Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paladin2004 01-18-05, 07:33 PM	How do I play a cleric who isn't just a healing wand? I know this has probably come up many a times but please help! It feels like, why play a cleric when you can play a druid who get loads more cool special powers and cooler spells! and with permenent iron wood can have good armour to, please help me!! ty all
Draco Strang 01-18-05, 07:51 PM	Well, not every cleric has to be dedicated to the ultimate good and prosperity of the universe. *Ahem.....PELOR* If you play a cleric of say, Olidamarra, you could always be looking to use your powers to confuse and trick, all for the greater amusement. Of course, when your party gets hit with the pain stick, you can heal up, but try to have a personality outside of first aid medic.
Thorak 01-18-05, 08:38 PM	Regardless of your character's alignment, nothing says you have to be a patsy, or do everything in your power to benefit others at the cost of your own safety. Even a LG cleric of Pelor can tell his injured party members to be more careful in combat, as you need to focus Pelor's gifts on more important matters than merely closing the wounds they heedlessly gain. You won't let them die, but you're not necessarily going to feel any need to heal them beyond the bare minimum needed to keep them alive and conscious. Maybe being hurt will teach them to be a bit more cautious next time. Better yet, don't play a Good, or even a Lawful character. I'm not saying be CE, but a Neutral cleric could easily tell his companions to go stuff themselves when they demand healing, and feel no real guilt at not doing his best to help them where possible. And if they keep bugging you, ensure that you use all your spells on buffs and such you use up quickly, especially the higher-level spells. Hard to heal when you've already cast all your spells, and as long as they were to the benefit of the party, they've got no reason to complain about being injured beyond their own stupidity.
Marros 01-18-05, 08:40 PM	And even if you are a Cleric of Pelor, his domains are pretty damn good. With Strengnth and Sun, you can go medievil what with the Fire Storms, the Sun Beams, Sun Bursts, Righteous Might, and other fun spells. Carry a wand so you don't waste any Fire Storms to cure your party. Or, Clerics of Obad-Hai get access to the four elemental domains. All of them have neato domain spells for you to get.
Kalanth 01-18-05, 08:51 PM	You be creative with your casting, and embellish in the characters best attributes. Being a tank with a cleric is, sometimes, even easier than it can be with a Fighter or Barbarian. Don't even bother preparing the healing spells at all, just remember that you can spontaniously cast them when you need to. There is so much potential to a cleric that it is not funny, and the class is the most powerful of all classes and has been since 1st ed. You buff, and prepare for combat, you wear heavy armor, and have some attack spells prepared as well. Don't hang back, charge forward, get into the fight, but make sure you have Combat Casting and a large number of ranks in concentration. If this is not the style you want, there are ways to build a cleric to resemble a rogue (much tougher but possible) or they can be the deadliest archer in all of D&D. A cleric can out do a paladin with ease, and can go toe to toe with any sorc. or wizard anyday. I always feel so bad when I hear the question you asked, because it means that the young ones have not put in the time or effort to research the class to its fullest potential. Leave the healing wand role to the paladin, make yourself out to be the tank of the party (nothing wrong with a cleric with Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave).
ShadowDragon8685 01-18-05, 08:56 PM	The easiest way not to be a Mobile Wand of Cure Wounds is to be a FREAKING ASS-KICKER NOBODY will say "Heal me, you lazy git" to the Cleric who raises his arms to the sky, shouting "PREPARE TO BECOME ONE WITH ETERNITY!" as he raises his Heavy Flail (Yes, Good Clerics can wield these nasty instriments of pain,) becomes twice his size and strong, and proceeds to wipe the floor with that BBEG.
krichaiushii 01-18-05, 10:34 PM	Play a cleric that is neutral instead of good, then pick the spontaneous casting of inflict spells instead of cure spells. If they want healing, tell them they must stoically withstand the pain until the next day, when you can pray for healing spells. Refuse to keep more than a SMALL selection of healing spells memorized (though scrolls are alright). Strongly consider not taking Craft Wands as a feat. Otherwise, the peer pressure to make wands of bandages will be intense. Just a thought.
PhaedrusXY 01-18-05, 10:56 PM	I play an elven cleric of the elven deity of outcasts, scapegoats, and wild elves. He has a charisma of 7, and an extreme hairlip that leaves most of the teeth on one side of his face exposed permanently. (See the Tainted Sorcerer picture in UA). He wears a scarf (or muffler, whatever, I don't remember the word) over his face most of the time, to cover it up. He is an archer, and I took all archery feats instead of any "caster" feats. His Dex is higher than his Wisdom. He was picked on and scorned by the other elven children in his village when growing up, and as a result is shy and comes off as somewhat grim and standoffish in his dealings with others. He is a loner in the extreme, and spends most of his time wandering in the wild places of the world, alone. But he is really a nice guy (chaotic neutral alignment), and is lonely and would love to have friends he could depend on, and that could overlook his gruesome appearance. He's just reluctant to trust anyone, since he's been treated so badly in the past. He met up with the current party he's with when he noticed some remote villages that he sometimes buys supplies in had been destroyed, and went to the temple in a nearby larger town to report it. The temple asked him to accompany some other adventurers in the area to investigate what might have destroyed them. How's that for a "different" kind of cleric? In appearance, you'd probably take him more for a ranger than cleric, since he wears light armor and uses a bow. He's also not the happy, friendly guy who goes around healing others and preaching to them about the goodness of his god.
Kulthos 01-19-05, 01:08 AM	Play a half-orc barbarian/cleric with the strength domain. Strength is the ultimate combat stat, so worship it and destroy your enemies. Nothing says "Die infidel dogs" like a rightous-mighted, divine powered, raging cleric with power attack, cleave, and a greatsword. Also, you ca drop out of rage any time you want if you need to heal other people.
D_Martin 01-19-05, 01:24 AM	You don't! Every cleric for the most part is going to be the healing wand. That is what they do! Yes ...they are decent 2nd line attackers. Yes ...they have a lot of spells that can be cast as well. But, the bottom line for just about every Cleric is to be able to heal the party. Especially at the lower levels(1-4ish). IMO, you embrace it. That is certainly not your stereotype Clr. Does he channel positive or negative energy? If the latter, since he is CN you really don't have to be the wand. Tell everyone in the group that your PC is not here to heal you all the time until you really need it(Like when you drop). They will figure it out. Play your PC as the more self-centered, guarded PC that he is. Use you spells more for offensive purposes: Hold Persons, Commands, Bless, Divine Favors, Buff spells, Sound Bursts, Spiritual weapons, and so on. Not sure what your level is, so I won't add anymore. But if you use you offensive spell power more, it might not be necessary to be the wand if played carefully. Other that that just get actual healing wands.
Aeromus 01-19-05, 01:32 AM	Worship Wee-Jas. Be Lawful Nuetral to your Faith. Choose to sacrifice for inflict spells and controlling the Undead to further carry on your Goddess' ethos. Never memorize healing spells. Inform the players..."Oh you're about to die? It must Wee-Jas' will."
Kalanth 01-19-05, 02:18 AM	Worship Wee-Jas. Be Lawful Nuetral to your Faith. Choose to sacrifice for inflict spells and controlling the Undead to further carry on your Goddess' ethos. Never memorize healing spells. Inform the players..."Oh you're about to die? It must Wee-Jas' will." A nice concept, but that feels a bit to Anti part for me. The most important thing to do when building a cleric, above all things, is actually read the spell descriptions of the spells THAT ARE NOT HEALING! This seems to be the most commonly overlooked thing in any build, and because clerics get healing spells, PCs tend to assume they are nothing but bandages. Call Lighting, a fun spell, from DLCS (but great for any cleric) is the spell Drown, and so many more. Attacking with a cleric is great, busting the enemy with your spells is (for some reason) unexpected and entertaining. Unless you are in my campaign, where clerics play a much larger role because I love them.
Solidcobra 01-19-05, 03:13 AM	Simple. Craft wands of healing, give them to the party rogue. tell him that it's henceforth HIS mission to heal. Then cast buffs on yourself and grin as the party tank deals a third of the damage you throw around. IF you get seriously wounded, heal yourself. Can we say "cheater of mystra"?
Sturmfeldt 01-19-05, 06:03 AM	The easiest way not to be a Mobile Wand of Cure Wounds is to be a FREAKING ASS-KICKER NOBODY will say "Heal me, you lazy git" to the Cleric who raises his arms to the sky, shouting "PREPARE TO BECOME ONE WITH ETERNITY!" as he raises his Heavy Flail (Yes, Good Clerics can wield these nasty instriments of pain,) becomes twice his size and strong, and proceeds to wipe the floor with that BBEG. Hehe exactly my approach with my current PC walking around in Forgotten Realms. I play a Dwarven Priest (going for straight 20 Lvls no PRCs) with a huge strength, constitution and ofcourse wisdom... I`m trying to avoid the stereotype "dwarven battlecharging priest" so i play him with lots of patience and no scottisch accent!! :rolleyes: Also i don`t heal partymembers when they have scratched their *sses. I use the heals primarily on myself and only on the others when they are on the point of dying. IMO not every cleric has to be the cure-me-and-shut-up-machine.... Hope this helps, clerics can be very cool allrounders able to take on everything!
Thorak 01-19-05, 06:51 AM	You don't! Every cleric for the most part is going to be the healing wand. That is what they do! Yes ...they are decent 2nd line attackers. Yes ...they have a lot of spells that can be cast as well. But, the bottom line for just about every Cleric is to be able to heal the party. Especially at the lower levels(1-4ish). IMO, you embrace it. This is precisely the attitude that's gotten him into this mess. Clerics are no more healers than Rangers are woodland scouts or Rogues are thieves and cutpurses. Just because a class can fill a role does not mean that every member of that class will fill that role, or that they're "weird" if they don't.
TheUnknownZombie 01-19-05, 08:19 AM	Dunno what pantheon you're playing with, but try playing a cleric so self-obsessed that the thought of using his precious spells to merely heal his comrades wouldn't even occur to him. He doesn't have to be evil, just vain and self-important. Just because you can spontaneously cast cure spells, doesn't mean you have to.
CzarGarrett 01-19-05, 09:16 AM	I'm going to go with the idea of being Good so you can spontaneously cast healing, but take 2 domains that lead you more towards buffs and combat.
Ty 01-19-05, 09:56 AM	Something other than a medic. Priests have agendas, a/k/a finding new worshippers, advancing their sphere of interests, etc. Don't heal the fighter just because. Make sure that he's properly paying homage to your deity. If the rogue is being sneaky, and your god doesn't like sneaky, refuse to heal him for damage resulting from dishonorable actions. Priests aren't Ghandi or Mother Theresa. They are holy warriors to a certain extent. Play that angle up. The next priest I play is going to be a NG barbarian/cleric. Oh, and he worships Tyr, a god of lawfulness and goodness. He focuses on the just war concept rather than justice or law. Why is he a barbarian? He's a wee bit "touched" by Tyr. Think the Irishman from Braveheart. You're only a walking healing bag if you let yourself be. On the same token though, don't be a jerk about healing with a good party. If you don't want to share heals, be a bard. A cleric technically is there to patch up the group when the going get's rough. It doesn't mean you have to patch every nick and cut of every person every time damage happens.
Lord_Anthrax 01-19-05, 10:20 AM	Tell the other party members that if they want healing, they help pay for it. Split the cost of Cure Light Wounds Wands and carry them in bundles. Save your healing for out of combat unless absolutely necessary. Make good use of Inflict spells and load up on defensive/enhancement magic before battle. When your level gets up there, Flame Strikes are your buddy.
Bane 01-19-05, 10:21 AM	Play a LN cleric of Hextor. Spontaneously Inflict. Prepare maybe one healing spell of each spell level, or one healing spell for each party member. Make sure they know that they only get one healing spell per day. If they would like more than that, they can buy potions from you at market price, or they can buy scrolls from you at double market price, to represent the time you have to waste casting it on them when you could be beating things down with your flail. They will quickly start being more careful, especially after the first one dies because he already used his Cure spell for the day on something frivlolous. Note: try this only if you have decent skills at dodging thrown dice.
JimC 01-19-05, 10:39 AM	First off, to everyone who said "don't heal them" I say.. find a new party. Seriously, if the party is relying on you to heal them, and you don't, you have failed your party. In game, if you had the ability to save someones life and didn't you'd be looking for a new group. No player character I have ever created would a) let you into the group in the first place or b) keep you around if you lied to get in. For the first few levels the spells are more important. Once your passed that hump and wands/potions/hp's become more plentiful the need for you to be ready with that all important CLW will drop off. I find the best balance is to specialize in healing. This sounds counter productive at first. Its simple - the better you are at healing, the less healing you need to do. Take the healing domain, take splat book healing feats. When your CLW starts healing 15 damage on average and you have basically every high level slot free for whatever you'll thank me. The other obvious answers are: -Wands and scrolls in the hands of the bard, rogue, paladin, ranger and druid -Potions all around
EarthForce 01-19-05, 11:01 AM	You certainly don't have to play a healing wand. But definetly don't reject that so much that you refuse to heal. It's probably one of the clerics largest assets. Imagine how frustrating it must be to wittle down a difficult oppenents HP only to have him heal the damage again, and again, and agian... "The best offense is a good defense. The last one standing wins." But seriously, the cleric does have some offensive spells such as hold person. Consider this, you can use your spells in conjunction with your environement. "Shatter"(2nd lvl spell) isn't devestating, but would be fun to use on things such as support beams(Sonic damage) or just trashing some rooms in someone's home to leave a calling card. "Water breathing"(3rd level) would be great for sneaking around, hiding, etc. And at the minimum level to cast you still get 10 hours of breathing time. Combine that with the "freedom of movement" spell (4th level) and you have a cleric that leaps out from the depths to drag opponents into a watery grave (Where you likely have a large advantage because of the two mentioned spells). Heck, even "water walking" (3rd) combined with a "resist energy" (2nd) and/or "protection from energy" (3rd) could allow you to walk on very volitile surfaces such as pools of lava or acid with less rick to yourself.
philnicau 01-19-05, 07:26 PM	This is where playing Modern has given our group new insights into playing D&D we don't have a Cleric in our party, the closest is a dedicated hero with a Ring of First Aid (doubles effectiveness of First Aid) and Treat Injury. So players have to be more cautious because they know their isn't a Healer in every battle. Perhaps in your case you could have offended your God in some way, (refused to aid a beggar?) and as your punishment you can now only cast healing spells to save a persons life (they must be at 5HP or less), until you complete a quest, (raise enough money to build a hospice for the poor).
ck2001wendt 01-19-05, 09:04 PM	I find that as my parties develop, we rely very little on the cleric for minor healing (CLW, even CMW) and very heavily for major healing (Heal, ). That's because at a certain point no amount of healing provided by items is going to match Heal for dealing with Harm. You can buy a bunch of Heal scrolls, but in the long run it's just more cost efficient for everyone if you memorize Heal once or twice a day. Clerics are healers by nature. They are better at it than any other Core class. That's not all they have to do, but it's always going to be a trade off. A Cleric refusing to heal is just as pointless as a Wizard refusing to cast offensive spells. They're still dangerous, but they aren't doing the party nearly as much good as they could be. 1. Once you all get the Gold, demand your party buy a Wand of CLW out of the treasury, and give it to the party Bard or Rogue, another character class that shouldn't be in the front lines much. I find our Bard does most of the healing each day, with the Cleric picking up slack before we rest. 2. Be careful about you character concept at higher levels. Always make sure you have Revify (MiniHB), Heal, and Mass Heal memorized. It may be tempting to put in another buff spell, but it's not worth it if it means letting half your party die. 3. Think about Sacred Healing (Complete Divine). Lets you burn a Turn attempt for the equivalent of CLW, Mass. Good for in-between battles.
Razoreface 01-19-05, 09:16 PM	This is where playing Modern has given our group new insights into playing D&D we don't have a Cleric in our party, the closest is a dedicated hero with a Ring of First Aid (doubles effectiveness of First Aid) and Treat Injury. So players have to be more cautious because they know their isn't a Healer in every battle. Your group is teh winnar. I've done a bunch of Modern campaigns, and in each one where the magical advanced classes are an option, someone just freaking dives for Acolyte because they can't handle not having healing, to the point where they whine about it. D&D mentality makes a lot of people so dependent on clerical healing. To get around being a wand, go through your spells. Clerics have some pretty decent combative spells. Whip them off as fast as you can. Buff before fights, you can dump a ton of spells on getting your party stronger, and it's just that many spells you won't have for them to run back and beg for healing. Take metamagics to fill in gaps in spells that are useful for fights. Empower bull strength and things like that. Quicken banes and sound bursts, things like that. When your party starts running to you and finds you have less and less spells to commit to healing, they'll have to learn to rely on that less. And they won't be able to complain about it as long as you're still doing your best to contribute to the party's fighting ability.
silvertable81 01-19-05, 11:09 PM	Let's try the opposite route. Try making a Cleric who is nothing BUT the band-aid (tm). Start by worshipping Pelor, take the healing and Sun domains, then for feats, try Domain Focus, and (I don't remember the name of this feat, but it adds 2hp to every healing spell) At first level, your Cure Light will heal 1d8+5 hp. Once those feats are out of the way, max the Diplomacy skill, take the feat Improved Subdual. Never strike a foe. EVER. Try to talk every enemy into following the light, even in the heat of battle. Take the Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC, and try to get into Evangelist. See how the party enjoys having a "Portable Band-Aid (tm) around then. :P
Kalanth 01-20-05, 12:25 AM	The walking band aid, well, if you go that route then you might as well add the Vow of Peace and Non-Violence on top of it. Make the most of what you can, and therefore boost what you are able to do. Really, the diplomat of the group, as long as the group is willing to play with them, is one of the best characters you can have around. Just note that with all the divine spells, lack of Spell Failure, and heavy arms and armor, there just are so many more possibilities to the Cleric than any other class. Diversity is the spice of life.
happycows 01-20-05, 05:30 AM	Just because you're a cleric doesn't mean you heal. It's not like characters have a heal spell detection radar. Best thing to do is just say you're not that kind of cleric. You simply don't heal. How would they know that you are able to cast healing? You never pray for it and you don't use it so you're not lieing.
Lincoln Hills 01-20-05, 03:47 PM	First of all... does anybody in your party follow your deity? Make it very clear to the group that lip-service to your deity gives that character priority on your Healing Roster, and actual service to that deity (a paladin, fellow cleric or even a genuinely pious layman) gives him an even higher priority. "Let's see, last time we were in town, the rogue donated 1 cp to my deity's local temple - so HE gets first service." Don't attempt to 'persuade' characters to follow your god - any missionary will tell you that the fastest way to get people interested in your religion is to show how it'll benefit them here and now. ;) But that's still healing-oriented. My advice is to focus on your high Wisdom. Make arrangements with the DM, and spare a few ranks (how much Knowledge (religion) do you actually need?) for stuff like Sense Motive (super handy in any social situation!), Diplomacy (ditto), and hey - if you've got the proper domains for it - Bluff, Disguise, Knowledge (nature), etc. etc. If your party lacks a bard or loremaster, try to arrange it so that you are the 'guy who knows stuff'. Back that up with regular use of augury and the occasional divination. Some DMs hate to see those spells in use, up until they realize that the cleric is handing them a chance to tell the players "get a clue!" in character. And it'll make your cleric more useful than a string of CMWs. (Which is better - to have a number of wounds healed, or to discover the secret weakness/route which will keep you from taking those wounds? And as long as I'm asking riddles, here's an old one: if a tree falls in the forest and it hits a mime, does anybody care??)
DM_Newbie 01-20-05, 04:43 PM	huh, i always thought of the cleric as a mobile healing wand at least for levels 1-4, but as you've all said, they are much more. wearing +2 full plate and flame striking is a very powerful thing. high AC/spell damage is sweet. i have seen the light! lol thank you
Catwarrior333 01-20-05, 05:40 PM	DRUIDS ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :chicken: :OMG!
Guardinal 01-20-05, 09:28 PM	Well, not to brag, but with my NG cleric, i never have to heal in battle any more. I use a lot of useful spells that my party would rather have me use than a cure. However, you don't want to let the rest of your party know you're not planning to be a heal stick, you aught to convince them that they need your constant first aid or they will all die. That way you can get dibs on the good magic items by saying, "I need it to defend myself, and the party will be screwed without me." I netted myself a +4 flaming heavy mace and +3 breastplate that way, and they're the strongest of all the weapons and armor my party has. :D :D :D
allenchan 01-20-05, 09:48 PM	A sixth level cleric can heal himself and all his allies 165 hp a day without using his spells. (this is done with a cha of 18 and the feats extra turning and sacred healing) So use your spells in combat, use a cure minor if a buddy falls to stabilize, and then heal up after battle.
Darth K'Trava 01-20-05, 09:53 PM	I played a cleric one time that did more wading into battle and throwing around spells than healing. Sure she healed the party but they'd had better catch up to her first as it was her main priority to kill the BBEG. Healing came secondary unless someone was too seriously hurt to continue fighting without the potential of dying. And if someone died (this was at the time of being able of casting True Ressurection), they had to wait until the next morning to have that cast upon their corpse as she never prepped that spell. Her's were mostly offensive spells. So, not all have to be the "healing band-aid" type of cleric. ;)
Meshakhad 01-20-05, 10:44 PM	Try THIS one: Human Cleric of Kord 1st level feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency (greatsword), Power Attack 3rd level feat: Cleave Domains: Strength and Good (Holy Smite, anyone?) Plow through your enemies. And in the Forgotten Realms... If you can convince your DM to let you worship Mulhorandi deities, try Anhur. Get War and Storm. Rain down fire and lightning on your enemies.
tiercel 01-20-05, 11:40 PM	If you have Complete Divine, look into the Domain Spontaneity feat. Being able to spontaneously cast spells from your domain list will really increase the flavor of your War cleric or your Magic cleric, if you aren't limited to 1/day for each spell level. Suddenly you're pumping out attack spells, mage spells, weird spells, at will! Also, in terms of your party *needing* healing, you should look at a couple of things: -- size of the party (if its much over 4, you're going to be a busy healer unless you have at least one other character with some healing ability, druid, multiclass cleric, paladin, bard, even ranger) -- tactics of the party -- if your party is smart and works well together and doesn't get itself constantly surprised by being foolish (or by having a more-malevolent-than-usual DM) then you won't NEED as much healing, freeing you to do other things. Encourage party members to not just "sit there and take it, 'cos the cleric can patch me back up".
Shard of Suzail 01-21-05, 08:13 AM	I play true neutral and i spontaneously inflict. I have a few heal spells, usually some cure moderates, and thats it. Usefully, our fighter types are able to heal themselves (monks, pallys) or have very high ac (swashbuckler) so they work fine with that. I`m also big on summons and skellies, which soak up damage. In general, you have to do less healing when the party is built to look after itself. I reserve my heals for the combattant who is really mangled and maybe one other. If anyone else takes minor damage, then thats work for potions. I also kill things and dead things do less damage than live things (exception undead, who i tend to command anyway). If you can combine summon spells with dealing quality damage, then you need to heal less.
Leap 01-21-05, 09:05 AM	Prevention is better than cure, so consider defensive spells (protection from elements is too cool for words). Neg plane protection, neutralise poison cast ON the poioned object, prot from dodgyness etc….. If you are good aligned, leave the cures to spontaneous casting and focus on guiding / defending spells that negate the bad guys zappy powers. :)
Hustler One 01-21-05, 01:07 PM	I had a Cleric to the God of Slaughter. I was not the "Heal Wand" Actually I was the parties for most melee fighter and tank. Just have use your spells in a more offensive manner. Remember to keep those defensive spells though. You want to be versatile just in case lol
Ian Demagi 02-01-05, 08:37 PM	Along with all the cleric self buff spells discussed that can make a cleric a jugernaut of destruction in melee. Take a quick look at Summon Monster and Planar Ally... oh Mr. Blackguard,Mr Blackgaurd- meet my friend Mr. Planetar! Also my pet Yogi : the Celestial Dire Bear.....The thaumatuge (spelling, sorry!) prestige class might give you some good ideas... Great thing is with a Cleric, you can do all this stuff. May your skill prevail, Ian De' Magi