Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Metabubbles 12-14-04, 04:18 PM	Background; party of 5, gestalt characters (like multiclassing but both levels going up at the same time); Me-Cleric/Wizard/Geomancer (7/6/1 lvls)race is Aasimir. Them-Druid/Ranger (6/6 lvls) human, fighter thief (6/6 lvls)human, psion/? (7/6 lvls)half-giant, Barbarian/thief/holy liberator...something, something, something...(multiple gestalting taking advantage of the rules guy, pretty awesome character though)cat folk. We were given a nights notice to prepare to invade a black dragon's lair (in the middle of a swamp, under ground, through a Maze of stuff, and possibly somewhere underwater in the lair) to help a Lizard-folk village. Also the dragon has taken over 100's of trogladites (sp?) and they were invading the lizard folk's village. We have already defeated many trogladites, so we can just focus on the dragon. We save the day by defeating this Large dragon (that is just a guess, because we don't know for sure the size/age). All I know is its black and not the CR 11 level dragon. Help. I am mostly worried about my cleric spells which ones to prepare, secondly I am worry about strategy for invading such a lair. Thirdly I am worried about how to help my comrades to prepare, spells and such. Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
Starmage21 12-14-04, 04:47 PM	Protection from Elements (Acid) LOTS OF CURE SPELLS!
Ogre Daddy 12-14-04, 05:18 PM	First off - I would say fight it with your hat.....grab it and run. :D One night to prepare is too little to effectively negate the "home court" advantage that a similarly powerful dragon has in it's lair. If that is not practical, (probably not, from the way you described it), apart from the two spells previously stated, I would suggest plenty of "Wall" spells. Anything you can do to modify the terrian advantage that the dragon has will worth its weight in gold. What kind of scrolls do you have? Does any of your companions have any of the "dragon hunters" feats from the Draconomicon? I would take a hard look at what kind of skills and equipment any of you have that can be of any possible use to do a one-hour bull session with the other players. If you can think of a way to PO it into fighting you on the surface instead of in lair might be helpful too. Also consider moving the lizardman village until you can scout out the tunnels. It sounds like the objective is to save the villagers. If you can do it without going into the lair of a prepared dragon, so much the better. ;) Good luck.
Kittencaboodle 12-15-04, 10:38 AM	:nods sagely: Ahhh yes... A Black dragon... Play an Aasimir... Then stab it through the neck with a crossbow bolt.
Board_Rider 12-15-04, 04:37 PM	You could always go to the Wow did we get lucky (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=351815) thread and read how that guy defeated a red dragon. Cure Spells Anything to get the Barbarian+ to create more damage Stop it from flying With the amount of rogues in the party at least the breath weapon won't be too much of a problem!
Derren S. 12-15-04, 04:59 PM	Don't count on that. As a Red Dragon can fail a Willsave for Command, so can a rogue fail a Reflexsave to a Breath Weapon.
Melpomene 12-15-04, 05:11 PM	Black dragon dragoncraft baneblind armour of acid resistance. ::nods::
obrysii 12-15-04, 08:26 PM	How do you defeat a black dragon? Carefully. ;)
Afarian 12-16-04, 10:35 PM	Carefully. ;) Very Carefully!! Other than that-I have no Idea!
Melpomene 12-16-04, 10:47 PM	Black Dragons use ambush tactics, so you'll have to be especially careful. If you don't think you can spot them well enough, anything which can dredge lakes is good. If neither of these are options, you'll have to accept that the dragon will get the jump on you. Use circle tactics, spread wide enough to keep from getting more than two toasted with acid breath. Bring ranged weapons when he tries to fly, and don't chase if he dives into the water.
HomebrewedMonster 12-17-04, 06:56 AM	Buff the tanks damage and AC up as high as possible, make the rogue invisible, summon fodder, and cast resistance/protection from acid on everyone. As for invading a dragons lair, walk carefully, and carry a wooden rogue.
SmokeShadow 12-17-04, 01:42 PM	Repeated applications of the following before/during the fight: Protection from Elements: Acid, Enervation (yes, enervation, for the delicious penalties it bestows), targetted Dispel Magic (to kill its buffs, it'll have them, Dragons cast mage armor, trust me), Haste (commence the beatings, double time, really effective here because you've got a lot of competent melee fighters). It might be wise to send the rogue(s) ahead to disable any traps (the dragon may have humanoid allies that construct traps for it). [Edit: I realise you don't have a lot of time, but for future reference...] If you have lots of time to prepare (like days or weeks), and someone in your party has Craft Magic Arms and Armor (and Summon Monster I), try making some +1 Dragon Bane weapons (cause they sting!) for the best and maybe second best combatants...
DemonsOfRazgriz 12-17-04, 05:09 PM	Try to blind the dragon by taking out it's eyes in helps but not much. You could try and also work out a deal with the DM. When my friend was DMing he unleashed an nightmarish game on us and the deal was, I lost a level each time, I fused with a monster (fire,water/ice,wind,thunder,earth,acid) permanantlly. I think they were spirit monsters from the monster manual(I think the water/ice one was called a glimmerskin, I don't remember). Well, it really helped in his campaign for when we whent up against a Black Dragon(old) when, I received the Acid damage it was halved and the same for all the other elements. You could also pray to your deity for a temporary blessing to your stats, a brand new weapon or armor-with acid protection, or an item that could help.
SmokeShadow 12-18-04, 12:37 AM	Umm... Dragons have Blindsense, so taking out their eyes doesn't really work.
Father Dale 12-18-04, 01:04 PM	How to kill a Black Dragon: 1. Assay Resistance (its a swift action to cast) 2. Enervation, preferably Empowered. 3. Bestow Curse (from a distance), either -4 to checks or 50% to lose action 4. Hold Monster 5. Let fighters hack it down Dragons have notoriously bad touch AC, and they don't have much they can do to boost it until much higher levels. (Cat's Grace is about the only thing, and that doesn't help it much). Use spells and attacks that rely on touch AC, and try to prevent it from flying. Also, protect against acid :)
Steelwill 12-18-04, 01:33 PM	Any spells or advantage that keeps the dragon from taking to the air are highly recommended. Dragons are extremely capable as far as movment options, and limiting its ability to move (particularly by fighting it on terrain advantageous to the party) can be a deal maker/breaker. As well, try not to get too close, fighting at range and using cover are very good tools. Getting right up on a dragon is fatal, as almost all of them have a fearsom full attack, greater reach, and depending on the age categorie, multiple attack options for hitting more than one member of a party (tail slap, crush, breath weapon, dragon fear, hover etc). Also try to surround if possible, and keep it from being able to focus attacks at all/most/many of the party when possible. Forcing it to use its actions in a turn to fight only a few party members at any time reduces its overall deadliness. Spells wise, I would mostly concentrate on defending the party with them, as all dragons have spell resistance to some degree, higher ratings relative to its age category. Protection from Elements types, AC/cover booster (Shield, mage Armour, Shield of Faith, blur, displacement, fog cloud), attibute boosters (Bear's Endurance, Cat's Grace, etc), heal/cures, hastes, and mobility boosters (Fly, Windwalk, Expeditious Retreat). Buff the party through the roof, because unless the dragon has an item of dispel magic (wand/scroll) or the DM gives it to him as a spell known for its sorcerer levels, dragons aren't the walking antimagic fields they used to be. (Although the DM could decide to have you fight the dragon in a giant anti-magic field, but that screws the dragon much more than a party). In short, keeping mobile, using buff/cure spells, well coordinated attacks, and seeking advantagous surroundings are the best bets when fighting a dragon. My 2 cents.
Zonorhc 12-20-04, 07:44 AM	It's a Black, so the best way for it to avoid the party's attacks would be to dive underwater, coming up from time to time to spray you with acid. It'll likely be a long, frustrating battle. I suggest staying at range. At worst, you should be fighting a Huge Black Dragon, so its breath weapon can only reach 100', which is below the first range increment of any heavy crossbows or composite longbows you may have. If your party is particularly skilled with logistics, you could try getting a ballista or two down there. It has the same range increment as a heavy crossbow with 3d8 damage, at the cost of a -4 penalty to attack rolls and double the reloading time. However, if the dragon stays underwater between bursts of its breath weapon, you could reload and ready actions to pepper the big guy with oversized bolts as soon as it comes up.
weretouched 01-12-05, 07:32 PM	Use all the divination powers at your disposal buy some if needed. get as much acid resist as possible. learn the blacks opposite element and use it i forget sorry. keep it on the ground out of water. stay spread out so breath doesnt completely smear you. (your using gestalt rules my god...... so cheap i have a class combo for that have epic spellcasting at around lvl 13 lol) have much healing as stated earlyer. hire mercs maybe. (my favorite hint)(have an insane gnome rogue who makes loads of cool stuff like a steam powered xbow with a scope and the like :D ) try using advantages like jumping upon its back and stabing upwards it gets no dex for your on top its size hurts its ac further plus the way its scales are shaped they wont help, unless you have a mean dm, ya can push a sword right through its spine. this coming from the tiefling swashbuckler survivor of a dragon atack at lvl 1 :P . this may be your best bet most expensive but best.... get another dragon to help best chance is a good one but another lesser dragon of evil will help promise it the territory of the black with a lesser dragon to take the blows your team can watch it slowly wittle away even lose maybe, then kill off the weakened survivor. my tieflings an evil dude lvl5 swashbuckler str 14 dex 20 con 12 int 20 wis 14 cha 16 :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :shifty: :fight!: :fight!: :ghosted: :ghosted: :ghosted: :nonono: :ghosted: :ghosted: Light a man a fire warm him for a day light a man on fire warm him forever
Maerdash 01-12-05, 08:26 PM	All of the above suggestions are excellent, ive fought quite a few dragons in my time and i would say the enervation tactic is a killer with multiple casters or characters with use magic device and access to scrolls of enervate, however out of about 11 dragon fights groups i played in have only died twice just happens it was the two dragons we fought outside Never, and i do mean never fight a dragon when its in the sky, run teleport hide in a cave do anything but try to stand your ground against a flying spellcasting behemoth that lays waste to cities when its in its natural element. Anyway, enervate, ray of enfeeble, use spells that it cant save against and above all work as a team,use buffs on each other and heal often. gl&hf
Aluroon 01-13-05, 04:47 PM	Well, having defeated a pair of blacks not long ago (no not at the same time), I think I can give you some advice here. The problem with black dragons is that they really don’t have a specific weakness you can focus on. While yes there breath weapon isn’t as strong as that of many other dragons, they have no energy vulnerabilities, making it though to focus on what to attack them with. Your best bet is to keep it on the ground, as has been said. We had two battles with them, and the one in which we confronted it in a cave was far easier then one in which we were forced to pepper it with arrows, while trying to avoid its acid breath when it dive bombed us repeatedly. In the end we only survived that attack because our half-celestial cleric took to the air and tried to knock it down. He was getting ready to be shredded by both claw, fang, and acid when the dragon rolled a natural 1 on its attack (we use a fumble rule) and the cleric rolled a natural 20, resulting in him knocking it from the sky. He still almost died however; as the dm ruled it did get one claw on him as it fell. Moral of that long winded story is don’t fight the dragon in the air. Web and Entangle can be devastating to a dragon if you can hit it on the ground, and keep it from taking to the air, this is even more so with blacks, as you can keep them from diving underwater. Depending on its age be prepared to deal with fighting blind (they have the darkness ability). The largest danger in that regard is the fact that it can sit there and blast you while you cannot see with its acid breath. Having experienced this tactic it’s not fun, and I would advise you as the cleric to keep at least 3-4 daylight spells to counteract its darkness. As I don’t know what this things age category is I can’t advise you in regard to its spells, but be prepared for a number of dispel attempts against any protections you raise. Dragons are very intelligent, and if it sees you are resistant to its acid breath (its most deadly weapon after all), It will counter your spells. Avoid charging and full attacking it, as in melee it will shred you one vs. one, one vs. two, or even one vs. three with its large number of natural weapons and its own protection spells. I guess the bottom line is don’t fight it at a range because of its breath weapon, and don’t fight it up close because of its claws, tail, wings, bite, ect. Well, I guess your dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t… That’s about it for now, Good luck. Aluroon