How Do You Handle Chasing a Creature Down? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How Do You Handle Chasing a Creature Down? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dolbycm
09-24-07, 05:36 PM I summoned a Celestial Lion (movement 40 ft/3secs) and a Gnoll (30 ft/3 secs) was trying to get away. The lion has the run feat so he can actually go 200 ft/6 secs and the gnoll runs at 120 ft/6 secs. The gnoll has initiative and started out 60 ft ahead of the lion.

Without the round based mechanics the lion should catch him in 4.5 secs (xgnoll = 60 + (120/6)t; xlion = 0 + (200/6)t; xgnoll-xlion = 0 = 60 - (80/6)t; t = 4.5). So, I should catch him in the first round and be able to attack him in the second round.

Inside the round based mechanics, the gnoll moves first and goes 120 ft in the first round. The lion (who is now 180 ft away from the gnoll) move 200 ft but can't grapple him or attach him. In the second round, the gnoll runs 120 ft. in a straight line which avoids an attack of opportunity from the lion. As long as the gnoll can move in a direction that leaves him more than 80 ft. away (so the lion can't pounce on him) at the end of his turn, he will never get caught!!! Argh!!!

Does anyone have a house rule to fix this? Any ideas?

Thanks,
Clint
IllyannaFarseer
09-24-07, 05:50 PM well the lion doesn't *have* to move the full 200ft. It can stop right next to the gnoll, who will draw an attack of op when he moves away the next round. Or the Gnoll will attack the lion (who was running and thus has no dex) and try and kill it...or the Gnoll can withdraw (but only 60ft easily within charge range).

So for your example: Gnoll runs 120ft. Lion runs 160ft (starting 40ft away from gnoll's original position). Gnoll runs (drawing AOO). If Gnoll survives, lion runs again right next to him to get another AOO.

Now the only thing I have question is does running leave you flatfooted (and thus unable to get in a AOO)? I know you don't get your dex to your AC, but not sure if you are flatfooted and thus can't react.

If you are flatfooted then you'll need to houserule it, as the current rules don't take this into consideration.
TheJackOfSpades
09-24-07, 05:50 PM Very simply. The Charge option. Double move, AND attack, with a +2 to his attack (can't remember if it's damage or attack roll... Think it's the roll). After the first round the lion is within range to charge him.

(Note, the lion gets a -2 to AC for using charge, however. But I don't think he has to worry...)
IllyannaFarseer
09-24-07, 05:54 PM not necessarly Jack.

If gnoll runs north 120ft, Lion runs north up to 200ft (assuming same starting position).

next round Gnoll runs west (now greater than 80ft from lion, so lion can't charge..and must run).

Next round Gnoll runs North again...and so on.

Unfortuneatly the miniature rules for movement don't take into account a chase. I've always made it into a story moment with some dex rolls to see if you close, and then a take down/attack etc.
darkneolink
09-24-07, 06:00 PM oposed Dex check

give a +2 to the one with greater speed for every 10 feets

i.e.

Human chases halfing
Human speed 30 feets
halfing speed 20 feets

human 1d20+DEX+2
halfing 1d20+DEx

same applies the other way around
dolbycm
09-24-07, 06:08 PM Are you proposing an opposed dex check to see if the gnoll can turn away from the chase and keep it going?
Some_call_me_Tim
09-24-07, 06:09 PM Now the only thing I have question is does running leave you flatfooted (and thus unable to get in a AOO)? I know you don't get your dex to your AC, but not sure if you are flatfooted and thus can't react.You only lose your dexterity bonus to AC, so you still threaten. The lion also has the run feat which allows him to retain his dexterity bonus to AC as well.

Also don't forget a creature can only run a number of rounds equal to it's dexterity score. In this case the gnoll is in even more trouble as he can only run for 13 rounds while the lion can run for 15. At the end of the 13th round of running (assuming he survives the 13 AoO's for leaving a square the lion threatens) the gnoll can only double move--not enough to get him out of range of a charge. I wonder if he tastes like chicken.
:chicken:
darkneolink
09-24-07, 06:15 PM I am proposing that if the Gnoll beats the Lion he managed to escape from it (giving him time to hide or just plain run away)

the winner might have won because a low log a hole in the ground or heavy trafic... the fact is that the +2 rule is the simplest way around it (other modifiers might enter like the Run feat giving another +2 fatigue givin -X)

or you could rule that if the chased (in my example the halfing) beated the chaser by 5 or more he succesfully scaped if not the chase keeps going. if the chaser beats the chased by 5 or more he caught him

but that is just my humble opinion

DMG page 20 has a short mention about it
Some_call_me_Tim
09-24-07, 06:20 PM oposed Dex check

give a +2 to the one with greater speed for every 10 feets

Are you proposing an opposed dex check to see if the gnoll can turn away from the chase and keep it going?

I think he might be referring to the rules on pursuit and evasion, which do call for a dexterity check if they are the same speed. However, I don't think that is appropriate in a chase where you have a lion which is much faster and can run longer than its prey.

While his only hope is not out-running the lion but evading him a simple check like that negates a huge advantage. This is where the DM could put obstacles that both have to overcome. Such as jumping a log, swimming a small creek, or the like. Short of successfully hiding or squeezing into something small I don't think the gnoll stands much of a chance.
Cifer
09-24-07, 07:53 PM not necessarly Jack.

If gnoll runs north 120ft, Lion runs north up to 200ft (assuming same starting position).

next round Gnoll runs west (now greater than 80ft from lion, so lion can't charge..and must run).

Next round Gnoll runs North again...and so on.

Unfortuneatly the miniature rules for movement don't take into account a chase. I've always made it into a story moment with some dex rolls to see if you close, and then a take down/attack etc.
So... please tell me where the problem is when you assume your average celestial lion isn't stupid, lets the gnoll move first and moves to be adjacent to the gnoll. Now the gnoll has two options: Withdraw, move two times normal speed and get pounced or run and provoke an AoO. In both cases, the gnoll doesn't deal damage himself (assuming he doesn't have a reach weapon) and gets some every single round.

the winner might have won because a low log a hole in the ground or heavy trafic... the fact is that the +2 rule is the simplest way around it (other modifiers might enter like the Run feat giving another +2 fatigue givin -X)
The problem is that +2 doesn't nearly convey the benefit of one runner having one and a half time as much speed as the other one. With such differences, there can be only one winner.
darkneolink
09-24-07, 10:10 PM and that is the reason the +2 is for every 10 feets one is faster than the other
dolbycm
09-25-07, 10:18 AM So, what have heard in a couple of the posts here is that the gnoll cannot run as part of his withdrawl from a threatened square. Is that true? We have always played that you can run when you are withdrawing.

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the issue is more how hard can someone turn when they are running? In order to run in a round, you have to go in a straight line. But there isn't anything that I know of that says you have continue on that line to continue running. I think this may get fixed by making a dex check in order to change direction when you are continuing to run and make the DC higher as the change in direction is greater. So, if you want to make a 90 deg turn, make a dex check. If you fail the DC by more than some number you fall down and more than some smaller number you cannot run for that round.
Cifer
09-25-07, 10:37 AM and that is the reason the +2 is for every 10 feets one is faster than the other
A halfling has a speed of 20 feet. A human has one of 30 feet. That's ten feet difference, but it also means the human is one and a half times as fast as the halfling. Depending on whether the environment allows run actions or only double movement, the human gains 20 or 40 feet on the halfling every six seconds.

I'd say that as long as there are no extraordinary circumstances like truly abundant cover/concealment and large distance at the beginning of the pursuit, no roll is needed.

So, what have heard in a couple of the posts here is that the gnoll cannot run as part of his withdrawl from a threatened square. Is that true? We have always played that you can run when you are withdrawing.
Answer your question yourself: Can you make a Full Attack while Withdrawing? Both are separate full-round actions, just as Withdraw and Run are.

In order to run in a round, you have to go in a straight line. But there isn't anything that I know of that says you have continue on that line to continue running.
That would mean introducing facing, turning and turn-spanning movement into D&D - a hassle I'd rather spare me. I already try to stay away from the flying rules with their 5+ types of moving up, down, turning, hovering and doing other things.
dolbycm
09-25-07, 11:14 AM The use of withdraw fixes my problem. Since the gnoll was threatned by the lion after the first round, the gnoll would have to take the AoO in order to continue running, attack the lion, or make his next move as a withdraw action (which I looked up is a defined full round action that is only a double move). No matter what the gnoll chose to do, the lion was going to get a swing at him (an AoO, a full round attack, or a pounce when he chased him down)!

Thanks for your help guys!!!
Some_call_me_Tim
09-25-07, 11:40 AM and that is the reason the +2 is for every 10 feets one is faster than the otherLet's look at what that mighty +2 does for the odds of catching someone. Assuming equal dexterity the much much slower creature still escapes a whopping 40% of the time.

If a slow creature can evade a vastly faster creature 40% of the time, I ought to be a star running back in the NFL. :P

Dexterity checks are fine for equal speed characters but shouldn't be used for a faster pursuer.
darkneolink
09-25-07, 01:14 PM well change it to +2 per every 5 feets of diference and if you want to go even further take the runing speed not the walking

120feets (Gnoll)
160 feets (lion)

160-120 = 40

with the first proposition it would be DEX+(4)(2)+[2 with run]= Dex + 8 +[2]
if we are giving the bonus for every 5 feets it would be DEX+(8)(2)+[2 with run]= DEX +16 +[2 with run]

Remember what I told about catching the goblin or the goblin scaping if there is a 5+ diference with the total if he keeps winning distance if the chase goes up to a number of rounds equal to the DEX[CON] of the one with the lowest DEX[CON] he automatically gets a -X penalties
Ecalsneerg
09-25-07, 01:16 PM If you keep runnig, you have to start making con checks eventually... then you stop running if you fail...

Then you kill 'em.
DrMorganes
09-25-07, 02:15 PM Fire up a video of lions attacking (like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkZ8kOMWTdI)). Any big cat first attacks to down its prey. In the video, one lion attempts a trip attack at 14 seconds, and another successfully grapples at 44 seconds. Let's take a look at how this might work in the OP's example:

Round 1
We'll assume the Gnoll is weaponless, 30' away from the lion, wins the initiative, and is stupid enough to run. He moves 4x his speed (120') and ends his turn 150' away from the lion.

The lion also runs, but at 5x its speed, moving up to 200'. This allows Kitty to catch up to the gnoll in a single round (as you said), but is unable by the rules to make an attack this round.

Round 2
The gnoll starts his turn in a square threatened by the lion. Again, the gnoll chooses to run, hoping to move another 120' and reach the trees there. However, moving out of the threatened square draws an attack of opportunity from the lion. Being a predator, it understands that prey off its feet can't run, so Kitty makes a Trip Attack as its AoO. With a 21 STR (+5 to the check) vs the gnoll's 15 STR (+2), Kitty has a decent chance of knocking the gnoll prone. Let's say the Trip Attack is successful. The gnoll now uses a Move Action to get to its feet, and moves only his speed (30') away from the lion.

The lion charges, easily closing the 30', gaining a +2 to his attack roll, and able to Pounce for a full attack: bite, 2 claws, and 2 rakes, for a total of (4d4+d8+16) points of damage. Throw in +5 for the Celestial creature's Smite if you're wanting to make sure the gnoll dies. Even if half the attacks miss, the average damage is still enough to kill the gnoll. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the lion's dice suck, all attacks miss, and the gnoll gets away for another round.

Round 3
The gnoll again tries to run, drawing another Trip Attack AoO. Again, the lion knocks him down, and the gnoll moves 30'.

This time, however, the lion doesn't charge. With a Move of 40', it simply closes the distance to the gnoll and makes a Bite attack. It it hits, the lion uses its Improved Grapple to dish out a world of hurt.

If the AoO ever misses, or a grapple attempt fails, we simply return to the actions of Rounds 1 and 2 until the lion takes down the gnoll and has a snack or the gnoll reaches the trees and gets away.

The moral of the story?

Play creatures as intelligent as they are, with tactics that make sense, and then apply the rules. Going the other way 'round makes things all wonky.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dolbycm 09-24-07, 05:36 PM	I summoned a Celestial Lion (movement 40 ft/3secs) and a Gnoll (30 ft/3 secs) was trying to get away. The lion has the run feat so he can actually go 200 ft/6 secs and the gnoll runs at 120 ft/6 secs. The gnoll has initiative and started out 60 ft ahead of the lion. Without the round based mechanics the lion should catch him in 4.5 secs (xgnoll = 60 + (120/6)t; xlion = 0 + (200/6)t; xgnoll-xlion = 0 = 60 - (80/6)t; t = 4.5). So, I should catch him in the first round and be able to attack him in the second round. Inside the round based mechanics, the gnoll moves first and goes 120 ft in the first round. The lion (who is now 180 ft away from the gnoll) move 200 ft but can't grapple him or attach him. In the second round, the gnoll runs 120 ft. in a straight line which avoids an attack of opportunity from the lion. As long as the gnoll can move in a direction that leaves him more than 80 ft. away (so the lion can't pounce on him) at the end of his turn, he will never get caught!!! Argh!!! Does anyone have a house rule to fix this? Any ideas? Thanks, Clint
IllyannaFarseer 09-24-07, 05:50 PM	well the lion doesn't have to move the full 200ft. It can stop right next to the gnoll, who will draw an attack of op when he moves away the next round. Or the Gnoll will attack the lion (who was running and thus has no dex) and try and kill it...or the Gnoll can withdraw (but only 60ft easily within charge range). So for your example: Gnoll runs 120ft. Lion runs 160ft (starting 40ft away from gnoll's original position). Gnoll runs (drawing AOO). If Gnoll survives, lion runs again right next to him to get another AOO. Now the only thing I have question is does running leave you flatfooted (and thus unable to get in a AOO)? I know you don't get your dex to your AC, but not sure if you are flatfooted and thus can't react. If you are flatfooted then you'll need to houserule it, as the current rules don't take this into consideration.
TheJackOfSpades 09-24-07, 05:50 PM	Very simply. The Charge option. Double move, AND attack, with a +2 to his attack (can't remember if it's damage or attack roll... Think it's the roll). After the first round the lion is within range to charge him. (Note, the lion gets a -2 to AC for using charge, however. But I don't think he has to worry...)
IllyannaFarseer 09-24-07, 05:54 PM	not necessarly Jack. If gnoll runs north 120ft, Lion runs north up to 200ft (assuming same starting position). next round Gnoll runs west (now greater than 80ft from lion, so lion can't charge..and must run). Next round Gnoll runs North again...and so on. Unfortuneatly the miniature rules for movement don't take into account a chase. I've always made it into a story moment with some dex rolls to see if you close, and then a take down/attack etc.
darkneolink 09-24-07, 06:00 PM	oposed Dex check give a +2 to the one with greater speed for every 10 feets i.e. Human chases halfing Human speed 30 feets halfing speed 20 feets human 1d20+DEX+2 halfing 1d20+DEx same applies the other way around
dolbycm 09-24-07, 06:08 PM	Are you proposing an opposed dex check to see if the gnoll can turn away from the chase and keep it going?
Some_call_me_Tim 09-24-07, 06:09 PM	Now the only thing I have question is does running leave you flatfooted (and thus unable to get in a AOO)? I know you don't get your dex to your AC, but not sure if you are flatfooted and thus can't react.You only lose your dexterity bonus to AC, so you still threaten. The lion also has the run feat which allows him to retain his dexterity bonus to AC as well. Also don't forget a creature can only run a number of rounds equal to it's dexterity score. In this case the gnoll is in even more trouble as he can only run for 13 rounds while the lion can run for 15. At the end of the 13th round of running (assuming he survives the 13 AoO's for leaving a square the lion threatens) the gnoll can only double move--not enough to get him out of range of a charge. I wonder if he tastes like chicken. :chicken:
darkneolink 09-24-07, 06:15 PM	I am proposing that if the Gnoll beats the Lion he managed to escape from it (giving him time to hide or just plain run away) the winner might have won because a low log a hole in the ground or heavy trafic... the fact is that the +2 rule is the simplest way around it (other modifiers might enter like the Run feat giving another +2 fatigue givin -X) or you could rule that if the chased (in my example the halfing) beated the chaser by 5 or more he succesfully scaped if not the chase keeps going. if the chaser beats the chased by 5 or more he caught him but that is just my humble opinion DMG page 20 has a short mention about it
Some_call_me_Tim 09-24-07, 06:20 PM	oposed Dex check give a +2 to the one with greater speed for every 10 feets Are you proposing an opposed dex check to see if the gnoll can turn away from the chase and keep it going? I think he might be referring to the rules on pursuit and evasion, which do call for a dexterity check if they are the same speed. However, I don't think that is appropriate in a chase where you have a lion which is much faster and can run longer than its prey. While his only hope is not out-running the lion but evading him a simple check like that negates a huge advantage. This is where the DM could put obstacles that both have to overcome. Such as jumping a log, swimming a small creek, or the like. Short of successfully hiding or squeezing into something small I don't think the gnoll stands much of a chance.
Cifer 09-24-07, 07:53 PM	not necessarly Jack. If gnoll runs north 120ft, Lion runs north up to 200ft (assuming same starting position). next round Gnoll runs west (now greater than 80ft from lion, so lion can't charge..and must run). Next round Gnoll runs North again...and so on. Unfortuneatly the miniature rules for movement don't take into account a chase. I've always made it into a story moment with some dex rolls to see if you close, and then a take down/attack etc. So... please tell me where the problem is when you assume your average celestial lion isn't stupid, lets the gnoll move first and moves to be adjacent to the gnoll. Now the gnoll has two options: Withdraw, move two times normal speed and get pounced or run and provoke an AoO. In both cases, the gnoll doesn't deal damage himself (assuming he doesn't have a reach weapon) and gets some every single round. the winner might have won because a low log a hole in the ground or heavy trafic... the fact is that the +2 rule is the simplest way around it (other modifiers might enter like the Run feat giving another +2 fatigue givin -X) The problem is that +2 doesn't nearly convey the benefit of one runner having one and a half time as much speed as the other one. With such differences, there can be only one winner.
darkneolink 09-24-07, 10:10 PM	and that is the reason the +2 is for every 10 feets one is faster than the other
dolbycm 09-25-07, 10:18 AM	So, what have heard in a couple of the posts here is that the gnoll cannot run as part of his withdrawl from a threatened square. Is that true? We have always played that you can run when you are withdrawing. The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the issue is more how hard can someone turn when they are running? In order to run in a round, you have to go in a straight line. But there isn't anything that I know of that says you have continue on that line to continue running. I think this may get fixed by making a dex check in order to change direction when you are continuing to run and make the DC higher as the change in direction is greater. So, if you want to make a 90 deg turn, make a dex check. If you fail the DC by more than some number you fall down and more than some smaller number you cannot run for that round.
Cifer 09-25-07, 10:37 AM	and that is the reason the +2 is for every 10 feets one is faster than the other A halfling has a speed of 20 feet. A human has one of 30 feet. That's ten feet difference, but it also means the human is one and a half times as fast as the halfling. Depending on whether the environment allows run actions or only double movement, the human gains 20 or 40 feet on the halfling every six seconds. I'd say that as long as there are no extraordinary circumstances like truly abundant cover/concealment and large distance at the beginning of the pursuit, no roll is needed. So, what have heard in a couple of the posts here is that the gnoll cannot run as part of his withdrawl from a threatened square. Is that true? We have always played that you can run when you are withdrawing. Answer your question yourself: Can you make a Full Attack while Withdrawing? Both are separate full-round actions, just as Withdraw and Run are. In order to run in a round, you have to go in a straight line. But there isn't anything that I know of that says you have continue on that line to continue running. That would mean introducing facing, turning and turn-spanning movement into D&D - a hassle I'd rather spare me. I already try to stay away from the flying rules with their 5+ types of moving up, down, turning, hovering and doing other things.
dolbycm 09-25-07, 11:14 AM	The use of withdraw fixes my problem. Since the gnoll was threatned by the lion after the first round, the gnoll would have to take the AoO in order to continue running, attack the lion, or make his next move as a withdraw action (which I looked up is a defined full round action that is only a double move). No matter what the gnoll chose to do, the lion was going to get a swing at him (an AoO, a full round attack, or a pounce when he chased him down)! Thanks for your help guys!!!
Some_call_me_Tim 09-25-07, 11:40 AM	and that is the reason the +2 is for every 10 feets one is faster than the otherLet's look at what that mighty +2 does for the odds of catching someone. Assuming equal dexterity the much much slower creature still escapes a whopping 40% of the time. If a slow creature can evade a vastly faster creature 40% of the time, I ought to be a star running back in the NFL. :P Dexterity checks are fine for equal speed characters but shouldn't be used for a faster pursuer.
darkneolink 09-25-07, 01:14 PM	well change it to +2 per every 5 feets of diference and if you want to go even further take the runing speed not the walking 120feets (Gnoll) 160 feets (lion) 160-120 = 40 with the first proposition it would be DEX+(4)(2)+[2 with run]= Dex + 8 +[2] if we are giving the bonus for every 5 feets it would be DEX+(8)(2)+[2 with run]= DEX +16 +[2 with run] Remember what I told about catching the goblin or the goblin scaping if there is a 5+ diference with the total if he keeps winning distance if the chase goes up to a number of rounds equal to the DEX[CON] of the one with the lowest DEX[CON] he automatically gets a -X penalties
Ecalsneerg 09-25-07, 01:16 PM	If you keep runnig, you have to start making con checks eventually... then you stop running if you fail... Then you kill 'em.
DrMorganes 09-25-07, 02:15 PM	Fire up a video of lions attacking (like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkZ8kOMWTdI)). Any big cat first attacks to down its prey. In the video, one lion attempts a trip attack at 14 seconds, and another successfully grapples at 44 seconds. Let's take a look at how this might work in the OP's example: Round 1 We'll assume the Gnoll is weaponless, 30' away from the lion, wins the initiative, and is stupid enough to run. He moves 4x his speed (120') and ends his turn 150' away from the lion. The lion also runs, but at 5x its speed, moving up to 200'. This allows Kitty to catch up to the gnoll in a single round (as you said), but is unable by the rules to make an attack this round. Round 2 The gnoll starts his turn in a square threatened by the lion. Again, the gnoll chooses to run, hoping to move another 120' and reach the trees there. However, moving out of the threatened square draws an attack of opportunity from the lion. Being a predator, it understands that prey off its feet can't run, so Kitty makes a Trip Attack as its AoO. With a 21 STR (+5 to the check) vs the gnoll's 15 STR (+2), Kitty has a decent chance of knocking the gnoll prone. Let's say the Trip Attack is successful. The gnoll now uses a Move Action to get to its feet, and moves only his speed (30') away from the lion. The lion charges, easily closing the 30', gaining a +2 to his attack roll, and able to Pounce for a full attack: bite, 2 claws, and 2 rakes, for a total of (4d4+d8+16) points of damage. Throw in +5 for the Celestial creature's Smite if you're wanting to make sure the gnoll dies. Even if half the attacks miss, the average damage is still enough to kill the gnoll. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the lion's dice suck, all attacks miss, and the gnoll gets away for another round. Round 3 The gnoll again tries to run, drawing another Trip Attack AoO. Again, the lion knocks him down, and the gnoll moves 30'. This time, however, the lion doesn't charge. With a Move of 40', it simply closes the distance to the gnoll and makes a Bite attack. It it hits, the lion uses its Improved Grapple to dish out a world of hurt. If the AoO ever misses, or a grapple attempt fails, we simply return to the actions of Rounds 1 and 2 until the lion takes down the gnoll and has a snack or the gnoll reaches the trees and gets away. The moral of the story? Play creatures as intelligent as they are, with tactics that make sense, and then apply the rules. Going the other way 'round makes things all wonky.