Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nill 07-25-06, 10:37 AM	If someone could help me with this problem, I would be very grateful. First, a little background check. I am a LN Fighter20-Psion20(gestalt)/Herald of Power(homebrewn PrC that me and my DM worked together on)20. Before anyone comments on this, I would like to add that I use the Fighter with the things from the Fighter discussion 2.0 This might sound like a stupid question, but my DM has made me and my group enter Avernus and, seeing as how we are more or less the strongest mortals (which is why he made us go down there and fight Outsiders), being somewhere along the lines of 55+, we managed to defeat Bel... Now, this would not be so bad if it werenīt for the fact that, by doing this, we somehow managed to free Zariel from her prison... Appearently, she is incredible grateful for that... In fact, a little too much so. She seems to have it set for herself that she needs a new general... A loyal one. Appearently, she figures that there is no one more loyal than someone who is her consort. So, she decided that she would take the one who would best serve her. Incidently, that seems to be me. So, right now, we are in the first layer of Hell, with itīs Lord reinstated and hellbent on making sure I become her cohort. My question is this: what do I do now? I mean, as long as there is no war she is involved in, she has agreed to let me go wherever I want. And it would be pretty good to have a contact with that power. However, Iīm not really sure what would happen if I agree to this... It appears she will have to fight for her title, and I really donīt want to **** of Asmodeus by causing to much chaos in Hell. If anyone wonders, me and my group are at the point where we are fighting some of Disī soldiers. He doesnīt seem to like the idea of Zariel becoming a Lord once again... And this war only seems to strengthen her resolve to make sure I become her cohort... Is there any way I can win this without ******* off Asmodeus? I mean, I like the idea of getting this kind of power (political only. There will be no summonings of Devils as soon as I get into trouble. If that would have happened, I would have to give up that character, and I really like him. As far as I understand this, the IC explentaion for this is that she needs every ounce of power to keep control of her layer, so she canīt send me any help.) Another, unrelated question: can LE love? I mean, is it possible for a Lord of the Nine to feel something like that? Also, for every day I am not out fighting, she is trying to make me sign a contract that says I will never betray her. Also, because of some house rule that was added, for every day, she gets some kind of bonus to her DC to make me sign. Once again, is there really anyway to get out of this without ******* of Asmodeus(repetitive, isnīt it?)? I mean, I think I can do something about the other ones, but not him. Furthermore, if my DM is reading this, I want to thank him for a great RP session. I donīt mind this, really, itīs just I have a hard time figuring out how a LN character would react. Well, that and Iīm scared to death by Asmodeus.
green_yawgmoth 07-25-06, 11:09 AM	Go for it, dude. Demon/devil chicks are fun. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/smileys/mario.gif Just sign the contract and don't betray her, what's so hard about that? Unless you want to betray her, in which I must quote the old addage "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned". You'd be scorning a woman from hell. Ponder that. ;) As for your "can LE love" question, of course they can! Why the hell couldn't they? That's like asking "is LG allowed to have fun?" In fact, having a devil, an archdevil no less, actually love you would be an awesome boon; she'd go to a lot of legths to make sure you don't die, and if you do, that it goes avenged a millionfold. With the added bonus of going to Baator and being remade into a pit fiend or better immediately. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Toloran 07-25-06, 11:18 AM	I'm not sure how to help you (in the long run) but for the short term I do have this advice: Try joining her WITHOUT signing the contract. Say something along the lines of "My love for you is so deep, a contract would be superfulous. My heart is already signed over to you." Or some such like that. If she asks why you delayed for so long, say something along the lines of "I just didn't realize it until now." If it works, you suddenly get what amounts to a stay of excecution. :D As to the "Can a LE love" question: Of course, alignment has nothing to do with it. All alignment would change is how she goes about it. A lawful evil would be the controling one of the relationship (which would doubtless be the case because of her power alone), however she would never abandon you (and would go at great lengths to avenge you and bring you back to life). The Lawful side of her makes it so she is devoted to you and you alone (assuming she isn't lying which she probably isn't). A chaotic person would love you for now, but once they find someone they like better they'll switch to that person. The Evil side mostly means you are going to be in for a little "rough love." ;) Don't worry though, her evil will MOSTLY manifest itself against others. :D
Nill 07-25-06, 11:29 AM	Yeah, but for her to remain an archdevil, I will have to fight against who knows how many. Well, I will probably have my party with me (IC reason for this: we all swore that we would never abandon one another, and weīre all Lawful. OOC reason: Iīm going to help my Rouge18-Ninja18 (gestalt)/Assassin24 friend that I would help him get Fierna and my Knight25-ex-paladin10/Blackguard20 would get to go with one of Glasyaīs Erinyesī). And does anyone of you know if Asmodeus would care all that much if she gets reinstated? I mean, that would prove that she was better, right? And that would mean she was more suited to be a Lord of the Nine at the same time, wouldnīt it? Iīm pretty sure I can handle all the other ones of the Lords that would attack her (carefully...very carefully...), but if Asmodeus were to interfere... Would it be possible to make him accept her somehow? Maybe by attacking some demons in the Blood War? Or maybe destroying some Eladrin?
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-25-06, 11:51 AM	So... you're basically triple epic... and you're shaking in your boots over the mere potential of Asmodeus' wrath.... riiiight. Get your tail out from between your legs, kick Asmodeus' front door in and give him a taste of the back of your hand. If he gives you any lip, kill him. Seriously, by the time you're that powerful not much can stand in your way, lords of hell included. You're probably scared of nothing. If Asmodeus is actually juiced up enough to provide any threat, sounds like you're in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation anyway, so you might as well go out in a show of guts. Either way, quit with the cowering and get your character on with his life, or death as the case may be.
Nill 07-25-06, 12:03 PM	Triple epic fighting against the DF version of Asmodeus who can change his realm however he wants and have an army of Nessian Pit Fiends at his beck and call. Add to the fact that he is, in effect, waayy above anything else we will ever face with his DvR. Also...do you really think I want to go up against the Overlord after that? Besides, if you didnīt notice, my character is Lawful Neutral, and killing Asmodeus would almost guarantee the spread of Chaos. Really, that is not something my character wants to do. Iīd much prefer to roleplay these things instead. At least when it comes to meeting the Avatar of Evil Law.
Dolo 07-25-06, 02:12 PM	If it was me I would make certain to go over the contract, then find high ranking Devil who isn't connected to her and have it over the contract. THEN find ANOTHER expert who isnt a Devil at all and check it one more time. After that I would have it checked for hidden paragraphs, secret text anything else my mind could come up with. Then I would sign it, cause she may love you but be certain that if the push comes to the shove she will throw you overboard if the power and the price is truly right. It also shows you are not just some Rube, blinded by love, that you care enough to cover your butt...while declaring your love to her in blood of course :D .
Nill 07-25-06, 03:12 PM	Interesting idea. I think I will try that one. Wish me luck.
albinomonkeyking 07-25-06, 03:36 PM	Well, I don't know what the DF version of Asmodeus is but I do know you could kick the crap out of some gods, but, let us ponder other matters. Do you have the Book of Vile Darkness available? It is incredibly helpful in the society and understanding of the 9 layers. Asmodeus rules over the layers but there is a ruler of each layer for a reason. Unless Zariel possesses some massive threat to Asmodeus's reign, (and if a group of lvl 60ish characters doesn't I'm not sure how in the hell she will) he shouldn't give a damn. Afterall, look at Mephistopheles, he openly hates Asmodeus and has told him he will someday kill him and take his throne. If he is going to be allowed to be a ruler, (it could be argued Asmodeus could not dethrone him without upsetting the balance) then he should not mind a newcomer. He would most likely begin plots to pull her to his side should he need her as an ally, but he should not openly oppose or dislike her anymore than the other lords. Now, she was the ruler of the First, but Bel betrayed her, if she returned to dethrone him she may upset the Dark Eight, who are loyal to Asmodeus, but (I haven't read that much up on her) if she had any loyalties, or if other lords like perhaps Mephistopheles want her in power then Asmodeus may simply have to deal with it. The other lords would perhaps want her in power knowing that Bel worked for Asmodeus as a spy of his. As for Asmodeus declaring war or something of the ilk, it seems unlikely. He could trigger another Reckoning doing something like that. If he wants her replaced he would probably send assassins or emply some method that could not be traced to him, he is afterall a lord of manipulations and deceit. I suppose it also matters why in the hell you are in...hell. You may want to ally yourself with her if you need some friends there, then again, she has just regained her position and is probably still weak, having some lvl 60 adventures to keep her in power while she recovers could be a good idea. If your ultimate goal is not to dethrone Asmodeus then I'm not sure why you are there. To dethrone one of the others? It would help to know, because dethroning Asmodeus would not upset the balance if he were to be replaced. (And unless you plan it very carefully there will be a war) More than anything Asmodeus should be ****** that a bunch of adventures rolled up into hell and started slapping around arch-devils. You should be far more worried about what he is going to do to you than to her.
green_yawgmoth 07-25-06, 04:22 PM	The DF version of Asmodeus is roughly CR 85. He's a greater deity when in his own realm (the 9th level), and has powers suited to such a cosmic entity, including but not limited to Salient Divine Abilities and epic spellcasting. As for angering Asmodeus by helping her become the new Lord of the 1st, I don't think he'd really care. All Bel wanted to do was fight in the Blood War, so as long as her goals aren't "overthrow everyone and enstate a new order in the pit with my new epic buddies", you and yours should be fine. Just make a couple Archdevil alliances, and her/your position in Baator will be set. Especially if your ninja friend gets with Fierna; instant ally! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Nill 07-25-06, 04:47 PM	albinomonkeyking: The reason we entered Hell was to beat back a Bel led attack that was meant to give him the advantage against the other Lords, so they really didnīt mind that we attacked him. However, Meph. and his group, the oneīs she opposed in the Reckoning, arenīt to happy with the fact that one of their old enemies are back in control, so now they are trying to do something before Asmodeus decides that she is doing a better job at being a lord than Bel. Thus, when the next session begins, we will beat back Dispaters devils, then I will report to Zariel and ask, nicely, to see that contract and have it read and checked by everyone who owes us something (there are very many who does that, to put it mildly) and, if it is agreeable, I will sign it, thus making me her cohort and completely joing her against Mephs group. After that, my ninja friend will go, with a couple of gelugons and such as body guards and ask Fierna about an alliance, while me and my other friend (the Knight one) goes around and battles with every other devil that hasnīt joined us, which will be Dispater and Meph. plus the one trapped in the ice... And that Night Hag one. Then, as we will begin to succeed, my ninja friend will get a better and betterposition to bargain with Fierna of an alliance. Then, Fierna and her father will join us in a Zariel-led alliance, designed to keep everyone involved stay on their throne. That way, we can force Dispater to give up, unless he wants to be attacked from two directions. Then, there wonīt be any real alliance against us to speak of, because everyone else that would fight us either hates each other or doesnīt really care about what happens, as long as they can keep in power. At least, this is what is supposed to happen if nothing goes wrong. green_yawgmoth: So, what would you suggest attacking to prove that we donīt want to go against him? What would you suggest we do?
kelvinaw273 07-25-06, 06:59 PM	Superintelligent devils have been fighting like this for literally eons. In what way are your characters going to change the balance of power significantly? I mean you've let her out of imprisonment, but really that's it. The rest of your plans are good in theory, but I think you may be over-simplifying things and no battle plan (even a political one) ever survives contact with the enemy. Myself, I'd get out of dodge and leave them too it.
Dag 07-26-06, 03:09 AM	I just thought of an awesome way to help you, but it could only be pulled off by a character with 61 levels. Since you only have 60 I can't help you.
Solian 07-26-06, 07:30 AM	I would say that LE can love, where ANYWHERE does it say that love is a good emotion? Love might be caring for other people, but why wouldnt LE care for their own? if their captain of a ship, they would care for their crew, because if they died, they would not have anybody to rely on. Maybe it's the same deal with your character, maybe she only loves you as long as she can use you?
Nill 07-26-06, 11:13 AM	I just thought of an awesome way to help you, but it could only be pulled off by a character with 61 levels. Since you only have 60 I can't help you. Oh great... People here complain about non-epic players wanting to be able to do anything. Then, when you ARE epic, they start to mock you about actually wanting to do something interesting that will effect the whole Prime Material Plane? What is up with that? What? You want everything to be like it has always been? No mortal ever doing anything that matters on the whole? Is that it? Seriously, what is so bad about wanting to do something important when you are epic?
Richmud 07-26-06, 11:25 AM	Its important to keep in mind Asmodeous is a bit unpreditable. Always remember this is the entity who reinstated the archdevils that tried to dethrone and removed the loyal one from his position. Its actually quite possible that by not helping Zariel you will be ticking off Asmodeous mor then by helping her
green_yawgmoth 07-26-06, 12:09 PM	green_yawgmoth: So, what would you suggest attacking to prove that we donīt want to go against him? What would you suggest we do? Who to attack: Not Asmodeus. :P What to do: Seems like you've got a pretty good plan already. Just follow through with it. If Asmodeus gets involved, just make it known to him (and keep it to him, if possible) that you're just trying to prevent another all-out war between the lords. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
faranja 07-26-06, 12:53 PM	I would say that LE can love, where ANYWHERE does it say that love is a good emotion? Love might be caring for other people, but why wouldnt LE care for their own? if their captain of a ship, they would care for their crew, because if they died, they would not have anybody to rely on. Maybe it's the same deal with your character, maybe she only loves you as long as she can use you? As in: You know that love can hurt, and I love you very much.
Nill 07-26-06, 02:00 PM	Superintelligent devils have been fighting like this for literally eons. In what way are your characters going to change the balance of power significantly? I mean you've let her out of imprisonment, but really that's it. The rest of your plans are good in theory, but I think you may be over-simplifying things and no battle plan (even a political one) ever survives contact with the enemy. Well, there is also the fact that before, there was no Dark Eight when they fought each other openly. Of course, we have every intention of getting the Lord of the Seventh, Baalzebul, to join us by offering him to keep Mephistoteles in check, which is probably something he would love to do, due to the hate he feels for him. Then, if everything goes according to plan, we will, together with Baalzebul, Fierna and her father plus Zariel work together to, for one thing, keep Meph. far from doing anything against Asmodeus (hoperfully, he will like that) and also to strengthen Zariels position as a Lord, while, at the same time, make sure that Baalzebul is always looked over and all information sent directly to Asmodeus, together with an explanation of what it is we are doing to keep Meph. well away from even having time to think about the Throne. Following this conflict, which we will win (I hope), our Knight will offer to acquire an Erinyes from Glasya so Nessus can keep on the look out in a more practical sense to make sure Zariel is not going to betray him. This way, we will have made sure that Zariel has allies with two Lords and Asmodeus. We were talking about this last night, my group and I.
albinomonkeyking 07-26-06, 03:34 PM	That was a lot of information at once so hopefully I don't fudge any details, but here goes. If that is your goal then yes, by all means you want her as an ally. If your characters know about arch-devils though, then you should be very, very careful in your dealings with them and make sure you have most angles covered, after all, they are devils, if they can stab you in the back to make a profit from it they will. Also try to remember these guys have been the biggest baddest things around for awhile, they may be upset that adventurers like yourself are trying to get them to do anything. Just some things you should keep in mind when negotiating. (I wouldn't exactly turn my back to any of them) As for the love aspect, I think evil can fall in love. If you have any histories of Asmodeus he is the one who put Levistus into his icy prison. The reason being he could not turn Asmodeus's consort against him, so he killed the devil Bensozia (Asmodeus's consort) and gained himself the ninth lords wrath. It seems Asmodeus is keen on the revenge deal, freezing people in ice or turning them into giant disgusting slugs that trail feces. I would say that if the all powerful lord of the ninth can feel love then evil certainly can.