Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stealthy Paladin 06-01-04, 12:17 PM	Playing a paladin in a new campaign, I've come to realize that there are not many ways to maximize his... err... potential. Multiclassing is right out. What can I do to pimp my paladin? PS: Yes, I frequently powergame but lately I've been rolling nothing but 1's... so... frusterating. (ie: DM: Make a ride check Me: Allright, I've got a +11 in ride so this shouldn't be hard (rolls) Me:...I rolled another 1. DM: You fall off your horse and your face drags on the ground, meanwhile, everyone is laughing at you. Me: Damit!) Are Paladins just meant to pick their class every time and hope for the best? This LG thing feels like a straightjacket. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Winternova 06-01-04, 12:28 PM	I think to play a paladin, you kind ahave to have your heart into ridding the world of evil, and less into amassing phat lewt. If it feels like a straight jacket, all i can suggest is modify your approach, or play a different class. Would it help if the kinds of quests were more classically heroic than what you're on now? Or if the setting more catered to chivalry and gallantry?
Bob Gein 06-01-04, 12:35 PM	Originally posted by Stealthy Paladin Playing a paladin in a new campaign, I've come to realize that there are not many ways to maximize his... err... potential. Multiclassing is right out. What can I do to pimp my paladin? Are Paladins just meant to pick their class every time and hope for the best? This LG thing feels like a straightjacket. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Multiclassing isn't always such a bad idea. Ask what prestige classes your DM allows. Originally posted by Stealthy Paladin PS: Yes, I frequently powergame but lately I've been rolling nothing but 1's... so... frusterating. (ie: DM: Make a ride check Me: Allright, I've got a +11 in ride so this shouldn't be hard (rolls) Me:...I rolled another 1. DM: You fall off your horse and your face drags on the ground, meanwhile, everyone is laughing at you. Me: Damit!) My suggestion here is to get yourself a warhorse if you're not yet 5th level. If you had a warhorse in your example above you would only need a DC 10 to fight with the warhorse, excluding miscellaneous/conditional modifiers. Natural 1s don't automatically fail on skill checks.
Naeron 06-01-04, 12:59 PM	Originally posted by Stealthy Paladin <snip> (ie: DM: Make a ride check Me: Allright, I've got a +11 in ride so this shouldn't be hard (rolls) Me:...I rolled another 1. DM: You fall off your horse and your face drags on the ground, meanwhile, everyone is laughing at you. Me: Damit!) Are Paladins just meant to pick their class every time and hope for the best? This LG thing feels like a straightjacket. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. As the DC for "Stay in Saddle" is 5 you cannot fail this roll if you are using the core rules. If you have a warhorse (which you should have) you also cannot fail the Fight with Warhorse check. Point out to your DM that a 1 is not an automatic failure with a skill check just as a 20 is not an automatic success.
Rhistel 06-01-04, 03:24 PM	Ok, the title of the thread had me very scared for a second.... From your example, it seems that it isn't the fault of the class but your questionable dice rolling skill. The obvious solution would be to offer your dice in a sacred ritual to the god of your choice and go buy some new dice :D Seriously though, the paladin class is nearly as much a powerhouse as the fighter (just with a few moral restrictions). With a few more lucky dice roles you'll be up and saving the world in no time :)
Dauntless 06-01-04, 03:26 PM	Look at the divine feats from Complete Warrior and Complete Divine. You probably won't be very good at turning undead, so you might as well burn those turning attempts for something useful.
eudas 06-01-04, 04:03 PM	By default, skills do not have critical failures/successes. There is, however, a variant rule (I can't remember if it's in the PHB Skills chapter or in the DMG somewhere, but I assure you that it exists) that allows for critical rolls on skill checks. eudas
Grox 06-01-04, 04:43 PM	Yes, and any system that has you falling out of the saddle (and taking the damage with your "face on the ground") every time you roll a 1 on a Ride check is part of a world where horseback riding would have never taken hold by reason of impractical danger of the practice, since everyone who rides a horse regularly would break their neck at least once a month. I could see a crit-system for skill checks for skills that aren't made very often, or for things that are ALWAYS supposed to be a struggle even for experts --- Decipher Script, for example, or maybe a Ride check for something fancy like trying to mount up as a free action. But Ride checks just to stay mounted resulting in disaster a full five percent of the time? Be serious! Both RL realism, AND popular fantasy folklore, are replete with characters who ride very often and well with little effort.
devinmdp 06-01-04, 05:46 PM	What's there to pimp? My paladin rules the battlefield at 6th level! He has Divine Might and he will soon take Divine Shield. At 6th level your Paladin can have an AC of around 28-29: +1 full plate (+9) +1 heavy steel shield (+3) Ring of Protection +1 (+1) Amulet of Natural Armour +1 (+1) Dex of 12 (+1) Divine Shield (+4) That's AC 29 right there. Add in Protection from Evil (another +1 deflection) and you are at AC 30 at 6th level with nary a PrC or weird item. And your saves with an 18 CHA will be really nice. Add to that a mount that can attack 3 times, has many hit points, can gain additional feats, and should have an AC somewhere around 25 and you've got quite a tank. Never mind being able to ignore fear and disease and healing 24 points of damage. Paladins don't need to be pimped. They rock already! Devin
SnowbearK 06-02-04, 01:53 AM	Very carefully, preferrably while Dominated or Thralled with an incredibly high DC for...oh, nevermind.
Thorak 06-02-04, 07:10 AM	IMHO, unless you think the LG straightjacket of Paladinhood is utterly neat and perfect for your character, you'll be miles happier playing a fighter in heavy armor and calling him a Knight. And then take whatever PrCs you like to boost the knightliness; Fighters are usually better than any other combat class for early entry to PrCs, due to their bonus feats.
boytbpc 06-04-04, 10:08 AM	Uhhh, be a cavalier. My previous character was a paladin and he wiped up bbeg. Charge a lot, be on a horse a lot, use a lot of reach weapons, detect evil OFTEN (like every five minutes in game), Smite, turn, cast. Damn I miss Walter, none of my party members do though (he was a pretentious ass most of the time). :) I do remember it was very difficult finding how to play him. Paladins are definetly one of the harder classes to play. After a while though, he got to be a lot of fun to play. I'll never have another excuse to pick on a rogue like that again.
Grox 06-04-04, 08:01 PM	First, don't start OFF as a paladin. Be a reformed rogue. Don't stay with rogue very long --- just long enough to get some trapfinding and evasion (both low level abilities --- you are done with rogue somewhere between levels 2 and 4). Your DM doesn't think sneak attack is worthy of a paladin? I disagree but so what! Just make the concession! Sneak attack is a very small and expendable part of the benefit. The rogue levels beef up the paladin's Ref save AND give him evasion. Take your paladin levels, get divine grace, and eventually PrC into Templar and get Mettle. If you don't like Templar there are probably other PrCs you can get it from. You now have Mettle, Evasion, AND killer saves in all three categories. Not to mention the [(8+Int modifier)x4] skill points for a rogue at first level . . . a total number of skill points that you wouldn't make up for in 10 levels of paladin, which is pretty impressive all by itself even if you IGNORE the fact that rogues have so many more class skills. Lastly, the story about how a committed rogue turns into a paladin is easy to make into an interesting RP story (if you care about that sort of thing). I suppose if the character is LG to start with, he may be uncomfortable as a rogue anyway (maybe only felt 'forced into it' due to being poor and underprivileged, or something like that).
Brand Finbuck 06-04-04, 08:34 PM	Originally posted by Grox First, don't start OFF as a paladin. Be a reformed rogue. Don't stay with rogue very long --- just long enough to get some trapfinding and evasion (both low level abilities --- you are done with rogue somewhere between levels 2 and 4). Evasion doesn't work in medium or heavy armor. The evasion won't really help him unless he has a high enough dex bonus to benefit from using a mithril breastplate (which would provide 5 ac and max dex 6, while still allowing evasion to work.) Trapfinding is useful, but most super-dangerous traps have DCs far out of the reach that 4-7 ranks in Search will provide. Your DM doesn't think sneak attack is worthy of a paladin? I disagree but so what! Just make the concession! Sneak attack is a very small and expendable part of the benefit. Sneak attack is somewhat of a misnomer. It doesn't *necessarily* mean that you are prowling behind someone who is unaware ready to stab them in the pancreas, giggle, and then run away. A paladin certainly shouldn't be doing *that*. But you can also use sneak attack by flanking an opponent, nailing them in the first round of combat while they're flat-footed, or by using feint/improved feint. It also depends on whether your DM subscribes to the idea that clearly wicked creatures (demons and devils, etc) deserve some degree of honor in battle. Some DMs will allow a paladin to do most anything that results in evil things dying, some will not. I suppose if the character is LG to start with, he may be uncomfortable as a rogue anyway Rogue does not equate to thief. A rogue can just as easily be a diplomat, acrobat, performer, or other such thing. An aristocratic diplomat might easily elect to become a more militan paladin.
BlaineTog 06-04-04, 09:44 PM	Originally posted by SnowbearK Very carefully, preferrably while Dominated or Thralled with an incredibly high DC for...oh, nevermind. :rofl: :heehee: :bow: :cookie: (<-----------That's for you).
MingT 06-05-04, 09:35 AM	Call me mad, but looking at the 3.5 SRD here and the Palladin looks like a front loaded class to me. So no way would I rule out multi classing to pimp him up a bit. So one level of Paladin for his detect evil and a once a day smite. Two levels of Paladin for divine grace (his best ability). At 2nd level you also get lay on hands, sure it won't improve much if you don't take any more paladin levels... but... well think of it as a free extra in addition to divine grace. Personally I'd stop right there and take fighter levels the rest of the way. As a bonus with this build there is no need to worry about giving yourself a good wisdom score for paladin spells (you never get them), you're just a holy fighter with good charisma, kick ass saves a few minor flavor abilities and a flair for using the paladins holy blade if you are lucky enough to get one. Sure, go on another level of paladin for aura of courage (so so in my mind), and Divine health (a little less so so but still so so) If you must then go on and gain another level for some rather lame turn undead. EVEN another again for a mount that will be better than any common warhorse. But whats the point of going on in paladin after that? Sure keeping up your mount and your lay on hands is nice, but you need good charisma for your lay on hands and your going to be stretching your feats for mounted combat on a (mildly) good steed that you may not always be able to use. Extra smites are nice, but not worth it, remove disease is a joke, and paladin spell progression is somewhat forgetable. So the pimp paladin is basically a 2-5 Pal/X fighter multiclass (no need for any fancey smancey mostly useless anyway prestige classes). Alternately just play a combative Lawful Good cleric with the war domain. Laugh at those fool enough to play weak paladins with codes of conduct stricter even than your alignment and faith already is in return for powers weaker and less fun than your own. Laugh I say! Aside from that the only way to make a straight paladin any good is to milk the populace and all good churches for free stuff everywhere you go (free food, free lodgings, free healing, free info, free hiding places, even equipment discounts, hey everyone LOVES paladins, right?). Or bully your DM for generous house rulings "hey buddy, can my mount be ANY lawful or goodly monster of the correct starting CR/HD".
Stealthy Paladin 06-05-04, 10:31 AM	Thanks for the suggestions. My Paladin is level 4, apperently the former member of The Church, which seriously reminds me of the Spanish Inquistion. Either way, I'm not sure because the campaign involves us remembering nothing of our past as we suffer from amnesia after a tragic accident in a dungeon. Apparently, this is not a Paladin Friendly world and not even his own order accepts him and is actively searching to kill him, as I must have found something I was not supposed to see that revealed their corruption. I was considering multiclassing fighter, but I think there is some special rule that outright strips her of Paladin abilities if she chooses to take other class levels, so that wont work. As for being mounted, I learned from experience that half of all my dice rolls are 1's and I'm beginning to wonder if my Paladin has divine gracelessness or my dice are outright cursed. As for my DM, he knows this and takes full advantage of it, thinking up of all the ways my character ****s up, and there is no logical reasoning with him, Grox. As for my supposed 30 AC potential, it's 17 (+1 dex, +2 lg sheild, +4 chain shirt). Yes, not a single magic item on my person. And as for his moral code, I find it more frequently getting in the way than being flavorful, as almost everything and everyone is corrupt. He does not live in the day when chivalry was in flower, Winternova. Think about it this way: Paladin in Ravenloft. Who accidently says Stroth a lot. It just makes me wonder why I strayed from my favored class of rogue... Cant complain though, I got really high stats: Str 18 Dex 14 Con 15 Wis 16 Int 10 Cha 18 My main reason for choosing Paladin was that they are a fighting class that have lots of magical healing. Perhaps I SHOULD have played a cleric, but I cant complain about that either because my charisma gives me ridiculously high saves. Hmm... new question is: should I rejoin my corrupt order for better or worse and just go with it? I dont think it will hurt his alignment because he must have done it a for a long time already... it would go like this: Me: You, man! Why are you working on this holy day? Peasant: I'm just walking to church, sir! Me: Walking?! That's work if I've ever seen it! Peasant: Please, sir! Me: By the might of whoever I worship, DIE!!! I just shouldn't play paladin, period. In a related story, the literal way to pimp a paladin is by inflicting maximized (if it's possible) Geas/Quest: Prostitution on her. Then when you are done, she can always atone. (Thanks, evil looking guy in black armor who gave me advice in the back alley after I laughed when he slaughtered someone using just his finger!) Yes, I must be criminally insane, but that never hurt anybody. -Stealthy
MingT 06-05-04, 10:51 AM	As far as I read the SRD the standard paladin multiclassing limitation is only that once you take levels in another class you may never again take paladin levels, your paladin abilities however are NOT lost. Hell if you interpret the text generously you could probably take levels of another class before and after paladin levels, just not in between. Of course paladins cannot take some other classes due to alignment restrictions. And remember if you multi class to fighter before reaching paladin spell casting levels there is no reason to place your 16 on wisdom, throw it on another stat and laugh all the way to the bank (unless you really want the additional bonus to will saves).
Votan 06-06-04, 11:39 PM	Originally posted by MingT If you must then go on and gain another level for some rather lame turn undead. If you have complete warrior these lame turn attempts become extremely useful divine feats like divine might (the best one) and divine shield (very useful). Glorious weapon (complete divine) is extremely useful as well. Divine vigor is possibly a good choice as well depending on the circumstances. So I see a minimum of 4 good Paladin levels. Smite evils increases with power by level so it never necessarily ceases being useful but multi-classing starts to be a good choice after 4 levels.
eudas 06-07-04, 11:08 AM	Originally posted by Votan Glorious weapon (complete divine) is extremely useful as well. What does "Glorious Weapon" do? eudas
Votan 06-07-04, 11:27 AM	Originally posted by eudas What does "Glorious Weapon" do? eudas Allows you to give weapons an alignment for punching through DR. It affects every allied weapon in 60 ft. It's a specailty feat but it does reduce the weapon golfbag by one or two weapons (lawful and good).
SmiloDan 06-07-04, 12:08 PM	Also, the paladin skill list isn't bad. Diplomacy, Knowledges, Ride, Sense Motive. Very useful and flavorful. And lots of synergy to Diplomacy.
Galahad the Pure 06-07-04, 01:15 PM	For reference, Glorious Weapon is a standard action to activate and only lasts until the end of your next turn, making it more of an option for a clerical cohort than a paladin. Not to mention the spell bless weapon does the same thing to your weapon and more and lasts longer. Anyway, the best paladin-pimping advice I can give is that you need to find your niche: are you a mounted combat paladin? Or perhaps a footsoldier? Or maybe you want to focus on spellcasting and supernatural abilites? If you're going the mounted combat route, it's pretty straightforward. Take all the obvious feats, squeezing in Divine Might if you've got room for it. Being a gnome is helpful because your warpony will go places that the human's warhorse can't. The bottom line is you're going to PrC in cavalier, which I think paladins can do freely. If you're gutsy, go for hospitaler. The classical footsoldier type is going to have feat selection like this: Power Attack, (X if human) Cleave Divine Might Improved Critical Great Cleave X X You'll probably at least dip into Templar when all is said and done. Just be careful on the multiclass. As trite as it is, this build gets the job done. Consider mixing in Shock Trooper or Combat Brute from Complete Warrior. I'm not a fan of this just because I've used it a lot and have gotten bored of it. Who knows, maybe down the road I'll like it more. Other useful feat options: Combat Reflexes + Hold the Line. It seems like wasted feats, but if you're often leading the party, you'll get charged a lot when you roll low on initiative. Not to mention Combat Reflexes is pretty useful as far as defensive feats go. If you want to focus on or at least accent your supernatural abilities and spellcasting, the best advice I have is to pick carefully what you want to use. If you're going to imagine yourself with your Divine Shield up, plus casting bless weapon, protection from evil, and divine favor, that's 4 rounds of combat you're using for self-buffs. By the time you're done buffing, there won't be anything left to smite. You're better off picking one spell or ability which will help you the most. Improved Critical meshes very well with bless weapon, since it is mathematically a lot like having keen and improved critical stacking, depending on your opponent's AC. (There's a blessed magical enhancement in the Book of Exalted Deeds which makes your weapon have the spell permanently for +1 market modifier.) Once you buy a ring of protection, the magic circle against evil line of spells stops being as useful (both are deflection bonuses). Divine favor is great, but with a paladin's low caster level, you're better off spending the round fighting than casting the spells. If you can get it off before combat or as a free action, good. The feat Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Divine will be awesome for your paladin to improve his caster level. That's an extra +1 on your greater magic weapon and an extra 4 hours on the duration. Only bad side is that you need 4 ranks in Spellcraft. Not to mention you'd be better off picking Divine Might or Improved Critical, most of the time. Sudden Still Spell from the Minis Handbook is good for a paladin too. Say what you want about sudden metamagic, this feat rocks if you've got your hands full with your sword and shield and you positively need to get a spell off. This would have been gold when freedom of movement was on the paladin's spell list. Augment Healing and Spontaneous Healing from Complete Divine are money if you want to go the support route.
underpantsgnome 06-07-04, 11:11 PM	If you play 3.5, I would suggest getting Improved Shield Bash and TWF. I had a Pally type that at 10th level could put out over 100 damage consistantly in melee... every round. If you are in 3e, You could still pick up this combo, but you would have to waste extra feat slots and that may or may not be worth it.
underpantsgnome 06-07-04, 11:11 PM	*stomps out the double post*
bitnine 06-07-04, 11:26 PM	Well, first you make him your - eh, nevermind. If you go for a mounted combatant route, I'd definately (eventually) look into getting a very nice mount with the Leadership feat. At higher levels, something like a templated pegasus can be real handy to have. Speaking of mounts, remember that in 3.5 a rider is assumed to be in every square that his mount is, so if you've got a large mount and are yourself enlarged, you threaten a good number of squares.
devinmdp 06-08-04, 01:39 PM	"Speaking of mounts, remember that in 3.5 a rider is assumed to be in every square that his mount is, so if you've got a large mount and are yourself enlarged, you threaten a good number of squares." IMO this is a wash. Being in all those squares also means it's easier to target you with area spells, you can be attacked and flanked easier, et al. Devin