Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Synthesized_Dream 01-20-04, 09:39 PM	Hi, My DM is an ass. First, he says we cant have any special creatures, then all off a sudden he says we can have them. So everyone else in our group gets whatever they want, which was mostly genasi's and minotaurs, so i picked a drow. Biggest mistake of my life. He gets into this long speech on how about drows have a +2 level adjustment and that they are immune to magic,(his player-character just so happens to be a spell chunker)so I ask him if I find a way to fix this I can get the drow. He agreed, so now this is where I need all of your help. Please send me stuff on how to modify the drow.
Heron_Marked_Blade 01-20-04, 09:59 PM	First of all, Drow aren't immune to magic. They have spell resistance = to 11 + class level. Not immune. A Minotaur is a +2 LA. If your DM allows minotaurs as a character race, he's not being fair to disallow drow as a character race.
Glide 01-20-04, 10:12 PM	Looks like a power struggle to me.. Just the fact that you used the term "spell chunker". I know I have said this more times then the abyss has layers....but D&D is not a game to discover who can create the "mostest powerfullest char in the world"! I say you throw them all off when you introduce your standard human into the mix. Not only do you have an actually level advantage on them, but you will be far ahead of them on the feat tree. Not stong enough you say? To bland? Well with the strange party you seem to be assembeling, you will be the norm amoung the unormal. Making you the only unique one...funny how that works out huh? Oh, and perhaps your DM would not be such an "ass" if he actually read some of the books? Don't gloat, the same goes for you. If your DM makes a claim that seems a little outlandish, look it up in the books, and quiteley and politley disprove him/her. When the DM begins to see that you are right 9/10 times. Then the tables will turn. And if you really want to balance things out a bit, insist that the DM stop using a PC. A power hungry DM with poor understanding of the game can ruin the best campaign with his "super character". Glide Glide.
Nom 01-20-04, 11:09 PM	Other thing to remember: A minotaur is Large and comes with 6 levels of monstrous humanoid (MM 3.5, pg 189). So a brand new minotaur with a single class level (lets pick rogue, for agument's sake) is a multiclass monstrous humanoid 6 / rogue 1 with character level 7 whose XP (only) is figured as if it were character level 9. Level adjustments only affect ECL which only affect XP calculations. Note that monstrous humanoid levels don't count for multiclass XP penalties (just ignore them when calculating class balance). A Drow is a medium humanoid and only has class levels (even if just a single level of commoner). Taking the same example of a single rogue level, your drow would be a rogue 1 with character level 1 and an ECL of 3 (ie figure all XP as if 3rd level). Summary: the drow doesn't need modification if the LA rules are used correctly. But notice that a level 1 minotaur is considered balanced with a level 7 drow is considered balanced (for campaign purposes) with a level 9 typical character. As a side comment, I'd note that minotaurs are "usually chaotic evil", and drow "usually neutral evil". A party of chaotic evil characters generally has the same calming effect as a flamethrower in a petrol station, unless there is one member strong enough to say "we do this my way or I beat you all into a pulp". That's not to say CEs are stupid, just that their philosophy on life is to look out for #1, and take vindictive pleasure in putting down anyone who might get in their way. You (plural) might want to consider an alignment shift for the characters if the party is to stay together. Finally, I'd agree with the DM-PC comments. It's fine for the DM to add an NPC or retainer to make up for a party weakness, but if the DM would have a problem killing off the character to further a plot or barracks for that character over the PCs then there is clearly a problem.
FineasBoggs 01-21-04, 03:32 AM	Your DM must have been smoking something when he allowed a minotaur and not a drow. Someone needs to go to DM school and learn a little more about ECL and Monstrous Hit Dice. The minotaurs ECL level adjustment is + frelling 8 Man!!! The drow +2???? And the drow is overpowered???? Feel free to send a link to this thread to your DM's email address. http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/manshoon_mage_sigil.gif
Faeryl Zauvirr 01-21-04, 06:45 AM	Originally posted by Synthesized_Dream Hi, My DM is an ass. Wow...with an entrance like that you have made many friends. In my opinion, your DM is against your drow because he has sided with the majority of people who think they are cliched. He may of had a bad experience with them but I doubt it. By reading the boards your DM has picked up the idea that everybody is playing drow and therefore they are not good. (or they have lost their originality) His campaign seems to be based on originality, so make an original drow. Play a draegloth, a Drow Bard who likes to sing about Dwarves (who wouldn't?), or anything else that makes no sense.
Thorak 01-21-04, 11:03 AM	DMs don't have PCs. By definition, anything played by the DM is an NPC. Because it's not played by a player. Now, any DM that needs to supplement a group with an NPC to get them to survive, throughout the whole adventure, isn't doing his job right, he's making the adventures too hard. He should run a quick jaunt for some experience and goodies, and then continue his plot sans the DM-PC and with the newly-boosted PCs. If you're tossing a brief side adventure the party could need help with, then that's a separate issue, but if it's a whole-campaign thing, you're doing it wrong. Basically, any DM that has a "PC" is either a power-loving arse, and anything you might be able to do better than his precious will be shot down, or he's not able to properly understand how to run a campaign for the PCs levels, and needs to save their butts constantly. In this case, and in pretty much every other, it's the former. Any DM who plays a PC should be raked over hot coals. Or at least kindly informed by his players (if the group switches DMs every campaign) that if he has a PC while he's also DM, he doesn't get a PC for the next adventure when he isn't DM.
Big Dawg 01-21-04, 01:33 PM	Tell your DM to learn what ECL means, before he allows Monster PC's. Let me see if i can explain it so you can understand and tell him. ECL (Effective Character Level) is the sum of one's Level Adjustment + its Racial Hit Dice + Class Levels. Humaniods with 1 hit die can switch this hit die out for any class level. The reason for this is because a 1HD humaniod's hit die is already from a class level. It is from a level in the warrior class which can be found in the DMG. As a player, if you elect to play one of these races then you don't have to take your first level as a warrior. You can take it as a Rogue or Cleric or what ever. That's why you can switch them. Just make sure you change the saves, base attack, skills... you can only do this for humaniods with 1HD because their Hit die is not from their race but from their class level!!! ------------------------------- A minataur is LA+2, and has 6 Racial HD, and add 1 class level (lets say fighter)...the sum is 9. That means that a 1st level minataur fighter is equal to a 9th level human fighter. A drow has a LA+2, and zero racial HD. Remember the HD comes from the warrior class level not from the drows race. So LA+2 added to the 1 class level is 3. A 1st level drow fighter is equal to a 3rd level human fighter. A 1st level minataur fighter = 7th level drow fighter= 9th level human fighter. get it? BTW, On changeing the Drow, there is no need. You can play a half Drow. (No level adjustment on this) It the same thing as a half elf except change the low light vision to darkvision 60' (full drow have 120' which is gold if you use it right) no light blindness and No Spell resistence. IMO: you shouldn't settle for a half drow if your DM is allowing a minataur. hope that helps.
Synthesized_Dream 01-21-04, 05:18 PM	thanks guys for all your help on this pressing situation. All i need now is some rules for drow and half drow. If you have any, please e-mail them to me or im me on AIM.
paolung 01-21-04, 06:41 PM	Any DM who plays a PC should be raked over hot coals. so why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel there, Thorak? no no, don't hold back... really let it out. you can't keep things in like this, come on... say what you're really feeling! :D
Baator the dark 01-21-04, 07:13 PM	A party of chaotic evil characters generally has the same calming effect as a flamethrower in a petrol station I need to use this that is an excellent analogy Well as the DM of a player that has an obsession with playing drow characters that happen to be CG and wield dual scimitars I can certainly see where the cliche comes from. However just because one player does this (I dont let him use these characters of course) doesnt mean that I disallow them as a race. Second of all a drow character can also make a very good party spokesman as it seems that drow have a finger in every pie in the under dark (a +2 Cha doesnt hurt either).
Thorak 01-21-04, 08:52 PM	Originally posted by paolung so why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel there, Thorak? no no, don't hold back... really let it out. you can't keep things in like this, come on... say what you're really feeling! :D Okay, after they're raked over the hot coals, they should be flayed alive. And then their skin stitched back on. With the hot coals on the INSIDE. Then, since after this treatment they will be BEGGING for death, we treat their wounds to insure they in fact will NOT die (yet), and while we're at it make sure the water we're using to cleanse the filth is plenty salty. Then, once we're done with all that, we see how many red-hot needles we can stick in them before they scream. Loud enough to bring up an organ. Finally, we should take their DM-PC sheets, bronze them, forge them into arrowheads, and use their mangled corpses for target practice. Unless, of course, our stabbity urges get the better of us early on, in which case we just clean up the blood. And insure that once we start talking to real people again, we stop talking in 1st person plural. Or, y'know, just tell the guy he's an ass and you're not playing with him any more. Your call really. But I personally swing more towards the coals, myself.
paolung 01-21-04, 08:54 PM	you sure you didn't write the Book of Vile Darkness? ;) :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:
Gandilas 01-22-04, 01:00 AM	I think its obvious. You should make a half drow/half minotaur...
celloshane 01-22-04, 02:27 AM	Okay, so as far as I can tell your DM's major problem is with the spell resistance. The +2 LA shouldn't be a factor if he's allowing Minotaurs. Also the fact that he apparently doesn't like Drow, but that's beside the point. I would suggest this; agree to eliminate Drow SR, but also insist on lowering the LA to +1. In my opinion the SR is easily worth half the level adjustment. Do it that way, and you still have some perks. You could also try leaving the LA where it is and eliminating the SR , but I would ask for something in return. My personal suggestion for that would be; eliminate Light Blindness, add Levitate and Spider Climb to spell like abilities (noble drow are known to have such abilities) and increase Darkness to Deeper Darkness. I'd also probably ask for a weapon proficiency of choice. Your other option would be to try and lower the SR. I wouldn't do that personally, but try it if you need to.
Nom 01-22-04, 02:31 AM	Originally posted by Synthesized_Dream thanks guys for all your help on this pressing situation. All i need now is some rules for drow and half drow. If you have any, please e-mail them to me or im me on AIM.Drow stats and rules are in the MM, under Elf (since they are an elf sub-race). Minotaur stats are in the MM, under Minotaur. In each of those entries, there is a sub-section titled "Monster-name as characters". This gives complete stats for how to create a PC-style character based on that race. Anything without an "Monster-name as characters" is considered unplayable as a PC race. The existance of the entry means the designers consider the race semi-playable (see DMG 3.5, pg 172). FWIW, Minotaur and Drow are both listed as "Easy" monsters, meaning "this is generally workable if it fits with your campaign world".
FineasBoggs 01-22-04, 03:23 AM	Don't modify the darn drow at all. Your DM needs to be slapped!!! http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/manshoon_mage_sigil.gif