Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Worguron 04-11-05, 04:47 AM	I am currently in a relatively low level (6-7ish) gestalt game, and I have been running into a recurring problem. I am the party's only arcane caster (custom setting Sorceror//Noble), but the party doesn't seem to understand that I can't take melee damage. We are in a cavern complex, where we know there are many Thri-Kreen (funnily enough we have one in the party also). One of the party members starts trying to hack down a door with his Adamantine weapon, and rather than watching the one direction in which we haven't explored, the other party members all take up positions in corners and face the way we came from. I inform them that someone should take up a position at the tunnel leading further into the complex, and they tell me to do it. I attempt to impress on them that the Fighter//Rogue, Barbarian//(non-casting)Bard, or Paladin+Kensai//Cleric would be better suited to such a thing and they ignore me. After a few chops with his weapon the final party member (Monk//[non-casting]Ranger) gets shot (through the hole he just made in the door), and 9 Thri-Kreen come running down the hall towards us. Being unarmed, I don't get an attack of opportunity, and the Thri-kreen swarm the party. My fellow players make a few comments about me being a useless watchdog, and we proceed to fight. I get full attacked by two unarmed Thri-Kreen (4 claws + 2 bites with poison), a Thri-Kreen with two longspears, and two Thri-Kreen hurling 4 javelins each. Needless to say, I drop to the ground almost dead. Luckily for me, the healer was standing next to me and heals me enough to make me conscious, but I have nowhere to crawl to and know I cannot take an attack of opportunity. Thus, I defensively cast a fireball down the corridor the Thri-Kreen are standing in, and take 4 of them from full health to half health. This pisses them off, and since noone has come to stand over my prone form, the same five bugs proceed to full attack me again. My DM later described my body as missing an arm, an eye, and having two spearhead shaped holes in the face (I think he REALLY enjoys killing my characters, this is the fourth one [fifth death, this character died just last weekend also, and got raised] in less than two months of playing). Rather than returning to town to get me raised, the other party members just hoist my corpse off to my cohort/bodyguard (who the DM wouldn't have at the tunnel entrance either) and they continued into the cavern complex. In the seven hours of playing after my character died, the other players continually made crude comments about him (luckily the DM did have my cohort defend my honor), and then continually complain that they don't have anyone there to cast any arcane spells during combat. I have tried to explain to them many times that I simply CANNOT be on the front lines, but they refuse to listen. I would think that after what has happened they would understand, but they just don't seem to have learned any lesson. How can I make them understand that I am a glass cannon? Sure, I can deal out oodles of damage (we use spell points, and it takes 6 of my daily 56 spell points to cast a 10d6 fireball right now), but I have very bad armor and very low HP. Any suggestions?
Black Kitten 04-11-05, 05:10 AM	you have two options here. The first being that you further comply with your party and use a fighter|barbarian|paladin/sorcerer|wizard/rage mage|spellsword|eldrich knight who can do the melee stuff. OR you could simply shrug and take a melee guy yourself and tell one of your partymembers to become an arcane spellcaster. Once they see that their new character only has... tadaa! 35 hitpoints! Instead of the friggin' 79 the previous character had, perhaps they will learn that a little. A third option might be to use a Dwarf or a Gnome and don't use your highest stat for your charisma/intelligence, but for your constitution. I was pretty shocked when our party's illusionist came out to have more HP than my cleric.
Nom 04-11-05, 08:39 AM	I assume that you're doing sensible things like making good use of mage armour, blur and mirror image and wield a longspear when not actively casting? Consider using summon monster to create 'blockers' to protect you against direct attack. wind wall works nicely against ranged attack. I realise your spells known slots are limited, but that doesn't stop you making good use of wands. Beyond that, start playing more cowardly! Don't pick up the slack; if they won't protect you then don't enter combat. If the rest of your party can only think about who they are going to kill, it falls to you to think first and foremost of how not to get killed. Let them take the pain, and only engage when its safe to step in and clean up. It's hard to see how spending 7 hours skulking around and picking your fights is worse than spending 7 (!) hours sitting on the sidelines being abused.
Eliza_Stormwhisper 04-11-05, 09:02 AM	Next time they tell you to post guard duty like that, refuse. Say, "I'm hanging out by the people who are actually capable of taking punishment." On the other hand, it's also fun to play someone with a large amount of HP as a coward. My high elf archer has 55 hp at 6th level, but she's a coward (as most archers are), and lets the 5th-level paladin with 30 hp do all the work for her as she shoots things.
Phrennzy 04-11-05, 09:47 AM	Don't let them assign you hall-guarding duty. That's not your post. Your post is hanging back out of melee range so you can crank out damage. Don't let them boss you around. If you speak up with, "Hey, someone should guard that hallway." and they elect you, say "No." Wizards do not make good melee combatants (unless specifically built to be one). Hang in the back and blast away.
quaiven 04-11-05, 10:02 AM	My question is why is your DM running your cohort? And if your cohort is your bodyguard why wasn't he guarding your body? Off topic: what is gestalt?
Anthus_Longblade 04-11-05, 11:40 AM	why is your DM running your cohort? Because cohorts are NPCs.
D_Martin 04-11-05, 12:11 PM	Cohorts may be NPC's, but they are also part of a specific PC's arsenal! That PC should have some control over what the cohort does. As the DM, not having the cohort by his master was inexcusable. Especially when the PC is a spellcaster and the cohort is a melee type. I believe the DM, for whatever reason has it out for you. You have died 5 times and you are only 6-7th level :uh-huh: , something is fishy there. How many times have other PC's died? Did he give you a listen check to hear the bunch running down the hallway. Running softly is not possible. Why are there 4 PC's watching the door and only 1 watching the rear. That is bad strategic planning. That Monk/Ranger should have been watching the rear anyway! To add icing to the cake, the other PC's dump you with your cohort and continue without you. You may be in the wrong party too. Gestalt is an unearthed arcana playing variant where you take 2 classes and combine the best of both into 1 PC. For example a Ftr1/Wiz1 is a 1st level PC. You get the d10 hp's, all 1st level spells, the feats, the good will and fort. save and the skill points of the Wizard. At next level(Ftr2/Wiz2), repeat all of the above.
quaiven 04-11-05, 12:17 PM	Because cohorts are NPCs. Does your DM also run the druid's animal companion, or the wizard's familiar, because they are also NPCs'.
dragonwolf keny 04-11-05, 12:57 PM	my sugestion is find another gaming group. there out to kill you or they sound of noobs to me. wizards are artilary not infrontry. i had the same problem. so i just took my character and left the party.
aleph_woodenglenn 04-11-05, 02:06 PM	um...I really thought this was DnD 101 stuff. Regular spell caster (wizards, sorcs esp.) do not guard anything by themselves, Spell casters do not stand watch by themselves, spell casters are neither in the beginning or end of the marching order, spell casters open no doors (except with a spell), nor do they search for treasure (except with a spell). Spell casters have the duty of casting spells and avoiding melee. This is what they do. I am not saying that they never should fight melee, just avoid it AT ALL COST. This should be common knowledge, and I am pretty sure it is even somewhere in the PHB. While some builds can work great in this role, the best builds to do it are fighter, barb, ranger, druid, rogue...NOT a SORC. Have these guys been playing long? they really should know...tanks do the guarding. It would be wiser for you to keep an eye on the direction you alredy cleared out, and wisest for you to be safely buffered between the lot of them. I love spell casters. I just had the chance to roll one up and play one, but all my characters prior have been combat classes, and my job was basically toget between bad guys and the magic users...because that, by gum, is what combat classes do.
Derren S. 04-11-05, 02:35 PM	The next time simply dominate the one who tells you to stand guard to do it for you.
Vanigo 04-11-05, 04:24 PM	Your party members are pretty much idiots, but you're also playing at way under potential. If you just multiclassed from noble to rogue or something after three or four levels, your survivability would considerably increase - evasion and uncanny dodge are very nice, not to mention sneak attacking with ranged touch spells. Same goes for loading up on defensive buffs - it's hard to hack down a mirror imaged spellcaster in a single round, and that's from just one second level spell! The simplest way to get around this problem would be to simply play a stronger character. Gestalt is great for gishes. Me, I'd get a killer build together and make a point of showing them up at every turn. Of course, your party members would still be idiots. That's unlikely to go away any time soon, although playing arcane spellcasters themselves would do them some good.
Shocker250 04-11-05, 06:26 PM	Umm.. wow. If ur party members havnt realized by themselves that ur deaths are their faults they are major idiots. Honestly, if u get resurrected, just go in and start PvP. Spend one day, where u dont use ANY spells... make sure u guys sleep under the stars too. Take the first watch. Cast any buffs u feel u will need. And then go massacring. U can start by darkness. Then cast fireball on them. If they survive, they will be waking up in pure darkness. Blast into the darkness until ur sure u have overkiled them. And then blame their deaths on the fact that no one was around to counterspell ur spells. VENGENCE!!!!!!!!! must be served
LCD2YOU 04-12-05, 07:43 AM	Umm.. wow. If ur party members havnt realized by themselves that ur deaths are their faults they are major idiots. Honestly, if u get resurrected, just go in and start PvP. Spend one day, where u dont use ANY spells... make sure u guys sleep under the stars too. Take the first watch. Cast any buffs u feel u will need. And then go massacring. U can start by darkness. Then cast fireball on them. If they survive, they will be waking up in pure darkness. Blast into the darkness until ur sure u have overkiled them. And then blame their deaths on the fact that no one was around to counterspell ur spells. VENGENCE!!!!!!!!! must be served Ah yup. Nothing like reason and making good decisions.
Shocker250 04-12-05, 06:13 PM	Ah yup. Nothing like reason and making good decisions. what? Player killing stupid players is a GOOD thing. As far as I am concerned, its the IDIOTS that should be punished. They think the caster is another mellee class... plus they think that he is weak. So, best way to show them the truth, is to blow them all up. Then they will see the casters full might. Plus, they deserve it. Cmon, these people obviously 1. Don't know **** about magic in the DnD world. 2. The DM sounds like a basterd 3. They are not only obliviouse they also have no common sense when it comes down to pure strategy. (1 man in front, three on the door... now really... whos stupid enough to think of that plan?) I say the best way to go is to find a new group of people to play with. People that 1. Understand what a caster is. 2. A DM that is fair and isnt happy when u die. 3. Players that know at least basic strategy. (As in, mellee in front, weak people in the back) And if ur gonna get a new group, its always good to leave the old with a bang.
philopharynx 04-12-05, 11:01 PM	You didn't have a melee weapon while guarding the tunnel? Even wizards are proficient in staves and daggers, and if your noble class is anything historically accurate you should have had sword training. It would at least have given you a slightly better chance. As well, you should fit your characters to the game world. Taking noble in a gestalt game is only useful in a game with lots of social opportunities. If there were, they'd have likely found you a little more valuable. If this game didn't have a lot of social situations, taking noble isn't very useful. I'd suggest rogue or monk.
Nyat 04-12-05, 11:55 PM	Have your friends read this post, they should get the idea. If they still think mages should stand in the front then they are hopeless.
Anthus_Longblade 04-15-05, 04:20 PM	Cohorts may be NPC's, but they are also part of a specific PC's arsenal! That PC should have some control over what the cohort does. As the DM, not having the cohort by his master was inexcusable. The degree of the control PCs have over their cohorts is giving them commands. Under normal circumstances, the cohort looks up to the PC as a great leader, and will obey those commands. If for some reason a cohort would refuse to carry out a command, the PC cannot make the decision for him/her. Unless the PC commanded the cohort to follow them, it was perfectly excuseable to have him/her wait outside. Does your DM also run the druid's animal companion, or the wizard's familiar, because they are also NPCs'. As a DM, no I don't. The players doing that takes a lot of work off of me, and they usually have their pets do the same thing as I would have anyway. However, there are situations where a familiar or companion will not consent to do as they are asked, and in this case I, the DM, take over. This DM has decided to run the NPCs under the command of the players, which is just fine. My point is that the DM has the final say on what an NPC does, not the players.
bomaz 04-15-05, 04:42 PM	I like the idea of blasting them. also you can become a warlock. (complete arcane) sitt in the ceiling blasting enemies, become invisible and dimension door (short range) all at will. or perhaps the warmage is beter or the daggerspell mage or any one of the earlier mentioned combos. or memorise a few invisibility spells and if you get in trouble just cast and stand back and enjoy the show. make your character REALLY want to stay alive. no going up front or risking damage.
solbergb 04-15-05, 05:26 PM	Few comments. Some of the criticism are unjustified. Multiclassing a wizard defensively is weaker than just staying wizard and getting better spells. A rogue2/wiz7 is much, much weaker than a wizard9, although he can sometimes be decent in the trapfinding and stealth roles, using magic to make up skill deficiencies. Minute per level defensive buffs will not be running when you are ambushed. Mage armor is a reasonable precatuion, blur et-all aren't unless you know you're about to enter a fight. For the situation you found yourself in, invisibility might have helped more than that fireball. Might have let you stand up and go find a place to serve as a platform for future spellcasting. A dagger in a wizard hand isn't going to stop 9 melee monsters from romping over him and eating the party (And the wizard). That hand is often needed for spellcasting. If you want to use a wand, metamagic rod, scroll etc and not have to use a move action to drag it out, that item needs to be in your hand. Your other hand needs to be free to cast somatic component spells. Unarmed arcanists are quite common. About the only good a dagger is going to do is if you roll a 20, your AOO might stop the first attempt of someone to grapple with you. That said...your cohort can be run by the DM but is under your orders. You should have ordered it to watch the corridor. Then you would have had a place to stand...behind the cohort. Your teammates are idiots. They don't understand that they're on a team. Luckily you are 2 characters on the team...have teamwork with the cohort at least and then you might be able to help the team.
Mirikon 04-15-05, 07:31 PM	I am currently in a relatively low level (6-7ish) gestalt game, and I have been running into a recurring problem. I am the party's only arcane caster (custom setting Sorceror//Noble), but the party doesn't seem to understand that I can't take melee damage. We are in a cavern complex, where we know there are many Thri-Kreen (funnily enough we have one in the party also). One of the party members starts trying to hack down a door with his Adamantine weapon, and rather than watching the one direction in which we haven't explored, the other party members all take up positions in corners and face the way we came from. I inform them that someone should take up a position at the tunnel leading further into the complex, and they tell me to do it. I attempt to impress on them that the Fighter//Rogue, Barbarian//(non-casting)Bard, or Paladin+Kensai//Cleric would be better suited to such a thing and they ignore me. After a few chops with his weapon the final party member (Monk//[non-casting]Ranger) gets shot (through the hole he just made in the door), and 9 Thri-Kreen come running down the hall towards us. Being unarmed, I don't get an attack of opportunity, and the Thri-kreen swarm the party. My fellow players make a few comments about me being a useless watchdog, and we proceed to fight. I get full attacked by two unarmed Thri-Kreen (4 claws + 2 bites with poison), a Thri-Kreen with two longspears, and two Thri-Kreen hurling 4 javelins each. Needless to say, I drop to the ground almost dead. Luckily for me, the healer was standing next to me and heals me enough to make me conscious, but I have nowhere to crawl to and know I cannot take an attack of opportunity. Thus, I defensively cast a fireball down the corridor the Thri-Kreen are standing in, and take 4 of them from full health to half health. This pisses them off, and since noone has come to stand over my prone form, the same five bugs proceed to full attack me again. My DM later described my body as missing an arm, an eye, and having two spearhead shaped holes in the face (I think he REALLY enjoys killing my characters, this is the fourth one [fifth death, this character died just last weekend also, and got raised] in less than two months of playing). Rather than returning to town to get me raised, the other party members just hoist my corpse off to my cohort/bodyguard (who the DM wouldn't have at the tunnel entrance either) and they continued into the cavern complex. In the seven hours of playing after my character died, the other players continually made crude comments about him (luckily the DM did have my cohort defend my honor), and then continually complain that they don't have anyone there to cast any arcane spells during combat. I have tried to explain to them many times that I simply CANNOT be on the front lines, but they refuse to listen. I would think that after what has happened they would understand, but they just don't seem to have learned any lesson. How can I make them understand that I am a glass cannon? Sure, I can deal out oodles of damage (we use spell points, and it takes 6 of my daily 56 spell points to cast a 10d6 fireball right now), but I have very bad armor and very low HP. Any suggestions? My suggestion? For your next character do a Warlock/Sorcerer since you're in a gestalt game. Make sure you have Spiderwalk invocation and either the Walk Unseen invocation, a ring of invisibility, or the invisiblity spell. When they want you to guard a passage, go invisible and climb on the ceiling. Alternatively, get the DM to make them play arcane casters for once.
Uberman 04-16-05, 07:41 AM	Or just tell them to stop being dicks.. if they were like that, and THEN spent the next 7 HOURS gaming without you and insulting you... Hell If I were you, I'ld be out looking for a new gaming group right around now, that's not how friends treat each other.
crazysamaritan 04-16-05, 01:16 PM	My suggestion? For your next character do a Warlock/Sorcerer since you're in a gestalt game. Make sure you have Spiderwalk invocation and either the Walk Unseen invocation, a ring of invisibility, or the invisiblity spell. When they want you to guard a passage, go invisible and climb on the ceiling. Alternatively, get the DM to make them play arcane casters for once. Agreed, In fact, I have a few more specific suggestions.... :devil: Let's assume you start out as lvl6. Warlock 6 gains you +4 BAB Eldrich Blast 3d6 Decieve Item (take 10 on UMD) DR 1/cold iron Detect Magic at will. Invocations: Charm (lesser), Beguiling Influence (bonus to diplo&bluff), Entropic Warding (20% cover against ranged weapons), Spider Walk d6 hit dice Sorcerer 5/Mindbender1 gives you Telepathy Spells as 6th level sorcerer a familiar (if you want it, but not adviseable here) And your saves end up as 3/1/6 About 10th level, turn on them... :devil: Dominate and push the weak mind combine evilly...
Jelstan 04-16-05, 01:52 PM	my sugestion is find another gaming group. there out to kill you or they sound of noobs to me. wizards are artilary not infrontry. i had the same problem. so i just took my character and left the party. I agree. these guys sound like a bunch of 'enfants chiens', as a hearty Quebecer would say. Ditch them and find another group.
ToxicWiz 04-16-05, 02:39 PM	I have some suggestions: 1) coup de grace while they sleep 2) a misplaced fireball 3) run away next combat, leave them high and dry 4) i think it was mentioned earlier, but dominate or something similar them but then again there is option 5 if your not willing to forgive; 5) find a new group my two cents, but my party would NEVER get away with that. I am unforgiving with the lightning bolt, plus i would give my DM some hell.