three days--till they get to the totally surprised BBEG? I also try to RP the fact that we might get killed on this particular mission... we're ECL 15 characters attempting to kill something which is low-Epic level... but this is kind of hard, since this particular DM has never allowed any players to die. The powergamers in the group, especially, feel totally invulnerable and are consequently ignoring strategy... one guy wanted my character to try to pick the lock on a door while we were unarmed, totally without equipment, in the dark, fighting four tiefling rogues... rather than attempting to disarm the rogues, getting their weapons for ourselves, and killing them, THEN opening the door. May I note that my character has a total modifier of +7 to Open Lock at level 12 (she's not the party's only rogue; and she's multiclassed to Paladin!), we were in the dark and she couldn't see the lock, and she had nothing but rat bones to use for lockpicks? Yeah, like that's gonna succeed... *sigh* Too many video games, I tell ya. Just had to get that off my back. Anything I can do to encourage my group to be a little more realistic, and not settle into video-game mode?
75RD Drum Clip 04-05-05, 12:41 AM	Sounds like your DM is still quite green. It might work better to talk about the issues you raised in person and private, people can be strange when called out about things in front of others.
Asciiman 04-05-05, 12:48 AM	It sounds to me like you are complaining that your DM is new and hasn't learned everything yet. All of us when we began to DM have done things that make little to no sense. Give him time, and he'll learn to slowly add things to make it all work better.
JFargo 04-05-05, 12:50 AM	I get the feeling that one of the biggest problems is that the DM is new, and scared of losing a PC, or perhaps the PC's player. Of course, the second thing that caught my eye was that the game is ECL 15. Did it start high level, or was this gradual? Sometimes things get a little wonky at high levels, and new DMs aren't always prepared for them...
Phrennzy 04-05-05, 12:52 AM	Print out what you just wrote and give it to him. And then talk to him. Out of game.
SnowbearK 04-05-05, 12:57 AM	All good ideas and thoughts. :) Just want to add that you sound like you really have what it takes to actually BE a good DM, Callista. Good luck!
weasel fierce 04-05-05, 12:58 AM	I agree. Have a talk about what you would like to see in the game, and what he or she prefers. THen find a middle ground
Callista 04-05-05, 02:06 AM	No, no... we started at level 3; that's one mistake he doesn't make. I just dunno... I'm newer than him; so why am I seeing this and he isn't? ECL 15 is because of bloodlines; we're actually character level 11 or 12.
SnowbearK 04-05-05, 03:11 AM	Why are some people capable of seeing numbers and letters in their dreams, while most aren't? Because that's how their minds work. DMing can't be reduced to a formulaic response, not even with the most advanced processors of our time. It's an art that depends on a certain way of seeing the world around you and the world around your player characters. Like any art, it's part science (pure rules-knowledge, physics, logic, etc) and part raw creativity (imagination, visualization, etc). Striking the right blend either takes many years of practice, or great talent. For most of really good DMs I know it's a combination of practice and talent.
Lina_Inverse 04-05-05, 03:51 AM	ahhhh good.you want logic not realism. yeah,talk to him.best thing you can do.
Temrek 04-05-05, 06:44 AM	Maybe you should offer to DM an adventure or two?
CzarGarrett 04-05-05, 09:35 AM	In some situations, its entirely reasonable to think adventurers could hide out in an enemy stronghold for a while. Theoretically, the enemies are evil. Evil guys sometimes fight each other, and don't want to admit when they kill another. Or maybe they stole a pouch of gold from the BBEG or a higher up, and ran off. So if there's a few people missing, its not a big issue. However, going in and slaughtering entire sqauds of enemies by the hour, then there should be a responce system in effect. As to getting out of video game mode? Thats more the DM's job. He's got to start by having the enemies pull stuff out of their buttocks and have all kinds of new stuff. Ninja Hobgoblins jumping down from the ceiling in an ambush. A hidden wizard with a system of mirrors and a Wand of Lightning Bolt. Just new and different stuff. Maybe then the other players will start thinking outside the box.
jasper 04-05-05, 05:00 PM	*sigh* Too many video games, I tell ya. No sorry that is not it. Just inexperience. I used to dm that way in the early years. After Pong but before intellivison.
Art_Tillary 04-06-05, 01:28 PM	Have you considered asking to let you run the evil guy's dungeon against the party? The DM still runs the adventure, but you sit in another room and react as the various leaders and subleaders. You tell the DM what orders you give and messengers, etc you send out. You'd have to pay close attention to time to avoid time line confussion. AT
Aliquid 04-06-05, 02:04 PM	No, no... we started at level 3; that's one mistake he doesn't make. I just dunno... I'm newer than him; so why am I seeing this and he isn't? ECL 15 is because of bloodlines; we're actually character level 11 or 12.Being new to DMing is actually quite challenging. There are tons of things for him to be keeping track of... it could simply be that he is so busy dealing with the details of the actual battles, that he doesn't have time to think about what's going on in the rest of the cave system. He might actually be aware of this problem, but he is just too overwhelmed to deal with it. I remember when I was first DMing. I wanted to describe each battle in detail, making it sound fun and exciting. You know... saying, "the ogre lunges at you, swinging his club squarely into your chest. The wind is knocked out of you, and you think you hear something crack.... (take 14 damage). As opposed to saying "the ogre hits you, take 14 damage" The problem was.... I was so busy keeping track of the hit points of all the enemy, the attack bonuses, the initiative... looking up specific rules when the players do something unexpected.... I just didn't have time to think of creative battle descriptions.
LordHell 04-06-05, 07:02 PM	Ok this is what I do in my games: I make my own adventures, but I'd do this for adventures that I didn't make either. First and foremost, Im a believer in consistant realistic worlds. That means if the party goes storming into a castle/dungeon/whatever - I'm sorry - unless they use extreme stealth somehow as soon as the alarm is raised its going to be one hell of a fight with the majority of the now alerted inhabitents. What I do is design flowcharts, saying, if the PC's do this then this happens everywhere else. This is how the monsters react to this, this is how many reinforcements arrive from where and this is how long it takes. The monsters in this room will begin constructing a barricade and the monsters in that room will begin preparing for an ambush. Its all about being prepared for everything before hand. While this is an almost impossible task (because your players ALWAYS do something unexpected) it certain helps make your adventures more believable and realistic. I like my worlds to revolve around the party a little, but mainly at the end of the day the party is PART OF a world that lives and breathes regardless of their actions. Being prepared is the key. I also agree with this: Like any art, it's part science (pure rules-knowledge, physics, logic, etc) and part raw creativity (imagination, visualization, etc). Striking the right blend either takes many years of practice, or great talent. For most of really good DMs I know it's a combination of practice and talent. DMing is an art and a science. The science part is being prepared, going through your 'doctrine' (The DMG, your adventure, the players handbook, etc). The art is knowing what to do when the PCs do something unexpected, describing your world in a rich and living way, grasping any opportunities that present themselves for something you havnt prepared, and most importantly - knowing whats working with your players and whats not.
trapspringer 04-07-05, 10:17 PM	What are you guys talking about? I was born knowing how to DM! I mean, what DM's first complete scentence isn't "Starting gold for a level 10 PC is 49,000 gp, mommy! In all honesty, it is really, really hard to run a game well until you have played in a game which is poorly run. I find that most of the good first-time DMs are coming straight out of a horrible, horrible campaign of DM arbitration and rail-roading. Maybe you guys should take turns for a few weeks. He is making some mistake, you see them. Show him a different way to do something. He will see some things you suck at, and show you a better way. Repeat this process a few times. It'll help you both.
Razoreface 04-08-05, 03:56 AM	No sorry that is not it. Just inexperience. I used to dm that way in the early years. After Pong but before intellivison. It's not really about experience.. I know people who have run games for years and still do things like that, but will also complain about lack of certain realistic things in more modern-era games.
Twisted Puppy 04-08-05, 10:52 AM	In all honesty, it is really, really hard to run a game well until you have played in a game which is poorly run. I find that most of the good first-time DMs are coming straight out of a horrible, horrible campaign of DM arbitration and rail-roading. Sometimes that may be the case. I've also found that a good first-time DM has played in one or more well-run games and picked up some good habits.
Maerdash 04-08-05, 01:36 PM	Talk to him/her alone first, if that doesnt help hire some sell swords to come in and attack the party yourself while you sleep that way the dm will realize that interupting rest can be a very nasty challenge to a party
danielinthewolvesden 04-08-05, 02:42 PM	There is a reason why D&D is a "Fantasy Roleplaying Game". If you want "realism", play D20 Modern- without any fantasy elements. :P Or- if you can do it better- offer to change places.
striderII 04-08-05, 03:19 PM	There is a reason why D&D is a "Fantasy Roleplaying Game". If you want "realism", play D20 Modern- without any fantasy elements. :P Or- if you can do it better- offer to change places. I would propose that the argument "it's a fantasy game, so realism be damned!" is fairly weak, to be honest. Perhaps certain elements of the game aren't realistic, inasmuch as we would perceive it. After all, in the real world, people don't throw fireballs, or teleport, or shapeshift. However, the game world must be realistic to itself. Callista is perfectly within her (I'm assuming her...is that right?) rights to expect a certain degree of realism within the context of the game world. Expecting guards to come when an alarm is raised only makes sense, after all. I would suggest that the excuse "it's fantasy, not real life!" is a cop out at best in a situation where the guards don't show up (for example). Now, there may be some mitigating circumstance where the guards are prevented from showing up, but if this is not the case, it leads to the "cop out" situation as described above. Besides, a consistant realism within the context of the game makes the fantastical elements at once both more believable, and more fantastic. Most of us would say that wizards, druids, clerics, and other spellcasters are standard fare in most campaigns (in one form or another). Thus we have come to expect that as part of the "realism" of the game world. However, when compared against things that are directly analogous to our own world, such as weapons, standard reactions of people, etc. these fantastical elements are shown in stark relief to the elements that are not so fantastic. Like adding truth to a lie, realism makes the game world that much more believable. strider
Razoreface 04-08-05, 08:36 PM	There is a reason why D&D is a "Fantasy Roleplaying Game". If you want "realism", play D20 Modern- without any fantasy elements. :P Oddly that's not how WotC designed or markets d20 Modern.. it's not supposed to be realistic. ;) But being able to travel within heavily occupied enemy territory, and kill large numbers of them (which is rather loud, incidentally), for days at a time without anyone wandering around and finding you has nothing at all to do with being a fantasy game. It's really just video game ridiculousness.