Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Forgedwar 09-22-06, 06:44 AM	I have always loved bbeing evil, thats why I am a DM, but I never had a choice because my first interaction with D&D was being a DM. So I was looking through the players handbook and thought I would like to be a lawful evil cleric of Hextor, so you see the dilemma unless the whole party is evil wgich is unlikley, because they always want to be the guy who saves the village from utter destruction instead of finishing a main quest ( ounce the only evil party member looted a dead guy that had been helping them, so they al killled him). So any advice would be appreciated.
Eaglos 09-22-06, 07:22 AM	Evil has many forms and it is not always about slaying the inocent. You could be "uncaring" or egoist. You could put your needs first and then care for those of your party. Evil is all about coming up with good excuses to justify your actions. Basicaly you need good role play. Also, being evil does not mean that you lust for blood. Evil characters also act neutral for long periods but when the opening arises the follow their nature :) Also it depends on your party. If they are unable to proper rp and kill you because you have written "evil" on a piece of paper....
Darth Sephiroth 09-22-06, 07:27 AM	First off, make sure no one is playing a servant of Heironeous, and really make sure there isn't a Paladin in the party, both of those would probably end up causing problems within the party without serious work that probably wouldn't be worth it. Also you may want to make sure there is someone who can easily heal the party, otherwise you end up losing most of your effectiveness for most of what a Cleric is for (Buffing and Patching the group up and then backup fighter). For being evil you really should have a goal. I've been playing an evil Monk for a while who wants power and to eventually ascend to become a diety, without goals of one sort or another, your evilness ends up seeming to be simply evilness just to be evil. Pick something a goal or cause you want to follow, even if it is just to be an evil fanboy (For those who have seen Xiaolin Showdown, think Jack Spicer). Also at least early on I'd avoid the Vile feats if you can, or at least the ones that have a visible effect, it would draw the crusading do gooders like flies and probably leave you to roll out a new character. Save them for when they're a boost to someone who is already formidible in other ways. Also early on it is better to be sneaky about being evil, lie, cheat, kill, and steal when it can't be pinned on you or at least not harm you directly.
Callista 09-22-06, 08:57 AM	One word: Antihero. An antihero is someone who works for the good side, but is not Good himself... he's saving the world; but he's got his own reasons for doing it. Maybe he wants to be famous or powerful, or he wants to be influential, or he likes the Good people in charge and knows that a BBEG in business can be bad for him. You're thinking of playing LE; so you want a code of honor. Loyalty to party members can be part of it. Get a character with decent Charisma, so he'll understand that anything he does that the other characters wouldn't approve of, he has to do secretly to avoid "offending" them. You could also make kindness to women and children a part of his code of honor; or you could have him swear to kill as quickly and efficiently as possible, without causing pain. You could have him be rather self-righteous that there are certain acts he refuses to participate in; for example, rape and torture; and have him feel that these scruples make him a good person. Prejudice is a great character trait for an LE character. Have him believe that some group of beings (other than demons, obviously) is always evil and must be wiped out for the good of [his own race]. If the party is fighting that group of people--let's say it's orcs--the LE character's genocidal tendencies can be readily disguised as simple enthusiasm for the quest. Another phrase for the LE character: "Greater good". You are doing the most efficient thing for your cause (which may be a good one); but that thing itself may be evil. Your character rationalizes it by saying that the good that comes out of his evil action is more important than the evil act itself. This differs from a non-evil character who chooses "the lesser of two evils" in that your LE character chooses the Evil act because it is more convenient, efficient, or effective. For example, an Evil character might torture someone for information; a non-Evil character will wait a day for the party Wizard to prepare a charm spell. Make sure your character is intelligent enough to hide his tracks effectively, when he must perform an evil act; or else that he can tell the party some convincing lie. Above all, do not play an evil character in a party with a Paladin, Exalted character, or Good cleric. The two are simply not compatible, and you will run into trouble unless you and the player of that character work together to make sure that the characters do not come into conflict or, if they do, it is a conflict that will further the story. If you play an Evil character in a Good party, be prepared for the eventuality that you will be found out and killed or ejected from the party. If this happens, your DM can use your character--embittered by rejection and now on the side of Evil--as a villain. Or, with proper DM cooperation, you can even show your true colors during a fight with the BBEG, becoming a true villain instead of an antihero during the final battle. There's a thread on famous antiheroes in the Mature boards, if you're old enough to read it. It gives quite a few good examples.
Sulaco 09-22-06, 09:02 AM	I have always loved bbeing evil, thats why I am a DM, but I never had a choice because my first interaction with D&D was being a DM. So I was looking through the players handbook and thought I would like to be a lawful evil cleric of Hextor, so you see the dilemma unless the whole party is evil wgich is unlikley, because they always want to be the guy who saves the village from utter destruction instead of finishing a main quest ( ounce the only evil party member looted a dead guy that had been helping them, so they al killled him). So any advice would be appreciated. My advice: don't. You may want to play an evil PC but the game is not about you, it is about everyone at the table. Your desire to play and evil PC and thus potentially disrupt the entire game and ruin the enjoyment for eveyone but yourself is the antithesis of what D&D is all about: having fun with your friends.
ShadowDragon8685 09-22-06, 09:06 AM	For once in a blue moon, I have to agree with Sulaco. Playing Evil in a Good party is like playing a Vampire spawn in a party with a Turninglord of Pelor. It's like playing, well, evil in a party of Good! It's starting a fight.
Sulaco 09-22-06, 09:10 AM	For once in a blue moon, I have to agree with Sulaco. Hey, don't worry about it. You were bound to see the light eventually. ;)
Kresalak 09-22-06, 09:14 AM	Be an adventurer. Your job is to break into people's homes, stab them, and take their stuff. All you really have to do is not bother to justify it with "but they were evil!"
OravennasBrother 09-22-06, 09:23 AM	FPlaying Evil in a Good party is like playing a Vampire spawn in a party with a Turninglord of Pelor. Isn't there already a thread devoted to that topic?
ShadowDragon8685 09-22-06, 09:41 AM	Hey, don't worry about it. You were bound to see the light eventually. ;) Rest easy. I won't make a habit of it.
HauptSin 09-22-06, 09:47 AM	I'm currently playing an evil Rogue dedicated to Asmodeus tagging along with a party of do-gooders, including a Paladin. Just gotta hide your evilness until the time comes, then don't get angry if the party kills you. :p
Sulaco 09-22-06, 10:20 AM	Rest easy. I won't make a habit of it. :rofl: Touché! Well played, sir! :D
Comus 09-22-06, 10:31 AM	A question to the OP: Why do you want to play an evil character? It might help us help you if you told us what aspect of evil attracts you.
danielinthewolvesden 09-22-06, 10:52 AM	My advice: don't. You may want to play an evil PC but the game is not about you, it is about everyone at the table. Your desire to play and evil PC and thus potentially disrupt the entire game and ruin the enjoyment for eveyone but yourself is the antithesis of what D&D is all about: having fun with your friends. In general, he's right. However, there is a way. Discuss this in advance with all the Players and the DM and see if they all buy in. If they (as PLAYERS) buy into it, then fine. As to how you play it? Fanatically devoted to your party, and nasty to others.
RellenMarn 09-22-06, 11:15 AM	Maybe you can be evil without doing evil... If your paty is going to have a Paladin or Cleric think about making an arrangement with that player. You are there long lost son, brother, sister, the child of a former companion, etc. They are keeping you with them in an attempt to convert you. Could be fun for the whole party, but I would strongly advise you to discuss it with the players first. Hope it works out for you!
natural_selection 09-22-06, 01:58 PM	I once played a lawful evil dwarf. What made him evil? He was an egoist, a racist and gready for money. Did it stop him to work together with a good aligned party? No. As he was gready he signed on adventuring contracts only when he got money for it. A thing even good aligned parties do. As an egoist, he withdraw of a fight before the party got tpked. The party thanked him when he organised it to resurrect them. As a racist he was just fun to roleplay. And if it gets to interrogating orcs, an evil character is always the perfect choice.
Sulaco 09-22-06, 02:13 PM	I once played a lawful evil dwarf. What made him evil? He was an egoist, a racist and gready for money. That doesn't necessarily make him evil, it just makes him an ***hole.
IceFractal 09-22-06, 02:31 PM	Just play him as smart evil, rather than "Bwahaha, I will destroy you ALL!" evil. As such, he realizes that adventuring companions are good for guarding one's back, and shouldn't be offed for the heck of it. LE, in particular, is a bit easier than CE to work with. And come on, let's give the Law-Chaos axis a little respect here. If he said "I want to be a LG cleric in a non-lawful party", I don't think anyone would be telling him not to. Theoretically, a LG knight and a LE cleric could work together just as well as the LG knight and a CG rogue.
LivingShadow 09-22-06, 02:35 PM	The best class for being evil is the rouge because then you could try to hide it. Slight of hand is a must because you can hide that you are taking something from a dead body or treasure. If you were to be evil do not make it as obvious as a cleric (or at least don't show any sign of your religion) because if you don't you will attract every palidin within 100 miles and one more thing; remember, "you can't rule the world if someone is already ruling it."
aotrscommander 09-22-06, 02:38 PM	I also have to agree with Sulaco (and not least because his responce was almost exactly what I thought of saying when I saw the thread title; great minds and all!) You can play an evil character in a good party; I've seen it done very well. One chap in a Rolemaster game I played managed to get me cursed, was clearly favoured by the Forces of Evil because he never, ever took damage and though my character ould have liked nothing better than to pull his insides out with a tuning fork, he made himself indespensible to the party (he spoke all the languages). Chaotic Evil (especially Chaotic Stupid Evil) is a definate no-no, but you knew that already (heck, CE not good for an evil party unless you've got a very, very good RPer). Playing Jack Spicer Evil might be alright (as, despite being clearly evil - and very cool, Jack is an idiot (sadly)); playing Chase Young evil would be doable if the rest of the party agree and you are good enough to pull it off. Sabretooth evil (to mix my metaphors) would not be a good idea. But (and this is the most important but) the rest of the players have to be happy with dealing with this it AND you need to be understated about it. Otherwise, it can ruin the game or at least polarise the party. What you haven't said is exactly what it is you want to be able to be Evil for. To me, playing an evil character (in an evil party), gives me the fun of oppressing the weak, shooting Rebels and their Y-Wings, having a list of people to kill just because you they wound you up or something (and killing them at an appropriate point in time), laughing at the naivety of good (Evil always wins because Good is dumb), and getting all the best lines; as a group. It is not, in my opinion, an good excuse to be an asshat to the rest of the party (just everyone else). So what exactly do you want to do as evil (given as most of the above isn't going to be able to be done in a good-aligned party)? Obviously, exactly the same rules apply to a good character in an evil party.
Forgedwar 09-22-06, 03:19 PM	I wanted to be evil, because I have a honor code but I like to be evil, that is why I picked lawful. I dont have to go into peoples houses and murder them, but if I see a champion of another god I might fighht minm. I have always liked villains with honor, that is why i want to be evil.
HermitIX 09-22-06, 03:20 PM	I had a wizard once who was evil. He was under a curse (variant on weretiger) and his primary motivation was finding a cure. We were transporting a cleric of Palor to be sacrificed to some evil god. And she kept running away. To get her to stop, my guy told her that if he didn’t deliver her to the temple the clergy there would kill his wife and unborn child. He gave her a dart that she could conceal on her person, and said it has a sleep poison on it (she had been tranked by his darts before) and she could use it to escape after they delivered her to the temple. It was just a normal 1d2 dmg dart no poison, but she trusted him totally, she even resurrected him after he was killed by another party member. (a psychotic evil fighter) >to the point< My mage was evil, but he didn’t disrupt the other party members, and he was even able to interact with the good guys. My advice would be pick a goal that is evil. That is your prime motivation. But unless it is directly opposed to the party’s goals act the part of the good guy. You could pose as a cleric of Heronius, there holy symbols are similar you could have hextors symbol engraved on to Heronius’s make It a master work holy symbol, and say you need a CD 18 search check to notice the Hextor symbol.
aotrscommander 09-22-06, 03:32 PM	I wanted to be evil, because I have a honor code but I like to be evil, that is why I picked lawful. I dont have to go into peoples houses and murder them, but if I see a champion of another god I might fighht minm. I have always liked villains with honor, that is why i want to be evil. Then (provided the other players don't wig out/have a paladin/exalted guy etc) you shouldn't have much of a problem, once you decide why exactly your evil guy is hanging out with the bunch of goodie-two-shoes.
robertliguori 09-22-06, 04:12 PM	A: talk it over with the party and DM. This is practically a given; any character concept can be disruptive, given the campaign and and the party composition. If they approve, then you can go to town. B: Tips: The party is your party. Be fanatically, incredibly devoted to the party, and utterly uncaring about anyone else. Be the best friend of any traditionally-oppressed party members; cheerfully Inflict-Moderate-Wounds any peasant that gives your half-orcish or halfling party members guff, but if they call you off, back down. Emphasize that you are subordinate to the collective will of the party, and will abide by its decisions. Plot to be elected leader of the party. Prepare a lot of healing spells. This will both help keep you from being a CoDZilla, and will let you play up the fact that you're sacrificing personal power to keep the party running. Be effusive in your praise for the party. Grudgingly concede that yes, the bard did a good job of talking down the drunk. Cheer the fighter on when he crits someone in a tavern brawl. All in all, remember that the greatest resource that you have is the goodwill of your party, and that the best way to harnass this resource is to have the party want you around.
Sulaco 09-22-06, 04:31 PM	You know, I am going to take back my post. Several of the posts subsequent to mine gave some very valid ways and reasons to play an evil PC in a good party. While I think that the "don't do it" option is normally the best one, this is largely cos most people who express a desire to play an evil character tend to do it very badly and for the wrong reasons. However, if you've got a mature group and the RP chops to pull it off then take some of that very good advice and go for it.
The man they call Boxhead 09-22-06, 04:33 PM	I wanted to be evil, because I have a honor code but I like to be evil, that is why I picked lawful. I dont have to go into peoples houses and murder them, but if I see a champion of another god I might fighht minm. I have always liked villains with honor, that is why i want to be evil. With that reasoning, talk to the other players and the DM. If you decide to play the Cleric of Hextor and the campaign revolves around working for a Cleric of Heironeous, nothing is going to work out. I will probably just have to jump on the Bandwagon in this situation and add a resounding don't. And if you do decide to play an evil character, do NOT steal from the party, do NOT attack other PCs.
Comus 09-22-06, 05:00 PM	With that reasoning, talk to the other players and the DM. If you decide to play the Cleric of Hextor and the campaign revolves around working for a Cleric of Heironeous, nothing is going to work out. I will probably just have to jump on the Bandwagon in this situation and add a resounding don't. And if you do decide to play an evil character, do NOT steal from the party, do NOT attack other PCs. Very true. Additionally, note that this applies to good and neutral characters too. If you're a rogue that steals from the party, expect a greatsword to the face.
Sulaco 09-22-06, 05:11 PM	And if you do decide to play an evil character, do NOT steal from the party, do NOT attack other PCs. I concur. No matter what the PCs involved the primary goal is to have fun together as a group. Sure your PC may logically be the kind that would steal from these "chumps," bu this is one case where metagaming for the sake of player-unity and everyone at the table having a good time should take precedence.
danielinthewolvesden 09-22-06, 05:13 PM	The best class for being evil is the rouge because then you could try to hide it. Slight of hand is a must because you can hide that you are taking something from a dead body or treasure. No, that's the worst thing you can do. It's a good way of getting a bad rep as a bad player to have in a game, and a good way to lose friends or get booted. If you are going to be Evil, then you must let your fellow PLAYERS know, and hopefully get buy-in. One of the reason "all-evil" games can be a lot of fun, as an occ break to do something different.
PiedmonSama 09-22-06, 05:22 PM	If you are a good enough roleplayer, there is nothing wrong with playing an evil-aligned character in a mostly good-aligned cast. That's assuming that not only are you reasonable, but so are your fellow players. Don't hide anything from them OOC, just say you're going to be playing an evil-aligned character, but assure them he'll still pull his weight in the group, and if they still want to attack your character on-sight just because he's evil, that should cost them their good alignment right there. As someone very astutely remarked, there is nothing wrong--or even unusual--about an evil-aligned person working for a greater good. Fighting evil is dirty work, and it often takes evil to fully combat evil. Fiction is rife with anti-heroes who, when their actions are objectively viewed, would probably be considered "evil" by D&D's alignment system. Examples: Mugen, from Samurai Champloo. He has a code of behavior, sure, and he honors his "debt" to Fuu, but the guy basically wanders the countryside getting into lethal duels because he thinks it's fun. He never repents for his murderous actions as a pirate and criminal, and he doesn't think twice about cutting down law agents who get in his way. The Bride, from Kill-Bill. Yes, she was pursuing vengeance for her child, but she never once expresses any kind of regret about her time as an assassin, and she had no qualms about killing anyone she was assigned during her time in the D.I.V.As. The Punisher, from Marvel Comics, is a great example. Here's a guy who holds himself above the law, and has literally killed thousands of criminals, some of them bigtime bosses, most just regular henchmen, without trial or any kind of authorization except from his own personal vendetta. He's said it himself--he doesn't kill criminals to make the world safer. He does it because he hates them. There are plenty more examples than this, but it gives you an idea. There's plenty of room for anti-heroes and dark heroes or whatever else you want to call them, and it's a mythological idea going back to Hercules getting drunk and accidentally killing people, to Gilgamesh terrorizing the city of Ur. So don't let anyone put you off it if that's the way you want to go!
Echo_that_Pains 09-22-06, 05:30 PM	If you decide to play the Cleric of Hextor and the campaign revolves around working for a Cleric of Heironeous, nothing is going to work out. On the other hand, your reason for being in the party could be that your superiors knew of the goals of Heironeous and your job is to upset the plans. You could do this very easily without alerting the party (as long as you were sneeky about it). To make it better, since you would be the only person aware of what was causing these plan disruptions you could aquire sway in the party by leading them to "clues" that you left behind to throw them on a different track than you. You would be playing not only your alignment but your diety relation very well in this case.
epifreak 09-22-06, 05:36 PM	And if you do decide to play an evil character, do NOT steal from the party, do NOT attack other PCs. Yes, 99.99999999999999999999999999999999% of the time. I have actually once stolen from "the party" in a somewhat good way. I was playing a rogue (made evil by the DM after a series of failed will saves). The party monk was being shaken down by one of the DM's plethora of ridiculously high level NPCs. The NPC demanded his money, and he claimed he didn't have any. Knowing that this guy couldn't lie his way out of any situation at all (8 Cha and 0 ranks at 13th level), I simply made what he had said true. I lifted all of the gold on him (he had stashed most of it and only had like 3 gold on him, you know, toilet paper money. The NPC saw through his lie, turned him upside down, and shook. When no gold fell out, he disgustedly threw the monk aside and went back to drinking. I then neglected to return the cash, as A: it was in character for the rogue, B: it was such a small amount as to be a "fee for rendering a lack of an ass-whoopin'" and C: the player didn't mind.
The Livewire 09-22-06, 05:43 PM	One of the 'best' ways of being evil in a party is thinking long term. My last LE character, Shadrach, had a simple goal, become a deity (It's Greyhawk, people do it all the time). To this end, he was the moral compass of the party. When we fought a thieves guild (mad god's key) He paid for the healing of the guild members. He set up an orphanage, for the Children of course. and had a shrine of Zuoken dedicated in his orphanage He was very loyal to the party, well except for the chaotics who were stealing from the party. He also set in motion several plots to 'educate' the above mentioned characters. The closest 'friend' he had was the NG Cleric of St Cuthbert (DM doesn't do the LN St C) whom he respected and was loyal do, he just felt she should stop worshiping others for power. I stopped playing him because, unfortunately, the two players of the CN characters were becoming more and more paranoid, not because he had done anything to them (that they knew of) but because his sheet said LE. The DM is still letting me keep up some of his plots on the side though. :evillaugh Shad wasn't disruptive because his plots were so long term, that the party's short term plans didn't collide. When his long term plans would have collided with the party, he really didn't want to oppose the cleric, again because of the respect he had for her. Lawful? Very Evil? In ways he never got to show. The party did stop his one vengance killing, unfortunately. More than his alignment? yes. That said, if you play an evil character and do the moustache twirling, don't be surprised when your party kills you, and don't hold it against the rest of the party. P.S. Set up a 'murder fund.' Set aside money in a trust to put bounties on the heads of whoever/whatever kills you. Your DM will thank you :-)
Kalman14 09-22-06, 05:50 PM	I once burned a family of rabbits to death and said that I was doing it for food.
LivingShadow 09-22-06, 05:59 PM	[QUOTE]No, that's the worst thing you can do. It's a good way of getting a bad rep as a bad player to have in a game, and a good way to lose friends or get booted. If you are going to be Evil, then you must let your fellow PLAYERS know, and hopefully get buy-in.[QUOTE] I didn't mean to steal from the party I meant to use SoH to take things that the party would normally leave behind and wouldn't think was helpful and keep them hidden until the items were needed or sold. ie: (for a wizard/rogue) part of the bones from a corpse or other macabre things that most wouldn't take
aotrscommander 09-22-06, 06:01 PM	I once burned a family of rabbits to death and said that I was doing it for food. You or your character...?
yrogerg 09-22-06, 08:55 PM	::shrugs:: I've played an Evil character in a Good-leaning Neutral party. (The total party makeup was 2 CG characters, one LN, one CN, my NE, and one Chaotic Stupid (which made the rest of the party hate that player)). I think being Evil in a Good party can work; you're just playing a character that's a bit more selfish than the rest, and your motivations are going to be based quite a bit more around advancing yourself and gaining power than whatever cause the rest of the party's involved in. You might be a bit more bloodthirsty or cold-hearted, feeling it necessary to mop up innocents "to make sure word doesn't get out" or "prevent problems in the future" or maybe "is just a bit too cavalier with area-damage spells" or some such. Basically, if you play with the border conditions between evil and neutral, you only really need to worry about Detect spells. My Evil character was a NE Poison Dusk Lizardfolk (MMIII) Ranger, and I tried to play up cultural differences to make the other PCs think they were 'unfairly oppressing' me by expecting my actions to fit into their narrow-minded Human morality. It worked fairly well. He stayed with the party because the periodic violence gave him a chance to become a better "hunter" (and he later took the Assassin PrC), and as the party got dragged into a gang-war, he was the first one to start double-crossing his patron's gang in order to further his own advancement. (The rest of the party eventually followed suit, for a variety of alignment-specific reasons, and this led to our patron failing to gain the resources he needed to fight in the gang war; it was really quite well-orchestrated on the DM's part) Obviously, being a Cleric of an Evil god maes it much more difficult, just as openly worshiping a Good diety would basically end an Evil campaign. Plus, the other players sound a bit... reactionary. I'd steer you away for playing a Cleric of an evil god, as it really does complicate matters, and it sounds like you should probably clear it with the players and DM OoC first, so that they don't brutally murder you for your first ambiguous act. But, if you can find a way to play this where Evil alignment helps describe your outlook and personality, but isn't disruptive to the party, then it can work. (Granted, I was playing in Eberron, where Good and Evil aren't quite the same monolithic forces in constant battle, so your milage may vary)
wolfie-kun 09-23-06, 12:00 PM	Antiheroes are fun. My current character is LE. He used to be a LN general in a semi-warmongering army (he became damn good friends with the warlord leader of the nation). Then one night, his troops (which he assumed had orders from someone higher up--this isn't proving to be true so far) killed the love of his life. His response? Slaughter them all in a blind rage and swear to destroy the entire army and nation. Consequences? The character now has a 200gp bounty on his head. In a world where having a mere 2gp on you means you're freaking rich. Enter the party. CN to NG in alignment. Now, my character has become a serious, cynical little bastard. He refuses to give anyone his trust, and if he can insult someone with only a few words, he will. I think the most he's ever spoken to anyone since leaving the army was about two sentences. So there's a bit of adventuring, with my character finding a major, but multi-piece artifact (he only found two pieces--the one that puts it together and one other). He decides that it would be the best tool to destroy his old army, and starts questing for it (during this time the other characters don't seem to have much motivation at all for the majority of their actions...kinda makes me sad that my character is the one moving the story along). So far, he's the most fun character I've ever played. Why is he evil? Unless someone's doing something to distract him from it, he's thinking about nothing but murdering every last member of that army. And he doesn't really care if he has to kill people who get in his way.
Tarvok 09-23-06, 10:54 PM	Another occasion to play evil in a good party is when the focus of the campaign has to do with Law vs. Chaos, rather than Good vs. Evil. An example would be a campaign in which small, embattled walled towns and castles are constantly defending against chaotic evil hordes, be they gnolls, orcs, and goblins, undead hordes, or abyssal invaders. (The game is more interesting with both good and evil characters if the enemies be humanoids that are usually, but not always, chaotic evil.) Such a campaign would revolve around attempts by the PC's Lawful home base to defend against, drive off, perhaps even gain control over, roving bands of Chaotic barbarians. In such a situation, you could well have followers of Heironius and Hextor fighting alongside one another... indeed, this could take place in an era *before* the schism between the two orders! Both take to the field of battle together, and so long as the battles are hard, long, and desperate, they fight well together, suppressing their philosophical differences for the sake of the war. However, conflict begins to break out between the two in certain situations. Say they really need to push forward to a better position, but there is a group of villagers in need of protection somewhere else... and they will take too long to move to a new position. The follower of Hextor will likely curse them for their stupidity in being outside a lawful fortress, and figure they'll get what they deserve when the orcs come... allow the situation to cull the weak. The follower of Heironius, however, would feel compelled to take the risk of protecting the villagers. Heated debates would take place, but so long as the situation was still dire, the side with which authority went would grumble, but cooperate. (An all Hextor unit would likely slaughter the villagers to avoid having their goods fall into the hands of the enemy, though.) Another situation: Together, they manage to completely route the enemy, and enter their encampment, finding defensless children and elders, who merely cower in the presence of their captors. Another debate occurs: what to do with them? The followers of Heironius want to take them prisoner, maybe turn the children over to their people to be raised as their own. The followers of Hextor "know" that they'll only grow up to be chaotic orc warriors, and figure the smartest thing to do is to eliminate them now, before they become dangerous. As the wars wind down and kingdoms take posession of the land, grand schisms break open, and the battle between Law and Chaos is forgotten as a new battle between Good and Evil begins. succession wars and such... Similar situations probably could exist in the reverse situation, with orcish and human freedom fighters banding together in an uneasy alliance against their uberLawful oppressors...
Usiris 09-24-06, 12:09 AM	If the scenario is anything like Tarvok described, I'd say go with that. However, if you are stuck with a Paladin or Cleric of Heironeous or any other particularly righteous do gooders, things could get messy. 1) You and the do gooders might wind up facing off against each other if you do a lot of moustache-twirling as Live Wire put it. If you try to be more subtle, you have to be really careful. 2) To avoid the party tearing each other apart, your DM might feel compelled to railroad the campaign so somehow your evil deeds will always be committed while the good guys' backs are turned. I had this happen in a flip-flop situation. (Playing an LG cleric of Heironeous with a fighter who made no secret of his worship of Hextor and the fact he just wanted to rule the world.) That feels really artificial to me and I expect it would to you as well. 3)You can be a bad guy who "sees the light." It's an interesting angle but maybe not what you want. To avoid #2, I had my cleric eventually fall and worship Hextor instead. It was a good RP angle to play, plus I was able to be a part of the group again. (The rest of the party were all CNs, One only cared about fame. The second only cared about money. The last was just insane. They all followed the LE Fighter, isolating my character, because they were completely ambivalent to whatever harm they caused.)
kelvinaw273 09-24-06, 07:52 AM	Anti-heroes aside, the answer is generally: Don't.
setekh 09-24-06, 12:57 PM	N / E - Doing whatever will further your own ends. If saving said village will earn you a greater reward than mushing it would, then you save it.
tiercel 09-24-06, 11:16 PM	My first answer, like several others before me, is "Don't." There are, as have been described, ways that you can successfully do so, though it's not easy. (If you pull it off, though, it is a character you'll be telling "war stories" about for years to come.) The primary thing to keep in mind is, will your character *add* to the fun of the group, or *take away* from the fun of the group. It's one thing to have a selfish egomaniac character, but you can't use that an excuse to be a selfish egomaniac at the gaming table (note that I'm not suggesting that you are, but that people who play Evil characters do fall into this trap at least at times). Thus, step 1 in this process is: Talk to your DM, and the other players, about it. If your DM and/or rest of gaming group is going to be unhappy with an Evil character in their group of Champions of Light, bringing him anyway is just going to disrupt the group. If they are a bit unsure but open-minded, assure them that your character will be a "team player," not someone who will be looking to backstab the party at the first chance or who will be getting into stupid harebrained Evil Schemes that will backfire and get the rest of the party into the same mess as the would-be villain. Then, stick to your word. At the same time, make sure that the DM and particularly other players aren't going to automatically bring out-of-character knowledge and prejudice to bear against your character just because they, as players, know that your character is Evil. ---------- The key to a good D&D character in most any group is the ability to work *with* a group. As much fun as it might be for you personally to imagine playing a domineering mastermind who turns your partymates into puppets to your every whim, a lightfingered footpad who is always stealing from the party or at least the party's loot sack or at least what was about to go into the loot sack but it wasn't in there yet so it wasn't stealing from the party honest, an antisocial loner who does his own thing even to the extent of ignoring his partymates, or a perverse contrarian who constantly takes delight in stirring up intraparty conflict and waging constant arguments.... ...no matter how much you like a given character idea individually, if that character concept is going to wreck the team dynamic of the game, you're very likely to mess up the gaming group, which means no one will be having any fun. Make sure any character concept you come up with can "play well with others", whether Good or Evil, Lawful or Chaotic.