Post/Author/DateTime	Post
deshad 05-21-05, 10:20 PM	An unknown individual is advancing on the party. Party then warns the advancing person to stop. Person continues to advance so the wizard starts to cast a spell that takes 1 standard action to cast. At this point what happens? a) Do you roll initiative and go from highest to lowest? If so how does the person know combat has started? b) Does the spell go off then everyone else goes through initiative? c) Something else? If so what? I know in 2E that you got a bonus to initiative if you declared it. Just trying to figure out how it works in 3.5. It seems odd to me that if the mage starts the hostile situation by doing a standard action that anyone how react before he is finished. Even if you just roll initiative and spell goes off on the wizards I would think that no one would realize what was going on till that point anyway. So basically they would continue to do what they had been doing.
OamuTheMonk 05-21-05, 10:51 PM	...but the wizard goes first. His action began the combat, so he gets a "surprise" round, even though no one was really surprised. Wizard finishes casting, spell goes off (advancing person has not acted in the initiative order, and is thus flat-footed), begin initiative at the top, as normal.
deshad 05-21-05, 10:58 PM	Thanks for replying. Ok that is basically the way I would have imagined it going. Question I have then is. Is there any where in the books etc that has an example of this sort of situation happening? Just wanting to be able to show it to the DM to back up my belief. I tried to make a quick check before I got to work today but did not locate it if there is in that time. Straight from game to work.
The Captain 05-21-05, 11:51 PM	C. I would suggest rolling for init when the party calls for the NPC to halt. They have decided that the character is a possible threat and have acted on it. The wizard would ready an action to cast if his init result is higher than the NPC's or would simply cast on their turn if the NPC doesn't respond to the halt command. I wouldn't give a supprise round because both parties are aware of each other.
Dragon Snack 05-22-05, 12:01 AM	If the person advancing is aware of the Wizard, you roll initiative and go from there. The Wizard may want to cast a spell first, but he still has to go through the motions (getting material components out, gesturing the somatic component, speaking the verbal component). If the person advancing can see the Wizard start to cast a spell, he has a chance to react before the Wizard can get the spell off. This is covered in the 3.5 DMG on pg 23, in the 'Both Sides Aware at the Same Time' paragraph...
Dragon Snack 05-22-05, 12:02 AM	Double Post, Grrr...
OamuTheMonk 05-22-05, 01:55 AM	The Captain, Dragon Snack, and I differ on this. Let's imagine that the fellow approaching is a courier (unarmed) who doesn't speak the language. Let's say the Wizard is a Ranger, bow in hand. Otherwise, same situation. Courier approaches. Combat does not begin. The courier is not attacking. No initiative is rolled. Ranger warns courier to halt. Combat does not begin. No combat actions have been taken. There are simply two characters (both aware of each other) within shouting distance. Initiative is not rolled. Courier continues to approach ("I only speak Ignan!"). Ranger draws an arrow (a free action, just like drawing a spell component), and fires. Then... Let's say you do it like Dragon snack...You roll initiative here, and the Courier rolls a twenty, beating the Ranger's seven. So, miraculously, in the time it takes for a combat-seasoned Ranger to draw and fire, the courier can suddenly take a full action, withdrawing behind a tree (full cover), negating the Ranger's desire to fire the first shot? A dopey resolution to a sticky situation. Okay, so let's say you handle it like the Cap'n. The Courier is seventy feet away when the Ranger calls for him to halt. You roll initiative. For what? No combat is going on! You now have to go through the initiative order of people moving into position, drawing their weapons, just so the Courier can use his turn to move thirty feet closer, enabling someone to spot that it's just a damn courier, with a letter from Ed McMahon. Dopey also. Plus, it's technically not possible for someone to ready an action outside of combat (as the Cap'n suggested). Look, it just makes more sense to let the first action of combat define when combat begins. Otherwise, you are going to have to roll initiative under the most mundane circumstances (a shady character, dressed in a dark cloak, enters the tavern. Roll initiative!). Besides, what if somebody want's to pull a Han Solo and fire a hand crossbow under a table at a treacherous bounty hunter? Do you roll when Greedo accosts Solo, running through the next forty seconds of dialogue in six-second chunks, or do you RP the scene, let Solo make a Sleight-of-Hand check, fire a poisoned bolt into Greedo's (flat-footed) midsection, and call it a day? Do it my way. The players will be happier, and your games will run more smoothly. Trust me.
Arrowhen 05-22-05, 05:56 AM	Courier continues to approach ("I only speak Ignan!"). Ranger draws an arrow (a free action, just like drawing a spell component), and fires. Then... Let's say you do it like Dragon snack...You roll initiative here, and the Courier rolls a twenty, beating the Ranger's seven. So, miraculously, in the time it takes for a combat-seasoned Ranger to draw and fire, the courier can suddenly take a full action, withdrawing behind a tree (full cover), negating the Ranger's desire to fire the first shot? A dopey resolution to a sticky situation. I don't see a problem with this situation at all. Initiative is as much mental as it is physical; not just "who moves faster?" but "who is able to most quickly assess the situation and react?" By winning initiative, the courier realizes, in the instant he sees the ranger's hand move toward the quiver, that the ranger intends to fire an arrow at him and that he'd better go hide behind that tree.
MasterZelgadis 05-22-05, 07:20 AM	OK, I would say: - Wizard shouts the order to stop (no combat) - Person doesn't stop (no combat) - Wizard starts casting a spell At this point the combat begins, I think this is clear. But how to handle the combat depends on the situation I think. The Person propably can't understand, what the Wizard has said, but on the other hand, if I see a chinese person and shout to stop, maybe with an additional gesture, he surely will be able to understand that, because it is obvious what I want him to do. Especially if the party is readying weapons or the wizard starts to make magic gestures, the other one will know what happens, if he moves on. If the other one continues the approach, he knows what will happen, so he can't be flat footed at all, he wants the fight to start. So I'd say the initative roll comes immediately when the wizard starts to cast. No one is surprised ot flat footed, because every one knows exactly what will happen. But what if the other person really didn't understand the order? Although this situation should be very rarely (if he didn't understand the order there should be some reaction, i.e. he stops and shouts back something in a different language). But if he doesn't understand the order to stop and doesn't realize what will happen if he continue his approach (maybe he short-sighted), he won't be able to evade the attack, at least not like a fully aware combatand could do it. In this case the wizard should be able to cast his spell, with the other person flat footed. After this action the combat begins with normal a initiative roll. The GM has to decide, which one fits in his situation
The Captain 05-24-05, 12:24 AM	it's technically not possible for someone to ready an action outside of combat (as the Cap'n suggested). In the situation I suggested, the wizard would ready to cast on his turn if his init result is higher than the Courier (he is in combat init, even if there is no physical combat happening). If his init result is lower than the Courier he would cast on his turn when the Courier does't respont to the called halt. In both situations he his in an initiative order controlled situation. If you are in a situation that that could turn hostile I would allways suggest rolling init as soon as your party (or the other) decides to act on it (even if it's a simple halt command), even if the end result is only to make sure every player has equil chance to react. In a situation like this I feel the players deserve a fair chance to react in case the Courier ends up being the unibomber.
Duvanok 05-24-05, 12:54 AM	Since niether side was surprised, I would roll init as soon as the wizard started casting. That means the wiz would not get a surprise round. Generally, when both sides are aware of the other, straight init.
Lord Schpungus 05-24-05, 02:38 AM	Wizard gets surprise round, roll initiative. Simple, right, and easy.
OamuTheMonk 05-24-05, 02:04 PM	At least someone agrees with me. Look, I know that the rules on surprise rounds use the word "aware" a lot, and I know that many of your arguments are based around this conceit, but being aware that someone is near you, and being aware that someone is attacking you are two different bowls of soup, and anyone who says different is just unwilling to enable their common sense chip. New example: An huge banquet is being held on behalf of Viceroy Fizzlebottom, who has just negotiated a treaty with a nearby hostile nation, Quaggoria. Unbeknownst to the Viceroy, his beloved son, Wilbur, has been secretly brainwashed by Quagg insurgents to kill him, in the hopes of derailing the delicate peace process. Wilbur, seated at the right-hand side of the Viceroy, has been gamely enjoying the banquet, waiting to hear the word "pheasant," which will activate his compulsion to kill his father. After the first few courses, the Viceroy turns to his son, hands him an Elvencraft Keen Carving knife, and says "Son, will you please carve the ceremonial pheasant?" Wilbur takes the knife, and immediately plunges it into the Viceroy's neck. So what's the initiative situation, fellas? The Viceroy was quite aware of his son, after all, they had been sitting together for nearly an hour! The idea that the Viceroy (and his retinue, for that matter) would not be surprised by this turn of events is ludicrous and asinine. Wilbur gets a surprise round, then initiative is rolled. End of Story.
Thoronmir 05-24-05, 03:01 PM	At least someone agrees with me. So what's the initiative situation, fellas? The Viceroy was quite aware of his son, after all, they had been sitting together for nearly an hour! The idea that the Viceroy (and his retinue, for that matter) would not be surprised by this turn of events is ludicrous and asinine. Wilbur gets a surprise round, then initiative is rolled. End of Story.I would give the son a Surprise Round because, although the Viceroy was aware that his son was in the room, he was not aware of the threat the son posed and, thus, had his guard lowered. In the OP's situation, the party obviously perceived the NPC as a potential threat (they warned him to stop). The question is whether the NPC had any reason to perceive the party as a potential threat. As long as both sides perceive a potential threat, there is no Surprise Round and combat begins with Initiative Checks. Note that the perception of a threat must be specific. It's not enough to simply declare that "My PC knows that all dungeons are dangerous places, so he can't be surprised." The character must be aware of an identifiable potential threat ... like when you're walking towards a group of armed and armored adventurers ... including some guy in robes.
PurdueDave 05-24-05, 03:07 PM	C. I would suggest rolling for init when the party calls for the NPC to halt. They have decided that the character is a possible threat and have acted on it. The wizard would ready an action to cast if his init result is higher than the NPC's or would simply cast on their turn if the NPC doesn't respond to the halt command. I wouldn't give a supprise round because both parties are aware of each other. I'd agree with this. Both sides are aware of each other and cautious.
Cloud Divider 05-24-05, 06:00 PM	So what's the initiative situation, fellas? The Viceroy was quite aware of his son, after all, they had been sitting together for nearly an hour! The idea that the Viceroy (and his retinue, for that matter) would not be surprised by this turn of events is ludicrous and asinine. Wilbur gets a surprise round, then initiative is rolled. End of Story. Agreed - the Viceroy is caught unawares, and Wilbur can continue to commit patricide. However...to muddy the waters a bit, but another "when do you roll init" situation can be built onto your example... So let's say that standing just behind the table, you have the Viceroy's personal bodyguard, Bill. He's not at this royal dinner as a guest - he's overseeing the site security, and has now taken up his position near the Viceroy. He's keenly observing the room around him, as he's well trained and disciplined (...and those rumors about some spooky anti-government forces planning an assassination). The Viceroy says "Pheasant," which trigger's Wilbur's murderous response. Does Bill get surprised by Wilbur, and is caught helpless, as his lord gets assassinated?? Do we allow Bill a free, out-of-sequence (ie Wilbur is acting) high-DC Spot check to sense the change in Wilbur's demeanor and posture? If Bill succeeds, do we then have Wilbur and Bill (and any other bodyguards that made the Spot check) roll Initiative? It can get pretty complicated quickly - the above situation turns into this wierd Surprise Round with multiple adversarial actors... I'd generally say it's a fairly similar situation to the archer-and-courier example; the archer is initiating an action (aiming the bow at the courier), but there's the possibility that the courier notices the action and can then take appropriate countermeasures (...such as diving for cover). Were the courier to make the Spot check, he may not count as Surprised (ergo init roll). Whether he's able to take cover will depend on if he wins init or not...
Arrowhen 05-24-05, 06:26 PM	I'd generally say it's a fairly similar situation to the archer-and-courier example; the archer is initiating an action (aiming the bow at the courier), but there's the possibility that the courier notices the action and can then take appropriate countermeasures (...such as diving for cover). Were the courier to make the Spot check, he may not count as Surprised (ergo init roll). Whether he's able to take cover will depend on if he wins init or not... I don't think they're all that similar. You'd be a lot more likely to recognize a potential threat from a person holding a bow and shouting at you in a foreign language than you would from somebody sitting next to you and chatting over dinner.
kenichi 05-25-05, 09:59 AM	Agreed - the Viceroy is caught unawares, and Wilbur can continue to commit patricide. However...to muddy the waters a bit, but another "when do you roll init" situation can be built onto your example... So let's say that standing just behind the table, you have the Viceroy's personal bodyguard, Bill. He's not at this royal dinner as a guest - he's overseeing the site security, and has now taken up his position near the Viceroy. He's keenly observing the room around him, as he's well trained and disciplined (...and those rumors about some spooky anti-government forces planning an assassination). The Viceroy says "Pheasant," which trigger's Wilbur's murderous response. Does Bill get surprised by Wilbur, and is caught helpless, as his lord gets assassinated?? Do we allow Bill a free, out-of-sequence (ie Wilbur is acting) high-DC Spot check to sense the change in Wilbur's demeanor and posture? If Bill succeeds, do we then have Wilbur and Bill (and any other bodyguards that made the Spot check) roll Initiative? It can get pretty complicated quickly - the above situation turns into this wierd Surprise Round with multiple adversarial actors... I'd generally say it's a fairly similar situation to the archer-and-courier example; the archer is initiating an action (aiming the bow at the courier), but there's the possibility that the courier notices the action and can then take appropriate countermeasures (...such as diving for cover). Were the courier to make the Spot check, he may not count as Surprised (ergo init roll). Whether he's able to take cover will depend on if he wins init or not... I don't see your example as that difficult. The questions you must ask is everyone aware of each other? Yes. Is anyone expecting any kind of danger from anyone else? Bill, as he is actively looking for someone that might harm the Viceroy gets to make a Sense Motive check to realize that Wilbur suddenly seems to be under an enchantment like effect. If Bill succeeds, he also gets his surprise round and if he beats Wilbur in initiative may be able to stop him before he even does any harm. The courier and party situation is similar. The questions you ask are they both aware of each other? Yes. Are you expecting any kind of danger from each other? Yes on the party's side, but a maybe from the courier. This maybe is where the confusion comes from. If the courier has any reason to believe that he might be attacked while approaching the party, then he gets to roll inititative and there is not surprise round. If the courier has no reason to expect an attack, then he would be caught by surprise and everyone in the party who was planning on attacking gets their surprise round.
Lord Schpungus 05-25-05, 01:19 PM	So we don't give the wizard a surprise round. Even then, he CLEARLY goes at the top of initiative.
boredgremlin 05-25-05, 09:18 PM	An unknown individual is advancing on the party. Party then warns the advancing person to stop. Person continues to advance so the wizard starts to cast a spell that takes 1 standard action to cast. At this point what happens? a) Do you roll initiative and go from highest to lowest? If so how does the person know combat has started? b) Does the spell go off then everyone else goes through initiative? c) Something else? If so what? I know in 2E that you got a bonus to initiative if you declared it. Just trying to figure out how it works in 3.5. It seems odd to me that if the mage starts the hostile situation by doing a standard action that anyone how react before he is finished. Even if you just roll initiative and spell goes off on the wizards I would think that no one would realize what was going on till that point anyway. So basically they would continue to do what they had been doing. Depends, if the stranger is aware the mage is beggining to cast a spell i would say its a normal initiative. But if not i would give the wizard a surprise round.
OamuTheMonk 05-25-05, 09:22 PM	Calling it a surprise round is what's causing the problem. If it were called the pre-initiative round or the initial engagement round, this would seem less complicated. The way I see it, until combat is initiated by an overtly aggressive action (not posturing, shouting, or just lookin' shifty), initiative should not be rolled. The first person who says "I draw my sword and attack the bartender." should almost always get a surprise round. Initiative is a function of combat. It should not reach retroactively into the pre-combat past to give the bartender a chance to draw a club from under the counter and strike first. Now, if the bartender thinks: "That fighter looks like he may attack me, I'll watch him closely, and if he trys any rough stuff, I'll give him a taste of Ol' clubby," then you have an initiative situation once the fighter attempts to attack. The fighter and bartender roll initiative, whoever wins strikes first. The fighter's friends don't roll until they attack, are attacked, or attempt to interfere with either of the two combatants.
Thoronmir 05-26-05, 09:52 AM	Calling it a surprise round is what's causing the problem. If it were called the pre-initiative round or the initial engagement round, this would seem less complicated.Except that it’s not intended to serve as a “pre-initiative” or “initial engagement” round. It’s clearly intended to allow someone to act (briefly) while his enemy remains oblivious to the threat … i.e., when caught by surprise. The SRD is pretty clear:At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. The only exception cited by the RAW to the above rule is when someone is “Surprised” (defined as “unaware”). We can quibble over what it means to be “aware” (and I agree that simply knowing someone is in the room isn’t per se sufficient), but the RAW does not support an interpretation that whoever makes the first “overtly aggressive action” renders his enemy “unaware.” Anyone who is “aware” is entitled to roll Initiative before the first combat action is taken. Granted, the RAW does not really define “awareness” very well … it seems to fall somewhere along the spectrum between unconsciousness and omniscience. However, the emphasis must be placed on the enemy’s state of mind rather than any overt acts by other characters. We can narrow the scope of “awareness” to require that the character be aware of what’s going on around him (e.g., a Wizard sitting in the corner with his nose deep in his spellbook may not be aware that the Fighter and the Bartender are even in the same room). But I don’t see how we can justify restricting awareness any further than “awareness” that someone poses a specific potential threat. If you define “aware” as requiring that the character be aware that the Fighter has drawn his sword, then you’ve created an exception to the basic Initiative rule that swallows the rule entirely.
Keenath 05-26-05, 03:39 PM	The best solution to this, in my opinion, is a little metagaming. First, you know that round structure is just a convenience. In the DMG it talks about "ad hoc simultaneity" -- that is, from time to time you have to bend the initiative order to take into account that everyone is *really* acting at the same time, and the initiative order represents very small differences in reaction time. So, basically, you roll initiative when the mage declares the spell. Nobody is flat footed because everyone is aware of the other group's presence and fully cognizant that there is danger in approaching a heavily armed party. Here's the trick. When you roll initiative, the initiative order started last turn! Here's what happened (with a completely made up init order): Courier: walk closer Ranger: wait Mage: (decides to cast a spell) REFOCUS -- initiative is now calculated as if he'd rolled a 20. Fighter: wait Cleric: wait --Next turn-- Mage: Cast spell Courier: react to spell etc. When the mage declares that he's casting, you assume that, since he's the first to go from a passive situation to a proactive stance, he refocused and goes first in initiative order. Even then, if the Courier somehow managed to go first (such as rolling a lucky 20 and having a massive init bonus), why would the courier have reason to suspect the wizard is about to blast him? In normal combat, a higher initiative doesn't give you precognizance about what I'm about to do on my turn... The refocus ensures that Mage goes first on the team's order (or nearly), and the courier still wouldn't dodge, because he wasn't dodging already.
Duvanok 05-26-05, 04:07 PM	Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going strong! Guys, I think we are really, really, overthinking this one. If both sides are aware of each other it's straight init. Period. No surprise round. No "proactive stances" or any of the other mumbo-jumbo non-gaming terms that have been thrown about thus far. It's straight init.
Thoronmir 05-26-05, 04:23 PM	When the mage declares that he's casting, you assume that, since he's the first to go from a passive situation to a proactive stance, he refocused and goes first in initiative order.I just don’t see any provision in the RAW to support the interpretation that the first to declare an action wins Initiative.
OamuTheMonk 05-26-05, 06:50 PM	Anyone who is “aware” is entitled to roll Initiative before the first combat action is taken. Granted, the RAW does not really define “awareness” very well … it seems to fall somewhere along the spectrum between unconsciousness and omniscience...If you define “aware” as requiring that the character be aware that the Fighter has drawn his sword, then you’ve created an exception to the basic Initiative rule that swallows the rule entirely. You're good at parroting the rules, but what about the situation I've described earlier in the thread? Assuming every conflict that doesn't involve Ninjas or cat burglars is a straight initiative situation, then Viceroy Fizzlebottom will no doubt be saved by his nearby royal guard...surely one of them will be able to beat Wilbur's initiative check and wrestle the knife away from him before any damage is done...Whew! What a relief. With this hard, inflexible outlook on the RAW, the danger to the Viceroy is negated entirely. No danger, no conflict, no interest, no story. I also love how Initiative is supposed to be rolled "...before the first combat action is taken." What causes initiative to be rolled, then? Granted, if two armies are charging each other across a valley, it's pretty much a forgone conclusion that combat is imminent, but what about the drunken Fighter and the bartender? Do you roll initiative before or after the fighter sits down? When he orders his first drink? His third drink? Until someone swings a fist, draws a weapon, or (at the very least) throws a drink, combat is in no way a forgone conclusion, and trying to pre-predict when combat is about to occur is a losing proposition. "Aware" means aware of an imminent threat. Not mildly suspicious of a character who might, under the right circumstances, become an imminent threat someday. Assuming the bartender is doing his job, serving drinks, chatting up barmaids, wiping down the counter, changing kegs, making change,...then he could not possibly be "aware" of the fighter's drunken attack unless, as I said earlier, he was actively paying attention to the fighter's unruly behavior and mentally ready for a possible conflict. I'm not talking about 'Party intersects band-of-Kobolds in a Dungeon' situations, here, I'm talking about using one's natural sense about how the RAW is meant to be used, and making sound decisions using the RAW as a guide, not a damn bible.
Gingerbread Guy 05-26-05, 07:38 PM	Holy crap. I can't believe this is even a discussion. There can be no surprise round if everyone is aware of one-another. You can't just award a surprise round to the first person to shout out a combat action! Everyone is entitled to their own actions. Remember, kids: The cumulative actions that make up a combat round all play out at the same time. When the wizard's initiative comes up, its not as though the world is frozen while he moves 30' and casts a spell. The wizard's turn is merely a moment for the DM and the wizard's player to decide what the wizard is doing that round, and what the outcome may be, without the other players shouting and arguing about what their character is doing. Yes, turns are taken in chronological order, but that order is not based on who is the first person to shout out an action, its based on initiative rolls and the various modifiers that apply. ~Ginger
Arrowhen 05-26-05, 08:11 PM	Assuming every conflict that doesn't involve Ninjas or cat burglars is a straight initiative situation, then Viceroy Fizzlebottom will no doubt be saved by his nearby royal guard...surely one of them will be able to beat Wilbur's initiative check and wrestle the knife away from him before any damage is done...Whew! What a relief. With this hard, inflexible outlook on the RAW, the danger to the Viceroy is negated entirely. No danger, no conflict, no interest, no story. Agreed. However, it seems likely that the Viceroy's personal guard is likely to be paying pretty close attention to anyone in the Viceroy's immediate vicinity. He should have some chance of detecting the impending attack. It seems like some mechanic may be necessary for determining surprise when both parties are aware of each other's presence, but one party is not aware of any immediate threat from the other. I'm thinking the attacker should roll initiative and the defender should make a Spot check ("He's going for his weapon!") or Sense Motive check ("He's gonna carve something other than turkey with that carving knife!") vs. the attacker's result. If the attacker succeeds, he gets a surprise round while if the defender succeeds they then proceed to normal combat and roll initiative as usual.
OamuTheMonk 05-26-05, 08:19 PM	Ginger has offered no alternate options concerning the situations I have suggested, he is merely content to say that things cannot be done my way. We are aware of what it says in the SRD, Ginger. We are exploring other options open to those of us willing to expand our definitions beyond the incredibly limited scenarios that the RAW specifically allows for.
OamuTheMonk 05-27-05, 01:01 AM	Agreed. However, it seems likely that the Viceroy's personal guard is likely to be paying pretty close attention to anyone in the Viceroy's immediate vicinity. He should have some chance of detecting the impending attack. It seems like some mechanic may be necessary for determining surprise when both parties are aware of each other's presence, but one party is not aware of any immediate threat from the other. I'm thinking the attacker should roll initiative and the defender should make a Spot check ("He's going for his weapon!") or Sense Motive check ("He's gonna carve something other than turkey with that carving knife!") vs. the attacker's result. If the attacker succeeds, he gets a surprise round while if the defender succeeds they then proceed to normal combat and roll initiative as usual. See, this is what I mean. Arrow here has recognized the need to be flexible when trying to accurately and fairly rule on a complicated situation that "straight init, it's always straight init." does not cover. He has identified what he finds to be a problem (The Viceroy's nearby personal guard, and whether they should be able to help, if watchful enough), he has formulated a possible solution (a Spot or Sense Motive check to detect Wilbur's irrational behavior), and he has expressed both a clear understanding of the RAW, and the possible necessity to sometimes move beyond it's limitations.
OamuTheMonk 05-27-05, 01:30 AM	The cumulative actions that make up a combat round all play out at the same time. When the wizard's initiative comes up, its not as though the world is frozen while he moves 30' and casts a spell. The wizard's turn is merely a moment for the DM and the wizard's player to decide what the wizard is doing that round, and what the outcome may be, without the other players shouting and arguing about what their character is doing. Yes, turns are taken in chronological order, but that order is not based on who is the first person to shout out an action, its based on initiative rolls and the various modifiers that apply. ~Ginger This is the problem. You, Ginger, and Thoronmir before you, are actively ignoring the fact that combat does not begin until someone actively does something. Two commoners sitting in a small room with a locked door are both aware of each other. They have been stuck in the room for days, and they have not been unaware of each other the whole time, except while sleeping. Both are hungry, smelly, and thirsty. The only thing in the room is them. Days and days go by. Both are slowly dying of hunger and thirst. No one speaks for days. Finally, as both commoners sit across from each other, both staring blankly, one, in a frenzy of hunger and a desperation, flings himself onto his fellow prisoner... The attacker. Surprise Round? Should we have started initiative at the beginning of their imprisonment? Worked it out six seconds at a time? Interesting campaign. Under many circumstances, combat is initiated by a single character. His actions provide the impetus for combat to start. Under these circumstances, it runs counter to the events for anyone else to go before him in the initiative order. You cant unring a bell, you cant unfire a gun, and if you're the guy who throws the punch that starts the brawl, the brawl cannot begin before you throw the punch. You. Go. First. You can read and re-read the PHB and DMG and SRD as much as you want, and you can say (if you believe it) that the rules comprised therein cover every possible eventuality, every possible permutation of events that could occur in gameplay, but you would be wrong. Knowing the RAW and being wrong is still being wrong.
Arrowhen 05-27-05, 03:07 AM	There was a time, back in the 1st and 2nd ed. days, when DMs were expected to make just these sorts of decisions. How they made them was a matter of individual style; one might just render a judgment based on the particulars of a situation, another might apply situational modifiers to the closest applicable rule, while a third might simply estimate the chances and call for a straight die roll. While the specifics of how to deal with a particular situation might be open for discussion, debate, or bitter screaming argument, there was never any denying that no set of rules could ever possibly cover every situation that might arise in the course of a campaign. The ability to make ad hoc rulings was a necessary part of the craft of Dungeon Mastering. It seems, however, that this ability is becoming a lost art. Is 3rd edition a victim of its own successes? Has the process of streamlining the rules hidden the limitations that necessarily lie within any RPG ruleset? Did the oft-lamented idiosyncrasies of the previous editions actually serve to underscore the fact that the rules sometimes need to be tinkered with? Maybe it's a sign of some sort of larger social shift. Who knows? All I know is that in a recent thread on the boards, people are questioning the validity of Rule Zero. I find this disturbing. It seems that if there ever was a rule that no one could argue with, it was the rule that said, essentially, "These rules are not perfect. If you need to 'break' them to keep the game fun, then by all means, do so."
The Man from Uncle 05-27-05, 03:44 AM	Arrowhen - 'Maybe it's a sign of some sort of larger social shift. Who knows? ' Hahahaha. I could not agree with you more. But when I say things like that you slate me. Anyway, let page 2 or 'When do we role initiative?' continue!
Nom 05-27-05, 04:01 AM	if you're the guy who throws the punch that starts the brawl, the brawl cannot begin before you throw the punch. You. Go. First.No, you commit first. If the other guy is expecting you to do something hostile, he may well land the first blow (win initiative). But what if you're trying to be sneaky, and conceal that first blow until after it's already there? That's what Spot, Sense Motive, or equivalent checks are for. Fail the check, the attacker gets a surprise round. Pass the check, roll regular initiative (or act in surprise round, as appropriate).
Tenzhi 05-27-05, 04:15 AM	You're good at parroting the rules, but what about the situation I've described earlier in the thread? Assuming every conflict that doesn't involve Ninjas or cat burglars is a straight initiative situation, then Viceroy Fizzlebottom will no doubt be saved by his nearby royal guard...surely one of them will be able to beat Wilbur's initiative check and wrestle the knife away from him before any damage is done...Whew! What a relief. With this hard, inflexible outlook on the RAW, the danger to the Viceroy is negated entirely. No danger, no conflict, no interest, no story. Wilbur might also roll a 1 on his attack roll. Like as not, this situation would be purely a story moment that doesn't involve any rolling or surprise rounds. If it's not, then the fact that the Viceroy might be saved by his guard or a missed attack is not very important.
Arrowhen 05-27-05, 04:19 AM	Hahahaha. I could not agree with you more. But when I say things like that you slate me. Was that irony or sarcasm? I can never tell the difference. ;)
boredgremlin 05-27-05, 04:46 AM	This is the problem. You, Ginger, and Thoronmir before you, are actively ignoring the fact that combat does not begin until someone actively does something. Two commoners sitting in a small room with a locked door are both aware of each other. They have been stuck in the room for days, and they have not been unaware of each other the whole time, except while sleeping. Both are hungry, smelly, and thirsty. The only thing in the room is them. Days and days go by. Both are slowly dying of hunger and thirst. No one speaks for days. Finally, as both commoners sit across from each other, both staring blankly, one, in a frenzy of hunger and a desperation, flings himself onto his fellow prisoner... The attacker. Surprise Round? Should we have started initiative at the beginning of their imprisonment? Worked it out six seconds at a time? Interesting campaign. Under many circumstances, combat is initiated by a single character. His actions provide the impetus for combat to start. Under these circumstances, it runs counter to the events for anyone else to go before him in the initiative order. You cant unring a bell, you cant unfire a gun, and if you're the guy who throws the punch that starts the brawl, the brawl cannot begin before you throw the punch. You. Go. First. You can read and re-read the PHB and DMG and SRD as much as you want, and you can say (if you believe it) that the rules comprised therein cover every possible eventuality, every possible permutation of events that could occur in gameplay, but you would be wrong. Knowing the RAW and being wrong is still being wrong. I have to disagree with this. Just because you want to do something doesnt mean its going to work or nobody is going to notice it. If you decide to walk up and punch someone in the jaw for no reason at all your assuming that you get to swing without anyone having a chance to react. Thats just not the case though. The person your trying to punch might notice you tensing up, or starting the motion to punch in plenty of time to react before you have any chance to actually hit them. Thats why we roll initiative. To see if they notice any of that little buildup to the strike. Whether the wizard really has any chance of a surprise round depends on just how emphatic wizards have to be in the OP's world. The PHB says verbal and somatic are talking and moving. But it doesnt say whether that means shouting out mystic commands to the heavens, or mumbling an incantation under your breath, waving your arms in big circles and pointing your glowing hand toward your target or just wiggling your thumbs a little and maybe pointing with your hand in your pocket. These things are up to each individual DM for his world and thats what is determines whether the wizard gets a surprise round. If the wizard can mumble with his hands in his pockets and cast the spell then yes he can probably surprise his target. If he has to raise his hands to the sky while shouting arcane commands, possibly with glowing eyes or hands. Then hell no, he is not surprising anyone with a spell. In this particular case only the OP can really answer his own question because it involves a flavor question for wizards in his world, not any interpretation of the RAW.
digoraccoon 05-27-05, 08:29 AM	In my D&D games, as soon as someone initiates a hostile action, combat initiatives start with the acting player going first. It's sort of a house rule we have, "If you get your shot off before the DM declares initative, you go first".
Law S 05-27-05, 01:21 PM	Interesting, and slightly amazing, discussion; amazing in the fact there seem to be some that demand their views be accepted and listened to fairly exclusively, while simultaneously demanding dissenting views be dismissed. I find the answer rather simple: 1. Wizard declares intent to cast spell. 2. Both sides are aware of each other and a character has committed to attempting a combat action. This would be the moment when everyone would roll initiative. This assumes no mitigating circumstances, such as a nighttime meeting where, while both parties are aware of each other in the larger sense (party A and party B), there may be individual members of party B that party A missed Spotting. So... We'll assume the spellcaster decides to start casting his spell, and everyone is aware of it. Everyone rolls initiative; at best, the DM decides the wizard's sudden action was fairly surprising, so he gets a +2 circumstance modifier to his initiative. The failing here seems to be that there is a lot of argument stating that an action is resolved as soon as it's declared; mechanically, yes, this is true. However, this isn't the case in a 'fluffier' sense... There's six seconds time between each characters' sets of actions. Why is this important? Because it doesn't mean that all actions are immediate; it means that we're supposed to pretend all the events leading up to the action (such as, for spellcasting, all the chanting, gesturing, and the like) have been happening in the background, and that the initiative count the character acts is merely when their action has noticeable impact in the combat. Yes, we don't ultimately decide what's happening until initiative count, but that's the rules trying its hardest to grant us the same skill as a character, in the situation, with enough experience to get a hold on what's happening around them, to realize what's happening; as stilted as it seems, we pretend our characters were able to recognize what everyone else that acted before them was starting to do before reacting and beginning their action(s), even if we as players don't ultimately decide how our character reacted until their initiative count. Still, it can easily be argued the wizard got the jump on everyone else, even if they were aware of each other, because no one was fully expecting combat; so he gets the circumstance bonus to his initiative. If he still gets beat in the initiative count, then it just means someone(s) got luckier than him and was still able to react as soon as he began chanting. If he won initiative, then there were a couple of seconds where everyone was slightly dumbstruck at what the wizard was doing, but then they gathered themselves and reacted. A surprise round, on the other hand, is literally surprise; the reason the surprised party doesn't get a chance to react during that first action is because they are completely unaware of what's going to happen to them, and it takes a few moments to realize "hey, that's a shortspear in my kidney". Of course, surprise doesn't always mean someone's reeling from an unexpected injury, but it does mean they're wholly unaware of what is happening/has happened, or even that the possibility of it happening was there. Starting to pass a side hallway and catching an unknown club in the face, walking down a moonlit path and suddenly finding your feet tripped up in a lifted rope, whatever; the victim is unaware, and didn't see it coming, and has no opportunity to react. And so this is why the wizard that everyone knows is there and can clearly see doing something doesn't get an actual surprise round. But, let's take it even further; let's say the courier has absolutely no clue what the Devil the wizard is doing. He sees all of this gesturing, hears all of this chanting begin, and still doesn't quite get he's in trouble. Does this still mean he doesn't get initiative? Nope. It just means that he also gets a circumstance modifier to his initiative, a -2; this 4 point swing has suddenly granted the wizard a mechanical equivalent of Improved Initiative, and if his Dexterity is worth anything (not to mention if he also has Improved Initiative, invaluable to anyone that likes to just get the jump on anyone anyway), odds are very good he will get the drop on the messenger. Oh, yes; the initiative modifiers would also be applicable in the assassination scenario. There's no surprise round, because everyone's aware of each other, but because the attempt is completely unexpected (with the rare chance that the bodyguard(s) just don't trust anybody, even close family), the assassin will get his initiative bonus while everyone unexpecting will get their penalty. A DM could even go so far as to rule (I know I probably would) that in a completely non-combative environment (such as a dinner table in an estate that isn't routinely sieged), if no one makes any extra attempt to not be unaware (such as a viceroy fully expecting his bodyguards to worry about it), that everyone flat-footed is also helpless, and so the assassin, if his initiative count came up first, could attempt his coup de grace.
kenichi 05-27-05, 01:30 PM	I think a clear way of resolving the why doesn't the person who decides to attack go first situation, is that when a character's player decides or declares his intention to attack or cast a spell (inititate combat), then initiative is rolled. It is very possible that someone could sense (magical or mundane methods (Sense Motive, Spot)) that the person is about to take hostile action and by the second persons amazing speed and reflexes (i.e. initiative score) actually take action before the one who inititated the fight could actually do what he intended.
OamuTheMonk 05-27-05, 05:37 PM	...in a recent thread on the boards, people are questioning the validity of Rule Zero. I find this disturbing. It seems that if there ever was a rule that no one could argue with, it was the rule that said, essentially, "These rules are not perfect. If you need to 'break' them to keep the game fun, then by all means, do so." I was one of those people. I'm starting to rethink my position.
OamuTheMonk 05-27-05, 05:44 PM	No, you commit first. If the other guy is expecting you to do something hostile, he may well land the first blow (win initiative). This statement is crucial. I think in all of my examples, I have made it quite clear that the target of the attack had no such expectations. I even used the same sort of reasoning when describing a possible interaction between the Fighter and the Bartender. You seem like you don't agree with my stance, but I pretty much agree with yours. Weird.
OamuTheMonk 05-27-05, 06:00 PM	Interesting, and slightly amazing, discussion; amazing in the fact there seem to be some that demand their views be accepted and listened to fairly exclusively, while simultaneously demanding dissenting views be dismissed. I can't tell if you mean me or not. In any case, you, sir, are the first naysayer to offer an actual alternative to dealing with complicated grey-area initiative problems. Circumstance bonuses/penalties are undoubtably a fair, consistant, and reasonable way to legislate these matters. I will not be going that route. Why? It's complicated. If you have to apply circumstance bonuses/penalties to everyone who could possibly become involved in a combat (let's use the bartender example), every serving wench, passerby, town lush, bouncer, rowdy Dwarven miner, and so on...just to have a pretty good idea that the fighter is going to hit the bartender before the bartender could respond...then a surprise round for the fighter would probably serve the exact same function without all the rigamarole. It's not game-breaking. It's not going to give anyone a huge advantage over anyone else. It's not even going to happen very often. Surprise round is the way to go. Oh, and digoraccoon's game works exactly the same way the two I play in work (One as DM, the other as a player).
Law S 05-27-05, 07:02 PM	It's complicated. Actually, the complication you imply is a needless one that therefore makes it inapplicable; see below. If you have to apply circumstance bonuses/penalties to everyone who could possibly become involved in a combat (let's use the bartender example), every serving wench, passerby, town lush, bouncer, rowdy Dwarven miner, and so on...just to have a pretty good idea that the fighter is going to hit the bartender before the bartender could respond...then a surprise round for the fighter would probably serve the exact same function without all the rigamarole. It's not game-breaking. It's not going to give anyone a huge advantage over anyone else. It's not even going to happen very often. The problem with bringing up that you need to check initiative for everyone in the room and surprise round "solving" that... What happens after the surprise round passes and you move to normal initiative? You're back at square one which was supposedly bypassed. Another important factor to consider when handing out modifiers or anything related to an encounter; it only applies to those that become involved, either through their own intentions to join, or by others' intentions to pull them into it. The crowd, at large, probably wants nothing to do with the fight; in fact, they may break and run from the tavern area. Even if not, as long as they don't get involved, they're irrelevant; when they do get involved, they immediately gain an initiative count, and if it's already passed for this round, then they lose that turn. Beyond that, this is where quick approximations save a lot of needless headache (unless there's a lapse in the notion we want to find an easy but fair method of handling situations without an absolutely slavish devotion to the rules). For the crowd, quick matter of averages, because their stats just don't matter; 10 on the initiative check, Dex mod (or 10 if you don't feel like looking it up, leaving no modifier), and that's that. The crowd, as a whole, acts on initiative count 10 and runs. Any standouts in the crowd will probably have outside adjustments that tell you on the fly when they act, if differently (Improved Initiative, Dex mods), so the assassin scouting the PCs may inadvertantly draw attention in his quick attempt to head out the door before the authorities arrive. Basically, sometimes things don't matter, but they also do. (Such as needing to know if anyone's still sitting at the bar when a fireball goes off at count 9.) If that's the case, you still don't have to give these things your full attention, just enough to keep things plausible. Surprise round is the way to go. If your PCs, as a whole, accept arbitrarily unfair situations. The PCs may not want the kind of trouble picking a fight with the potentially beloved local bartender could provoke, and letting their "surprise" become reflected by initiative modifiers to either or both sides still gives them the opportunity to read what the fighter's doing and intervene before he drops the local constabulary on the lot.
OamuTheMonk 05-27-05, 09:35 PM	I don't consider letting someone lie in the bed they have made for themselves unfair. Assuming that a hypothetical PC wants to attack a beloved local figure, it's not my job to arrange things so it can't happen. Nonsense. As to your assertion that initiative having to be rolled after the surprise round leads to the same complication...No, no, it doesn't. There is no need to apply any circumstance modifiers to anyone's initiative roll at that point. The fiddling about with circumstance modifiers being the complication that I objected to. My point is this. A DM can legislate these situations many, many different ways. You can hold fast to the notion that "aware" is the most important word in the Core Rulebooks, leading to stilted, video-game style combats where the good guys all approach from the right, the bad guys from the left, and combat starts when they get within 20' of each other; You can do things my way, and create a more organic style of play, where logic, common sense, and strategic thinking are rewarded instead of quashed; or you can do things your way, where you fiddle with a lot of minor details in order to get roughly the same result I do, in only thrice the time.
Law S 05-27-05, 10:25 PM	I don't consider letting someone lie in the bed they have made for themselves unfair. Assuming that a hypothetical PC wants to attack a beloved local figure, it's not my job to arrange things so it can't happen. Nonsense. For one, it takes one consideration; is this single fighter still the one that gets the surprise round, before anyone can react? If so, then, yes, you're letting one PC's rash actions affect all of the PCs by association... Even if they all fend for themselves and try to disavow any association with the PC's actions, since we're being realistic and not pulling any punches, this shouldn't matter; they came into town together, and even if only one of them 'snapped' unprovoked, it's not like the others can't. That's undue tainting by association, just because the PCs could not react to the absolute 'surprise' in time and possibly interrupt their companion before he got them all in trouble, because it wasn't a matter of him probably getting to act faster than anyone could have a chance to interrupt him with, he simply got to act, before a chance existed to stop his further harm. Yes, this is arbitrarily unfair; also to the NPCs sitting at the bar that shouldn't be expecting an attack, but just might jump up to try and hold down the fighter when he draws back to take a swing. Very basic game design principle; try to grant the smallest benefit that will still have a measurable impact for what had to be done to receive it. And an ad hoc DM needs to be, amongst other things, a fairly good designer him or herself; while the surprise round mechanic currently exists and seems to be easily applicable to a situation where a side is caught "off guard", it's too powerful for the situation, and unrealistic. As I've stated before, a matter which seems gleefully discarded... Will the other parties around the "surprising" character, who were aware of him enough to be able to watch and/or hear his action, going to just sit there agape the 3-4 seconds it takes him to perform said action? Or is his reward for acting so unexpectedly that time briefly stops for him and he outwardly moves like a flash to get what he intends to do done...? Yes, I can see how you can dismiss those concerns as 'nonsense'. Truly, I can. As to your assertion that initiative having to be rolled after the surprise round leads to the same complication...No, no, it doesn't. There is no need to apply any circumstance modifiers to anyone's initiative roll at that point. The fiddling about with circumstance modifiers being the complication that I objected to. That's your prerogative; to make trivial matters "matter". Until the PCs want to drag these NPCs into a fight, or any of them have any particular desire to stick around and hash it out with the PCs, what they want to do and when they do it is completely irrelevant, so the problem of their circumstance is pretty much inapplicable unless the DM wishes to make it so. And the most obvious circumstance would only be to allow the NPCs at the bar and within 10 ft. of the fighter be paying enough attention to even notice, but still get their penalties. Everyone else would probably be rightfully unaware until it happened. My point is this. A DM can legislate these situations many, many different ways. You can hold fast to the notion that "aware" is the most important word in the Core Rulebooks, leading to stilted, video-game style combats where the good guys all approach from the right, the bad guys from the left, and combat starts when they get within 20' of each other; You can do things my way, and create a more organic style of play, where logic, common sense, and strategic thinking are rewarded instead of quashed; or you can do things your way, where you fiddle with a lot of minor details in order to get roughly the same result I do, in only thrice the time. Careful; that is a very thin patch to skate onto. A declaration of ego has no true merit, though it is, at least, one of the few points in this discussion to finally be worth dismissing.
The Man from Uncle 05-28-05, 01:16 AM	Arrowhen, the 3 lines I wrote can be summed up as follows: Repetition Truth Sarcasm Irony See how that works? ;) Anyway, I want to see if we can get this topic to page 3. I've directed people from other threads to come in and just observe this discussion. I am wondering if aftwards we can get onto such epicly testing questions as 'how to determine lock DCs?' and 'when do horse shoes need replacing?'.
boredgremlin 05-28-05, 02:54 AM	Lol lock DC's are easy. They are 1 higher then the thief can ever roll. And horseshoes need replacing one day before any big horse chase you have planned for the group.
Thoronmir 05-28-05, 08:33 AM	This is the problem. You, Ginger, and Thoronmir before you, are actively ignoring the fact that combat does not begin until someone actively does something.And the RAW makes it quite clear that everyone who is aware of what's going on gets to roll Initiative at that point.Two commoners sitting in a small room with a locked door are both aware of each other. They have been stuck in the room for days, and they have not been unaware of each other the whole time, except while sleeping. Both are hungry, smelly, and thirsty. The only thing in the room is them. Days and days go by. Both are slowly dying of hunger and thirst. No one speaks for days. Finally, as both commoners sit across from each other, both staring blankly, one, in a frenzy of hunger and a desperation, flings himself onto his fellow prisoner... The attacker. Surprise Round?Like every situation, it depends on whether both parties were aware of a potential threat from one another. The answer to that question depends on variables omitted from your hypothetical.Under many circumstances, combat is initiated by a single character. His actions provide the impetus for combat to start. Under these circumstances, it runs counter to the events for anyone else to go before him in the initiative order. You cant unring a bell, you cant unfire a gun, and if you're the guy who throws the punch that starts the brawl, the brawl cannot begin before you throw the punch. You. Go. First.Not according to the RAW.You can read and re-read the PHB and DMG and SRD as much as you want, and you can say (if you believe it) that the rules comprised therein cover every possible eventuality, every possible permutation of events that could occur in gameplay, but you would be wrong.You've yet to posit a scenario not covered by the RAW. If a potential combatant is caught unaware of the threat, he is Surprised (per the RAW) and his opponent gains a Surprise Round. It's always a DM's judgment call as to whether someone (PC or NPC) is "aware" within the meaning of the RAW. The RAW helps by allowing checks for Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, etc., to resolve that question. But you're adopting a quite rigid view that the victim is never aware of a potential threat until that threat is realized.Knowing the RAW and being wrong is still being wrong.If we're not debating the rules of this game, what's the point of this discussion? Your posts seem to imply that I (and those who agree with me) never make us the Surprise rules in the RAW. If that's what you think, you're wrong. If you think the RAW doesn't accurately reflect the real world, my best response is my sig. In this game, the rules sometimes compromise "realism" for simplicity. Like I've said, anyone is free to house-rule a different system if they prefer more "realism" in the combat mechanics.
kliate 05-28-05, 10:06 AM	The figure continues to approach. Fearing hostile intent, the wizard instantly takes his spell component into hand. As he utters the incantation that will create a massive flaming orb.... (Rolls dice) the figure realizes that the wizard means him harm. Roll initiative. Now, the question is what should be rolled. A stranger walking down the street might not well know that the wizard took out a spell component. He could be counting coins, after all. Perhaps a spot check would be in order? Still, spot doesn't quite seem to fit it. An orc seeing a wizard draw out a piece of filth won't always know that he's about to be struck dead by fire. As such, I would propose that such hostile actions be measured against by a sense motive check. Party members may eventually learn to anticipate when certain characters are about to start combat in such a manner and gain bonuses to their checks. The stranger, however, will likely be caught off guard. Consider the sorceror who wants to strike a local baron dead with a shocking grasp spell. He plays it friendly, making his bluff checks to approach the baron in conversation. Midway through the conversation, he begins uttering a spell component. Anyone who can beat the sorceror's bluff check would realize that he has hostile plans and be able to act in the surprise round. I suggest that in any situation where two or more groups (or single indivuduals) are aware of each other but not of one another's intentions, the individual who starts a hostile action will roll a bluff check against every one else's sense motive (including their team mates). Those who beat the bluff check result with their sense motive check get to act in the suprise round. The rest are dumbfounded until their initiative in the first full round of combat after the surprise round.
Dragon4217 05-28-05, 12:02 PM	Repetition I agree with anyone who agrees with me Truth Awareness is clearly defined in the form of either a spot, listen, or sense motive check. That's how you determine if there is a surprise round...anyone unaware is surprised, everyone who's aware is not, and either goes in the surprise round, or (if everyone makes the spot/listen) there is no surprise round. Period. Sarcasm I would hope the Viceroy's guards would have good Sense Motive and Spot checks, so they know what's going on in the surprise round, because they're the Viceroys guards--that's their job. Irony If the (possibly foriegn) man fails his sense motive (i'd give it a DC 0, 10 if he really doesn't understand common), he is unaware, if he makes the sense motive and doesn't stop, he's obviously hostile, and therefore ready to act in accordance with the prophecy...I mean wizard. BTW, the irony in this situation is that the man (a high level wizard/monk) really does understand common, but is pretending not to, so he can get the surprise round on the PC's who fail the sense motive on his bluff to cast haste while running, then do a flying-kick-full-of-awesomeness-charge/flurry-take-out-all-the-PCs-in-one-round move. See how that works? ;) Anyway, I want to see if we can get this topic to page 3. I've directed people from other threads to come in and just observe this discussion. I am wondering if aftwards we can get onto such epicly testing questions as 'how to determine lock DCs?' and 'when do horse shoes need replacing?'. Lock DC = 15...but triggers the trap (Search/Disable DC 35) with a +17 to hit, and does 1d6 Con damage from poison (Fort DC 25)...because the rogue has evasion...you can't make reflex based traps. :D Horses should need their shoes replacing whenever the PCs have too much money...and it costs around 8000gp per shoe, because the only ones available are +2 horseshoes...but they really aren't, it's Nystul's Magic Aura..."and of course if you dispel them they won't glow like magic"...
The Man from Uncle 05-28-05, 02:04 PM	Dragon4217 - 'I agree with anyone who agrees with me' Or anyone who plays by the same rules I do. Dragon4217 - 'If the (possibly foriegn) man fails his sense motive (i'd give it a DC 0, 10 if he really doesn't understand common), he is unaware, if he makes the sense motive and doesn't stop, he's obviously hostile...' Or he is just interested in what you plan to do next. Dragon4217 - 'the irony in this situation is that the man (a high level wizard/monk) really does understand common, but is pretending not to...' Close. He does understand while pretending not to, but the ironic part is that he doesn't care if the PC's no it or not.
OamuTheMonk 05-29-05, 05:26 AM	Hold this thread, as I walk away.
Arrowhen 05-29-05, 06:43 AM	I will follow...
Duvanok 05-29-05, 10:59 PM	You people should all be arrested for animal cruelty. . . I've never seen a dead horse beaten so savagely.