Post/Author/DateTime	Post
weasel05 07-02-07, 11:41 PM	Our campaign goes insanely slow in our group we have 9 PC +1 cohort bard + 1 familiar + 1 Companion Animal +1 riding dog. luckily we just recently lost 3 PC and gained our first cleric (surprisingly we survived to tenth level without one although in the past their has been 3 resurrections) But even with this number reduced there is far too many to be useful in combat all at once and a few rounds of combat can some times take all night. Surprisingly it is the two spell casters who know exactly what their doing on their turns, whiles all the other with simpler characters just cant think more that half a round ahead. This wasted time is not helped by players who have been playing for a year (as long as I have) with the same character (a rogue) and still don’t know how the basic mechanics of they work (we still have to waste time explaining how sneak attack is used). We can do we have tried splitting the party up temporarily (this involved four deaths though it seams we had become to reliant on numbers, going up against entire prisons full of guards is our idea of intelligence), understandably our DM is getting frustrated with some people lack of knowledge and time wasting. We realyyyy need help
windscar18 07-02-07, 11:52 PM	1) Roll attack rolls and damage at the same time. 2) Encourage discussions of tactics while other player's are taking their turns. 3) Encourage non-follower variants. 4) Your DM needs to say something along the lines of "Okay, guys, I simply can not handle all of these actions." And then, he needs to have the players be more "hands off" with their companions. Giving general directions are actually fairly reasonable, if a bit frustrating for the player.
Nall_The_Azure_Guardian 07-03-07, 12:00 AM	honestly, split into smaller groups Theoretically it works like class, the more kids there are in the room the less individual attention anyone gets and the less people will learn 9 just sounds like way too many people My group has had anywhere from 7 to 2 players over the years as people tended to come and go, but the magic number has always been four. It sounds like you're group if fairly new as a whole, forgive me if I'm misinterpreting your post, I would recommend limiting the game to simpler mechanics with a promise to keep things easier. I played a fighter in my first three games, for example. Does the cohort come from the leadership feat or is it an npc? Leadership is a messy mechanic as is, and it should really be reserved for people who have a strong grasp of the rules and are well able to handle multiple characters. It should also be a "plot" feat. I mean honestly does anyone want 100 level 1 people filling up all the squares while their trying to fight? If you want to keep things as is, i would recommend two things. I tend to help new players make quick reference sheets, containing all the information for different settings of the game in smaller sections, like make a sheet for just combat and write on it how long your spells last and such things. Make sure they fill it out so that they know exactly where everything is and aren't getting confused by their big sheet with all the crazy math on it. The other thing you can do is organize your game like crazy Calculators also help speed a great deal, a little $2 solar calculator can keep track of each players hp in the same way d20s can count the rounds remaining on a buff spell. These also come in very handy once its time to sell the gear. Miniatures (Don't need dnd minis pieces of paper are good too) can help speed up tactical decisions as can limiting characters to "in character" speak while in battle, aka you can shout battle commands but no coaching or explaining why you think your advice is valid. If you want to get really crazy you can write down the name of everyone in the fight on a piece of paper and organize them by init. If you organize the way that you set up your game and encourage your players to plan their move while everyone else is going, combat should become a series of automatic responses as your group improves I hope this helps ~Nall
weasel05 07-03-07, 12:01 AM	Most of us do roll attack and damage at the same time but for some people it is too much to handle. I don’t think that the DM has a problem with so many characters flying around the problem seams to lie in the players, such as when they want to do some thing they cant be bothered to look it up until their turn when they then expect Everone else to tell them how it is done every time they try to do it or they don’t plan ahead and get decide when it gets to their turn what they are going to do or wait to be instructed by someone else.
Nall_The_Azure_Guardian 07-03-07, 12:08 AM	Yeah definiantly have them write things in advance a great example would be my palidan 's sheet Nall “The Azure Guardian” Male Human Paladin lvl 8 Str: 16 (+3) HP : 87 Con: 16(+3) AC: 23 = 10 +10(armor) +2(shield)+1(dex) Dex: 12 (+1) Touch = 11 Flatfooted = 22 Int: 8(-1) Speed: 20 Init: +1 Wis: 14(+2) Fort : +13 Reflex: +7 Will: +8 Cha: 19(+4) BAB: +8/+3 Armor Check = -4 Attacks : +1 Holy Longsword (S) Javelin (range 30ft) (P) +13/+8 +11/+6 (6+3(str)) D8+4+d6holy Crit 19-20: 2x D6+3 Crit 20: 2x MW Warhammer (B) +12/+7 d8+3 Crit x3 Smite evil 2/day Add cha to attack (+4) Add lvl to dmg (8) SA: Aura of good Detect Evil Smite evil 2/day Divine Grace Lay on hands (32) Aura of Courage Divine Health Turn undead Disease and fear immune all in party get +4 to saves vs. fear Turning 7 times a day 2d6+5(lvl-3)+4(cha) Destroy: 2HD Bonded Mount - Lapis of the Azure Sky Remove Disease 1/week GP 2432.19 Skills: Concentrate: 7 +10 Diplomacy: 6 +10 Handle Animal: 5 +9 Knowledge Religion: 4 +6 Ride: 0 (+2 syn) -1 Languages: Common, Celestial Caster Level 4 Spells prepared Pro Evil 4 min Bless Weapon 4 min Bears Strength 4 min Wand CLW 34/50 used I simply play off my laptop and adjust everything as I level up I've been playing dnd for god... 5 years I don't need to do this, but it helps
weasel05 07-03-07, 12:23 AM	Thanks Nall Unfortunately our group isn’t all new people our DM (who is a great DM) has upwards of 15 years experience as do two of the other players, there are a couple of players with about 5 years experience 3 with 1 year or less experience (including myself) the problem is that a few of the players have IQ’s south of 100 or/ and they just don’t try. As for the quick sheets the DM has already done that and out characters sheets (also tailor made by our DM) are blown out to about five pages (although this includes personality history and picture) but that is a brilliant idea and I might try to make a few more especially for the two other new players so the rules are blaringly obvious to them (although I don’t know why they cant just read the Players hand book or any of the other books in our DM’s substantial DnD collection). I also might pick up some calculators as well ; ) Thanks Again
Gleepwurp 07-03-07, 01:11 AM	I have a player who is always talking, or goofing off when it is not his turn in initiative... and inevitably when it comes to his INITIATIVE turn, he isn't paying attention and has to be reminded of what's going on... and when everyone says, "Hey, it's your turn! What are you going to do," he isn't ready and has to look something up or starts trying to decide what spell to cast or whatever... I've sometimes considered giving him a little egg timer and if he can't declare his action before the sand runs out, his PC does nothing that round... but I also worry about making it look like I'm picking on him so I haven't taken this extreme step yet. But I've been in the situation where there are 2-3 people in the group who are all like this -- and then one simple combat can take 2x as long. Sounds to me like the DM has to bring the hammer down and tell players, "if you are not ready when your turn comes up, you lose your turn." I've been in games where DMs did this when things had gotten out of hand and people sped things up. When I DM I have 1 player handle the initiative... and for PCs with multiple attacks, we usually roll multiple dice... and roll our damage and our attack at the same time. That helps a little.
weasel05 07-03-07, 01:28 AM	Yea our DM is simular if he has to yell out a characters name 3 times or if a person takes too long to decide he just declares that they have delayed, this is good but I think the onus is on the players in our group to get better and not just expect the DM to do everything for us
mtbOgre 07-03-07, 04:22 AM	Sounds to me like the DM has to bring the hammer down and tell players, "if you are not ready when your turn comes up, you lose your turn." I've been in games where DMs did this when things had gotten out of hand and people sped things up. When I DM I have 1 player handle the initiative... and for PCs with multiple attacks, we usually roll multiple dice... and roll our damage and our attack at the same time. That helps a little. We have about 5-6 people on most nights and we keep things moving by having a dedicated initiative nazi. Init Nazi keeps track of whose turn it is and keeps things hopping. If someone is being slow the init nazi will just go to the next player and when the slow person figures out what he wants to do he can catch up. Also, if someones turn is taking a second to resolve their attack or cast a spell the init nazi tells the next player they are in the hotseat and asks them to figure out what they need to do. It seems like people should be able to keep track of this stuff on their own but in my experience there are some people who just don't seem to really get it. Init Nazi keeps the players moving so the DM can focus on... DMing. Unfortunately when I'm DMing no one takes up the slack and the player's side of combat goes slower :(
Leilond 07-03-07, 08:00 AM	My rules 1) I always "prepare" the next player when someone is actin. Something like: "Bob, it's your turn, John you'll be the next", so they keep ready 2) Six second to start your first action (move or standard). If you do not do it within this time you'll lose it. Another six second to start your second action or your turn will end. 3) No movement can be redone. If you move your miniature wrong, provoking and AoO, you cannot go back. 4) Caster that intend to cast a spell must have the player's handbook opened to the right page at the beginning of their turn (we have 3 book at the table) or cannot cast. Some "exception" are admitted when the events change the situation that require a rethink of the spell. 5) Each character have his "quick combat chart" (Total attack bonus, saves, AC, touch AC, flat-footed AC, stats bonus, damage and so on). 6) On the table there is a "temporary bonus chart". Where I write down the temporary bonus, general and single character bonuses (bless, prayer, rage, bull strenght, and so on) 7) No OT talking. All the players must be concentrated on the table during opponent and fiends turns. No exception admitted, only "book consultation" is permitted A nice encounter, with some caster and/or special power enemy, can still take one hour, but it has to be an exciting and addictive hour, not a "waiting my turn hour".
Seldriss 07-03-07, 08:15 AM	Something i do is the declaration of actions (it comes from Star Wars/d6) : The players must declare their actions before the initiative roll. Of course, according to their moment when they act, some things might have changed in the situation, but they can always use "reaction actions" (move, dodge, parry, total defense, etc). I also suggest to roll the dice together : attack dice (for multiple attacks), hit location die (yes we use that) and damage die. It saves time. Casters (and psionics) must have their spellsheets updated, with all their spells detailled (casting time, range, area of effect, duration, description of effects, saves/SR, components, book/page). This way, no wasted time flipping books. A simple trick is to place your players around the table according to their initiative modifier : The faster on your left, the slowest on your right. This way, you go around the table one after the other.
mtbOgre 07-03-07, 11:45 AM	My rules 1) I always "prepare" the next player when someone is actin. Something like: "Bob, it's your turn, John you'll be the next", so they keep ready 2) Six second to start your first action (move or standard). If you do not do it within this time you'll lose it. Another six second to start your second action or your turn will end. 3) No movement can be redone. If you move your miniature wrong, provoking and AoO, you cannot go back. 4) Caster that intend to cast a spell must have the player's handbook opened to the right page at the beginning of their turn (we have 3 book at the table) or cannot cast. Some "exception" are admitted when the events change the situation that require a rethink of the spell. 5) Each character have his "quick combat chart" (Total attack bonus, saves, AC, touch AC, flat-footed AC, stats bonus, damage and so on). 6) On the table there is a "temporary bonus chart". Where I write down the temporary bonus, general and single character bonuses (bless, prayer, rage, bull strenght, and so on) 7) No OT talking. All the players must be concentrated on the table during opponent and fiends turns. No exception admitted, only "book consultation" is permitted A nice encounter, with some caster and/or special power enemy, can still take one hour, but it has to be an exciting and addictive hour, not a "waiting my turn hour". Nice. I wish our tables ran that clean. I'm going to have to adopt a couple of these ideas, I like the temporary bonus table, right now not a huge issue as the characters are fairly low level but I see it becoming an issue as the low level buffs start to come in to play a bit more. I don't think I'm going to adopt rules 2 or 3 yet. Most of the players in my group are fairly new so unless they are being particularly stupid I give them some time and help them with AoO and movement. Although... Rather than having the PHB out for spellcasting I make print outs from the SRD for each spellcaster. Right now we use mostly core stuff so it works well, spellcasters have perhaps 1-2 pages of spells printed out. When they get higher level it will probably get a little more interesting.
zelf_gale 07-03-07, 02:40 PM	I always use the "force the character to delay" option instead of the "force the character to lose his turn" option when a player can't decide. It's more player friendly and the player has an incentive to stay engaged longer, instead of zoning out until their next turn. Have characters and their NPC buddies act on the same initiative. Let spellcasters make copies of the descriptions of their favorite spells. Make character sheets for NPC buddies. Limit characters to 4 weapons. Allow two players to take their turn at once if their actions don't overlap.
danielinthewolvesden 07-03-07, 03:24 PM	Our campaign goes insanely slow in our group we have 9 PC +1 cohort bard + 1 familiar + 1 Companion Animal +1 riding dog. l We can do we have tried splitting the party up temporarily ...p Rule One: Everyone gets one and only one character to run. No Cohorts, no pets. The guy who bought the dog gets his cash back, the guy with Leadership gets another feat. I would also see if the pC with the animal companion will take something else instead of a Companion. And, no more than one summoning spell active at any time. I assume the familiar does not actually DO anything during combat. Splitting the party means twice the work for the DM half the fun for the players and takes twice as long. Bad idea. One of the PLAYERs runs intitiative: the best way is by magnetic cards on metalic board, the next best way is by a whiteboard. This way not only can the DM concentrate better, but everyone can see who is going next. You can even go so far as to not allow "delay" and only allow 3 minutes to do your round. Casters must be ready with their spell, book must be open or the spell on a 3x5 card.
trapspringer 07-03-07, 07:55 PM	Agree, this is a situation where the players need to step up. Start by streamlining your party to get it as small as possible without cutting players. Next, get involved in the running of combat. I would suggest splitting up into two groups with one player in each group operating as team leader. It's his job to funnel actions from players to the DM in combat, track initiative within his group, etc (don't literally split up unless you split up into two gaming groups with two DMs; if you think trying to run one game for nine players at one time is tough on your DM, imagine trying to run two games at once for nine players...). I'd recommend pairing this with party initiative. This is a system where the player with the highest initiative rolls for the whole group, and they all act at once. Monsters should do this, too. If you couple this with the two group, team leader system, each group should roll initiative.
weasel05 07-04-07, 08:47 AM	no pets. The guy who bought the dog gets his cash back. I dont think that rule would go down too well. It is nice to know that we arnt the only group having problems with combat speed though :D
Radiant117 07-04-07, 02:34 PM	Leadership is primarily intended for small parties, hence the "contingent cohort" optional rule. Also, the negative impact on combat speed was one reason the Druids are allowed only one animal companion now. Our present party doesn't have cohorts or animal companions. However, due to the campaign specifics, we're always fighting *lots* of enemies. Here's what I'd advise to do to speed up the sequence: 1. Initiative sequence is written out on a separate sheet. Monster HP losses are also recorded on it. 2. Short stats for every player: attacks, AC, saves, buffs. We had a separate sheet for party buffs back when we had a bard. Now we don't and often keep forgetting haste bonuses. You can also get transparent files for the character sheets and mark buffs and debuffs on them with a wipe-off marker. 3. Combat mat with minis (chess pieces, poker chips, folded paper pieces with char portraits). The larger the minis, the larger the mat, which is one reason we use magnetic chess pieces. I'm still planning to make a nice laminated combat mat on a steel base. 4. Each caster should have one or more spell lists, like these (http://www.militaryfocus.com/dnd/index.htm). While compiling all spells from all sources is a job not undertaken lightly, it's surprisingly easy to make a personal spell list and update it when new spells are available. Spell cards are also of great help. 5. Turn time limit and delays. 6. No "takebacks". A cleric can get away with casting Invisibility Purge when everyone except the party rogue is already visible only so many times before it really gets on the party's nerves. On the other hand, most suboptimal decisions can easily be attributed to the overall chaos of combat. 7. When everyone has enough Concentration to automatically cast defensively, there's no need to even mention it. 8. Not-yet-killed characters cannot discuss tactics with currently active party member. (Dead characters are free to do so.) 9. Roll dice where they can be quickly gathered for another throw.
danielinthewolvesden 07-04-07, 04:24 PM	I dont think that rule would go down too well. Why? If everyone is limited to one and only one character, he has no complaints. Sure, the dog could still be used for movement if he liked, but not for combat, once separated the dog would always withdraw.
mtbOgre 07-05-07, 12:55 PM	Why? If everyone is limited to one and only one character, he has no complaints. Sure, the dog could still be used for movement if he liked, but not for combat, once separated the dog would always withdraw. Animal companions are a powerful class feature for Druids. Limiting them to non-combat is blow to the classes power (some might argue that's reasonable nerfage but that's a different discussion). I know I would be quite upset if someone arbitrarily nerfed by Anim C for the sake of speeding up combat since I make my attack rolls quicker than most people make their rounds with just their single character. Familiars aren't as much of an issue because they are insignificant in terms of power and most characters don't use them in melee (except perhaps for ranged touch attack delivery). Even so some arcane casters would be upset if you nerfed the familiars into uselessness.
psionichamster 07-05-07, 01:51 PM	some things that have helped me * initiative cards...roll init, possibly having a player record it while you prepare for the combat. place in order and move them from front to back *stat-flags. haste, bless, other all-team buffs get put on 3x5 cards and placed vertically so as to allow everyone to remember whats active. *healing, assistance, movement and similar can be declared and assumed to be "done" without waiting for the next player. (example, cleric casts Cure Serious Wounds on the Rogue...he rolls and tells the rogue what the healing is while the dm moves on to the next character w/o pause) *no arguing about rules during combat. i have the combat actions and condition summary up all the time via the SRD while DM'ing, so if someone gets nauseated/frightened/etc i tell them the condition and move on. its up to them to keep track *cohorts/companions/etc go on the same init as the PC...if you forget to do something w/ them, too bad, move along. *let the upcoming players know whose turn it is. john, you're up next, sue you're after him and lastly.... KNOW YOUR RULES...if the DM is fumbling around w/ spell descriptions, save DC's, and options to do in combat, you are the weak link, so work hard to know your monsters/npc's, so you can always just act without having to look up your options. -the hamster
danielinthewolvesden 07-05-07, 02:26 PM	Animal companions are a powerful class feature for Druids. Limiting them to non-combat is blow to the classes power (some might argue that's reasonable nerfage but that's a different discussion). I know I would be quite upset if someone arbitrarily nerfed by Anim C for the sake of speeding up combat since I make my attack rolls quicker than most people make their rounds with just their single character. If you read the OP, the Riding dog appears to be a purchased aquisition. In any case, in a game this big, the players have to make some sacrifices. That is how we ran the last big game we were in, and it worked. The Druid just got add'l class features to make up for loss of his Companion.
mtbOgre 07-05-07, 02:49 PM	If you read the OP, the Riding dog appears to be a purchased aquisition. In any case, in a game this big, the players have to make some sacrifices. That is how we ran the last big game we were in, and it worked. The Druid just got add'l class features to make up for loss of his Companion. Bah... I misread what you said. What you suggest is quite reasonable.
Psikerlord 07-06-07, 08:08 AM	We have 7-8 players each game session, so we had to get organised combat wise. One useful prop is our initiative board - thin sheet of cardboard with about 10 velcro tabs on it. Each player has a card with his name on it, and we have 2 or 3 "enemy" cards (enemy melee, enemy caster and monster). We all roll initiative and the cards are stuck on the board in order. the board sits on the table, everyone can see who's up next. The board is looked after by one player, who reminds everyone abot their turn coming up. I also recommend (i) rolling attack and damage at the same time, and (ii) casters must have their spell descriptions printed out for quick reference. We haven't tried the egg timer trick, but I think it would work great (and if you're too slow, get delayed till after the next PC goes)
Leilond 07-06-07, 11:13 AM	Nice. I wish our tables ran that clean. I'm going to have to adopt a couple of these ideas, I like the temporary bonus table, right now not a huge issue as the characters are fairly low level but I see it becoming an issue as the low level buffs start to come in to play a bit more. Ohhooo yessss. By the time the touch 9th level, there can be fights with 5 or more spells active at the same time... when the "strenght" come in play you have also to remember the x1.5 for two handed or single natural attack and x0.5 for second hand or secondary natural attack I don't think I'm going to adopt rules 2 or 3 yet. Most of the players in my group are fairly new so unless they are being particularly stupid I give them some time and help them with AoO and movement. Although... Well... all my players are very very experienced so I can limit them with 6 seconds (3-4 are usually enought) Rather than having the PHB out for spellcasting I make print outs from the SRD for each spellcaster. Right now we use mostly core stuff so it works well, spellcasters have perhaps 1-2 pages of spells printed out. When they get higher level it will probably get a little more interesting. The only important things is having the spell description available. There are so much spell that require a deeper read when some strange situation come out