Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SmiloDan 02-29-04, 10:31 AM	Our DM uses critical tables. There are both Critical Hit tables and Critical Fumble tables. And some of the results are pretty bad. One player died from rolling a critical fumble. It opened him up to an AoO for triple or quadruple normal damage! Other results are hitting yourself for triple damage, etc. I know at least one other player has problems with this system. The campaign itself is really fun, and all the players get along together (even the married couples!), and the story is real good, but not so overpowering that we feel railroaded, etc. It's just the critical tables are really lethal, and I don't think we've had one original player not need a Raise Dead potion. My druid died from a critical with a great axe, but that's gonna happen, and he was raised, so no biggy. Stuff happens. But one player died early in the session, and it was his last session anyways, so he was planning on going out in a blaze of glory. Instead, in the first or second round of combat in the first fight of the night, he critical fumbled and died and just watched the rest of the night. So that was kind of sad.
ehrin 02-29-04, 10:59 AM	One way might be to not shout with glee when your character rolls a 20, and you scream "Critical hit!" and roll again. Don't take obvious delight in adding up your bonuses and such. Just say "the orc takes 21 points of damage from an exceptional strike from my weapon!". The DM is likely only using the critical miss tables because he perceives an overuse/dependency on the critical hit tables. I know that my players calmed down a bit on their "critical hit" excitement when I informed them that the monsters were now going to be allowed to use the same rules, and score critical hits on them.
Eldren 02-29-04, 11:34 AM	Some Dungeon Masters favor the use of critical hit tables because they came into Dungeons & Dragons from other RPGs that used them, or they were big fans of "2.5", the 2nd Edition revision called "Skills & Powers". That used a critical hit table. Personally, I don't like 'em, because something like that always screws the players more than the creatures the DM throws at them, if only because the players are around for the entire length of the campaign (presumably), while most encounters don't last more than a few rounds. I use a critical fumble system, but it's pretty basic, and conforms pretty well to the same mechanic for critical hits in 3rd Edition. If you roll a natural 1, that's a critical fumble threat. Roll again. If you "miss" their AC again, then you've critically fumbled. This means that melee attackers suffer an Attack of Opportunity for leaving themselves open from a bad swing, ranged attackers have their bowstring snap or crossbow jam (requiring a full round action to restore it to functionality), and spellcasters cause a wild magic surge because they lost control of the magic. Pretty simple. I rawther like it, and I definitely like it a lot better than most critical hit tables, which start to focus on body parts, etc. The hit point system (or even, if you're using this variant from Unearthed Arcana, the Vitality Point/Wound Point system) is a generalized damage system that doesn't translate well to use with specific body parts. I don't think critical hit tables should do that either, and once you start removing body part damage, the entire foundation for a critical hit table dissolves anyway, probably one reason why, with a general damage system like D&D has, they didn't include it in 3rd Edition to begin with.
Funes the Memorious 02-29-04, 02:00 PM	I'm in the same campaign. This is a topic I've been wondering about broaching w/ my DM as well... I don't know if there's really anything wrong with the critical tables, but it seems to take us out of the game, focusing on rule playing instead of role playing. It's not really the table that bothers me but his different interpretation of the damage mulitpliers. Instead of 2 times the damage on a critical, it's 2 extra damage dice (or 3) and that's before any extra damage from his critical table. This basically makes all weapons at least 3x on criticals. That's a killer. And everyone who runs into it says "wait a minute, that's not right" :confused: and DM says "House Rules!" :teach: Honestly, I think we're stuck with it. Need to buy fortified armor.
atnoon 02-29-04, 02:04 PM	I know the feeling. There was this DM that had a crazy fumble system. Want to know what we did? All the players came to him an said "We won't accept this fumble system. Period." The Dm knew that after that he had only 2 choices: 1 - stop using the fumble system 2 - find another group. Thankfully our Dm chose the first. But thats the solution, first talk to your Dm, explain your points against the system. If that doesn't solve then you should gather all the other players, and if all of them feel the same way about the fumble system then go to your Dm (with all the players) and make your stand. He will only have two choices.
Drake Dragonslayer 02-29-04, 02:23 PM	In a very light hearted game, i once used a very BRUTAL fumble chart. I had different d% charts for Melee, Ranged and spell fumbles. One of them was: Implant melee weapon into genitals. and another was: Spell explodes in face
maven50312 02-29-04, 02:46 PM	I've always used a variant rule (not sure whether it is or isn't) but if you crit, roll to confirm normally. However, if you critically fail, roll a reflex save DC 15 to not drop your melee weapon, for ranged attacks on a critical failure, roll a 50% chance to hit an ally between you an your attacker. Not as life threatening as stated above, but embarrassing enough.
danielinthewolvesden 03-01-04, 04:04 AM	Well,it's a wild & crazy idea, but why not the two of you go ask him? Nicely. Weird, I know, but.........;)
adiaven 03-01-04, 04:23 AM	explain to the DM that a 16+ level fighter has a good chance of rolling a 1 in 5 rounds of full attacks. (20 attacks, and rolling a 1 is a 1:20 chance) Is it logical to say a highly trained fighter is going to fumble his weapon every 30 seconds of heavy fighting? Thats what the DM's rule is doing if he fumbles on a roll of 1.... Ask him to change it to 2 or 3 rolled 1's in a row for a critical fumble. That makes it much more realistic, and fun!!
howlingwolf 03-01-04, 05:09 AM	One word. Thumbscrews. :D
SmiloDan 03-01-04, 09:42 AM	Thanks for all the input. We don't cheer TOO much when we crit, but he also house ruled that a Natural 20 is an automatic critical, which is kind of good for us, kind of bad (since the monsters also use this rule). Also, I think the majority of us just instinctively roll "normal" crits, so we're rolling double damage for our swords, and the monsters are rolling triple damage. Or quadruple, since they often have greataxes...
Tehril 03-01-04, 01:38 PM	Well then, you should have every player move to the biggest crit and damage weapons as possible. Pile all enchantments into the crits and look for Keen or improved crit. As soon as the DM's critical rules start to blow up in his face and he sees you taking advantage of his crit rules (as opposed to being disadvantaged)... he just might change his rules. Ie, do to his monster what they've been doing to you. Granted, you might have to wait until all of you are dead and a new campaign has started... Or you could just speak to the DM as a group and say you'd like to stick with the PHB rules on crits... not any home brewed ones. After all, the PHB crit system was play tested for balance... the home brew by defenition is play tested for "cool or real" 'ness'
SmiloDan 03-01-04, 01:53 PM	I tried to bring it up a little last night, but we didn't get very far with it. The Thursday night game is smaller, and hopefully I can show up early and talk to him about it. Also, I think I'll have more player support. I think the fact that every single player death has been the result of a critical hit by the BBEG or a critical fumble of a player is a bad sign. Fortunately, the DM gives out potions of Raise Dead, and uses the alternative negative level rules for rising from the dead, but it's still pretty rough. Other than the critical tables, he runs a darn fine game. Not too railroady, not aimless at all, and very imaginative. We're allowed to explore character concepts we want, but there is some external structure to it all. I just think the critical tables have been playtested enough, and been found wanting. The DM doesn't think they needed to be playtested at all, and just put them in for "fun."
Tehril 03-01-04, 03:18 PM	Then do everything in your power to make your attacks crit friendly, crit often and crit deadly. It's fun for the Dm to see the players get a great crit on a deadly foe once in a while (because they roll so few dice compared to the DM)... but when his players become crit monkeys and his well laid plans are laid to waste by players dishing 75 points of damage on one crit...each... he might rethink his plans. If he yanks the crit table, be sure to offer to change your enchantments and feats to something less munchy :D Work every angle... find a way to affect undead and constructs...leave no DM opponent untouched by a crit. He'll eventually change it if you guys are criticalling too often or for too much damage. At that point, just point out to him that it's his crit rules that are throwing things out of whack.
eRaz0r 03-01-04, 03:40 PM	This is the problem with a linear system. No matter what your level, or your BAB or whatever, you still roll 1d20 to hit. Everything else just scales according to level and AC and CR and all that. So no matter how skilled you are, every time you strike with a weapon, you have a 1 in 20 chance of a fumble. 5% chance of doing something nasty to yourself EVERY TIME you swing a weapon. Now that's just not right. Unless these critical tables take into account BAB (say subtracting BAB from the roll on the fumble table or something.. or making a confirmation roll - a second miss means you still fumble, like critical hits) then the DM is being over-zealous in punishing the characters. Anything that kicks in 5% of the time with no ability for character skill to modify, is broken (in any system). If your DM is still in love with the critical tables (why, oh why, use yet another roll and slow down combat even more? MORON!) then you might suggest that he at least revise them in the following manner : Critical Hits : Use the default rules to trigger the critical hit. (threat range then confirmation). Use the amount you make your confirmation roll as a modifier on the table. High rolls do better stuff. (This way you make 2 rolls as normal, and the amount you make your confirmed roll reflects how well you penetrate their defenses. The table should be short (20 entries?) and not include instant death effects) Critical Fumbles : Natural 1s trigger a fumble check. Roll a second time to confirm the fumble. A second MISS confirms the fumble. The amount you miss by on your confirmation roll is added your roll on the fumble table. Subtract your BAB from this roll to mitigate your fumble. This table can be longer than the first one (up to 40 entries?) and should include mostly drop weapon, lose footing, stumble, etc. The higher the roll the worse the effect. Only above 20 or so should entries start to include damage. No sudden death effects here either. This way a 20th level warrior rolling a 1 and then another 1 against an AC 21 opponent would have to roll 20 + 20 (missed by) -20 (BAB) to damage himself. Which might be fair. It also means a 1st level Wizard can roll a 1 to hit and then confirm that hit with a 5 against an AC 15 opponent and get an average 10 + 10 - 0 (20) chance to stab himself in the foot. Personally, I think critical tables are more effort than their worth, but they can be made more fair than dealing triple or greater damage every 20 rolls or so.
primemover003 03-01-04, 03:45 PM	Originally posted by Eldren Some Dungeon Masters favor the use of critical hit tables because they came into Dungeons & Dragons from other RPGs that used them, or they were big fans of "2.5", the 2nd Edition revision called "Skills & Powers". That used a critical hit table. Actually it Was Combat & Tactics. :teach: :)
wdarkk 03-01-04, 03:53 PM	1. Get your character killed, after telling your companions not to raise you. 2. Find a low LA template with multiple arms. 3. Multiweapon Fighting. 4. Keen Monkey-Gripped Scimitars (something like that, don't remember Monkey Grip too well) with various burst properties. 5. Weapon Master (Scimitar) 6. Constant, dangmassive criticals. 7. Mocking laughter.
Funes the Memorious 03-01-04, 07:22 PM	eRaz0r: We already do roll to confirm on critical misses. The DM only counts natural 20's as automatic. The crit tables are only 20 entries, and don't have any automatic deaths. But you still end up w/ an orc doing 8d12 if you hit the right entry on the table, at least the way he's figuring damage. And that's close enough to automatic death until players hit at least level 5 or 6. At least. But we already got him to get rid of his spellcasting critical failure rules. It was set up so that any spell, not just those that require attack rolls, could critically fumble. Having a fireball go off where you are standing rather than where you cast it was not an appealing prospect. So of course no one picked a spell-casting class. But it is a fun game. We try out a lot of stuff . . . it just doesn't all work. The flavor is good, I just think it takes us out of the game a little too much.
Tehril 03-01-04, 07:51 PM	Well, since you are playing 3.0, Keen and Improved Critical stack. Grab those first. Next, pick a weapon with either a missive crit roll or a high crit range. Why not do both? Next, make your character a ranger/fighter with the TWF path. Make sure he has high strength as well. Now, when fighting TWF, use those high crit range swords with keen on them...make sure you have improved crit with them. Make it easy...use a scimitar. You will now critical on a range of 15-20 with both blades, two attack per round... Alternatively, you could take two short swords etc... less attack penalty. Also, have a great axe with Keen on it ...and have Improved Crit with it. Make sure you have Power Attack and Cleave. Now, remember to pile as many Burst effects as possible on it as well as tacking on wounding or some other property that does nasty stuff on a crit. Bump the enhancement bonus last, unless you are meeting alot of critters with DR/Magic. I'd give the wounding(3.5...or 3.0 Level Drain) ability to both swords and the Burst abilities to the great axe. This could be done by 2 different characters, but if you had multiple characters...both doing this... your DM *might* get the hint that his tables are goofy. As far as I'm concerned, that is pretty gross... and entirely 3.0 core as well... Any DM should fear characters with those builds...
Edymnion 03-01-04, 08:05 PM	Have you talked to your DM about it? Have you gone up and said "I don't like these rules, they're no fun, I don't want to play with them anymore"? Helps if you get several other players on your side, but a GOOD DM should be willing to dump the crit hit/fumble stuff to make the game more enjoyable. If he doesn't remove them, does the rest of the group agree with you? Aka, are they all sick and tired of this stuff? If they are, just have the entire group of players agree to not play with those rules. The DM can insist on using them all he wants, just ignore them. If he says "Your character lops off his own arm", just tell him "No, he didn't" and mean it. Just have the entire group ignore any sort of critical hit effect other than those specifically mentioned in the DMG. No extra good stuff for you, no bad stuff. If you roll a critical hit, and he tells you to roll for extra effects, just say no. If everybody refuses to use the rules, what is he going to do about it? He can either drop the rule, or he can stop DM'ing. And frankly, if he stops DM'ing over something as stupid as this, he wasn't worth having for a DM in the first place.
Gandilas 03-01-04, 10:54 PM	Originally posted by adiaven explain to the DM that a 16+ level fighter has a good chance of rolling a 1 in 5 rounds of full attacks. (20 attacks, and rolling a 1 is a 1:20 chance) Is it logical to say a highly trained fighter is going to fumble his weapon every 30 seconds of heavy fighting? Thats what the DM's rule is doing if he fumbles on a roll of 1.... Ask him to change it to 2 or 3 rolled 1's in a row for a critical fumble. That makes it much more realistic, and fun!! That's why the 3.0/3.5 system requirs a confirmation roll. If you have to do it for crits, you have to do it for fumbles as well. My personal system works well. Since a crit is like hitting multiple times, I rule that a fumble means that you miss/skip your next attack.
Nick Soapdish 03-02-04, 12:14 AM	Say, this isn't BA's home-brewed Critical Mass charts again, is it? ;) Seriously, I don't mind home-brewed crits, but they usually overdo it and this definitely sounds like one of those cases. I think your best course of action is just to talk to him about it, assuming that the rest of the players also agree that they're whacked.
SmiloDan 03-02-04, 08:47 AM	Well, there is a confirmation roll, so there is "only" a 2.5% chance of cutting off your own arm....
Twisted Puppy 03-02-04, 09:26 AM	Originally posted by maven50312 I've always used a variant rule (not sure whether it is or isn't) but if you crit, roll to confirm normally. However, if you critically fail, roll a reflex save DC 15 to not drop your melee weapon, for ranged attacks on a critical failure, roll a 50% chance to hit an ally between you an your attacker. Not as life threatening as stated above, but embarrassing enough. I use pretty much the same system: fumble, roll Reflex save DC 15. Melee weapon is dropped on failure (flies out of hand on a second "1"), or bow string breaks. I also use the nat20 + nat20 + confirm hit = instant kill rule : but that is only for up to one size larger. Oddly, have only had that happen twice, and both against Medium size foes. Against foes that don't qualify for the instant kill, add +1 to the critical modifier (x 2 becomes x3, etc.)