Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheGreatSanguini 02-17-08, 11:05 AM	My DM hates DMing. He's started a campaign with my group, and his plot so far is actually pretty good - he's created a great setting in which the party feels familiar and comfortable, and through which we can get all manner of quests. He's done a bang-up job so far. But he hates it. He says his problems stem from: 1) He wants to play some of his characters. He doesn't want to put them in as just DM PCs (nor do we want any DMPCs). 2) He feels he's forced to work on the campaign too much, and that it's eating up his free time. I keep suggesting that all he really needs to do is print off any of the prewritten WoTC adventures, but he counters that then he's not really playing anything - he's only reading off a piece of paper while all of us have fun. 3) He claims that our party is way too unbalanced. He yells "broken!" at generic core spells (usually any save-or-lose). This may be because he's relatively inexperienced. Regardless of where it comes from, he's depressed that we're all "abusing the game" and creating "broken characters" (every spellcaster except for the awkward Elementalist Wood Elf Cleric). Our party contained: The Great Sanguini: A chaotic evil psychopathic wizard. He's a Focused Specialist Conjurer. Wiz3/Master Specialist2. Flobby; Eater of Pancakes: An insane wizard who has a phobia of beards and is stocked up with enchantment/illusion spells to mess with people's heads. He's actually pretty powerful. Wiz5 Muffin J. Kaboose: A long-running orc character of my friend. Int6, Wis6, Cha6. You can tell from those stats and his name how he's going to be played. Barb 5 Joe Bob Joe: He hasn't named his character yet, and therefore is being referred to as Joe Bob Joe. He's a Cleric with Healing and Winter domains, and is stacked up with as much Shivering Touch and Shivering Touch, Lesser, as he can. He also has 25 spell storing arrows with shivering touch and a few buffs/heals in them. If you ever wanted to kill 10 great wurms in one session, my guess is he'd be your guy. Clr 5 Jim the Pirate: He's new to the group, relatively new to D&D, and is playing a fighter. He's underpowered, and doesn't understand much about the rules. He is officially our "star trek redshirt". I don't expect him to amount to anything else. Ftr 5 Wood Elf Elementalist Cleric: He is a cleric, that focuses on elemental powers. Naturally, this is disasterous and he's incredibly underpowered compared to everybody else, directly because of his own choices. Clr 5 A summarized version of the first session: Our party spawned into the world. We were told that we all previously knew eachother, and liked the cut of eachother's respective gib. We start off on a road in the middle of nowhere, heading towards a huge metropolis. We all roll knowledge(local) checks to see if any of us know what's going on. Flobby rolls a natural 20, and has 8 ranks into it, and an Int bonus of 4. He manages to find out that the metropolis is split into different sections, each of which is basically controlled by a different guild. We make it to the front gates, and there are three guards there. Muffin is informed that he thinks that there is a world of cookies and soft, fluffy bunny rabbits behind the gates. Therefore, he charges at full speed towards the gate. Two guards prepare their shortspears and one runs for help. The rest of the party saunters forwards at their regular pace - this isn't anything new. The guards return with reinforcements, and after a brief verbal scuffle we manage to get in. Funny story - Jim the pirate got tied up for not binding muffin. Anyways, we go inside the city. Flobby, being as he was just designated as party leader during that scuffle, decides we're all going to find an inn. everyone in the party besides Sanguini gets a room. Sanguini instead goes looking for work, asking around for what there is in this metropolis. He's pointed in the direction of a guild tower or the arena, and decides to check out the guild tower first. He's rather trustingly allowed to immediately see the Head Honcho of this guild outpost, and is quickly inducted into the guild, only having to go check out the arena before becoming a full member. While this is going on, Flobby and the Elementalist hop out of the inn to go look at magic item shops. Flobby holds Muffin under control by saying that if Muffin stays in his room like a good little boy, he'll get special cookies. After a few hours, Sanguini returns from the arena and gets his guild colours along with the markings as such, then goes back to the arena to continue watching "Man vs. Beast". Jim the Pirate decides to start a bar fight, and tries to get Muffin to come along. At that moment, Flobby returns with special cookies and tells muffin to follow him for more. Joe Bob Joe says that he'll help Jim out in a barfight, possibly, maybe. So Joe and Jim head out to find some fights. Flobby and the Elementalist get Muffin comatose drunk with two pitchers of dwarven ale and copious amounts of other alchohol. They then bring him to jail, 'cause they know that when he wakes up, he's going to be feral (Int1, Wis1, Cha1). Jim goes into the roughest, toughest, meanest bar he can find. He buys a bottle of rum, chugs it, then flips over the nearest table (that has four orcs and a scarred veteran playing poker), and yells "BAR FIGHT!". Joe Bob Joe went outside the bar, summoned a Giant Bombardier Beetle, then teleported into a nearby house to avoid Jim finding him. The beetle, since it was not commanded, bit Jim. And the barfighters surrounded and pummeled him. Many attacks of opportunity later, he ran away. That concluded day 1. On day 2, all we did was go to the arena, fight some staggered short-ranged battles in fighting squares off to the side of the main attractions. Flobby died. Jim died. The Elementalist was useless. Muffin didn't get picked up from jail (His player had gone to work). Everybody else got some experience. Nothing particularly noteworthy happened. The DM got more and more frustrated by how easily we dispatched his level 3 NPCs, and this triggered a near continuous flow of "cheesy, broken, beardy, lame, cheesy..." from both him and the Elementalist. Now I've detailed what happened, what our party is, what our campaign is, and what he's said his problems are. I hope this is enough information. How do I fix my DM? Is there any way to help him enjoy what he's doing, or explain to him to do something else as DM that he will enjoy? Is there anything that can really be done at all? Thanks in advance, -Sanguini
Rood_Inverse 02-17-08, 12:05 PM	My gut instinct is that there's nothing wrong with your DM. (Except maybe that he didn't use core-only to start as a DM with.) Everything is wrong with your group. Your group is unfocused and mostly a joke. Asylum inmates have made more coherent character concepts, and not for therapy sessions, either. What you've done is just take the most absolute, random poo you could come up with and fling it at an inexperienced DM who barely knows how to handle the game, let alone your own unique brand of insanity. Don't even pretend that any of your are remotely creative in your characters... *SMH* You want to fix your DM? Or even just keep him as DM? Stop being jag-offs and try to operate inside the framework of, "He's a new DM, take it easy on him." Once I gather my wits, maybe I can offer more constructive advice, if you want it. But my gut instinct is, if I were him, I wouldn't DM for you and I wouldn't even game with you. Not every game has to be, "D&D. Serious business." But you guys are just acting like morons.
TheGreatSanguini 02-17-08, 12:23 PM	Our DM has run about four campaigns prior to this, so this isn't his first time dealing with us. And while I agree it would've been nice to have some party coherency, we didn't even know what eachother was playing until the night before the campaign started. This is Jim's first "real" campaign. Muffin has always acted the way he did (he's unpredictable, in the most predictable way possible). Flobby is new to the group as a whole, but the most experienced as far as D&D is concerned. I think that we do fit together about as well as psych ward inmates, mostly because about half of us would be. What exactly led you to think that we were just acting like morons though? I agree that getting Muffin comatose drunk was not in the party's best interest, but we knew that he had to leave the session early anyways and therefore this served as a decent excuse for leaving him out of the action, and would let him be feral in the arena battle we'd planned and were being payed by the guild to do in the next game day. Jim was rather stupid indeed - and as a new player, it's kind of expected. So, what did we do wrong then, and what can we do to avoid it? If you're going to flame us, at the very least you could add something useful.
Pfisiar 02-17-08, 12:47 PM	It's clear this guy doesn't want to DM. I have a sneaky suspicion that this group is made up people that refuse to DM and push the responsibility on one poor shmuck. Seriously, if you want a better campaign, you DM.
danielinthewolvesden 02-17-08, 01:12 PM	My gut instinct is that there's nothing wrong with your DM. (Except maybe that he didn't use core-only to start as a DM with.) Everything is wrong with your group. Your group is unfocused and mostly a joke. Asylum inmates have made more coherent character concepts, and not for therapy sessions, either. What you've done is just take the most absolute, random poo you could come up with and fling it at an inexperienced DM who barely knows how to handle the game, let alone your own unique brand of insanity. Don't even pretend that any of your are remotely creative in your characters... *SMH* . You want to fix your DM? Or even just keep him as DM? Stop being jag-offs and try to operate inside the framework of, "He's a new DM, take it easy on him." Once I gather my wits, maybe I can offer more constructive advice, if you want it. But my gut instinct is, if I were him, I wouldn't DM for you and I wouldn't even game with you. Not every game has to be, "D&D. Serious business." But you guys are just acting like morons. He's right....100% right.:bow: :clap: Part of this is your DM's fault, he should have required 1st or 2nd level, and then after looking at your PC's he should have said "I also want serious, heroic PC, no jokes, no Evils, and you must get along together as team. Ok, let us sit around tonite and re-roll and you guys come up with a team of reasonable serious PC's."
Rood_Inverse 02-17-08, 01:31 PM	So, what did we do wrong then, and what can we do to avoid it? If you're going to flame us, at the very least you could add something useful. . . . Your orc, Muffin, needs to go. Seriously. Mongo, from Blazing Saddles is good comic relief for all of 5 minutes. After that, the same schtick gets old and disruptive. You've already recognized that behavior, and taken measures to correct it in-game. You put him in jail, because you knew both his player and his character would go around smashing **** up as soon as he regained consciousness. This is something that needs to be corrected out-of-game. . . . Jim the Pirate is just as much of a problem. I suspect those two players feed off each other. The more stupid one gets, the more the second tries to top him. There's a limit in the social contract to what a player can and can't do in-game. Yelling, "Barfight!" and knifing random people violates that contract in most circumstances - this was one of them. As a player, he wasted everyone else's time while he went off and did this. Nothing productive was accomplished. You wasted the DM's time, because he created a town, an adventure, and maybe an entire campaign for you. Doing this was the same thing as telling him to not bother creating adventures. . . . Joe... Does nothing. He followed Jim around until Jim started something and then just added fuel to the fire. Your entire group seems to do this. One guy does something random and potentially disruptive, and each of you escalates, to see who can cause the most chaos and destruction. . . . Sanguini was the only one who did anything remotely productive. But "chaotic evil," considering how the rest of your group operates, is just a big red, flashing warning light to me. Do you behave nearly as badly as the rest of them do? . . . You have killed your DM's spirit. He works hard on his stuff, and you guys don't even pay attention to it. Part of the social contract is willingly accepting the plot hooks presented and having the adventure. With what you do, you might as well not invite your DM. This last game was the incarnation of the Dead Alewives sketch, that you probably know as "8-bit D&D." It might be funny to watch for the two minutes, or however long the sketch is. But imagine sitting there, as a spectator (ie, your DM) for four hours watching the same thing go on and on and on. Makes a DM want to either eat a bullet, or put one in each of his players' heads. What you guys need to do is grow up some, stop watching "Monty Python" and "FLCL," and try to have a moderately serious game for once. . . . The best thing your DM can do right now is probably scrap the entire campaign and make a core-only game. No extra supplements or anything, since he already has problems with some of the core rules being "broken" and "unbalanced." Second, he needs to review all the books again and brush up on the rules. Then he needs to check the FAQ and errata. Maybe some of that "brokenness" has been fixed. Many things have already been addressed there. When was the last time he got to play? You said he's done 4 previous campaigns. Were they the last 4 your group played? If they were, I can imagine how tired of your gaming style he is. That's off the top of my head. Anything else I can help address?
aotrscommander 02-17-08, 02:04 PM	Additional note: Shivering Touch is just about the most broken spell with regard to it's level in the entire of D&D; it's a dragon killer; two will pretty much end any combat. Actually, a Sudden Maximised, Sudden Empowered Shivering Touch (average 28-29 Dex damage) will pretty much win against anything except very high Dex monsters (like Air Elementals) and Undead. It is the only spell I have ever felt I would have to ban (were I to use Frostburn). 3D6 Dex damage, no save at level 3 is broken, broken, broken (and it being a touch spell does not make it less so). However, it would seem both you and your GM do know this, so why he has not banned it baffles me. At least in this regard, he is completely justified in his commentary. Seriously, you didn't think that a level 5 character being able to solo a great wyrm was a sign of bad game design? And that using such an obviously broken spell wasn't going to cause problems?
Sinfire Titan 02-17-08, 02:41 PM	Step 1: Get the Hedge Trimmers... What? It is on topic, after all.
LordTarmos 02-17-08, 02:57 PM	Question: How do I fix my dm Answer: His only problem is your group, fix that by finding him a new group. I played like you guys do now (when I was 12) You guys are a bunch of immature idiots that go around causing as much havoc as you possibly can and as such will never get into any real story or true adventure (and if you do manage to it will derail in 2 sessions max) No wonder he did not want to dm your group he new that this would only end in disaster. A Dm spends a alot of time setting up his campaign for the week for you to just come in and destroy all of his hard work. you should concentrate less on how to change your dm and more on changing the other players.
Legdiwena 02-17-08, 04:08 PM	A vet while more expensive, will do a cleaner job than the hedge trimmers. But, seriously have someone else DM and try to behave like normal (though normalcy can be considered abnormal, meh) people.
BattleaxeField 02-17-08, 04:17 PM	I don't know how you can call a DM on his fifth campaign "inexperienced," unless they were very short campaigns. When he calls your characters broken, he's referring to two things. First, you're playing extremely undisciplined, haphazard, hyperactive characters who suddenly become optimized when combat rolls around. Second, did you ever wonder why the books include so many choices that are, as you put it, underpowered? So the lifelong D&D fans who become writers and designers have something to bait the stupid newbies with, so they can have a laugh at their expense? No, it's because they know a character's limitations are what makes it interesting and fun to play in the long term, especially if the limits add flavor. Your elementalist is the best-designed character in your group. The symptoms are obvious to an outsider. Your group has overdosed on powergaming. Like a heroin addict who needs more and more drug to get a fix, you've reached the limits of the excitement a more powerful character can give you. So, you seek more stimulus by intentionally creating extreme characters, starting fights, and doing things just to see what will happen. That sort of play is extremely frustrating for a DM, as you are constantly raising the bar on what is stimulating enough, and demanding that he be responsible for your excitement fix. And you've got your newbie Jim thinking that's the way the game is normally played, and instead of teaching him a better way, you're brushing him off. Your elementalist has the right idea. He took a limitation and made it interesting. Let me guess, the player is reasonably intelligent, has a solid grasp of the rules, but stubbornly refuses your optimization suggestions, has fun anyway, and you can't figure out why? The best way to get over your addiction? Weaken your characters to make them more challenging to play. Save your overpowered characters for the occasional gladiator match. The best way to help your DM? Make sure he has a game he can play in. My D&D DM plays in the Star Wars game I GM for, and it works out quite well for both of us.
Pfisiar 02-17-08, 04:20 PM	I don't know how you can call a DM on his fifth campaign "inexperienced," unless they were very short campaigns. When he calls your characters broken, he's referring to two things. First, you're playing extremely undisciplined, haphazard, hyperactive characters who suddenly become optimized when combat rolls around. Second, did you ever wonder why the books include so many choices that are, as you put it, underpowered? So the lifelong D&D fans who become writers and designers have something to bait the stupid newbies with, so they can have a laugh at their expense? No, it's because they know a character's limitations are what makes it interesting and fun to play in the long term, especially if the limits add flavor. Your elementalist is the best-designed character in your group. The symptoms are obvious to an outsider. Your group has overdosed on powergaming. Like a heroin addict who needs more and more drug to get a fix, you've reached the limits of the excitement a more powerful character can give you. So, you seek more stimulus by intentionally creating extreme characters, starting fights, and doing things just to see what will happen. That sort of play is extremely frustrating for a DM, as you are constantly raising the bar on what is stimulating enough, and demanding that he be responsible for your excitement fix. And you've got your newbie Jim thinking that's the way the game is normally played, and instead of teaching him a better way, you're brushing him off. Your elementalist has the right idea. He took a limitation and made it interesting. Let me guess, the player is reasonably intelligent, has a solid grasp of the rules, but stubbornly refuses your optimization suggestions, has fun anyway, and you can't figure out why? The best way to get over your addiction? Weaken your characters to make them more challenging to play. Save your overpowered characters for the occasional gladiator match. The best way to help your DM? Make sure he has a game he can play in. My D&D DM plays in the Star Wars game I GM for, and it works out quite well for both of us. That's not powergaming. Powergaming is entirely natural and within confines of RP. All characters will seek to make themselves better at what they do. (The interesting ones at any rate.) This is an example of drunken, hyperactive-toddler gaming, which is definitely not the same thing as powergaming.
TheGreatSanguini 02-17-08, 04:21 PM	I don't figure Muffin will live much longer in the campaign. He dies every campaign relatively quickly, and unsurprisingly there's an underwhelming amount of support to ressurrect him. However, all of his characters are similar - they're all really dumb and random. He'll either be playing Tasslehoff Burrfoot, his halfling barbarian, or Rogar Boweltooth, his Orc Paladin/Knight. Jim the Pirate, I have no idea what motivates him yet. I've known the man for about a week now, so I can't tell what way to handle him. Joe is used to being the party screwup. In the previous campaigns, he killed himself and one other member of the party every single session. EVERY SESSION. This wasn't out of spite or malice, this was out of ignorance. Every time. This is the best I've ever seen him play, because while he did relativley little, at least he didn't kill anybody. Sanguini is chaotic evil. And I forgot to mention in the first post that during the session, the DM informed me that I saw some ladies cheating in the arena. I followed them to their home, and killed them with a cloud of bewilderment that they couldn't escape from (and suffocated in) because they were indoors. Therefore, I don't figure I'm any better than the rest of the party. The reason that we didnt' get much done during the session is both because certain party members refused to just "skip a game day", saying that all we do is relax and train and pay for our rooms. That would've gotten us to actually be in an adventure during the session, as opposed to just trying to make the most of a dead day in which nothing was scheduled and there was no adventure to be had. Another reason is that the party split up as mentioned in the first post - meaning that two characters would get the spotlight while the rest get to do absolutley nothing. Our DM played last campaign, which was run by me. He was the only effective party member in that campaign - he ended up making it to level 5, whereas the rest of the party (both due to Joe Bob Joe, and themselves) kept dieing and losing levels, and were entirely unable to accomplish ANYTHING. The campaign disbanded when I told them "In this mission, you must use teamwork. If one of you manages to die during this, the campaign will end." The entire mission was just fighting 6 goblins in a cave, but Joe Bob Joe managed to effectively kill one of his party members by stepping over his unconcious companion's bleeding body, and then chugging the health potion he had in his hands, ready to use to save the poor lad's life. Thank you for your posts - I will be showing this thread to every player in the campaign, and we'll see what can get done. EDIT: Well, I be ninja'd. Your elementalist is the best-designed character in your group. ... Your elementalist has the right idea. He took a limitation and made it interesting. Let me guess, the player is reasonably intelligent, has a solid grasp of the rules, but stubbornly refuses your optimization suggestions, has fun anyway, and you can't figure out why? When he gets taken out by a level 3 NPC at level 5... No, he's not. In real life, yes, he's intelligent. But he didn't get any optimization suggestions from us, he didn't have fun anyways, and he doesn't have a solid grasp of the rules. You're wrong on basically every point you've made. The best way to help your DM? Make sure he has a game he can play in. My D&D DM plays in the Star Wars game I GM for, and it works out quite well for both of us. This is the one good piece of advice I could skim out. This is actually a really good idea, and were it not for my work schedule I'd have the time to run a campaign in the background. I will ask everyone else in the group if they'd like to run a campaign (I know flobby is interested in running a Star Wars Saga edition campaign). I disagree with pretty much everything else you've presented. I can understand leaving some weaknesses - for example, my character is weak against anything without a mind/stomach, like undead/constructs/plants/some magical beasts. But I disagree with some of your motives on that as well.
Pfisiar 02-17-08, 04:23 PM	I don't figure Muffin will live much longer in the campaign. He dies every campaign relatively quickly, and unsurprisingly there's an underwhelming amount of support to ressurrect him. However, all of his characters are similar - they're all really dumb and random. He'll either be playing Tasslehoff Burrfoot, his halfling barbarian, or Rogar Boweltooth, his Orc Paladin/Knight. Jim the Pirate, I have no idea what motivates him yet. I've known the man for about a week now, so I can't tell what way to handle him. Joe is used to being the party screwup. In the previous campaigns, he killed himself and one other member of the party every single session. EVERY SESSION. This wasn't out of spite or malice, this was out of ignorance. Every time. This is the best I've ever seen him play, because while he did relativley little, at least he didn't kill anybody. Sanguini is chaotic evil. And I forgot to mention in the first post that during the session, the DM informed me that I saw some ladies cheating in the arena. I followed them to their home, and killed them with a cloud of bewilderment that they couldn't escape from (and suffocated in) because they were indoors. Therefore, I don't figure I'm any better than the rest of the party. The reason that we didnt' get much done during the session is both because certain party members refused to just "skip a game day", saying that all we do is relax and train and pay for our rooms. That would've gotten us to actually be in an adventure during the session, as opposed to just trying to make the most of a dead day in which nothing was scheduled and there was no adventure to be had. Another reason is that the party split up as mentioned in the first post - meaning that two characters would get the spotlight while the rest get to do absolutley nothing. Our DM played last campaign, which was run by me. He was the only effective party member in that campaign - he ended up making it to level 5, whereas the rest of the party (both due to Joe Bob Joe, and themselves) kept dieing and losing levels, and were entirely unable to accomplish ANYTHING. The campaign disbanded when I told them "In this mission, you must use teamwork. If one of you manages to die during this, the campaign will end." The entire mission was just fighting 6 goblins in a cave, but Joe Bob Joe managed to effectively kill one of his party members by stepping over his unconcious companion's bleeding body, and then chugging the health potion he had in his hands, ready to use to save the poor lad's life. Thank you for your posts - I will be showing this thread to every player in the campaign, and we'll see what can get done. You can get a lot of accomplished in terms of RP by not "skipping a game day". However, these players sound horribly immature and combative towards each other. Again, the problem is with the players, not the DM really.
Legdiwena 02-17-08, 04:25 PM	He'll either be playing Tasslehoff Burrfoot, his halfling barbarian, or Rogar Boweltooth, his Orc Paladin/Knight. He made the kender into a barbarian?
Edymnion 02-17-08, 04:34 PM	He made the kender into a barbarian?Sounds more like the PLAYERS are kender to me...
Pfisiar 02-17-08, 04:38 PM	Sounds more like the PLAYERS are kender to me... :rofl: very nice.
TheGreatSanguini 02-17-08, 04:40 PM	Sounds more like the PLAYERS are kender to me... Sounds more like I've had enough of these condescending comments. Ironically it's rather childish of you to post like that. This is a note to everybody - if you're not going to add anything, then don't add. I think that I've handled this situation on the forums as maturely as possible given the circumstances, and I'm sick of people chipping in "you're stupid" remarks. At the very least Rood_Inverse DID add something afterwards, and I'm even thanking him for it. Enough is enough.
Legdiwena 02-17-08, 04:40 PM	And not the norma,l innoncent kender, either.
Anansi 02-17-08, 04:48 PM	Based on what you've written, I think your DM's biggest problem is burnout. As soon as it's feasible, I would suggest having someone else DM for a while. As yes, the antics of some of your players were immature, etc, etc. However, they were also extremely hilarious to read. The best idea I can come up with is having two campaigns on the go with your group, perhaps alternating between them on a weekly basis? If all else fails, use duct tape. That can fix anything.
memnochraphy 02-17-08, 04:56 PM	Our DM has run about four campaigns prior to this, so this isn't his first time dealing with us. You're DM has the patience of a saint.
Capfalcon 02-17-08, 05:06 PM	Sounds more like I've had enough of these condescending comments. Ironically it's rather childish of you to post like that. This is a note to everybody - if you're not going to add anything, then don't add. I think that I've handled this situation on the forums as maturely as possible given the circumstances, and I'm sick of people chipping in "you're stupid" remarks. At the very least Rood_Inverse DID add something afterwards, and I'm even thanking him for it. Enough is enough. Well... You have to admit they are pretty much right. 1) The DM as pointed out that he wants to play as a PC. Then, you make him DM. 2) The DM said that he thinks that he is forced to work too much at DMing. Then, you make him DM. 3) The characters act stupid, and he complains about it. Then, the characters continue to act stupid. I don't think it could be made much clearer. Either stop acting like morons or have someone else DM. Because the current DM apparently isn't having fun.
TheGreatSanguini 02-17-08, 05:35 PM	Thanks Anasi. As soon as I can, I'm going to contact Flobby to see if he will run that Star Wars campaign. Also, turns out he just made a thread too, in the "What's a DM to do?" section. Yes, he does have the patience of a saint. He is Ghandi reincarnated into the form of a 6' tall, broad white man. Well... You have to admit they are pretty much right. 1) The DM as pointed out that he wants to play as a PC. Then, you make him DM. 2) The DM said that he thinks that he is forced to work too much at DMing. Then, you make him DM. 3) The characters act stupid, and he complains about it. Then, the characters continue to act stupid. I don't think it could be made much clearer. Either stop acting like morons or have someone else DM. Because the current DM apparently isn't having fun. The ones that are right are the ones that comment on that, rather than adding things like "the players are kender". I can agree with the ones that actually think, and put something into their posts. We didn't make the DM the DM. We just ended up crushing his soul. At the very least you advised that we have somebody else DM - something that I've emailed flobby about.
Anansi 02-17-08, 05:45 PM	Also, turns out he just made a thread too, in the "What's a DM to do?" section. I am totally reading his thread.
Roivas 02-17-08, 06:08 PM	Sounds more like I've had enough of these condescending comments. Ironically it's rather childish of you to post like that. This is a note to everybody - if you're not going to add anything, then don't add. I think that I've handled this situation on the forums as maturely as possible given the circumstances, and I'm sick of people chipping in "you're stupid" remarks. At the very least Rood_Inverse DID add something afterwards, and I'm even thanking him for it. Enough is enough. Okay so you post your entire problem on the forums to ask other people's opinions and then tell them to shut up because we aren't telling you what you want to hear? Fine then I won't bother to point out the problems I see in the game but I will take the time to disassemble how massively rude and ignorant your last post was. Firstly no single post was directed as a specific attack on your, nor your play style. You asked our opinions on the game you currently play in and got our genuine responses. Its your option to get tetchy because you're being told the players are the problem. If you don't want to hear other people's opinions, or even their slightly divergent moments of humor [such as claiming the players are all kenders, obviously simply a joke meant to lighten the mood] then don't post. Or since you have already posted simply don't read the thread. Next time you don't want advice don't ask for it. Secondly, the only reason people continually are beating you over the head with immaturity comments is because you seem unwilling to admit you may in fact be wrong. With every comment directed at how stupid the characters are or when we side with the GM or the lone player willing to play a real character you simply jump down the person's throat telling them they've misunderstood the situation because of some terminal brain cancer. Again see my first point, as people reading the information you've posted are likely to come to the conclusion that the one player who the GM didn't have a problem with might eb the one worth running a game for. Third and finally, I will directly tell you that though it is a bit hypocritical of me to say this as I just got done berating you for the same, don't bother responding to my post. I honestly couldn't care less if you even read this. I wanted to just make the point out of my own desire to claim that players often forget how much work a GM has to do to make a decent game and that a player merely needs to open a book to make a decent character. Whatever your response to my claims I really don't care for two reason. One, you most likely will interpret my post as a personal attack which it is not despite of my numerous digs at your play style I am trying to be helpful. And two I sincerely doubt that I will be reading this particular thread a second time. If you really really want to rebuttal send me a well thought out properly spell-checked message and I will listen to your argument, but I am done reading you rant on how your GM is so terrible because he gets angry at you for wasting game time killing commoners for no reason and generally making fluffy bunny characters with no personalities apart from how "Wacky" they are. Its threads like this that make me grateful for the players I have even if they do occasionally do incredibly stupid things. At least they don't actively try to break my campaigns.
adgramaine 02-17-08, 06:15 PM	"And now, for something completely different" - Honestly, I'd love to run a game with characters like this! But then again, I enjoy a healthy dose of Tick-esque humor. Maybe your DM needs to watch the live-action Tick episodes so he can get in the right frame of mind? Or have him read the Another Fine Myth series, by Robert Asprin. Those are entirely silly in the first few books of the series. Only much later (book 10 or so) does the party start "maturing". In the series, the least powerful character winds up as "party leader". Seriously, not all fantasy has to be taken seriously. I mean, seriously...
Pfisiar 02-17-08, 06:17 PM	"And now, for something completely different" - Honestly, I'd love to run a game with characters like this! But then again, I enjoy a healthy dose of Tick-esque humor. Maybe your DM needs to watch the live-action Tick episodes so he can get in the right frame of mind? Or have him read the Another Fine Myth series, by Robert Asprin. Those are entirely silly in the first few books of the series. Only much later (book 10 or so) does the party start "maturing". In the series, the least powerful character winds up as "party leader". Seriously, not all fantasy has to be taken seriously. I mean, seriously... Comic is one thing. This is running around smashing crap because you can.
TheGreatSanguini 02-17-08, 07:07 PM	Okay so you post your entire problem on the forums to ask other people's opinions and then tell them to shut up because we aren't telling you what you want to hear? Fine then I won't bother to point out the problems I see in the game but I will take the time to disassemble how massively rude and ignorant your last post was. Firstly no single post was directed as a specific attack on your, nor your play style. I ask for people's help in the most polite way that is possible. I then get rude responses, that involve no help. If you think my post was unwarranted, you clearly didn't read the preceeding comments, nor my post in it's entirety. It may have been rude, but entirely justified. For example: This is an example of drunken, hyperactive-toddler gaming, which is definitely not the same thing as powergaming. You guys are a bunch of immature idiots... Sounds more like the PLAYERS are kender to me... You don't consider any of these as attacks? If that's the case, I have no idea how you found fault with ANYTHING that I've written. I even took the lumps, as long as I got advice with it. I made that post to ensure that I WOULD at least get something with it. Unfortunately, you've just proven that it didn't work. I have admitted I was wrong, I have admitted that I'm a bad player. I've decided to post this whole freakin' thread to help out my DM and see what I could do to help him feel better. One, you most likely will interpret my post as a personal attack which it is not despite of my numerous digs at your play style I am trying to be helpful. Yeah. Of course - how could it possibly be an attack, when it simply incorporates no useful information and multiple insults? When you say that you're "done reading [my] rant on how [my] GM is so terrible because he gets angry at [me]" and that's not even close to the topic? Either you didn't realize that the post to which you responded directly stated not to make something like this, or you just didn't care and decided to make yourself look like an ass anyways. And saying not to respond to your post is a display of massive arrogance, just to make sure you know. It's a shame that you decided to berate me as rude and ignorant, with such a rude and ignorant post. At least you said you won't be reading this thread again - So either you won't post, or you'll make yourself a liar. In either case you won't be able to be taken seriously.
adgramaine 02-17-08, 07:31 PM	Comic is one thing. This is running around smashing crap because you can. ...and that sums it up, right there. Despite my levity in my prior post, the above sentiment illustrates the point finely: players and DMs simply need to communicate what they desire within the context of the game. Without communication proper, all we have is chaos. Granted, some of us enjoy being amidst the flotsam of the chaotic sea but not everyone does. A few short words of intent before any given session can alleviate the situation before things get out of hand. If the DM wants things handled seriously, then he has an obligation to point out thing like character names that might detract from his intended thematic schemes. If the players want a dash of silly with their heaping of the absurd, they simply need to warn the DM ahead of time... Just remember it's a game, and everyone has a right to enjoy themselves at the table.
TheGreatSanguini 02-17-08, 08:55 PM	And you have the grammar of a barbarian who decided those 2 skill points just weren't worth wasting. And I don't understand why one-line crap like that is important. There's no reason to just flame somebody like that, especially over a minor problem with their english. Please, any HELP is appreciated. If you're not going to help, then please just think twice about posting. I don't want this being a warzone, even though it's halfway there.
jage 02-17-08, 10:24 PM	And I don't understand why one-line crap like that is important. Because it's fricken funny dude. And true. Please delete my post as it has nothing HELPful to add. Sorry.
Drackthor 02-17-08, 10:33 PM	And I don't understand why one-line crap like that is important. There's no reason to just flame somebody like that, especially over a minor problem with their english. Please, any HELP is appreciated. If you're not going to help, then please just think twice about posting. I don't want this being a warzone, even though it's halfway there. If you (the general you, not you specifically) are going to insult someone, you have given others permission to do the same, and you've paid them to do it if you make grammatical errors WHILE insulting someone else. Consider, for example, how someone will find a grammar or spelling error in this very post. ;)
Loftower 02-17-08, 11:36 PM	I posted to the DM thread first. Here’s the player side: You need to make a contract with the DM about what you want to play. If he wants to run a campaign full of fugitives from The Home For The Permanently Bewildered, that’s OK. From what I have read, he does not. That means you may not play those characters in his game. In his place, I would not even listen to any requests to the contrary. Once the complete group (players and DM) has agreed to a campaign style, it should be relatively simple for the DM to create adventures for you. Your responsibility is to maintain your side of the agreement. If you agree to play a heroic campaign (for example), then you must play a heroic PC and be ready to take the “save the day” quests. If you decide on a group criminal campaign, then you need to be ready to take on Thieves’ Guild quests and such (and not make a Paladin).
FarSouth 02-17-08, 11:52 PM	I also posted on the Dm thread. In essence: Make a fresh start Agree to party roles before making up your new characters Stick with core only No evil characters Don't make your characters jokes Work together
danielinthewolvesden 02-18-08, 12:34 AM	I don't figure Muffin will live much longer in the campaign. He dies every campaign relatively quickly, and unsurprisingly there's an underwhelming amount of support to ressurrect him. However, all of his characters are similar - they're all really dumb and random. Joe is used to being the party screwup. In the previous campaigns, he killed himself and one other member of the party every single session. EVERY SESSION. This wasn't out of spite or malice, this was out of ignorance. Sanguini is chaotic evil. "Steve, stop playing stupid PCs please. No more. Next time, we'll not accept them into the group and then leave them behind." "Steve #2, you have to stop making stupid decisions that get other folks killed. You may not care aboust your PC's, but others do. Stop it." And, did you roll YOUR alignment up randomly or have it fored on you by the DM?:rolleyes: I think not. Several of you have CHOSEN to play a disruptive PC, and you wonder why the DM is getting tired of it.
WizO_Zanton 02-18-08, 12:43 AM	The constructive potential of this thread is exhausted.