How do I get a DM to allow templates [Archive] - Wizards Community

How do I get a DM to allow templates [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Battousai727
10-23-06, 03:30 PM Im trying to get my DM to let me become a werewolf (via bitten by werewolf Lord). He knows i like the character concept, but seems dead set on not letting me do it. When i ask him about it, he says they are all dead, but that has nothing to do with his created world, its just him shutting me down. He says they are overpowered (specifically werewolf lord), but they are in the monster manual and do have a decent amount of downfalls.
My second choice is vampire, but that wont fly with him either. Should i remake the templates so they are powered down? Any helpful hint on convincing him? Or should i just forget about it?
trapspringer
10-23-06, 03:38 PM As a DM it makes things very complicated because suddenly the character in question is very difficult to hurt with anything other than magic, and it is difficult to reconcile the fact that suddenly everyone is carrying silver around. As a DM you can't just turn a player into a were wolf, it has to occupy a significant portion of the campaign focus.

On top of that, slapping a +4 ECL on a character in the party will completely destroy game balance for three levels. If you have already rolled up the character and are mid-campaign, you better just cool your jets on the whole lycanthrope thing.

Also, werewolves are evil. Always. You will have to make will saves, and the moment you vouluntarily shape shift you become evil with no save.

Now, a were fox, were cat, or other low-HD, non-aligned animal with a bite attack would be far more practicle.

Personally I like a lycanthropic character, I think they're great. You just can't drum one up mid game, though. It takes some significant planning.
bobberry109
10-23-06, 04:11 PM I side with your DM on this being bitten by a werewolf or vampire to get oodles of extra power in game is going to be nothing but a headache. If you want to be something like this see if your dm will let you start a new char ask first don't retire your current PC and assume he will let you.

If your DM isn't happy to let you retire and start with dog boy, then you either suck it up, find a new game, or see if you can take a turn in the hotseat, and then you can use all the fun template monsters you want to.
Wood
10-23-06, 04:12 PM Personally I like a lycanthropic character, I think they're great. You just can't drum one up mid game, though. It takes some significant planning.

I'd get on board with that sentiment. I've run several campaigns with pcs of the were or vampire type but they started out that way. Every time Ive had a character become infected with lycanthropy or get turned into a blood sucker in the midst of an ongoing campaign it has been a disaster. I'm not even realy sure why exactly, it just always seems to work out that way.

Probably the worst example that I can think of was a samurai character of mine that contracted vampirism during gameplay. It was a nightmare. And yes Im sure youll all say "well just go to the local cleric and get fixed up", but the problem with that is once you take on the template you become evil, you like drinking blood and draining levels, you dont want to be "cured", and the most readily available food is the other party members.

If I were you, and I really had my heart set on this character Id ask your DM if he'd reconsider if you were to start a new character with a good back story that fit within the current campaign storyline.
kelvinaw273
10-23-06, 04:33 PM D&D Vampires and werewolves do not make for good player characters unless all the player characters are templated in some (similar) way.

As said above, it's a massive boost to your ECL, so (a) you become overpowered for the nest three level rises and (b) you aren't going to gain any hit points for that period and (c) there is an involuntary alignment change.

I have a suggestion: Is what you want a real foaming-at-the-mouth immune to non-silver weapons lycanthrope, or do you just want the power to become a wolf?

If the latter, I suggest coming up with a five-level prestige class that culminates in a full shape-change ability. Call it 'were-touched shifter' or something and run it by your DM. You could do it like this:

Pre-req: Descended from or bitten by full lycanthrope without catching lycanthropy.

4+Int skills per level (skills as ranger)
d8 hit dice

Level 1 - Track ability, Enhanced senses (+2 to Spot, Listen, Survival)
Level 2 - Shift 1/day to gain +2 to Strength, Dex & Con
Level 3 - Scent ability, Shift 2/day, gain bite attack
Level 4 - Low-light vision, Shift 3/day, gain claw attack
Level 5 - Full shapechange to wolf (uses one of your shift usages).

What you don't gain is DR, contagious lycanthropy or other supernatural effects. When you Shift you look a lot more wolf-like, but don't actually become a wolf. Shifting lasts 1 minute per level, unless you do full shapechange which requires a Shift use but lasts as long as you want.
trapspringer
10-23-06, 04:49 PM I've done something like that for a player once. It's a really effective solution if the player in question is just after the animalistic qualities of lycantrhopy. Wizard's has even done some things like that. You could look into the savage progression for lycanthropes, available on the main web page (run a search).
Battousai727
10-23-06, 05:05 PM the idea of creating a new character is something i would have never thought of. The Prestige Class thing is a good solution too, but since im a level 5 Hexblade/1 Fighter/3 Created caster Prestige, i dont think adding another class is a good choice; its something to keep in mind for the future though. I do understand the DM's position, it does unbalance the game.

One other question: Does being bitten by a werewolf lord make you more powerful? Its makes sense it should. Would u get a dire wolf's stats instead?
Wood
10-23-06, 05:30 PM One other question: Does being bitten by a werewolf lord make you more powerful? Its makes sense it should. Would u get a dire wolf's stats instead?

:thinks:

Imagine the power you could get from being bitten by a vampiric werewolf demilich. you should wish for that the next time you pull the moon card.

Im not sure whether or not you would be more or less powerful. To be honest about it- usually what results from a werewolfs bite is death. Lesson no.1 grasshopper: no amount of stat bumps and uber templates are a substitute for having good tactics and using your head. Stop worrying about being as tough as you can be and focus more on being as smart as you can be.
UltimateReality
10-23-06, 05:33 PM I can't help you with the vampire, except to direct you to the Monstrous Classes in Libris Mortis.

The easiest way to get a werewolf-like character, though, is to play a race called Shifter fromthe Eberron Campaign Setting. (It's also in Races of eberron.) They're a race of creatures descended from lycanthropes, have 0 LA, and not required to be evil.
Battousai727
10-23-06, 05:56 PM The topic of the moon card gives me an idea: would any type of wish spell work? :cool:
lint trap
10-23-06, 06:10 PM The reason your DM isn't allowing templates is because of the templates you're choosing. A vampire is (the last time I checked) a +8 LA template; that's way too much to handle. And a +3 LA coupled with involuntary shapechanging is an even greater headache. It can be done, but you have to ease into it.

Try the half-vampire template from LM. It's just a +1 LA, it has good flavor, and no game-breaking limitations (alignment, sunlight, etc.). Or the Shifter race from Eberron. True, they're not as powerful, but I'm assuming you're going for an interesting character idea rather than a mechanics powerhouse.

And if you are just gunning for the stat boosts and special abilities, kudos to your DM.
Battousai727
10-23-06, 06:27 PM Power isnt the main thing im going for. The concept is what im aiming for. If any has seen the movie Underworld, thats why i really want a werewolf or at least a vampire template. (A hybrid would be cool, but now im talking crazy:) ) Im looking at the half Vampire thing, and that might be a good idea.
Gurslak
10-23-06, 07:54 PM I'm afraid i'm going to have to stand with your dm on this one, one of my players had a lycanthrope in a recent campaign and it's a real pain in the rear end. They are way more powerful than the +3 lvl adjustment suggests and make scaling encounters a nightmare.
To inflict some meaningful damage on one, without having every bandit in the world carrying silver, you have to beef up the encounters. This inevitably leads to the other characters getting floored by said opponents.

Unfortunately while it is a cool concept it leads to imbalance in the party and a huge headache for the DM.
PhaedrusXY
10-23-06, 08:23 PM Go find a Werewolf: The Apocalypse or Vampire: The Masquerade game. I'm not joking, or being sarcastic. I've played both. If you like that kind of stuff, those games are probably more to your liking.
calvinNhobbes
10-23-06, 09:52 PM Check out savage progressions links at wizards. Here's one for the werewolf.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a
Imban
10-24-06, 02:28 AM In my opinion, lycanthropes are not more powerful than the +2/3 LA would suggest because they also have to take racial HD, which puts the total levels dedicated to it at around 4-9. I think they're fair as players if you keep the racial HD issue in mind - DR 10/silver isn't all that much once you're past level 5 or so.

Vampires are MUCH LESS powerful than the +8 LA would indicate and make utterly lousy PCs. Sure, they can't die to most things, but they can't really contribute to the party much, so that kinda feels like a booby prize. There are a few attempts to create more playable D&D vampires, although I can't recommend any right now.

And yes, if you're bitten by the Werewolf Lord in the Monster Manual, yes, you would become a Dire Werewolf, since that's what he is.
Battousai727
10-24-06, 07:33 AM A question on the progression. Do i get the original bonuses plus those listed each level? Or do i just start out with the +3 LA and continue with the chart?

As for vampire, i think they are weak for a +8. If u compare it to werewolf lord, its way under in terms of raw stregnth.

I talked to my DM, and he wont even really go for half vampire, which was mentioned above. He fears other will want a template too (which isnt a big deal if it +2 and not overpowered IMO) This was my solution:

I suggested that earn two levels, but dont actually level up (which means no class abilities, save, base attack, but if a feat or stat upgrade comes up, id get that because its universal) After i get those two levels, i can take the Half Vampire template. Does this seem a fair way of doing it?
tharivol266
10-24-06, 09:39 AM when you take a savage progression the LA goes away because its taken care of in the class levels. however i think you should stop trying. if your dm hasnt given in yet its not likely he will and you are just ******* him off. let it go and bring it up next character creation time with the savage progression.

ps stop trying to be a clone
HermitIX
10-26-06, 07:21 PM As a rule I tend to abort any character concept that contain a movie reference.

As practically every one else has told you. Slapping a template on to your character mid game is a bad idea. If you are willing to start a new character you may want to look at the Shifter (Eberon) or the Tibbet (dragon compendium) both races have heavy were overtones with out the head aches.

Oh and for the record, it’s not a good idea to try to make your DM do anything. Next thing you know we will get some guy on here posting about his annoying player who won’t stop bugging him about adding templates.
Neutronium_Dragon
10-26-06, 10:25 PM You may want to look at the simple lycanthrope template presented in Curse of the Moon ( http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/005COTM/ ). It's an LA +1 or +0 which is designed such that it integrates into a normal party without creating all of the complications that the MM versions of the template do.
crossp
10-27-06, 02:29 AM If you honestly just want the flavor, ask your DM if you could get bitten and simply change your race to shifter from eberron. Then you can just SAY you're a werewolf without being overpowered. Then take some feats that will make you more werewolfy. I think Races of Eberron has tons of feats for shifters.

Maybe you could use this mysterious caster class you have to research a spell that turns you into a werewolf for so many rounds. Wizards has been making spells like this to replace polymorph lately. Look at those for inspiration

Or you could give up on the idea. Everyone's right. It really does reek of fanboyism.
Dag
10-27-06, 02:49 PM Your poor DM. Sounds like you are pestering him repeatedly about this concept thing and he repeatedly tells you "no."
Get it through your head, he doesn't want you or the rest of the party adding templates willy nilly because you have a fixation on some awful movie. As someone else mentioned go play Vampire or Werewolf, the games that terrible movie was based on. Let him run his D&D game as he sees fit without your constant need to cheez up your character and his game. Accept his denial as final - If you cant live with a typical character than get out of that game and spare your DM the hassle you bring to the table.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Battousai727 10-23-06, 03:30 PM	Im trying to get my DM to let me become a werewolf (via bitten by werewolf Lord). He knows i like the character concept, but seems dead set on not letting me do it. When i ask him about it, he says they are all dead, but that has nothing to do with his created world, its just him shutting me down. He says they are overpowered (specifically werewolf lord), but they are in the monster manual and do have a decent amount of downfalls. My second choice is vampire, but that wont fly with him either. Should i remake the templates so they are powered down? Any helpful hint on convincing him? Or should i just forget about it?
trapspringer 10-23-06, 03:38 PM	As a DM it makes things very complicated because suddenly the character in question is very difficult to hurt with anything other than magic, and it is difficult to reconcile the fact that suddenly everyone is carrying silver around. As a DM you can't just turn a player into a were wolf, it has to occupy a significant portion of the campaign focus. On top of that, slapping a +4 ECL on a character in the party will completely destroy game balance for three levels. If you have already rolled up the character and are mid-campaign, you better just cool your jets on the whole lycanthrope thing. Also, werewolves are evil. Always. You will have to make will saves, and the moment you vouluntarily shape shift you become evil with no save. Now, a were fox, were cat, or other low-HD, non-aligned animal with a bite attack would be far more practicle. Personally I like a lycanthropic character, I think they're great. You just can't drum one up mid game, though. It takes some significant planning.
bobberry109 10-23-06, 04:11 PM	I side with your DM on this being bitten by a werewolf or vampire to get oodles of extra power in game is going to be nothing but a headache. If you want to be something like this see if your dm will let you start a new char ask first don't retire your current PC and assume he will let you. If your DM isn't happy to let you retire and start with dog boy, then you either suck it up, find a new game, or see if you can take a turn in the hotseat, and then you can use all the fun template monsters you want to.
Wood 10-23-06, 04:12 PM	Personally I like a lycanthropic character, I think they're great. You just can't drum one up mid game, though. It takes some significant planning. I'd get on board with that sentiment. I've run several campaigns with pcs of the were or vampire type but they started out that way. Every time Ive had a character become infected with lycanthropy or get turned into a blood sucker in the midst of an ongoing campaign it has been a disaster. I'm not even realy sure why exactly, it just always seems to work out that way. Probably the worst example that I can think of was a samurai character of mine that contracted vampirism during gameplay. It was a nightmare. And yes Im sure youll all say "well just go to the local cleric and get fixed up", but the problem with that is once you take on the template you become evil, you like drinking blood and draining levels, you dont want to be "cured", and the most readily available food is the other party members. If I were you, and I really had my heart set on this character Id ask your DM if he'd reconsider if you were to start a new character with a good back story that fit within the current campaign storyline.
kelvinaw273 10-23-06, 04:33 PM	D&D Vampires and werewolves do not make for good player characters unless all the player characters are templated in some (similar) way. As said above, it's a massive boost to your ECL, so (a) you become overpowered for the nest three level rises and (b) you aren't going to gain any hit points for that period and (c) there is an involuntary alignment change. I have a suggestion: Is what you want a real foaming-at-the-mouth immune to non-silver weapons lycanthrope, or do you just want the power to become a wolf? If the latter, I suggest coming up with a five-level prestige class that culminates in a full shape-change ability. Call it 'were-touched shifter' or something and run it by your DM. You could do it like this: Pre-req: Descended from or bitten by full lycanthrope without catching lycanthropy. 4+Int skills per level (skills as ranger) d8 hit dice Level 1 - Track ability, Enhanced senses (+2 to Spot, Listen, Survival) Level 2 - Shift 1/day to gain +2 to Strength, Dex & Con Level 3 - Scent ability, Shift 2/day, gain bite attack Level 4 - Low-light vision, Shift 3/day, gain claw attack Level 5 - Full shapechange to wolf (uses one of your shift usages). What you don't gain is DR, contagious lycanthropy or other supernatural effects. When you Shift you look a lot more wolf-like, but don't actually become a wolf. Shifting lasts 1 minute per level, unless you do full shapechange which requires a Shift use but lasts as long as you want.
trapspringer 10-23-06, 04:49 PM	I've done something like that for a player once. It's a really effective solution if the player in question is just after the animalistic qualities of lycantrhopy. Wizard's has even done some things like that. You could look into the savage progression for lycanthropes, available on the main web page (run a search).
Battousai727 10-23-06, 05:05 PM	the idea of creating a new character is something i would have never thought of. The Prestige Class thing is a good solution too, but since im a level 5 Hexblade/1 Fighter/3 Created caster Prestige, i dont think adding another class is a good choice; its something to keep in mind for the future though. I do understand the DM's position, it does unbalance the game. One other question: Does being bitten by a werewolf lord make you more powerful? Its makes sense it should. Would u get a dire wolf's stats instead?
Wood 10-23-06, 05:30 PM	One other question: Does being bitten by a werewolf lord make you more powerful? Its makes sense it should. Would u get a dire wolf's stats instead? :thinks: Imagine the power you could get from being bitten by a vampiric werewolf demilich. you should wish for that the next time you pull the moon card. Im not sure whether or not you would be more or less powerful. To be honest about it- usually what results from a werewolfs bite is death. Lesson no.1 grasshopper: no amount of stat bumps and uber templates are a substitute for having good tactics and using your head. Stop worrying about being as tough as you can be and focus more on being as smart as you can be.
UltimateReality 10-23-06, 05:33 PM	I can't help you with the vampire, except to direct you to the Monstrous Classes in Libris Mortis. The easiest way to get a werewolf-like character, though, is to play a race called Shifter fromthe Eberron Campaign Setting. (It's also in Races of eberron.) They're a race of creatures descended from lycanthropes, have 0 LA, and not required to be evil.
Battousai727 10-23-06, 05:56 PM	The topic of the moon card gives me an idea: would any type of wish spell work? :cool:
lint trap 10-23-06, 06:10 PM	The reason your DM isn't allowing templates is because of the templates you're choosing. A vampire is (the last time I checked) a +8 LA template; that's way too much to handle. And a +3 LA coupled with involuntary shapechanging is an even greater headache. It can be done, but you have to ease into it. Try the half-vampire template from LM. It's just a +1 LA, it has good flavor, and no game-breaking limitations (alignment, sunlight, etc.). Or the Shifter race from Eberron. True, they're not as powerful, but I'm assuming you're going for an interesting character idea rather than a mechanics powerhouse. And if you are just gunning for the stat boosts and special abilities, kudos to your DM.
Battousai727 10-23-06, 06:27 PM	Power isnt the main thing im going for. The concept is what im aiming for. If any has seen the movie Underworld, thats why i really want a werewolf or at least a vampire template. (A hybrid would be cool, but now im talking crazy:) ) Im looking at the half Vampire thing, and that might be a good idea.
Gurslak 10-23-06, 07:54 PM	I'm afraid i'm going to have to stand with your dm on this one, one of my players had a lycanthrope in a recent campaign and it's a real pain in the rear end. They are way more powerful than the +3 lvl adjustment suggests and make scaling encounters a nightmare. To inflict some meaningful damage on one, without having every bandit in the world carrying silver, you have to beef up the encounters. This inevitably leads to the other characters getting floored by said opponents. Unfortunately while it is a cool concept it leads to imbalance in the party and a huge headache for the DM.
PhaedrusXY 10-23-06, 08:23 PM	Go find a Werewolf: The Apocalypse or Vampire: The Masquerade game. I'm not joking, or being sarcastic. I've played both. If you like that kind of stuff, those games are probably more to your liking.
calvinNhobbes 10-23-06, 09:52 PM	Check out savage progressions links at wizards. Here's one for the werewolf. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a
Imban 10-24-06, 02:28 AM	In my opinion, lycanthropes are not more powerful than the +2/3 LA would suggest because they also have to take racial HD, which puts the total levels dedicated to it at around 4-9. I think they're fair as players if you keep the racial HD issue in mind - DR 10/silver isn't all that much once you're past level 5 or so. Vampires are MUCH LESS powerful than the +8 LA would indicate and make utterly lousy PCs. Sure, they can't die to most things, but they can't really contribute to the party much, so that kinda feels like a booby prize. There are a few attempts to create more playable D&D vampires, although I can't recommend any right now. And yes, if you're bitten by the Werewolf Lord in the Monster Manual, yes, you would become a Dire Werewolf, since that's what he is.
Battousai727 10-24-06, 07:33 AM	A question on the progression. Do i get the original bonuses plus those listed each level? Or do i just start out with the +3 LA and continue with the chart? As for vampire, i think they are weak for a +8. If u compare it to werewolf lord, its way under in terms of raw stregnth. I talked to my DM, and he wont even really go for half vampire, which was mentioned above. He fears other will want a template too (which isnt a big deal if it +2 and not overpowered IMO) This was my solution: I suggested that earn two levels, but dont actually level up (which means no class abilities, save, base attack, but if a feat or stat upgrade comes up, id get that because its universal) After i get those two levels, i can take the Half Vampire template. Does this seem a fair way of doing it?
tharivol266 10-24-06, 09:39 AM	when you take a savage progression the LA goes away because its taken care of in the class levels. however i think you should stop trying. if your dm hasnt given in yet its not likely he will and you are just ******* him off. let it go and bring it up next character creation time with the savage progression. ps stop trying to be a clone
HermitIX 10-26-06, 07:21 PM	As a rule I tend to abort any character concept that contain a movie reference. As practically every one else has told you. Slapping a template on to your character mid game is a bad idea. If you are willing to start a new character you may want to look at the Shifter (Eberon) or the Tibbet (dragon compendium) both races have heavy were overtones with out the head aches. Oh and for the record, it’s not a good idea to try to make your DM do anything. Next thing you know we will get some guy on here posting about his annoying player who won’t stop bugging him about adding templates.
Neutronium_Dragon 10-26-06, 10:25 PM	You may want to look at the simple lycanthrope template presented in Curse of the Moon ( http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/005COTM/ ). It's an LA +1 or +0 which is designed such that it integrates into a normal party without creating all of the complications that the MM versions of the template do.
crossp 10-27-06, 02:29 AM	If you honestly just want the flavor, ask your DM if you could get bitten and simply change your race to shifter from eberron. Then you can just SAY you're a werewolf without being overpowered. Then take some feats that will make you more werewolfy. I think Races of Eberron has tons of feats for shifters. Maybe you could use this mysterious caster class you have to research a spell that turns you into a werewolf for so many rounds. Wizards has been making spells like this to replace polymorph lately. Look at those for inspiration Or you could give up on the idea. Everyone's right. It really does reek of fanboyism.
Dag 10-27-06, 02:49 PM	Your poor DM. Sounds like you are pestering him repeatedly about this concept thing and he repeatedly tells you "no." Get it through your head, he doesn't want you or the rest of the party adding templates willy nilly because you have a fixation on some awful movie. As someone else mentioned go play Vampire or Werewolf, the games that terrible movie was based on. Let him run his D&D game as he sees fit without your constant need to cheez up your character and his game. Accept his denial as final - If you cant live with a typical character than get out of that game and spare your DM the hassle you bring to the table.