Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Demetri_Knighthawk 01-29-07, 01:30 AM	My DM is letting me play a lawful evil dwarven paladin, dont ask, with a group of CN & LN other players, he wont tell me much more than that we are starting the game as merc's. Initaly I was just going to play him as a 'starting' 2 dimensional "you pay, I'll slay" character. Any helpfull ideas?
Boshi 01-29-07, 01:44 AM	Standard way to do it is to have a strict code of honor/conduct. Not stuff like "don't kick puppies" but things like "don't kill them if there's no challenge to it" or "don't use poison, it's better to hack their head off" or "always be polite to worthy opponents before you kill them"
Zinegata 01-29-07, 01:45 AM	Lawful Evil is all about having a total disregard for sentient life, but within limits. The said characters prefers that he encounters situations where he can kill stuff mercilessly while still following his Code of Conduct, and kinda grumbles when he/she is barred from killing due to his/her CoC (but he/she won't kill in that situation - following the CoC is important for an LE. If it's not, the character is more NE or CE). A character that kills because it's part of the Code of Conduct but doesn't actually like the killing itself is more LN or LG. As an example, let me show three versions of an Inquisitor I usually play or NPC in most of my games. She has three versions, one LG, one LN, and one LE. The LG version will NEVER kill anyone just for the heck of it. She will investigate things thoroughly and try to bring the criminal in alive (if possible). Even if she kills the criminal in the process, she'll feel sorry for the dead criminal and his/her family. The LN version will never kill anyone just for the heck of it either. Like the LG version, she'll investigate things thoroughly and try to bring the criminal in alive, if possible. If the criminal resists and is killed, however, the LN version won't be sorry for the criminal. As far as she is concerned, she gave the criminal a chance, and e didn't take it. The LE version, however, won't kill anyone just for the heck of it, but wishes that she can. She'll impatiently go through the motions of collecting evidence so she can arrest a criminal, but when she makes the arrest she secretly hopes that the criminal resists so she has an excuse to blast him to smithereens. And if the criminal does resist, she'll probably make the death really slow and painful (within the limits of the law), and mock the family of the dead criminal for "letting their loved one turn out so bad". Of course, your LE mileage may vary, but that's generally how I play my LEs.
Boshi 01-29-07, 02:00 AM	LE CAN be played that way but you don't have to havea LE that just goes through the motions. A LG character likes the CoC because it helps people, a LE character likes the CoC even if it hurts people. Think Inquisitors who are truly dedicated to what they're doing. The scariest LE are those that are SURE they're LG.
JulesCARV 01-29-07, 02:43 AM	There are many different ways of playing each alignment. A character concept cannot be derived from an alignment: the process goes in the opposite direction. The question is, do you have a character concept, and either think that it might already be lawful evil but would just like some advice, or do you have a character concept that you think isn't quite LE, and want help on how to modify it to make it LE, or do you not have a character concept at all, and would just like some sample ideas for LE dwarf paladins?
Black Kitten 01-29-07, 03:35 AM	I think LE becomes a lot more fun if you bring them forward as nice people. LE to me is a 'selfish' LG character, who is very willing to put his own wellbeing in front of everyone else. There is always a form of self interest in his actions, either directly of indirectly. For example, this kind of character would happily join a crusade against the evil undead, without promised payment, at great risk of his own life for the rest of the community just so he could get his hands on goodwill and powerful magic items. This goodwill he could then exploit slyly to get his way around things he wouldn't normally get away with. With other words, he doesn't care he saved the community, he cares for the money, goodwill and magic he gained through going on that crusade. And when such characters become more powerful, they also become more dangerous, want to get away with more and so gain what s/he wants to achieve... and everyone who gets in his/her way will pay for doing so.
Nerana 01-29-07, 04:08 AM	LE is actually a fairly diverse alignment. My most successful LE characters, however, are very driven people. They're willing to do whatever it takes to achieve their goals, and they do so in a methodical, often rational way. They have a sense of honor, typically--and often, they're devoted to a certain concept. For instance, an LE deposed royal could easily care greatly for her people, and for making her empire--when she gets it back--the prime nation in the world. She does this in part because she feels it's her duty, and in part because she likes power. She has a healthy dose of self-interest, and if it serves her goals, she doesn't hesitate to use evil means. Essentially, her enemies--or those that are beneath her in the 'hierarchy', often--simply register as non-persons to her. She's very polite and dutiful towards those she views as worthy, but if you're in her way and she has a justification for removing you.... It was nice knowing you.
Sereno 01-29-07, 11:44 AM	The hallmark of LE is ruthlessness. There is nothing that an LE PC won't do to achieve their goals. They are like to be overbearing and generally supremacist (perhaps racial or "class-ial") and quite likely to feel entitled to things. The LE is generally surprised by things like compassion. "What do you mean what will happen to the goblins? They'll die to get us into that temple, of course!"
Ace_of_Diamonds 01-29-07, 12:12 PM	Lawful evil, to me, epitomizes looking out for number one but not causing great disturbances. A LE person would swindle you out of your money, lie, and cheat, but wouldn't start a bar fight. LE, for the most part, is the easiest evil character to get along with. A Lawful Evil person probably doesn't care about you, unless you're worth something to him. Thinks about himself, and only himself, in any given situation. Probably greedy, and/or money-motivated. Anything probably has a price for him. Also, I played LE once (I usually DM), and I wasn't shy of causing trouble with getting along with other party members; I was generally just a jerk to everyone (party member or not). But I never resorted to violence. I'd insult them, make threatening gestures, or challenge them to "bring it" but vowed to myself that I'd only attack a party member if they attacked me first (and no one ever did). Come to think of it, if a party member had ever attacked me, I'd probably only fight back to subdue/incapacitate, and wouldn't fight lethally. On the other hand, I was perfectly willing to work with party members when situations called for teamwork, i.e. most combat situations.
Tony Vargas 01-29-07, 03:32 PM	You might try thinking abou the he got to be LE. Did he start out good and get ground down by the horrors of war? Or did he start out chaotic and over time learn to temper his emotions and work with others to advance himself? Either is possible for a mercenary, but each puts the character on a very different path...
RainerNader 01-29-07, 04:00 PM	To me Lawful Evil is about 'working the system.' Why bother trying to take over an empire when you can bend the existing laws to get yourself elected?
Alex_ 01-29-07, 04:07 PM	How I play Lawful Evil... As a lawful character, you view the world ias a large orderly machine. Everything is predictable because at some point, whether through logical/mathmatic principles, the will of a higher power, or some other means, an objective and unquestionable set of laws and systems was set in place. You follow those laws. You create plans, follow them accordingly, and try not to deviate from them as much as possible. You know how the world works, and it is more predictable and absolute than others realize. As an evil character, you have little compassion for the general well beings or even the lives of others. If you want something, people cannot stand in your way without getting hurt. So by combining the 2, I end up a person who's generally cold blooded and heartless, but one who views the world methodically. When they perform an evil act, they don't do it sudden act of passion, or because it seems like a good idea right then. They do it because it was part of their intent all along, or it's to protect what they see as an established order or series of rules/laws.
Puca 01-29-07, 04:31 PM	A lawful evil character cares about rules, order, hierarchy etc, but unlike a LG character, who submits to an outside standard of right, a LE character writes his own, and typically, he writes it to favor himself. Most lawfuls think someone should be in charge; often the “best qualified.” Lawful Evil does too, but they define “best” in such a way that it matches themselves. A physically powerful person would think that the strongest is best suited to rule. A highly intelligent, the smartest. In play, look at the traits you have, and then regard them as the best traits to have. The traits you dont, treat as less important, if not worthless.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 01-29-07, 04:44 PM	Hmm... there are many ways to pull off LE. This is my personal favorite. At first glance, they appear to be LG. They salute their CO's, follow orders well, work well with others and are good leaders. However, they are completely ruthless. If you are slowing things down, you're better off dead. They have a code of "ethics" but they will do anything to get the job done. They are generally unsympathetic to the frivolous wants of others and if they are your subordinates, you may even punish them for daring to complain. Example: One of your soldiers is thirsty. If it is the appropriate time, direct him towards the person who has water (or whatever). One of your soldiers complains that his armor is chafing him, order him flogged to take his mind off of it. You are not necessarily capricious, but you can be very cruel and unforgiving. Not necessarily sadistic, but you run a painfully tight ship. Hope that helps! The Count :dragon:
demonic_dante 01-29-07, 10:22 PM	an easy way to play lawful evil is someone who traffics with devils, see fiendish codex 2 for more info. However, that isn't the best way, I would go with ruthless. Funny how lawful evil can seem like lawful good until there is a knife in your back.
Regular_K 01-29-07, 10:26 PM	An extreme racist! Stupid pointy ears with their heads always up their arce because they think they live forever. They won't live forever when I'm done with them. And don't even get me started on those pracing, dancing, hand holding, shrimpy gnomes!
Pidmon 01-29-07, 11:20 PM	Along the lines of this and another thread - who thinks Evil (or just plain evil) characters can have romance, or can feel love? If not, why not? Would love be part of redemption, or can love have an evil side too? I ask mainly because I've got a couple evil players in a full-blown adventure path, and I'm a bit of a romanticized git, so I think even the first example of evil they come across could be redeemed or a lover of a PC.
Zinegata 01-30-07, 12:33 AM	Along the lines of this and another thread - who thinks Evil (or just plain evil) characters can have romance, or can feel love? If not, why not? Would love be part of redemption, or can love have an evil side too? I ask mainly because I've got a couple evil players in a full-blown adventure path, and I'm a bit of a romanticized git, so I think even the first example of evil they come across could be redeemed or a lover of a PC. I once started a thread that asked "Can an Evil Witch Marry a Paladin?" and said explicitly that they both truly loved each other. So, I guess you know where I stand :D. Seriously though, I do believe that an Evil person can nonetheless feel true love towards another person. Evil is about not respecting the sanctity of sentient life the majority of the time. Even if said Evil person loved one particular person, there's still a world out there that he/she can hate, torture, and murder. Also, love doesn't necessarily have to be about redemption. There's nothing against a Lawful Good person and a Lawful Evil one from falling in love with one another. They will have to just "agree to disagree" regarding their moral philosophies. If Democrats and Republicans can marry in the real world (not to mention Socialists and Capitalists), why not Good & Evil in D&D?
Pidmon 01-30-07, 12:51 AM	They will have to just "agree to disagree" regarding their moral philosophies. If Democrats and Republicans can marry in the real world (not to mention Socialists and Capitalists), why not Good & Evil in D&D? I wouldn't call good and evil that far apart. :P But in regards to 'an evil side of love'...? What do you think?
Alten_Freehands 01-30-07, 12:57 AM	Prime examples of LE are Magneto from X3. He had HIS agenda and had zero ime for anything unrelated. Mutants were perfect to him flawless yet humans were less than animals to him. The villian from Die Hard 3, he wanted revenge and wouldn't be stopped. He created a twisted scavenger hunt and wouldn't tolerate any deterence from the rules he set in place. Bill from the Kill Bill movies was one of the most well done LE characters I'v ever seen. LE characters are excellent at spin. They are honorable, noble even, usually very charismatic as well, cunning and usually very subtle. They are well studied in their field and about their goals. If you can earn their respect they can be your'e best friend, in the world, they will die for a cause they believe in. I love rping LE. It is so multi faceted, it is all the other alignments rolled into one.
Zinegata 01-30-07, 01:00 AM	But in regards to 'an evil side of love'...? What do you think? There can be an evil side of love, if for the sake of love you choose to start disregarding the sanctity of other sentient beings. That being said, an Evil person can love without resorting to the evil side of love.
Zinegata 01-30-07, 01:03 AM	Prime examples of LE are Magneto from X3. He had HIS agenda and had zero ime for anything unrelated. Mutants were perfect to him flawless yet humans were less than animals to him. I dunno, I think Magneto's appeal stems more from the fact that you can understand why he's Evil. Genocidal plans aside, Magneto actually seems to be a fairly decent person. And even then, you can somewhat understand his genocidal tendencies because of what he experienced during the Holocaust. The best villains in a story or RPG are the sort of villains that you find difficult to condemn.
Skrillex 01-30-07, 01:14 AM	I would play it as the 'anti-hero', do the right thing... In the wrong way. Example: Sure I'll help you get out of that trap, if you pay me 300 gold pieces.
Deamoclese 01-30-07, 04:14 AM	Look at almost any dictator in human history, and they're LE. Julius Caesar, lawful evil - upheld what he felt was the interest of Rome and its people, but butchered countless "barbarians" to expand Rome's wealth and land. Adolph Hitler - Dutifully believed he was serving the interests of all German people by conquering europe, but murdering countless millions and committed genocide. Saddam Hussein - Upheld law and order under his reign. Theft was incredibly low, murder among citizens was uncommon - rules were followed. They were followed though because Hussein and his administration butchered, killed, exterminated anyone who would oppose him. Most democracies can be typically seen as LN. (I know most people will say that democracy's have lots of corruption so how could they be Lawful... but the premise remains, democratic leaderships impose rules and order, but do so without imposing suffering or hardship on the majority of the population). LG does not exist in reality - except in individuals. (any human being that is LG could never be in a position of leadership, the Good aspect prevents the necessity of the desire for power/authority. Don't mistake this for LN rulers who THINK they are LG "I want to serve the people" - they still have personal interests involved, preventing them from being truly LG. A LG person helps keep in check a LN ruler though, trying to sway them from causing distress to the populace.) Anyhow, those are the guidelines I've used for LE, LN npcs - they seem to make sense to me and my players.
WayneTheGame 01-30-07, 09:33 AM	Speaking as someone who is essentially Lawful Evil in real life (I have issues, I know...): Lawful Evil is the "good" evil, by which i mean you aren't a psychopath (CE) or a backstabber (NE), just a selfish bastard. You don't necessarily NOT care about others.. you just put your own well-being higher on the totem pole and if you have to hurt others to achieve your own goals, then so be it; others are secondary to yourself, always. You don't actively SEEK to hurt others, just don't care if you have to. You also aren't concerned with the lives of other people.. if a beggar is bleeding from an attack in front of you, who cares? Don't stop to help.. he's nothing to you anyway, and you have better things to do. Your own time and desires are far superior to the needs of others. If you can learn something from someone and then surpass them with that knowledge, do it! You can show compassion to your close friends, but any strangers are little more than cattle and meaningless to you. Follow the laws of man because you have to, not because you want to. Lie, cheat and steal if necessary to achieve your goals (and if you can do it without being caught)
Ventilatory_Threshold 01-30-07, 10:18 AM	Speaking as someone who is essentially Lawful Evil in real life (I have issues, I know...): Just be happy that you're open about it, like me (though I fit the description of Chaotic Evil, really). To answer the original question: I don't. I have no ability whatsoever to roleplay Lawful types. They confuse and infuriate me.
Undercover 01-30-07, 10:50 AM	Another example of Lawful Evil is (or was, before the last movies) Darth Vader. Methodical, cold, ruthless, and served the empire dutifuly. If you have read A Song of Ice and Fire, Lannister's motto put them in the LE category as well "A Lannister always pays his debts", even (or especially) if it involves treason, murdering, raping, pillaging and burning. They are capable of saving or killing their own families - the Kingslayer rescued his brother Tyrion, who murders their father later in the same chapter/scene. Tyrion would send assassins against those who raped women and beat children, but didn't mind his men killing someone on their own unless it's someone important. Reason being he was forced, by his father, to watch his wife being raped by 50 soldiers. His father's way of educating his son that non-noble women were all prostitutes. Most of the kingsguard were LE too. Beating, raping and killing anyone at their king's pleasure. Go for Machiavelli's "The Prince" and you can't go wrong. Ally yourself with the strongest, destroy and conquer the weak. Do not make threats and hold your hand at punishments, but if you do kill the entire family of the offender, burn his properties and salt his lands. Be diplomatic and a good company. Everyone must love and fear you.
Puca 01-30-07, 11:35 AM	But if you cannot do both, it is better to be feared. Along the lines of this and another thread - who thinks Evil (or just plain evil) characters can have romance, or can feel love? If not, why not? Short answer: No. Love is a very ambiguous term. Just this morning, I was discussing with an employee our "love" of coffee. I love it. I desire it. I feel better when I have it. I miss it when it is gone. Those statements are all about me. Im not just the grammatical subject; Im the center of the relationship. If coffee stopped making me feel good, my feelings for it would cease. Evil can love in exactly that way. Evil can love another person in exactly that same way, but you have to see it for what it is: no matter what it looks like from the outside, it is all about the I. An Evil person can love another. I desire that person. I feel better when that person is around. I miss that person when they are gone. But love, it this sense, is the same as it is for me and my coffee. He loves the other because of how they make him feel. It is all about him. It is entirely self-centered and selfish. ______________________________ Now, everyone loves something that way. Maybe coffee or chicken wings or watching “American Idol.” But do they “love” it, or is that just a common hyperbole for “like” or “enjoy?” When we say “love” in the sense of loving another human being, like the love for a spouse, a parent, or a child, we dont mean “like a lot” or “enjoy.” This isnt a selfish relationship. In fact, it is exactly the opposite: completely selfless. (At least, as an ideal.) In fact, it is at precisely the moments when we dont “enjoy” our kids or even particularly “like” them that we see this in action. True love is a feeling of unity. It is a relationship between two people where the relationship is more important than you as an individual. Evil is incapable of this because, for evil, there isnt anything more important than itself. Would love be part of redemption, or can love have an evil side too?As soon as you love something more than yourself, you are capable of loving something more than yourself. You are on the path to redemption.
Alex_ 01-30-07, 11:47 AM	Well said Puca. IMO, evil, nor goodness, is an alignment that should be calously thrown about when describing characters. The vast majority of PCs I've seen have worldviews that are more realistic and generally more appropriate for a neutral alignment. So for my characters and NPCs, I almost always use some form of neutral, with good and evil representing the trully selfless and the truely selfish. Not goody 2-shoes, or Snidely Whiplash style charicatures, but still people harboring very radical ideas. I think races that have a tendancy towards a particular alignment other than neutral are intended to have rather alien ways of thought.
Puca 01-30-07, 12:21 PM	Thanks. To be above board, that was a lot of Hegel and only a very little me. I too think most people are neutral, in the sense that they are mostly balanced between selfishness and selflessness. Few are always only one or the other. When it comes to racial alignments, I think it comes down to values. We are often selfish, but we still tend to value seflessness. An "evil race" would not.
Leo 01-30-07, 02:07 PM	Lawfull evil is the kind of cold, self controled bad guy. He's the corrupt guard. He's the evil politician. He seeks to hurt While a chaotic evil does evil because he feels to, and a neutral evil does evil when he can get away with it, a lawfull evil carefully plans before doing evil. He never acts recklessly. He observes his oponents for as long as necessary untill finding a weak point. He pretends to be a good guy untill a backstab opotunity appears. He will behave like a perfect citizen so he can rise in the society and do great harm from there.
Tzor 01-30-07, 03:34 PM	Here's how I play lawful evil. Power: Power is everything. Being powerful is my goal. Discipline: True power can only be obtained through discipline. Thus while the true focus of evil is the self and improving the self, the lawul evil person sees going against law as in effect going against self because the true path to power is only through discipline, the true use of power is that of focused power.
Deamoclese 01-30-07, 05:30 PM	Just be happy that you're open about it, like me (though I fit the description of Chaotic Evil, really). You run around killing people for laughs, throwing babies in fires and bathe in the blood of your victims? Somebody find out where this man lives and call the police! (you realize Chaotic evil means you're literally insane and kill / steal / cause suffering because it suits and pleases you? I highly doubt you understand what CE is - you're likely LE like the other poster mentioned. Even a drug dealer / smuggler isn't CE evil - they're NE... a CE person lacks the respect for rank, authority and poisition within the criminal underground - drug kings would never recruit such a person, they wouldn't trust their merchandise with them)
Timespike 01-30-07, 05:48 PM	Take a lawful good person, like a paladin. Now remove the following and all traces thereof completely from their personality: Mercy Empathy Compassion Kindness An LE character is disciplined, merciless, humorless, cold, hard, and brutal. the law is a weapon, and when you're holding a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Use whatever twisted interpretation of honor, law, policy, or conduct that screws whoever you're dealing with most. If someone appeals, begs for mercy or resists, punish them worse for causing trouble. Be everybody's worst nightmares about the IRS, but with torture and death available as easy options.
Ceirnian 01-30-07, 06:54 PM	It just so happens that my next character will be Lawful Evil, and I have plans on how to play him. Here are a few things I've come up with. -Be nice to people to the point of seeming lawful goodness. (explained more thoroughly throughout this post) There is no reason to go around being a jackass for the hell of it. That just makes people less likely to help you in the future. -Help people if there is even an abstract reward to it. "Sure I'll go take out that marauding ogre band for the town! No no I don't expect any payment, the fact that you all will be safe is good enough for me!" Meanwhile in the back of your mind you know for a fact that doing this will put you in a great light with the town which has many benefits. Your method of killing the ogres involves poisoning their food supply and torturing them for having the nerve to attack innocent civilians. They brought this on themselves! On the flip side, if the town treated him like ass he would chuckle at their problems. -If someone screws you over, be absolutely ruthless in taking vengeance. Let's say an npc betrays the party and puts you in a very unfavorable situation. Later on after you escape/defeat whatever it is, you go and hunt the person down. You then procede to capture his entire family and murder them while he is tied up all the while preaching how he brought this on himself. You make sure he dies a slow death. This could also work for criminals who do harsh things like rape (except in this case I probably wouldn't murder his family... unless he raped someone I knew/liked). That's a brief rundown of how I plan to make the character think. Enjoys interacting with people and doesn't really consider people 'below him' for the most part. Yet when it comes to those who break his codes he will go all out in dealing with them.
Rivelstraz 01-30-07, 07:13 PM	LE is my favoriute alignment. Sadly I haven't been able to play any, but most of my BBEGs are LE. I like them the tyrant style. Weak people are there to live under the oppresive hand of the powerful ones. Don't waste time with those that don't matter a bit and make sure you show the rest who has the power (blood & often are the keywords for this) and serve those who are above you. Show no mercy, no emotions, there's no other goal than increasing your own [power, wealth, etc.]
High Octane 01-30-07, 07:14 PM	I have a dwarf warrior-type in a first edition campaign who is lawful evil. The way I play him is martially obsessive, overly disciplined, and loves pain (both taking it and dishing it out). Destroying the weak and driving out weakness in general is his goal. He is sadistic, masochistic, cruel, and overall bloodthirsty but extremely disciplined and willing to take orders. I also made him a vegetarian.
Aryxbez 01-30-07, 07:17 PM	My way would be obeying law and be evil at the same time. Do evil things within my own honor code and the law sort of. Probably abuse any loophole in the law. An example of an evil yet obeying law act for me: paying magical items in copper pieces!!
Chrono Nexus 01-30-07, 07:22 PM	Watch the movie Doom. The leader of the platoon slowly reveals himself to have a lawful evil alignment as the plot progresses. In fact, it was the best example of Lawful Evil I've ever seen in a movie.
Alex_ 01-30-07, 07:23 PM	An example of an evil yet obeying law act for me: paying magical items in copper pieces!! After spending the previous hour having the shop clerk try to find "that magic weapon that does the thing", the other 30 minutes debating the price, another 20 minutes after you decided you wanted another similar-but different magical item, and then settling on something completely different.
High Octane 01-30-07, 07:28 PM	Watch the movie Doom. The leader of the platoon slowly reveals himself to have a lawful evil alignment as the plot progresses. In fact, it was the best example of Lawful Evil I've ever seen in a movie. The Rock?
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 01-30-07, 07:32 PM	Watch the movie Doom. The leader of the platoon slowly reveals himself to have a lawful evil alignment as the plot progresses. In fact, it was the best example of Lawful Evil I've ever seen in a movie. Yes, he degenerates even further, becoming CE, IMHO. However, you are right. He is a great example of LE. See also, Darth Vader.
Aryxbez 01-30-07, 08:29 PM	After spending the previous hour having the shop clerk try to find "that magic weapon that does the thing", the other 30 minutes debating the price, another 20 minutes after you decided you wanted another similar-but different magical item, and then settling on something completely different. Yes, that is how to play the Lawful Evil!
High Octane 01-30-07, 10:42 PM	After spending the previous hour having the shop clerk try to find "that magic weapon that does the thing", the other 30 minutes debating the price, another 20 minutes after you decided you wanted another similar-but different magical item, and then settling on something completely different. No thats Lawful OLD.
BluEnigma 01-30-07, 11:09 PM	Hehe... I'm getting brainpictures of Tex from Red vs. Blue. "Hey Tex, would you rip Tucker's arms off if we paid you?" "...Which one's Tucker?"
CaptainPicard 01-31-07, 01:22 AM	You run around killing people for laughs, throwing babies in fires and bathe in the blood of your victims? Somebody find out where this man lives and call the police! (you realize Chaotic evil means you're literally insane and kill / steal / cause suffering because it suits and pleases you? I highly doubt you understand what CE is - you're likely LE like the other poster mentioned. Even a drug dealer / smuggler isn't CE evil - they're NE... a CE person lacks the respect for rank, authority and poisition within the criminal underground - drug kings would never recruit such a person, they wouldn't trust their merchandise with them) Chaotic Evil is not this, although this is Chaotic Evil. Chaotic Evil does not make you a bloodthirsty maniac, it just means that you have no respect for life, order, or really anything but yourself. Sure, if you are a serial killer or a mass murderer who derives pleasure from slaughtering others, you're probably Chaotic Evil, but you don't have to do this. Anyway, back on topic, my current Lawful Evil character is what he is because he has a complex hierarchy of things in his head that puts him above everyone else around him, and he makes it very clear to them all that he looks down on them and thinks they are worse than the dirt they walk on. In order for him to respect you, you pretty much need to be a Lawful Neutral/Evil Male Human Swordsage from his home country, and be a noble.
Always-Late 01-31-07, 02:32 AM	He is honorable in the open, doesn't backstab, and steals everything.
DoctorRomulus 01-31-07, 02:27 PM	Very Very Carefully :D :D
Kohdok 01-31-07, 02:37 PM	I love to design evil characters that can get along well enough with good-aligned parties. Hey, somebody needs to life that Book of Vile Darkness, right? Every functional party needs an evil member. Here's how I play LE: Lawful Evil characters think of themselves very highly and set out a strict set of standards that they expect the other party members to follow to the upmost letter. Lawful Evil characters love to be in charge and often portray themselves as the party leader, whether their Charisma is sixteen or six. Money is the most important thing to them and any way they can get it is just fine, but they tend to make a binding contract to ensure that every last copper is gained. LE characters work well in structured groups but love to hog the glory, claiming that their genius was what allowed the party to win. Snobby and full of themselves, LE characters in a good party can be fun, but also annoying.
WhiteRaven810 01-31-07, 09:00 PM	When encountering one Hit Dice Commoner's I enslave rather then slaughter.
Zinegata 01-31-07, 09:28 PM	An Evil person can love another. I desire that person. I feel better when that person is around. I miss that person when they are gone. But love, it this sense, is the same as it is for me and my coffee. He loves the other because of how they make him feel. It is all about him. It is entirely self-centered and selfish. There's just one small problem with your statement. Evil needn't be selfish. A character can be a martyr, who sacrifices virtually everything (including himself/herself) for a person he/she loves, and yet still be completely Evil. Don't believe me? Then how can one describe the case of a "hero" who sacrifices himself, his country, and thousands of innocent men, women, and children just to save the woman he loves? He sacrificed everything. He has condemned his name forever as that of a mass-murderer. Yet his actions were unquestionably selfless - he gave up everything - his life, his morals, his name - all for the sake of love. Yet the man is unquestionably Evil for killing so many innocents. Evil is not about loving oneself more than others. Evil is the failure to care about the well-being of others. The two do not necessarily go hand-in-hand.
Chrono Nexus 02-01-07, 12:20 AM	The Rock? No the Rock is not evil:P ...Well, maybe.
mtrpcic 02-01-07, 12:37 AM	Well this is how I play, and my 'view' of Lawful Evil: Lawful Evil does NOT mean that you horde all the loot, or act cocky to your fellow players in game. In all honesty, you might even give up your share of the loot. Lawful Evil means that you have a plan set (possibly, to become the strongest of your class, for example). You could, in effect, do some GOOD things to better your evil cause. Don't go overboard though. You still like killing, and in battle is where you shine. Basically, you'll do whatever to reach your goals, even if it means doing something that isn't often viewed as strictly 'evil'
PainTrain 02-01-07, 01:13 AM	Power is an ends to itself, Law is an illusion there is only strength. To me LE is somone what is determined to be lawful is determined by whoever is in charge. The rules and laws that govern society are subjective, they are rooted in raw power, whether it be military strength, political influence, or individual might. The LE character specializes in bending the rules in existing systems in order to satisfy their excessive and greedy desires. He ultimately wishes to replace the current system with one that suits him and best satisfy his selfish needs. He has no qualms about knocking people off once in a while, but it must be done with purpose, not random slaughter, nor over petty thievary. Lawful good to me is somone who views law deriving its validation from justice, which they believe to be universal, and existant independent of human thought
Puca 02-01-07, 10:55 AM	Don't believe me? Then how can one describe the case of a "hero" who sacrifices himself, his country, and thousands of innocent men, women, and children just to save the woman he loves?I defined evil as selfish. Placing the self above all other things. The fact is, this scenario is not, necessarily, love. But even if the love the “hero” feels is true and genuine: Yet the man is unquestionably Evil for killing so many innocents.No, he unquestionably did something evil. Big difference. It is plausible that a good person could love, and at the prospect of losing that, decide to do something evil. He could even rationalize it by saying that it was “good” that lead him to do the evil thing. A good person can still commit an evil act. At the absolute best, thats all youve described. He sacrificed everything.No, the one thing he decided was more important, the one thing he really, really wanted above all else is still there. Sacrificing your self is not the same as selflessness. Suicide is, can be, selfish. To get my love back, I let thousands of others, others who themselves are the loved ones others, die. Ive basically decided that my lover is more important than all of yours. Yeah, thats still selfish. Evil is not about loving oneself more than others. Evil is the failure to care about the well-being of others. The two do not necessarily go hand-in-hand.The two are synonymous.
LCD2YOU 02-01-07, 11:08 AM	Eh, I play LE as a great guy. someone you want as a friend. He knows where to go and what to do to "get things done". He respects the law and authority. He is not interested in overthrowing the status quo, just removing the weak from their position of power and usrping the office for their own. They are a good friend who'll do a lot for his friends but will not hesitate to return treachery with lethal force. He's the guy that smiles at you and let's you know that a friend of his is someone who'll go far. He may even help his friends over himself as he believes that one day they may be in a position of power to promote them up. Remember the lethal force and treachery thing though. He is not a killer (directly unless he really needs to do it), has scruples and lets or rather pays "others" do "what needs to be done." He is not a rabid CE dog nor an unscrupulous NE coniver. His word is his word. He actually enjoys the company of "good" people as he knows deep down they are the least likely to betray him. That's how I play LE: Smart Cares about society (he feels it would be so much better if he were in charge) Cares for his friends Generous with help when his friends need it Actually prefers "Good" over evil people
Limousine_Liberal 02-01-07, 03:48 PM	First blush...the way I'd tend to play a lawful evil character as one devoted to a particular cause or group, but entirely willing to commit evil acts to further the goals and interests of that cause/group. A LE knight in service to an emperor, for example, might be perfectly willing to murder those who challenge the Empire--even if those people pose no overt threat of violence--or those who hold information that might embarrass the power structure. He'd also be very interested in moving up within the organizations he serves and likewise willing to kill and maim those who stand in his way, so long as he can do so within the confines of his own sense of loyalty and honor. Also, there'd be nothing approaching "mercy" for those who violate his standards. Underlings who are disloyal, for example, or fellow knights who fail to do what needs to be done to protect the Empire would be dealt with as harshly as the relevant rules allow. There are many, many ways to play LE, but that's always the sort of "archetype" that occurs to me first...the honorable and principled character willing--even "happy"--to use evil means to get ahead and to help those to whom he owes his fealty.
Daffydd ap Hywell 02-01-07, 04:40 PM	In a recent campaign, I was playing a LE centaur(tiefling) ranger1/wiz 14. Favored enemy: Humans. Goal: Remove humanity from the face of the planet. He enjoyed inflicting pain and suffering, but only exercised the ability to further his goal. He didn't hesitate to use lethal force on any obstacle (after all, he was an adventurer). In fact, to further his goal, he even travelled with a human paladin for a time. Part of the story was to see if the human could, by his examples, turn the centaur from his goal. When the DM decided to up and vanish, that had not happened. He planned, he was more than willing to work with others to accomplish his goal, he would even be nice if it progressed the mission. The biggest mark that showed he was Evil was his methods and that he enjoyed the damage he inflicted. If his alignment changed significantly, his goal probably wouldn't change, but his methods quite probably would.
LCD2YOU 02-01-07, 05:25 PM	In other words, LE are not the typical "evil" that so many associate as being evil. A LE character can, and often does, think they are always doing the "greater good". They can even follow Good Gods and Goddesses thinking they are doing right for their deity. What a "good acting" LE person can be is someone who leans on others, literally beating them if they are "lesser". He may not overtly show it, but some people are beneath him as to be non-entities who can be killed if they don't obey. He's the guy that kills the merchant because he or his friends was cheated and he took the "law into his own hands". He has a very rigid idea of what needs to be done and he is generally very regimented. The best played LE, IMHO, are those that the others never expect to be evil. Yeah, this person has killed for what others may not see as a reason, but in his mind it was all very correct and was the RIGHT thing to do. They have scruples. They will never kill a child but they don't really feel the need to lift a finger to help the child either. If someone is attacked for no reason or robbery in the streets, that person must be caught and given a very harsh punishment. One could argue that medieval society was incrediby LE. The heirarchies were fixed and the only thing that could free you from "fighting against your betters" was to win.
Mousse 02-01-07, 06:03 PM	Personally, I think it bears some remembering that alignment is only a general tendency in action. People can regularly act outside of their alignment, and do strange things. Generally speaking though, out of curiousity, what alignment would you declare this character? He's a generally nice guy, who tends to help people out, even going out of the way. He's a romantic. He has a rather strict code not to harm innocents or the defenseless, but he doesn't hold anything back in a real fight, and rarely shows mercy. But under it all, he feels a certain sickness in the corruption of the world, and is idly gathering together a group of good people and innocents so that he can purge the world and start it anew. Remake Eden, as it were.
LCD2YOU 02-01-07, 06:21 PM	Mousse, Need more info. You say he rarely shows mercy in a fight as he holds nothing back. Nothing as in he'll use poisons, disease and even summoned outsiders (especially the evil type), burn crops, etc., in a fight? As for rarely showing mercy, is that due to his only going after the worst of the worst? Beings and people who are known to feign surrendering and then gut their kind-hearted captors? But if "holds nothing back" means he'll trip, throw sand in the face, etc., and he goes after the worst of the worst, I say he can still be LG, perhaps NG, as he wants to organize opposition to the rot he sees.
Mousse 02-01-07, 07:02 PM	LCD, Sorry, posted in haste, so probably didn't fill out details as well as I could. 1. He will take any means as long as he believes they won't cause harm (at least, permanently) to anyone he considers an innocent or people he concerns himself with. So those methods are fair game, as long as he believes he can control them or rectify them. 2. Simply one too many times that mercy just caused problems once again. About the only exception he makes is based around those who attack with the goal of protecting/avenging people, as he respects that belief. Its not even a matter of the worst of the worst anymore: he refuses to compromise against those who would interfere with his goals anymore. 3. His goals go a little further than curing the rot of the world at this point. Its almost a Noah like endeavor. He selects people he likes and feels are worthy so that he might essentially spare them when the time comes to remake the world.
Themis_II 02-01-07, 08:42 PM	Lawful Evil beings use the law to justify their selfish natures. They use the law as a tool and manipulate it as far as they can. When they become powerful they make their own laws to suit themselves and their underlings. Again they will use those laws to keep order and discipline amongst their people. I usually play LE characters as smart and charismatic. That allows the character maximum freedom to be manipulative and scheme lots. From a DM perspective most LE groups / armies are organized, disciplined and driven. Read up on Hobgoblins for some other great ideas. Cheers all.
Zinegata 02-01-07, 09:04 PM	The fact is, this scenario is not, necessarily, love. But even if the love the “hero” feels is true and genuine: No, he unquestionably did something evil. Big difference. It is plausible that a good person could love, and at the prospect of losing that, decide to do something evil. He could even rationalize it by saying that it was “good” that lead him to do the evil thing. Good and Evil are not merely predicated on intent, but on action. You could have good intentions, yet act in an evil manner and murder innocents. When you start acting evil, you are evil, no matter your intentions. Also, the example I gave? That's actually from Star Wars, namely Anakin Skywalker. He "loved" Padme and was willing to sacrifice everything, including his own soul and morals, just for the sake of saving her. Yet everything he did was unquestionably Evil in spite of his good intentions. Intentions alone aren't enough. Actions define your alignment. And the road to hell is paved with good intentions. A good person can still commit an evil act. At the absolute best, thats all youve described. They can, but when you keep acting Evil, in spite of your good intention, you ARE Evil. No, the one thing he decided was more important, the one thing he really, really wanted above all else is still there. Sacrificing your self is not the same as selflessness. Suicide is, can be, selfish. Ah, but there is the quandry, if suicide is selfish, if preserving the self is not selfish, then what is selfishness? By your definition, someone who sacrifices their life to save others can be selfish: After all, he could have been trying to save himself from the guilt of letting so many other people die. I think a quote from my LE Witch probably sums up my position best: "Who are you to say if I truly loved him or not?"
Durin413 02-01-07, 10:10 PM	LE has various ways of portrayal. Personally, I like deception, trickery, fine print, corruption, back-stabbing, etc. But don't let that limit you, I think LE covers from Darth Vader, to the emperor, to Adolf Hitler. And especially Stalin. Now THATS a real life LE.
LCD2YOU 02-02-07, 07:32 AM	LE is the only "evil" based characters I'd allowed to be played. In fact, I prefer LE to CN (re: Chaotic Evil) PCs any day of the week. I still prefer CG over LE however. Even with that, no intra-party frat/sororcide is welcomed. I will put an end to it by having the instigator, especially the, "Who are you talking to, me? I've never done anything to warrent such a responce", munchkin out of the game. LE is one of the less rabid alignments.
Ziggy_Stardust 02-02-07, 10:28 AM	I don't.
Puca 02-02-07, 10:46 AM	Good and Evil are not merely predicated on intent, but on action. You could have good intentions, yet act in an evil manner and murder innocents. When you start acting evil, you are evil, no matter your intentions.Great, but you gave an example of one action. Do you deny that there is a deference between being evil and committing an evil act? Also, the example I gave? That's actually from Star Wars, namely Anakin Skywalker. He "loved" Padme and was willing to sacrifice everything, including his own soul and morals, just for the sake of saving her. Yet everything he did was unquestionably Evil in spite of his good intentions. Good intentions? His love was completely self-serving. Why did he want to save her? For her sake? No, plainly it was for his own. This is a perfect example of the “I love coffee” type of love I described. Intentions alone aren't enough. Actions define your alignment.No, values define it. Good people occasionally do bad things. Bad people sometimes do good things. The fact that bad people do bad things more often isnt really the point. They can, but when you keep acting Evil, in spite of your good intention, you ARE Evil.But, if you keep doing bad things, do you still feel the same things? Look at your own example. Once he had committed himself to the dark side, how did he react to Padme? Believed she was false? Hit her? Left her lying there to fight his former friend? I dont believe his love was ever genuine. I dont think his fall was very far either. But even if you do, it is still pretty hard to argue that once he had fallen, he was still acting selflessly towards her. Ah, but there is the quandry, if suicide is selfish, if preserving the self is not selfish, then what is selfishness?Metaphorically, it is a direction. Selfishness and selflessness are polar opposites. There are some acts that are always evil. There are some acts that cannot be. But a great many are not automatically one or the other. In such cases, the principle on which the action was based is the determining factor. By your definition, someone who sacrifices their life to save others can be selfish: By your definition, someone who sacrifices their life to save others can be selfish: After all, he could have been trying to save himself from the guilt of letting so many other people die. Yes. A person who donates to charity for tax reasons is doing something fundamentally different than one who does so to help people. I think a quote from my LE Witch probably sums up my position best: "Who are you to say if I truly loved him or not?"Im the one who offered a definition. Which brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to the OPs question. Your LE witch would say exactly that. And shed also likely have a definition of love that matches what she feels. But, as I said before, LE, no matter how much they may value rules, orders, and definitions, doesnt submit to the rules, orders, and definitions of others. They write their own, and the ones they write are for their own benefit.
Zinegata 02-02-07, 08:28 PM	Great, but you gave an example of one action. Do you deny that there is a deference between being evil and committing an evil act? There is. But when your Evil actions start far outweighing your Good actions, you ARE Evil, no matter your intentions. Good intentions? His love was completely self-serving. Why did he want to save her? For her sake? No, plainly it was for his own. This is a perfect example of the “I love coffee” type of love I described. So saving a woman and her unborn children is an Evil intention? It's not easy, nor simple, to define "love" as merely a selfish obsession or true self-sacrifice when the two can go hand-in hand. No, values define it. Good people occasionally do bad things. Bad people sometimes do good things. The fact that bad people do bad things more often isnt really the point. Nope, that is the point. Your actions define your alignment, not your intent. You could subscribre to your own personal definition of LE, which is intent-based, but D&D's alignment is primarily action-based. You become Evil in D&D by acting Evil, even if your intent is good. But, if you keep doing bad things, do you still feel the same things? Look at your own example. Once he had committed himself to the dark side, how did he react to Padme? Believed she was false? Hit her? Left her lying there to fight his former friend? Yet he was already doing bad things well before that - i.e. slaughtering the younglings, and yet still not did anything bad to her until Padme threatened to left him. I dont believe his love was ever genuine. I dont think his fall was very far either. But even if you do, it is still pretty hard to argue that once he had fallen, he was still acting selflessly towards her. Nope, what I'm saying is that his fall was entirely because he was trying to be selfless for her sake. Remember when Anakin kneels down before the Emperor? What was the one thing he asked? To save Padme. As far as he was concerned, the world can be damned, the Jedi can be damned, himself can be damned, so long as she lived. That was a moment of love and good intent, but forever poisoned by acts of Evil. Metaphorically, it is a direction. Selfishness and selflessness are polar opposites. There are some acts that are always evil. There are some acts that cannot be. But a great many are not automatically one or the other. In such cases, the principle on which the action was based is the determining factor. But how can the two be polar opposites be hand in hand? Again, what of a person who kills themself to save themselves from the guilt of letting others die? That is a selfish reason with a selfless result. Which brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to the OPs question. Your LE witch would say exactly that. And shed also likely have a definition of love that matches what she feels. But, as I said before, LE, no matter how much they may value rules, orders, and definitions, doesnt submit to the rules, orders, and definitions of others. They write their own, and the ones they write are for their own benefit. Uh, you've got LE wrong. If an LE doesn't submit to rules, orders, and definitions of others, they're probably not LE. They're more likely to be NE, or CE. Following a code of conduct -which is not necessarily the making of the LE, is the hallmark of Lawful Evil. They may resent the CoC. They may try to circumvent it. They might even break it from time to time. But the vast majority of the time, they do follow their CoC and act accordingly. An example of an extreme LE? An LE Samurai. An Evil Samurai might do many terrible things (i.e. kill innocent villagers), but if the Lords orders him to commit suicide, he will, and if not he's more likely to have been NE or CE in the first place.
Puca 02-03-07, 08:01 PM	There is. But when your Evil actions start far outweighing your Good actions, you ARE Evil, no matter your intentions.I do not see your point. I argee: when you are ok with doing evil acts, or are continually doing them, youre probably evil. But this was not the example you gave. If he was already evil, then he wasnt really loving her. So saving a woman and her unborn children is an Evil intention? It's not easy, nor simple, to define "love" as merely a selfish obsession or true self-sacrifice when the two can go hand-in hand.I thought you didnt care about intentions? Regardless of what he did, his actions were wholly self-serving. Saving someone for your own benefit is no less selfish that killing someone for your benefit. That the result is more appealing is irrelevant. Nope, that is the point. Your actions define your alignment, not your intent. You could subscribre to your own personal definition of LE, which is intent-based, but D&D's alignment is primarily action-based. You become Evil in D&D by acting Evil, even if your intent is good.No. First of all, it is possible for a Good person to commit, through error, through a lapse in judgment, for whatever reason, it happens. Evil people do things that are good as well. Is there some sort of rubric in your theory? Like less than 1% of my acts could be defined as evil, so Im still Good? I just crossed over to 1.1% Im officially neutral? I dont think so. There must be more to it. Second, D&D is not action-based. It is based on principles or values. These, incidentally, are not the same as intentions. For example, the very simple definition that D&D gives for Good is “respect for life and the dignity of sentient beings.” We could have a person who, to use the cliché “my paladin” thread example, killed an innocent person to save the lives of a thousand others. His intention may have been consistent with respecting life: more lives were saved than lost. But in D&D, that is irrelevant. He treated the one life as the means to an end. He did not respect that life. Yet he was already doing bad things well before that - i.e. slaughtering the younglings, and yet still not did anything bad to her until Padme threatened to left him.And if he truly loved her, as I defined it, then her leaving wouldnt matter. Youre proving my point. He didnt love her: he wanted her. Not the same thing. Nope, what I'm saying is that his fall was entirely because he was trying to be selfless for her sake. Remember when Anakin kneels down before the Emperor? What was the one thing he asked? To save Padme.And was this selfless? What you seem to be arguing is that if you are willing to give something up, something important to you, for another person it is a selfless act. This is not true when you are giving up something in the hope of getting something you want more. Your example, the example on which your critique is based, seems to be founded on the idea that Anakin was a “tragic” hero who gave up everything and turned to the dark side to save the woman he loved. Thats incorrect. This is a tragedy in the Greek sense, where we watch a noble figure fall not because of the circumstances, but because of the flaws in his character. Anakin fell because of his pride, his vanity, and his selfishness. This isnt some sort of horrible mistake: were it not for those flaws, none of the events would have happened. That was a moment of love and good intent, but forever poisoned by acts of Evil. “I cant live without her.” Key word: “I.” Again, what of a person who kills themself to save themselves from the guilt of letting others die? That is a selfish reason with a selfless result.I see the source of our disagreement: results are results. They are neither selfish or selfless. (They have no “self.”) Only those performing the acts can be selfish or selfless. Uh, you've got LE wrong. If an LE doesn't submit to rules, orders, and definitions of others, they're probably not LE. They're more likely to be NE, or CE.My definition of LE does this. No one can possibly submit to every law. To which do they choose to submit and why? If evil is selfish, then LE submits to those laws that favor himself. An example of an extreme LE? An LE Samurai. An Evil Samurai might do many terrible things (i.e. kill innocent villagers), but if the Lords orders him to commit suicide, he will, and if not he's more likely to have been NE or CE in the first place.Why would the samurai do this?
Timespike 02-03-07, 11:21 PM	You can follow a good goal, but take off the "safety interlocks" and do deplorable things in the pursuit of that goal for a more sympathetic LE, too.
nerdor257 02-04-07, 10:21 AM	Lawful evil characters should be actually quite tolerable people. They have friends (although few), they have a sense of humour (albeit an odd one) and an acid wit. They are also charismatic and intelligent, yet still arrogant and aloof. They are self-centered and cynical, always grumbling about something that "that old fool" has done to impede them. They are loners, capable and willing to take care of themselves, in most cases placing themselves above others, even most of their friends. They don't like it when others prevent them from achieving their full potential. They also obey the laws of the land in which they live because they believe that power comes through discipline. After all, is it not true that dictators that keep a tight rein on their countries (like Hitler) have more power than a corrupt African warlord?
Evil DM Mk3 02-04-07, 11:03 AM	I once had a Lawful Evil Dwarven Samurai. That is kinda similar. I worte up a short list of rule for the character based on what he belived in. They are as follows and are upwardly referantail (ie they all read unless *insert above rule here*). 1.I shall never disobey an order from my feudal lord. 2.I shall never lie. (This includes half-truths and lieing by ommition. I was more honest than the LG Samurai...) 3.I shall never harm one who has not tried to harm me. (Harming me includes giving aid or info to my enemies, harming my pride or honour but not those who make threats they cannot follow up.) 4.I shall never slay another without giving them a chance to surender. (Surender is not nice, during the game I sent over 40 people back to my lord in chains, most where enslaved but some where executed. Point is it was not me who killed them.) 5.I shall never force myslef on another. 6.I shall never steal. (Liberation of previously stolen items does not count, stealing to follow through orders is of course covered by the see above clause.) 7.I shall observe all social niceties and laws in civilised areas. More generaly however I play (and DM, I DM a lot) all lawfuls, rather all DEDICATED Lawfuls such as samurai, monks paladins and certain others who behave at the medium to high end of lawful, as people who have a strict code of conduct that they are loath to break and who detest the idea of people who live by the the counter-rules. It is the content of that code that makes them differant. At my recomendation the LG samurai drew up a simmialr list, his had fewer caviats but mostly consisted of my rules in a differant hyerarchi. 5 4 and 3 for example where all above 1.
Zinegata 02-05-07, 01:03 AM	Why would the samurai do this? Very quickly, since I don't have time and most of the conversation is pretty much gonna end up going to "agree to disagree" anyway. Just to answer your question, it's because the traditional code of conduct for the Samurai is Bushido, which requires Samurais to show intense loyalty to their lords. A Samurai Lord can, in fact, order a subordinate to commit ritual suicide due to some perceived failure of the subordinate. If he doesn't commit suicide, he's breaking his CoC (Bushido) and is thus more Neutral Evil than Lawful Evil.
Puca 02-05-07, 08:25 AM	If he doesn't commit suicide, he's breaking his CoC (Bushido) and is thus more Neutral Evil than Lawful Evil.Yeah, Im familiar with bushido, or at least enough for this. Im asking why the individual samurai would follow through. A Lawful Neutral would do so because following orders is the only good, with a little "g." But would a Lawful Evil? Quite reasonably, one could say that he did so because he was unwilling to expose himself to dishonor. When is comes down to it, he values his honor more than his life, but that doesnt make it less selfish when he exchanges the one he values less for the other.
Evil DM Mk3 02-05-07, 08:49 AM	When is comes down to it, he values his honor more than his life, Just a thought but might that be argued as he does not recognise the inherant sanctity of life, even his own? Just a thought.
Puca 02-05-07, 09:49 AM	Does that conflict with being selfish?
Nidair 02-05-07, 11:35 AM	I don't play an alignment. I play a character. Though I once made a lawful evil ice devil, he was not the Stalin-type commonly associated with lawful evil. He regularly disguised himself as a warden archon and sold information to all sides of the alignment spectrum, but never enough to give one side an edge over the other. He liked to keep things balanced, just like his purse. Intimidation and such brutal ways 'commonly used by LE' were not for him. Bluffing his way into the courthall was more his style!
Zinegata 02-06-07, 02:56 AM	Does that conflict with being selfish? But that's the point. Evil needn't be selfish.