How do I cure PC-phobia? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How do I cure PC-phobia? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheOnlyElfBarbarian
12-23-07, 07:05 AM The problems started with an epic evil campaign, where me and my friends actually acidentally built our characters wrong (we continued normal saves and base attack bonus progression instead of epic progression) and had enough D&D experience to build really powerful characters with the starting gold and 27 character levels we started with. We easily powered through the first couple of encounters (and had fun doing it) but soon the GM became troubled by this and began spending hours devising encounters specifically tailored to defeat us (not just challenge us). Soon other problems with the game (this was both the GM's and all of the players' first epic game) caused it to stop.
There were no problems from this except that, in every campaign after that one, that GM seems actually irrationally afraid of PCs and their character class abilities. He would go so far as to attempt to change or eliminate basic class abilities, without any compensation, in the middle of a game session, when he felt they "unbalanced" the game, such as: Greater Turning, Smite Evil, and Sneak Attack. When the we became noticably tired of defending our character's special abilities, he switched to more passive ways of neutralizing them, such as constantly having the monster have "no discernable anatomy", they're all neutral, the ranger would NEVER run into his favored enemies, even when it would make sense, or the fire-specialized wizard would always have to fight in the middle of a plain with tall dried grass.
The detail and the story of his games make them worth playing. But it's just a drag when the GM consciously turns every aspect of the world into a direct opposition of each of the PCs. Each game litterally ends up becoming the GM vs. players.

Does anyone have any ideas on how we can cure our GM's PC-phobia and show him that class abilities do not unbalance a game?
Fatalis_902
12-23-07, 08:03 AM Have you tried talking to him? That is really the best solution. Before you do, make sure that all the players agree, and seek him out before or after a session, prefferably with the others in tow, so that you don't sound like a disruptive, whiney brat. Explain to him how the fact that he is making the entire world opposed to the PCs and turning every game into DM vs. Players is ruining the game for you, and how you are not having fun anymore. If he is reasonable, and is your friend, he should be willing to put the games back to where they belong. If that doesn't work, then your options are more limited.

Option 1: Leave the game and have someone else DM. If you do wind up going with this option, make sure that you further explain why you are leaving, and you probably want to invite him into the new DM's game. He is your friend, after all, and it would be awful to have a friendship ruined over a game.

Option 2: Hammergun him. This is a last resort option. If he won't change, and refuses to allow you to leave his game, then pull out the hammergun, state calmly that you are leaving the game, and try to leave. If he still refuses to allow it, shoot him. In the face. Then you will be clear to leave his game and start a new one with your remaining friends.*

*Do NOT actually try this option. It will cost you a friend, and your freedom as you are carted of to jail for Aggravated Assault and Battery, Assault with a Deadly Weapon, and Attempted or First Degree Murder.
Evil DM Mk3
12-23-07, 08:47 AM This is not that uncommon in inexperienced DMs, (how experienced is yours?) but sounds like a highly advanced case to me, I mean SNEAK ATTACK?

Seriously though there are a few established cures. Here are some recommendations.

1:Talk to him. Explain how he is ruining your gaming fun. Remind him that DnD is about fun for all. This can backfire if he is the sort who hates to be criticised and you have to approach him carefully. Get it wrong and in his eyes you are trying to ruin his game, again.

2:Let it roll, over you. Actions speak louder than words, in my own experience of curing this we had to let him get it out of his system. After four sessions of PC-phobia the party's 5th level fighter died to a dire badger and the party wizard had 4 spells he could use. We then pointed out the reality of events. He is mostly better now.

3:Swap chairs. A default solution to "My DM is XYZ" problems. DM yourself for a while. You will either end up understanding why he is so irate or show him the right way, either way you are in a better situation to deal with it.

For the record I advocate one of the two kinds of adversarial DMing (the kind where you plan a lot of hard and challenging events that can make them die if they act like fools), this is a case of the other kind.
kelvinaw273
12-23-07, 08:52 AM Yes, that's pretty much it.

You can either talk to him and sort out the issues (Epic games are incredibly hard to run at the best of times, let alone if you get the rules completely fubared), or else put the DMs hat on and show him how it is done.
danielinthewolvesden
12-23-07, 12:50 PM Well, try this: Invite him here to have him explain and give his side.
Evil DM Mk3
12-23-07, 04:07 PM Well, try this: Invite him here to have him explain and give his side.
Oh! Even handed debate! On a web forum! Its so crazy it might just work! :)
metalmayhem80110
12-23-07, 04:46 PM Oh! Even handed debate! On a web forum! Its so crazy it might just work! :)

I don't know if it could work man... I mean, ideas like those get things solved... Do we really want t hat?
Fatalis_902
12-23-07, 05:53 PM I don't know if it could work man... I mean, ideas like those get things solved... Do we really want t hat?

Not a chance! OP, you can't bring him in here, not if it'll help us get a more fair perspective on things!
Evil DM Mk3
12-23-07, 06:08 PM Do we really want t hat?

Yes. I like hats.:D (sorry too good an error not to pun)
Salla
12-23-07, 06:24 PM Some DMs just don't understand that PCs are supposed to win. They're the heroes.

In my experience, DMs knee-jerk ban things because they always use the same kinds of opposition, and therefore a PC who hoses that kind of opposition becomes inordinately powerful ... not because of the class, but because of the DM.

For example, I played under a DM who heavily used undead. Even if he wouldn't say, 'this is an undead heavy game', it would be an undead heavy game. He always used undead. After a bit, we rapidly realized this, and at the onset of one game, we fielded a party of two Clerics (of Pelor), a Druid, and a Paladin. We chewed up his game, because the only things we saw that weren't undead were the necromancers pulling their strings.
Sinfire Titan
12-23-07, 09:10 PM Some DMs just don't understand that PCs are supposed to win. They're the heroes.

Fallacy. All real heroes are dead. :P
KillerVole
12-23-07, 10:32 PM I have a DM just like this. He's sure enchantment magic is broken, so all his baddies counterspell everything, without readied actions or anything.

First, talk to your DM. Of course, this might not work. He may try to justify his way of doing things.

The DM is probably really set in their mentality that almost everything's broken if they won't change after a talk. However, usually there is something that they think is not broken. If talking fails to work, you guys should just find that thing and play it. Maybe the DM like straight fighters. If so, the whole group should play them. If he notices and asks what's going on, explain to him that you are playing what can succeed in his game.

In my example, I discovered that the DM thinks wizards should just be nukes. As a response, I now prepare only attack spells. Sooner or later, he'll probably notice, and label them as broken, but for now, it works for both of us.
Elsydeon
12-23-07, 11:41 PM Welcome to epic D&D? You either crush the opposition before they can move or they do it to you. It's not the DMs fault, he's just trying to fight against the obvious flow of the game mechanics at epic levels.
danielinthewolvesden
12-24-07, 02:38 AM Oh! Even handed debate! On a web forum! Its so crazy it might just work! :)

It likely will not work, sadly. :weep: That is because I have made the same suggestion over & over and only one person has ever done so. I really think most folks are afraid of us hearing the other side.:weep: :raincloud :allalone:
Gonko
12-27-07, 04:54 PM I can sympathize with your DM. I ran an epic level campaign with my players and I allowed them anything that was in the books. Combine this with a group of very experienced players and you have hell on your hands. The group consisted of a paladin, a psion, wizard, druid, and rogue. In order to make a challenging encounter, a monster or NPC had to have the following capabilities:

1. An armor class of at least 50 (with damage reduction of course), otherwise it would die quickly due to plain old physical attacks.
2. A LOT of hit points to withstand the attacks that do get through.
3. Regeneration or healing capability.
3. Very high spell resistance and saving throws, otherwise the 4-5 nukes that the wizard, druid, and psion were casting would kill it.
4. Ability to PERMANENTLY nullify dimensional travel of all kinds, otherwise the party would use a quickened teleport or similar spell to run away from battle. If the effect wasn't permanent, it would quickly be dispelled followed by a teleport to run away.
5. Must be able to hit a armor class 50 consistently and hit for huge amounts of damage or cast multiple spells each round with very difficult DC saves to threaten or kill multiple targets.
6. A terrain or setting that would give the NPC or monter a distinct advantage of some sort.
7. An antimagic field or some way to nullify the dozens of magic items that they were equipped with due to item creation feats.
8. Ability to deal with characters who like using ethereal spells, flying or other means of evading the monster/NPC entirely.

I'm sure there a few more that I'm forgetting but you get the point. If an encounter lacked one of these, the PCs would quickly exploit the weakness, and toast the encounter in a heartbeat. Even with a well-crafted encounter that could challenge the PCs without breaking the rules, combat would take F O R E V E R due to the complexity of having to deal with PCs with a combined total of about 100 character levels, 50 feats, 500 hit points, countless spells to toss, dozens of magic items, multiple characters and monster/NPCs, and a small library of books from which all of this was created.

To top it all off, the players would still be ****** or unsatisfied on occasions because I would (god forbid) have an monster/NPC use the same tactics that they would use right back at themselves.

What your DM seems to be doing is taking the shortcut method. Instead of creating an encounter in the method I describe, he will just save himself the many hours it would take to make the encounter and just say that everything is a construct that can't be sneak attacked or you're always fighting in tall dry grass. It's much easier to do that than spend all the extra time.

I'd say try DMing a similar campaign yourself and see how it turns out. I'm sure you'll sympathize.
Turin
12-28-07, 11:07 AM While the OP hasn't said as much, the GM sounds very inexperienced and started GMing with an epic-level campaign.

I'd suggest that, just as players new to the game should start in low-level campaigns, so too should inexperienced GMs start with low-level campaigns even if they've been a player for a while. It's one thing being on the player's side and thinking you understand how the game works, but until you've GM'd, you really don't. Maybe if the GM started out with a low-level game and worked his way up slowly, he might learn how to deal with those elements of the game that seem overwhelming if he's never been on the other side of the screen.
Mooncalf
12-29-07, 09:01 PM Sometimes, DMing a game yourself can help, if you know what you're doing. Specifically, you can show your misled DM that you can hold an interesting game, and offer interesting and challenging opposition, without having to cheat.

My group has a lot of campaigns going, with just about everyone DMing something. One guy has a tendency to thumb the rules quite a lot, such as huge undefined monsters with strange abilities and such, and I'm sure he pieces them together more from what our saves and attack modifiers are than anything legally balanced. I think he feels he has to do it that way to offer a good challenge. I, on the other hand, pick things from the books. Sure, I reroll their ability scores and hp, choose feats I think work better, add some extra HD if the CR needs to be upped, and equip them with items if it makes sense for the monster to carry such things, but it makes for good encounters. So far they enjoy it, and I think they also enjoy having a firm grasp of what they're fighting, whether it's a giant spider or a dragon.

In regards to PC abilities... those players worked hard for those. They took levels specifically to get those abilities, and they deserve the chance to use them. Letting a player play a lvl 20 rogue and pitting him only against undead? You're basically saying 'you might as well have played a commoner'. They deserve an opportunity to shine. Not all the time, maybe - sometimes you have to give them a difficult situation, so they can figure out how to get ahead without their main feature - but they should feel they're useful from time to time. Sneak attack, turning, spells... it's all good.

And seriously, playing an epic game and nerfing their fields of experise? He's begging for the hammergun. On those levels, the PCs will have abundant abilities, and they'll want to use them. You don't want that, you DM a low-level campaign. Much simpler.
Kersyk
12-29-07, 09:40 PM what causes problems in a lot of epic level games is that the PC's are not used to the sudden level of power, epic level games are more fun and overall more rewarding if you work your way up from level one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheOnlyElfBarbarian 12-23-07, 07:05 AM	The problems started with an epic evil campaign, where me and my friends actually acidentally built our characters wrong (we continued normal saves and base attack bonus progression instead of epic progression) and had enough D&D experience to build really powerful characters with the starting gold and 27 character levels we started with. We easily powered through the first couple of encounters (and had fun doing it) but soon the GM became troubled by this and began spending hours devising encounters specifically tailored to defeat us (not just challenge us). Soon other problems with the game (this was both the GM's and all of the players' first epic game) caused it to stop. There were no problems from this except that, in every campaign after that one, that GM seems actually irrationally afraid of PCs and their character class abilities. He would go so far as to attempt to change or eliminate basic class abilities, without any compensation, in the middle of a game session, when he felt they "unbalanced" the game, such as: Greater Turning, Smite Evil, and Sneak Attack. When the we became noticably tired of defending our character's special abilities, he switched to more passive ways of neutralizing them, such as constantly having the monster have "no discernable anatomy", they're all neutral, the ranger would NEVER run into his favored enemies, even when it would make sense, or the fire-specialized wizard would always have to fight in the middle of a plain with tall dried grass. The detail and the story of his games make them worth playing. But it's just a drag when the GM consciously turns every aspect of the world into a direct opposition of each of the PCs. Each game litterally ends up becoming the GM vs. players. Does anyone have any ideas on how we can cure our GM's PC-phobia and show him that class abilities do not unbalance a game?
Fatalis_902 12-23-07, 08:03 AM	Have you tried talking to him? That is really the best solution. Before you do, make sure that all the players agree, and seek him out before or after a session, prefferably with the others in tow, so that you don't sound like a disruptive, whiney brat. Explain to him how the fact that he is making the entire world opposed to the PCs and turning every game into DM vs. Players is ruining the game for you, and how you are not having fun anymore. If he is reasonable, and is your friend, he should be willing to put the games back to where they belong. If that doesn't work, then your options are more limited. Option 1: Leave the game and have someone else DM. If you do wind up going with this option, make sure that you further explain why you are leaving, and you probably want to invite him into the new DM's game. He is your friend, after all, and it would be awful to have a friendship ruined over a game. Option 2: Hammergun him. This is a last resort option. If he won't change, and refuses to allow you to leave his game, then pull out the hammergun, state calmly that you are leaving the game, and try to leave. If he still refuses to allow it, shoot him. In the face. Then you will be clear to leave his game and start a new one with your remaining friends.* *Do NOT actually try this option. It will cost you a friend, and your freedom as you are carted of to jail for Aggravated Assault and Battery, Assault with a Deadly Weapon, and Attempted or First Degree Murder.
Evil DM Mk3 12-23-07, 08:47 AM	This is not that uncommon in inexperienced DMs, (how experienced is yours?) but sounds like a highly advanced case to me, I mean SNEAK ATTACK? Seriously though there are a few established cures. Here are some recommendations. 1:Talk to him. Explain how he is ruining your gaming fun. Remind him that DnD is about fun for all. This can backfire if he is the sort who hates to be criticised and you have to approach him carefully. Get it wrong and in his eyes you are trying to ruin his game, again. 2:Let it roll, over you. Actions speak louder than words, in my own experience of curing this we had to let him get it out of his system. After four sessions of PC-phobia the party's 5th level fighter died to a dire badger and the party wizard had 4 spells he could use. We then pointed out the reality of events. He is mostly better now. 3:Swap chairs. A default solution to "My DM is XYZ" problems. DM yourself for a while. You will either end up understanding why he is so irate or show him the right way, either way you are in a better situation to deal with it. For the record I advocate one of the two kinds of adversarial DMing (the kind where you plan a lot of hard and challenging events that can make them die if they act like fools), this is a case of the other kind.
kelvinaw273 12-23-07, 08:52 AM	Yes, that's pretty much it. You can either talk to him and sort out the issues (Epic games are incredibly hard to run at the best of times, let alone if you get the rules completely fubared), or else put the DMs hat on and show him how it is done.
danielinthewolvesden 12-23-07, 12:50 PM	Well, try this: Invite him here to have him explain and give his side.
Evil DM Mk3 12-23-07, 04:07 PM	Well, try this: Invite him here to have him explain and give his side. Oh! Even handed debate! On a web forum! Its so crazy it might just work! :)
metalmayhem80110 12-23-07, 04:46 PM	Oh! Even handed debate! On a web forum! Its so crazy it might just work! :) I don't know if it could work man... I mean, ideas like those get things solved... Do we really want t hat?
Fatalis_902 12-23-07, 05:53 PM	I don't know if it could work man... I mean, ideas like those get things solved... Do we really want t hat? Not a chance! OP, you can't bring him in here, not if it'll help us get a more fair perspective on things!
Evil DM Mk3 12-23-07, 06:08 PM	Do we really want t hat? Yes. I like hats.:D (sorry too good an error not to pun)
Salla 12-23-07, 06:24 PM	Some DMs just don't understand that PCs are supposed to win. They're the heroes. In my experience, DMs knee-jerk ban things because they always use the same kinds of opposition, and therefore a PC who hoses that kind of opposition becomes inordinately powerful ... not because of the class, but because of the DM. For example, I played under a DM who heavily used undead. Even if he wouldn't say, 'this is an undead heavy game', it would be an undead heavy game. He always used undead. After a bit, we rapidly realized this, and at the onset of one game, we fielded a party of two Clerics (of Pelor), a Druid, and a Paladin. We chewed up his game, because the only things we saw that weren't undead were the necromancers pulling their strings.
Sinfire Titan 12-23-07, 09:10 PM	Some DMs just don't understand that PCs are supposed to win. They're the heroes. Fallacy. All real heroes are dead. :P
KillerVole 12-23-07, 10:32 PM	I have a DM just like this. He's sure enchantment magic is broken, so all his baddies counterspell everything, without readied actions or anything. First, talk to your DM. Of course, this might not work. He may try to justify his way of doing things. The DM is probably really set in their mentality that almost everything's broken if they won't change after a talk. However, usually there is something that they think is not broken. If talking fails to work, you guys should just find that thing and play it. Maybe the DM like straight fighters. If so, the whole group should play them. If he notices and asks what's going on, explain to him that you are playing what can succeed in his game. In my example, I discovered that the DM thinks wizards should just be nukes. As a response, I now prepare only attack spells. Sooner or later, he'll probably notice, and label them as broken, but for now, it works for both of us.
Elsydeon 12-23-07, 11:41 PM	Welcome to epic D&D? You either crush the opposition before they can move or they do it to you. It's not the DMs fault, he's just trying to fight against the obvious flow of the game mechanics at epic levels.
danielinthewolvesden 12-24-07, 02:38 AM	Oh! Even handed debate! On a web forum! Its so crazy it might just work! :) It likely will not work, sadly. :weep: That is because I have made the same suggestion over & over and only one person has ever done so. I really think most folks are afraid of us hearing the other side.:weep: :raincloud :allalone:
Gonko 12-27-07, 04:54 PM	I can sympathize with your DM. I ran an epic level campaign with my players and I allowed them anything that was in the books. Combine this with a group of very experienced players and you have hell on your hands. The group consisted of a paladin, a psion, wizard, druid, and rogue. In order to make a challenging encounter, a monster or NPC had to have the following capabilities: 1. An armor class of at least 50 (with damage reduction of course), otherwise it would die quickly due to plain old physical attacks. 2. A LOT of hit points to withstand the attacks that do get through. 3. Regeneration or healing capability. 3. Very high spell resistance and saving throws, otherwise the 4-5 nukes that the wizard, druid, and psion were casting would kill it. 4. Ability to PERMANENTLY nullify dimensional travel of all kinds, otherwise the party would use a quickened teleport or similar spell to run away from battle. If the effect wasn't permanent, it would quickly be dispelled followed by a teleport to run away. 5. Must be able to hit a armor class 50 consistently and hit for huge amounts of damage or cast multiple spells each round with very difficult DC saves to threaten or kill multiple targets. 6. A terrain or setting that would give the NPC or monter a distinct advantage of some sort. 7. An antimagic field or some way to nullify the dozens of magic items that they were equipped with due to item creation feats. 8. Ability to deal with characters who like using ethereal spells, flying or other means of evading the monster/NPC entirely. I'm sure there a few more that I'm forgetting but you get the point. If an encounter lacked one of these, the PCs would quickly exploit the weakness, and toast the encounter in a heartbeat. Even with a well-crafted encounter that could challenge the PCs without breaking the rules, combat would take F O R E V E R due to the complexity of having to deal with PCs with a combined total of about 100 character levels, 50 feats, 500 hit points, countless spells to toss, dozens of magic items, multiple characters and monster/NPCs, and a small library of books from which all of this was created. To top it all off, the players would still be ****** or unsatisfied on occasions because I would (god forbid) have an monster/NPC use the same tactics that they would use right back at themselves. What your DM seems to be doing is taking the shortcut method. Instead of creating an encounter in the method I describe, he will just save himself the many hours it would take to make the encounter and just say that everything is a construct that can't be sneak attacked or you're always fighting in tall dry grass. It's much easier to do that than spend all the extra time. I'd say try DMing a similar campaign yourself and see how it turns out. I'm sure you'll sympathize.
Turin 12-28-07, 11:07 AM	While the OP hasn't said as much, the GM sounds very inexperienced and started GMing with an epic-level campaign. I'd suggest that, just as players new to the game should start in low-level campaigns, so too should inexperienced GMs start with low-level campaigns even if they've been a player for a while. It's one thing being on the player's side and thinking you understand how the game works, but until you've GM'd, you really don't. Maybe if the GM started out with a low-level game and worked his way up slowly, he might learn how to deal with those elements of the game that seem overwhelming if he's never been on the other side of the screen.
Mooncalf 12-29-07, 09:01 PM	Sometimes, DMing a game yourself can help, if you know what you're doing. Specifically, you can show your misled DM that you can hold an interesting game, and offer interesting and challenging opposition, without having to cheat. My group has a lot of campaigns going, with just about everyone DMing something. One guy has a tendency to thumb the rules quite a lot, such as huge undefined monsters with strange abilities and such, and I'm sure he pieces them together more from what our saves and attack modifiers are than anything legally balanced. I think he feels he has to do it that way to offer a good challenge. I, on the other hand, pick things from the books. Sure, I reroll their ability scores and hp, choose feats I think work better, add some extra HD if the CR needs to be upped, and equip them with items if it makes sense for the monster to carry such things, but it makes for good encounters. So far they enjoy it, and I think they also enjoy having a firm grasp of what they're fighting, whether it's a giant spider or a dragon. In regards to PC abilities... those players worked hard for those. They took levels specifically to get those abilities, and they deserve the chance to use them. Letting a player play a lvl 20 rogue and pitting him only against undead? You're basically saying 'you might as well have played a commoner'. They deserve an opportunity to shine. Not all the time, maybe - sometimes you have to give them a difficult situation, so they can figure out how to get ahead without their main feature - but they should feel they're useful from time to time. Sneak attack, turning, spells... it's all good. And seriously, playing an epic game and nerfing their fields of experise? He's begging for the hammergun. On those levels, the PCs will have abundant abilities, and they'll want to use them. You don't want that, you DM a low-level campaign. Much simpler.
Kersyk 12-29-07, 09:40 PM	what causes problems in a lot of epic level games is that the PC's are not used to the sudden level of power, epic level games are more fun and overall more rewarding if you work your way up from level one.